Author Topic: All the research disproves the antisemitic "Khazar Theory"  (Read 6396 times)

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Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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All the research disproves the antisemitic "Khazar Theory"
« on: June 27, 2010, 06:06:22 AM »
What was originally a speculative hypothesis by Koestler warped into an Arab Muslim propaganda ploy in front of the UN as one of their main arguments against Jewish statehood during the 1940's, and has since been adopted (in the format presented by the Arabs) by neo-nazis, Jew-hating Muslims, and idiots alike.   It was turned into a conspiracy theory which claims that Ashkenazi Jews do not descend from the middle east, but are European imposters and converts from the Khazar tribe, while Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews are the "real Jews" who do actually descend from the "ancient Hebrews."   Let us leave aside that conversion is a valid adoption of Jewish identity or the fact that Ashkenazi Jews existed well before any such khazar state-religion originated.   And let's leave aside that the majority of the Jewish population in Israel is actually Sephardi/Mizrahi, NOT ashkenazi.   Those are relevant facts and historically documented realities, but superfluous to this discussion.

This conspiracy theory did not hinge on facts but merely on racist and antisemitic overtones coupled with a revisionist history that denies the continuous oral and written tradition of not only an entire group of people (Ashkenazi Jews) but multiple peoples, because the Ashkenazi populations are reflected in the Sephardi rabbinic writings dating back hundreds of years and were never called into question as to their "origin" Jewish identity and/or authenticity.

Needless to say this insane theory was on par with 9/11 "controlled demolition" morons and other truthtard fantasies which do not base themselves in fact but on wishful thinking and tin-foil hat imagination seeking to deny vast array of facts and historical documentation.

Now, the empirical genetic research has disproven this insanity and driven the final nail in a coffin that already housed this irrational, idiotic bird-brain belief.   Now even those who are ignorant and/or gullible or easily swayed cannot be swayed by the irrational belief system of the khazar theory-adherents.

Let us look at the hard evidence which disproves the stupidity.

Source 1.  http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature09103.html
Unfortunately the fulltext requires subscription, but I will place here the abstract.

Quote
Letter
Nature advance online publication 9 June 2010 | doi:10.1038/nature09103; Received 9 December 2009; Accepted 21 April 2010; Published online 9 June 2010

The genome-wide structure of the Jewish people
Doron M. Behar1,2,14, Bayazit Yunusbayev2,3,14, Mait Metspalu2,14, Ene Metspalu2, Saharon Rosset4, Jüri Parik2, Siiri Rootsi2, Gyaneshwer Chaubey2, Ildus Kutuev2,3, Guennady Yudkovsky1,5, Elza K. Khusnutdinova3, Oleg Balanovsky6, Ornella Semino7, Luisa Pereira8,9, David Comas10, David Gurwitz11, Batsheva Bonne-Tamir11, Tudor Parfitt12, Michael F. Hammer13, Karl Skorecki1,5 & Richard Villems2

Contemporary Jews comprise an aggregate of ethno-religious communities whose worldwide members identify with each other through various shared religious, historical and cultural traditions1, 2. Historical evidence suggests common origins in the Middle East, followed by migrations leading to the establishment of communities of Jews in Europe, Africa and Asia, in what is termed the Jewish Diaspora3, 4, 5. This complex demographic history imposes special challenges in attempting to address the genetic structure of the Jewish people6. Although many genetic studies have shed light on Jewish origins and on diseases prevalent among Jewish communities, including studies focusing on uniparentally and biparentally inherited markers7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, genome-wide patterns of variation across the vast geographic span of Jewish Diaspora communities and their respective neighbours have yet to be addressed. Here we use high-density bead arrays to genotype individuals from 14 Jewish Diaspora communities and compare these patterns of genome-wide diversity with those from 69 Old World non-Jewish populations, of which 25 have not previously been reported. These samples were carefully chosen to provide comprehensive comparisons between Jewish and non-Jewish populations in the Diaspora, as well as with non-Jewish populations from the Middle East and north Africa. Principal component and structure-like analyses identify previously unrecognized genetic substructure within the Middle East. Most Jewish samples form a remarkably tight subcluster that overlies Druze and Cypriot samples but not samples from other Levantine populations or paired Diaspora host populations. In contrast, Ethiopian Jews (Beta Israel) and Indian Jews (Bene Israel and Cochini) cluster with neighbouring autochthonous populations in Ethiopia and western India, respectively, despite a clear paternal link between the Bene Israel and the Levant. These results cast light on the variegated genetic architecture of the Middle East, and trace the origins of most Jewish Diaspora communities to the Levant.


Source 2. http://www.cell.com/AJHG/retrieve/pii/S0002929710002466
Can download fulltext as PDF at this link.

