A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!

[wonga66]

If Haredim are set to become the majority in Israel by 2030 http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/secular-jews-may-be-minority-in-israeli-schools-by-2030-1.277177 then by 2060 the chilloni Jew in Israel, with their negative birthrate and maybe even outside of Israel, will be extinct!

What will life be like in 50 years in a 100% black-coated peyos down to their knees full bearded non-Kahanist ultra-Orthodox Haredi Jewish world?!

[Ben m]

If Haredim are set to become the majority in Israel by 2030 http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/secular-jews-may-be-minority-in-israeli-schools-by-2030-1.277177 then by 2060 the chilloni Jew in Israel, with their negative birthrate and maybe even outside of Israel, will be extinct!

What will life be like in 50 years in a 100% black-coated peyos down to their knees non-Kahanist strictly Orthodox Haredi Jewish world?!

i would run away at the very day they would become a majority.i don't want anything imposed on me.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

If Haredim are set to become the majority in Israel by 2030 http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/secular-jews-may-be-minority-in-israeli-schools-by-2030-1.277177 then by 2060 the chilloni Jew in Israel, with their negative birthrate and maybe even outside of Israel, will be extinct!

What will life be like in 50 years in a 100% black-coated peyos down to their knees non-Kahanist strictly Orthodox Haredi Jewish world?!

i would run away at the very day the Jews would become a majority.i don't want anything imposed on me.

No one needs you here anyway. Btw, most Haredim do not believe in forcibly imposing the Jewish law on "Secular" Jews because that would only cause hatred (Mitzvoht better come with meaning).

[TheCoon]

I'm curious as to why the Haredim feel that type of dress is considered "Jewish". No Jews in the Bible dressed anything like that. What is the history behind this kind of dress? To an outsider like myself it seems more Eastern-European than Jewish.

I know Chaim has made comments about how these Jews dress like Polish Jew-haters of the past and I'm looking to learn more about it.

[Ben m]

I'm curious as to why the Haredim feel that type of dress is considered "Jewish". No Jews in the Bible dressed anything like that. What is the history behind this kind of dress? To an outsider like myself it seems more Eastern-European than Jewish.

I know Chaim has made comments about how these Jews dress like Polish Jew-haters of the past and I'm looking to learn more about it.

yes.this is in order to preserve the 19th century eastern european lstyle of life.

[Ben m]

If Haredim are set to become the majority in Israel by 2030 http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/secular-jews-may-be-minority-in-israeli-schools-by-2030-1.277177 then by 2060 the chilloni Jew in Israel, with their negative birthrate and maybe even outside of Israel, will be extinct!

What will life be like in 50 years in a 100% black-coated peyos down to their knees non-Kahanist strictly Orthodox Haredi Jewish world?!

i would run away at the very day the Jews would become a majority.i don't want anything imposed on me.

No one needs you here anyway. Btw, most Haredim do not believe in forcibly imposing the Jewish law on "Secular" Jews because that would only cause hatred (Mitzvoht better come with meaning).

i don't think i asked you to tell me if i need to stay in israel or not.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

If Haredim are set to become the majority in Israel by 2030 http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/secular-jews-may-be-minority-in-israeli-schools-by-2030-1.277177 then by 2060 the chilloni Jew in Israel, with their negative birthrate and maybe even outside of Israel, will be extinct!

What will life be like in 50 years in a 100% black-coated peyos down to their knees full bearded non-Kahanist ultra-Orthodox Haredi Jewish world?!

Perhaps you neglect science or rational thought when you propose impossible future scenarios as an envisioned certainty.   What a worthless post.   Chiloni Jews extinct?   You ever travel in Israel?  Or you stay in a ghetto and have no idea what other places and cities are like?   Get real dude.

Btw I've seen maybe one or two people with payos down to their knees before.   So why would suddenly all haredim have payos down to their knees.    You are obsessed with hyperbole and fantasy.   Tone down the imagination and embrace reality - don't fall into the trap that Adam HaRishon fell into.

[New Yorker]

I'm curious as to why the Haredim feel that type of dress is considered "Jewish". No Jews in the Bible dressed anything like that. What is the history behind this kind of dress? To an outsider like myself it seems more Eastern-European than Jewish.

I know Chaim has made comments about how these Jews dress like Polish Jew-haters of the past and I'm looking to learn more about it.

