Author Topic: An ethical dilemma  (Read 2889 times)

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Offline Masha

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An ethical dilemma
« on: June 15, 2010, 01:27:22 PM »
This is a hypothetical question. I hope it will not become of immediate concern. Suppose a loved one has some ideas about his/her funeral that you disagree with. For example, the idea of cremation and/or organ donation does not sit well with you at all. Do you respect your loved one's wishes or do you do what you feel is right?

Offline arksis

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Re: An ethical dilemma
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2010, 04:27:07 PM »
Personally, I would respect their wishes. But death is VERY emotional and if most of you are in agreement on what to do, then that person would never know, would they?  ;D
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Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: An ethical dilemma
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2010, 05:12:40 PM »
If it is really in my control to do either way, I would not respect the wishes.   However, take that with a grain of salt because I want to consult a rav first to ask if "last wishes" or "will" of the deceased has any place in the halacha and whether that would impact this to allow one to override restrictions for the burial of the dead.  I tend to think it wouldn't be relevant (how can a person "wish" to make other relatives violate God by burying them in a manner against the Torah and why would those wishes override halachic obligations on the people doing the burying?).   So you raise an interesting question, I will hopefully look into it.

Offline IsraelForever

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Re: An ethical dilemma
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2010, 12:55:36 AM »
Do you what you feel is right.  But ask yourself this question: "Will I continue to feel it's right as time passes?  Or will I late regret not following the wishes of your loved one?"  My feeling is that if you feel that you'll never regret it, then do what you feel is right.  You'll have to live with the decision, not the deceased.  Besides, the person may not have been of sound mind before dying -- due to pain killers, etc.


Offline Ben m

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Re: An ethical dilemma
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2010, 01:42:54 AM »
of course i would respect her last wish.guys what are you thinking? to cheat your loved one? i realy can't understand your definition of love.
enemies:negroes,musulmans and commies/liberals.
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Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: An ethical dilemma
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2010, 02:32:50 AM »
of course i would respect her last wish.guys what are you thinking? to cheat your loved one? i realy can't understand your definition of love.

If your "loved one" requested you to commit suicide, would you do it?

In what way does this classify as "cheating" a person?

Offline Ben m

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Re: An ethical dilemma
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2010, 03:25:05 AM »
of course i would respect her last wish.guys what are you thinking? to cheat your loved one? i realy can't understand your definition of love.

If your "loved one" requested you to commit suicide, would you do it?

In what way does this classify as "cheating" a person?
1) no.in any case i will still love myself much more than i would love my wife.
2) my definition of cheating is to betray his trust
enemies:negroes,musulmans and commies/liberals.
alleis:israel,united states,canada,european union,greater serbia,russia,australia and new zealand and japan/south korea and india.togheter we maight win this war.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: An ethical dilemma
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2010, 04:12:26 AM »
of course i would respect her last wish.guys what are you thinking? to cheat your loved one? i realy can't understand your definition of love.

If your "loved one" requested you to commit suicide, would you do it?

In what way does this classify as "cheating" a person?
1) no.in any case i will still love myself much more than i would love my wife.

Then why would you commit a sin because your wife asked you to?   You are hurting yourself and going against God.

Quote
2) my definition of cheating is to betray his trust

How does this involve trust?   I don't think a promise was ever made.   Then again, even if there was a promise, the trust is never violated if the person is already deceased.   They passed away trusting you.    Once dead, do they now lose trust upon "seeing" what you do?    If so, you believe in something supernatural afterall.

Offline Masha

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Re: An ethical dilemma
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2010, 02:23:34 PM »
If it is really in my control to do either way, I would not respect the wishes.   However, take that with a grain of salt because I want to consult a rav first to ask if "last wishes" or "will" of the deceased has any place in the halacha and whether that would impact this to allow one to override restrictions for the burial of the dead.  I tend to think it wouldn't be relevant (how can a person "wish" to make other relatives violate G-d by burying them in a manner against the Torah and why would those wishes override halachic obligations on the people doing the burying?).   So you raise an interesting question, I will hopefully look into it.

Yes, that's my concern. What if cremating a loved one would prevent the resurrection of the body when the Messiah comes? Can I disregard what is right and jeopardise their life after death? On the other hand, can I disregard a person's last will?

Offline Ari Ben-Canaan

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Re: An ethical dilemma
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2010, 07:21:07 PM »
Depends on the wish.  My Mom told me as the oldest son that I will need to see to the details of her funeral one day, and that she wants to be cremated.  I told her I would not comply because Jews do not cremate themselves, it is against our way [Jews are buried in no-frills inexpensive pine boxes].  She agreed with my view and changed her wishes.  She said she wants a few carnations at her funeral because that is her favorite flower.  Flowers are against tradition but I said, "yes, of course", because that's what she wants and there is no real harm or law against flowers [donations in the name of the deceased are more traditional because their benevolence continues to live on, while flowers die and add death to the death.].

There are different views on the halakcha of organ donation, or donating one's body for science.  Some Rabbis say yes [if the idea is to save a life as one's last act], others no.  I would ask your family member's Rabbi, or your Rabbi, for the halakcha on this if you need an answer.  It's a good question to raise.

I think it's better, and more moral, to disappoint a family member than break halakcha [especially at the end of life, why attach sin to a departing soul?].
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Offline Rubystars

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Re: An ethical dilemma
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2010, 07:23:27 PM »
1) no.in any case i will still love myself much more than i would love my wife.

I hope you never get married with that attitude.

Offline Ben m

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Re: An ethical dilemma
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2010, 06:09:11 AM »
1) no.in any case i will still love myself much more than i would love my wife.

I hope you never get married with that attitude.

i am sorry but i love myself more than any person on earth.
enemies:negroes,musulmans and commies/liberals.
alleis:israel,united states,canada,european union,greater serbia,russia,australia and new zealand and japan/south korea and india.togheter we maight win this war.

Offline HiWarp

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Re: An ethical dilemma
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2010, 06:15:28 AM »
1) no.in any case i will still love myself much more than i would love my wife.

I hope you never get married with that attitude.

i am sorry but i love myself more than any person on earth.
So, if you ever got married and you and your wife were confronted by a knife wielding maniac, you would point to her, yell out "kill her but don't hurt me", and run away like a little girl?
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny;
when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”
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Offline Ben m

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Re: An ethical dilemma
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2010, 06:29:39 AM »
1) no.in any case i will still love myself much more than i would love my wife.

I hope you never get married with that attitude.

i am sorry but i love myself more than any person on earth.
So, if you ever got married and you and your wife were confronted by a knife wielding maniac, you would point to her, yell out "kill her but don't hurt me", and run away like a little girl?
no.but i don't see how any knife wielding maniac can enter my house.
enemies:negroes,musulmans and commies/liberals.
alleis:israel,united states,canada,european union,greater serbia,russia,australia and new zealand and japan/south korea and india.togheter we maight win this war.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: An ethical dilemma
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2010, 06:30:08 AM »
Hi Warp that was basically the image I had in my head too but you said it so well.  :::D

Offline HiWarp

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Re: An ethical dilemma
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2010, 06:45:40 AM »
1) no.in any case i will still love myself much more than i would love my wife.

I hope you never get married with that attitude.

i am sorry but i love myself more than any person on earth.
So, if you ever got married and you and your wife were confronted by a knife wielding maniac, you would point to her, yell out "kill her but don't hurt me", and run away like a little girl?
no.but i don't see how any knife wielding maniac can enter my house.
Uh hum. So you and your wife never plan on leaving your house together and possibly being confronted by the maniac in the street?
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny;
when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”
---Thomas Jefferson

Offline IsraeliGovtAreKapos

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Re: An ethical dilemma
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2010, 06:51:02 AM »
World conquest is the smallest thing I would do for my wife.

Offline Ben m

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Re: An ethical dilemma
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2010, 07:02:14 AM »
1) no.in any case i will still love myself much more than i would love my wife.

I hope you never get married with that attitude.

i am sorry but i love myself more than any person on earth.
So, if you ever got married and you and your wife were confronted by a knife wielding maniac, you would point to her, yell out "kill her but don't hurt me", and run away like a little girl?
no.but i don't see how any knife wielding maniac can enter my house.
Uh hum. So you and your wife never plan on leaving your house together and possibly being confronted by the maniac in the street?
dude.israel is the only country where you can walk in the streets in 2 am and still feel safe.
enemies:negroes,musulmans and commies/liberals.
alleis:israel,united states,canada,european union,greater serbia,russia,australia and new zealand and japan/south korea and india.togheter we maight win this war.