Yeah, the mode of dress puzzles me too. Don't know where in Judaism it's a rule to wear a black coat and fedora, I know for a fact that Moses and the Jews of the Exodus weren't wearing that stuff, and I'll go with that as a guide for myself, but whatever, if they want to look like a 19th century funeral director that is their prerogative. I do dislike the fact that this is the image of what a Jew is to a lot of people, makes us look weird.

[White Israelite]

I'm curious as to why the Haredim feel that type of dress is considered "Jewish". No Jews in the Bible dressed anything like that. What is the history behind this kind of dress? To an outsider like myself it seems more Eastern-European than Jewish.

I know Chaim has made comments about how these Jews dress like Polish Jew-haters of the past and I'm looking to learn more about it.

Yeah, the mode of dress puzzles me too. Don't know where in Judaism it's a rule to wear a black coat and fedora, I know for a fact that Moses and the Jews of the Exodus weren't wearing that stuff, and I'll go with that as a guide for myself, but whatever, if they want to look like a 19th century funeral director that is their prerogative. I do dislike the fact that this is the image of what a Jew is to a lot of people, makes us look weird.

100 percent agreed, no one in my family ever dressed like that nor did any of my relatives. I've had proselytes that began dressing that way say that I need to be more Jewish and dress like them, I told them "I don't know too many Sephardic Jews that dress this way". I associate that style of dress with anti-zionists and neuterai karta. I will never dress that way. I would prefer to wear ancient Israelite clothing.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I'm curious as to why the Haredim feel that type of dress is considered "Jewish". No Jews in the Bible dressed anything like that. What is the history behind this kind of dress? To an outsider like myself it seems more Eastern-European than Jewish.

I know Chaim has made comments about how these Jews dress like Polish Jew-haters of the past and I'm looking to learn more about it.

Yeah, the mode of dress puzzles me too. Don't know where in Judaism it's a rule to wear a black coat and fedora, 

It's not a rule.  The haredim wear that because they've made it as a style for themselves.  It's "cool" to have a fedora like in secular society it's "cool" for a young professional to wear a peacoat or for a businessman to begin to wear a suit and fancy tie.   The haredim have their own social mores like any other group.      Anyone who claims this attire is based in religious law is a charlatan or ignorant (or both).

I know for a fact that Moses and the Jews of the Exodus weren't wearing that stuff, and I'll go with that as a guide for myself, but whatever, if they want to look like a 19th century funeral director that is their prerogative. I do dislike the fact that this is the image of what a Jew is to a lot of people, makes us look weird.

I also do not like the style haredim wear, especially the hat which I associate with the mafia, but dressing like an ancient Judean would make us look equally "weird" in the eyes of the "modern man" of western and/or secular society.  And who cares if they think we look weird?    We have a Jewish culture, just like they celebrate their african culture, or their italian culture, etc etc.   

But if you're going to reject the haredi style of dress based on Moshe, are you equally going to adopt the Judean style dress based on what the Torah, Tanach, and Talmud describe?    As you're living in New York (I'm basing that on your name), I doubt that.   For me, if I end up living in a settlement God willing, I would love to adopt the traditional Jewish attire.

[White Israelite]

Where can one buy Israelite clothing? I would like to buy some myself.

[muman613]

I'm curious as to why the Haredim feel that type of dress is considered "Jewish". No Jews in the Bible dressed anything like that. What is the history behind this kind of dress? To an outsider like myself it seems more Eastern-European than Jewish.

I know Chaim has made comments about how these Jews dress like Polish Jew-haters of the past and I'm looking to learn more about it.

Yeah, the mode of dress puzzles me too. Don't know where in Judaism it's a rule to wear a black coat and fedora, I know for a fact that Moses and the Jews of the Exodus weren't wearing that stuff, and I'll go with that as a guide for myself, but whatever, if they want to look like a 19th century funeral director that is their prerogative. I do dislike the fact that this is the image of what a Jew is to a lot of people, makes us look weird.

100 percent agreed, no one in my family ever dressed like that nor did any of my relatives. I've had proselytes that began dressing that way say that I need to be more Jewish and dress like them, I told them "I don't know too many Sephardic Jews that dress this way". I associate that style of dress with anti-zionists and neuterai karta. I will never dress that way. I would prefer to wear ancient Israelite clothing.

WI,

What kind of BS are you spouting now?

Chabad and Breslov both dress in the Haredi style and they are very pro-zionist... Please don't speak Lashon Hara against such righteous Jews as Chabad or Breslov, thank you..

[New Yorker]

My point wasn't to say we should dress like the Jews of the days of Moses!  My point was that the Jews of the days of Moses dressed appropriately for the society and time they were living in, back then EVERYBODY dressed that way, today, it's suites, and Jeans, etc, and that's appropriate for the 21st century.

[wonga66]

Chabad and Breslov are most definitely not "pro-Zionist".

What they have is considerably more ahavas yisroel for irreligious Jews than other Haredim. Many of their ranks are filled with former irreligious Jews.

And unlike other Haredi  groups, Chabad and Breslov oppose "Land for Peace", but solely on halachic grounds of pikuach nefesh, not for any Zionist, Biblical or Kahanist reasons.

[muman613]

Chabad and Breslov are most definitely not "pro-Zionist".

What they have is considerably more ahavas yisroel for irreligious Jews than other Haredim. Many of their ranks are filled with former irreligious Jews.

And unlike other Haredi  groups, Chabad and Breslov oppose "Land for Peace", but solely on halachic grounds of pikuach nefesh, not for any Zionist, Biblical or Kahanist reasons.

Both are certainly not anti-Zionist... Simply go to either of their webpages and witness their support for the state of Israel... I don't know how you can speak against these two wonderful Jewish groups. Both of them do a great deal to keep Jews Jewish and keep the Jews coming to Israel.

While I agree they would not support some of the ideals of Kahanism this is no reason to call them anti-zionist. Saying that is certainly not true. Also I find it odd that you say they are not pro-Israel because of the Torah. I attend many Chabad Shabbatons and a lot of discussion is how we should get Jews to go to Israel.

wonga666, you always have Lashon Hara to speak about every Jew don't you?

[wonga66]

With Haredim having 8-20 children per family, and the Chilonim having 1-2 per family, ceteris paribus, the future statistically should inexorably belong to the former. But that's a big ceteris paribus! And yes: I live in Israel, where in the last few years there has been a noticeable massive increase in the packs and packs of roving under-20 Haredi male and female youths during bein hazmanim all over Israel. Whereas the under-20 chilloni youth numbers are percebtibly on the wane.

Perhaps you neglect science or rational thought when you propose impossible future scenarios as an envisioned certainty.   What a worthless post.   Chiloni Jews extinct?   You ever travel in Israel?  Or you stay in a ghetto and have no idea what other places and cities are like?   Get real dude.

[/quote]

[muman613]

With Haredim having 8-20 children per family, and the Chilonim having 1-2 per family, ceteris paribus, the future statistically should inexorably belong to the former. But that's a big ceteris paribus! And yes: I live in Israel, where in the last few years there has been a noticeable massive increase in the packs and packs of roving under-20 Haredi male and female youths during bein hazmanim all over Israel. Whereas as the under-20 chilloni youth numbers are percebtibly on the wane.

Perhaps you neglect science or rational thought when you propose impossible future scenarios as an envisioned certainty.   What a worthless post.   Chiloni Jews extinct?   You ever travel in Israel?  Or you stay in a ghetto and have no idea what other places and cities are like?   Get real dude.

[/quote]

Mazel Tov! So much for the demographic timebomb...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

With Haredim having 8-20 children per family,

Fantasy.   Do you ever actually consult real statistics?  Why do you engage in this silly hyperbole?

Averages are closer to 5.

and the Chilonim having 1-2 per family

1-2 is not 0.

And yes: I live in Israel, where in the last few years there has been a noticeable massive increase in the packs and packs of roving under-20 Haredi male and female youths during bein hazmanim all over Israel. 

  That's funny because I didn't ask if you lived in Israel, I knew that.   What I asked was, do you live in a ghetto and do you occasionally leave the ghetto to experience and observe other parts of the country.   Obviously not if you could purvey this sheker.

Whereas the under-20 chilloni youth numbers are percebtibly on the wane.

Really you've been chronicling the night life in tel aviv and other secular places and determined this is so statistically?  Or you wish for it and heard someone say it unfounded in your neighborhood once?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Now if you went and witnessed an inbreeding Arab village like my former-far-leftist friend did, you would see what birthrate is all about.    The arabs aren't going away, and neither are secular Jews or any demographic group.   It's time to be realistic about the future.

[wonga66]

Where did I say that they were "anti-Zionist"? Not being "pro-Zionist" is not the same as being "anti-Zionist"! However, the 6th Lubavitcher Rebbe, like his contemporary rabbis, strongly opposed a Zionist state in the 30s. But once the State of Israel came in to being, Chabad strongly supported the yishuv, on grounds of ahavas yisroel. The 7th Lubavitcher Rebbe said in 1992 that he would be in the forefront of fighting Land for Peace, but he wrote that it would be on Halachic Shulhan Aruch grounds, and that he would be bring no Tenach verses! That is where he differed from Rav Kahane, whose Zionism was based on pure Tenach!