Offline HiWarp

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Re: An ethical dilemma
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2010, 07:08:40 AM »
dude.israel is the only country where you can walk in the streets in 2 am and still feel safe.
You have an interesting way of avoiding an answer to my initial question. Okay, I'll play along. Israel has a low crime rate but it DOES have crime. Say, just for kicks, that you and your wife are unlucky enough to be victims of the attack that I've described. WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny;
when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”
---Thomas Jefferson

Offline Ben m

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Re: An ethical dilemma
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2010, 07:19:33 AM »
dude.israel is the only country where you can walk in the streets in 2 am and still feel safe.
You have an interesting way of avoiding an answer to my initial question. Okay, I'll play along. Israel has a low crime rate but it DOES have crime. Say, just for kicks, that you and your wife are unlucky enough to be victims of the attack that I've described. WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
i would call the police and run away with my wife.
enemies:negroes,musulmans and commies/liberals.
alleis:israel,united states,canada,european union,greater serbia,russia,australia and new zealand and japan/south korea and india.togheter we maight win this war.

Offline HiWarp

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Re: An ethical dilemma
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2010, 07:26:53 AM »
dude.israel is the only country where you can walk in the streets in 2 am and still feel safe.
You have an interesting way of avoiding an answer to my initial question. Okay, I'll play along. Israel has a low crime rate but it DOES have crime. Say, just for kicks, that you and your wife are unlucky enough to be victims of the attack that I've described. WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
i would call the police and run away with my wife.

You're in an alley. There is only one way out and it is being blocked by the maniac. There are no police around. Your options are throw your wife at the maniac to distract him while you escape OR confront the maniac yourself to let your wife escape. Let's be clear, one of you will get hurt or be killed so the other can survive. Now, what do you do?
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny;
when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”
---Thomas Jefferson

Offline Ben m

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Re: An ethical dilemma
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2010, 07:31:41 AM »
dude.israel is the only country where you can walk in the streets in 2 am and still feel safe.
You have an interesting way of avoiding an answer to my initial question. Okay, I'll play along. Israel has a low crime rate but it DOES have crime. Say, just for kicks, that you and your wife are unlucky enough to be victims of the attack that I've described. WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
i would call the police and run away with my wife.

You're in an alley. There is only one way out and it is being blocked by the maniac. There are no police around. Your options are throw your wife at the maniac to distract him while you escape OR confront the maniac yourself to let your wife escape. Let's be clear, one of you will get hurt or be killed so the other can survive. Now, what do you do?
don't know
enemies:negroes,musulmans and commies/liberals.
alleis:israel,united states,canada,european union,greater serbia,russia,australia and new zealand and japan/south korea and india.togheter we maight win this war.

Offline JTFenthusiast2

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Re: An ethical dilemma
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2010, 11:35:26 AM »
Ben,

When you truly love someone, you put their safety first.  This is especially true in positions of danger Presumably in that moment you love them more.  This may be difficult at 16 y/o to understand. Selfishness does enter our thoughts.  I would understand it if you said to yourself, "but I want to see my children grow up."  However, this would likely be counterbalanced by your desire to have your children continue to have a mother.    Maybe this seems very odd to you, but you dont strike me as a thoughtless person.  If your wife was an expertmarksman and was a trained Black belt, perhaps your behavior might differ, but likely not your considerations.

Offline Ben m

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Re: An ethical dilemma
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2010, 01:02:42 PM »
Ben,

When you truly love someone, you put their safety first.  This is especially true in positions of danger Presumably in that moment you love them more.  This may be difficult at 16 y/o to understand. Selfishness does enter our thoughts.  I would understand it if you said to yourself, "but I want to see my children grow up."  However, this would likely be counterbalanced by your desire to have your children continue to have a mother.    Maybe this seems very odd to you, but you dont strike me as a thoughtless person.  If your wife was an expertmarksman and was a trained Black belt, perhaps your behavior might differ, but likely not your considerations.
JTFenthusiast2 i think you are right in the case of emotional love.however in young age you mostly have hormonal love.in that case one should think first and foremost on his own survival.
enemies:negroes,musulmans and commies/liberals.
alleis:israel,united states,canada,european union,greater serbia,russia,australia and new zealand and japan/south korea and india.togheter we maight win this war.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: An ethical dilemma
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2010, 04:51:37 PM »
Love is shown in how you behave not just how you feel.