Both are certainly not anti-Zionist... Simply go to either of their webpages and witness their support for the state of Israel... I don't know how you can speak against these two wonderful Jewish groups. Both of them do a great deal to keep Jews Jewish and keep the Jews coming to Israel.

While I agree they would not support some of the ideals of Kahanism this is no reason to call them anti-zionist. Saying that is certainly not true. Also I find it odd that you say they are not pro-Israel because of the Torah. I attend many Chabad Shabbatons and a lot of discussion is how we should get Jews to go to Israel.

[wonga66]

Historically, 1-2 children is not enough to sustain a society, which with such a low birthrate always go in to terminal decline. If things remain the same (which in Israel is unlikely!), then just like in 2050 the whites in the UK will be a minority, so too will the chillonim be in Israel. And by 2100, the secular Jew as we know them, will have disappeared from the world, through assimilation and low or even zero or even negative birth rate. Jewish numbers are only being sustained by the Haredim and knitted-kippot.

1-2 is not 0.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Where did I say that they were "anti-Zionist"? Not being "pro-Zionist" is not the same as being "anti-Zionist"! However, the 6th Lubavitcher Rebbe, like his contemporary rabbis, strongly opposed a Zionist state in the 30s. But once the State of Israel came in to being, Chabad strongly supported the yishuv, on grounds of ahavas yisroel. The 7th Lubavitcher Rebbe said in 1992 that he would be in the forefront of fighting Land for Peace, but he wrote that it would be on Halachic Shulhan Aruch grounds, and that he would be bring no Tenach verses! That is where he differed from Rav Kahane, whose Zionism was based on pure Tenach!

More silliness.  Are you suggesting that Rabbi Kahane didn't have halacha to back his opinions?   Absolutely absurd.  He said about Kach, we are not merely activists or a political movement, we are first and foremost a halachic movement.  A Jewish movement.    

Halacha as we all know is not drawn from Tanach.   So to what did he refer when he mentioned Halacha.  Give me a break with this nonsense.   You are just trying to promote a strange hashkafa that gives credence to the haredi point of view about the state of Israel.    Are you really suggesting that zionism can only be promoted on grounds of ahavath Yisrael and that no other mitzvoth or halachoth are involved?    What utter nonsense.   And to say this in the name of the Lubavitcher Rebbe!      Even if what you said was true, why would Ahavath Yisrael override the rest of halacha if halacha is really against zionism?    What a pointless argument I've now entangled myself in.   The bottom line is you are not consulting statistical analyses and you are making baseless claims and speculations that no thinking person can accept.   Your "dream" that chilonim disappear is like a peyote-induced hallucination.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

then by 2060 the chilloni Jew in Israel, with their negative birthrate and maybe even outside of Israel, will be extinct!

And by 2100, the chilloni Jew as we know them, will have disappeared from the world.

    Tell me more.   Will Alice and the mad hatter be there too?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

And don't forget.  A percentage of haredim go off the derech unfortunately, so the "ranks" of the chilonim are replenished not just with their having kids.

Don't forget also about the new law which enables ex-pats to vote.   There will be more laws like it coming soon to an israeli regime near you.   Because they will do whatever it takes to counteract whatever change in the demographics actually does occur.  Whether it's legal, whether it's just or not.

[wonga66]

When it came to Hilchos Eretz Yisroel, Rav Kahane was like a fish in water. Especially the Halachos of how to handle goyim in Israel.

But he was primarily a Tenach Man, and would bring clear pesukim from the Chumash to back the Jewish right to the Land. No one today quotes pesukim.

And that is why Hashem has raised an Amolekite Ahmadinejad Persian neo-Haman: to warn and prompt the Jew that if he doesn't fulfil his tafkid of quoting pesukim from the Chumash, the Third Jewish commonwealth is in jeopardy!

The rabbis say that the gentiles crave to hear the Dvar Hashem from the Jew. That is the purpose of the Jew's existence: "This people I have created for Me, that they relate My praise" (Yeshaya 43). When the gentiles fail to hear that Dvar, they subconsciously and even unwittingly go in to a rage at the Jew's failure. A rage sufficient to try & exterminate the Jews!