I'll quote their abstract as well.
Quote
Abraham's Children in the Genome Era: Major Jewish Diaspora Populations Comprise Distinct Genetic Clusters with Shared Middle Eastern AncestryGil Atzmon1, 2, 6, Li Hao3, 6, 7, Itsik Pe'er4, 6, Christopher Velez3, Alexander Pearlman3, Pier Francesco Palamara4, Bernice Morrow2, Eitan Friedman5, Carole Oddoux3, Edward Burns1 and Harry Ostrer3

For more than a century, Jews and non-Jews alike have tried to define the relatedness of contemporary Jewish people. Previous genetic studies of blood group and serum markers suggested that Jewish groups had Middle Eastern origin with greater genetic similarity between paired Jewish populations. However, these and successor studies of monoallelic Y chromosomal and mitochondrial genetic markers did not resolve the issues of within and between-group Jewish genetic identity. Here, genome-wide analysis of seven Jewish groups (Iranian, Iraqi, Syrian, Italian, Turkish, Greek, and Ashkenazi) and comparison with non-Jewish groups demonstrated distinctive Jewish population clusters, each with shared Middle Eastern ancestry, proximity to contemporary Middle Eastern populations, and variable degrees of European and North African admixture. Two major groups were identified by principal component, phylogenetic, and identity by descent (IBD) analysis: Middle Eastern Jews and European/Syrian Jews. The IBD segment sharing and the proximity of European Jews to each other and to southern European populations suggested similar origins for European Jewry and refuted large-scale genetic contributions of Central and Eastern European and Slavic populations to the formation of Ashkenazi Jewry. Rapid decay of IBD in Ashkenazi Jewish genomes was consistent with a severe bottleneck followed by large expansion, such as occurred with the so-called demographic miracle of population expansion from 50,000 people at the beginning of the 15th century to 5,000,000 people at the beginning of the 19th century. Thus, this study demonstrates that European/Syrian and Middle Eastern Jews represent a series of geographical isolates or clusters woven together by shared IBD genetic threads.
 
This nature.com blog discusses the results of these two recent studies
http://blogs.nature.com/news/thegreatbeyond/2010/06/genes_link_jewish_communities.html

It says:
Quote
After a genome-wide analysis last week reported that Jews worldwide have significant genetic commonalities, a second study published today comes to a similar conclusion. But will the new evidence put to rest a debate that has lasted more than a century?

Tradition has it that Jews around the world are one people with shared religious and cultural practices. Several studies from the last decade that have looked closely at genetics have pointed to a common history based on shared genetics between different Jewish populations. But many historians doubt that genes could be shared, noting that there was so much mixing between Jews and neighboring populations – non-Jews converting to Judaism in large numbers around or before the time of Christ, or Jews being sold as slaves and sent off to far-off lands, then freed there – that they should have come to genetically blend into the geographical population where they ended up.

Catherine Hezser, who studies ancient Judaism at the University of London’s School of Oriental and African Studies and wasn’t involved in the research, notes that for this reason, she does not “believe in any of the genetic theories, which are usually propagated for non-scientific, ideological reasons”. But the researchers say their fine-grained analysis of 14 Jewish populations, published in Nature today, could provide some answers.

The groups examined in the study included not just major communities such as Ashkenazi Jews of Eastern Europe and Sephardim from Bulgaria and Turkey, but also several that are much smaller and, like the Bukharan Jews of Central Asia and Jews from India, Ethiopia and Yemen, are often referred to as the “lost tribes” of Israel. The study mainly examined single-letter variations – called single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) – in individuals within each group, compared to individuals in surrounding areas.

Much like the analysis published last week, the study showed that all of the Jewish communities share some common genetic features, and for the most part, the Jewish groups are more similar to each other than to the non-Jews in the same regions.

“These two studies are the first pair of genome-wide studies of SNP variations in collections of multiple Jewish populations,” says Noah Rosenberg, a population geneticist at the University of Michigan who was not involved in either study. The strength of the Nature paper, he says, is that it compared the Jewish groups to an unprecedentedly broad array of non-Jewish groups, making the comparison – and the genetic ties identified – especially robust.


Because of their large panel of populations, the researchers were able to dive more deeply than ever before into fine scale relationships between different populations. The closest genetic clustering, both among Jewish and non-Jewish groups, is seen in the eastern Mediterranean area known as the Levant, including Israel, Lebanon, Syria, and surrounding regions, the study finds. One interpretation, then, says Tudor Parfitt, also of the University of London’s School of Oriental and African Studies and an author on the Nature study, may be that the most active mixing between Jews and non-Jews occurred there. That is, if those two groups were already genetically very close, such admixture wouldn’t have changed much.

Meanwhile, Ethiopian Jews and those from Mumbai, India, seem to be much closer genetically to their host populations than are other groups examined. These groups, says Parfitt, probably did largely come to Judaism more by conversion than by migrating from larger Jewish communities; in that sense, even the limited genetic ties the researchers identified were surprising, he notes. At the same time, stresses Richard Villems, a molecular anthropologist at the University of Tartu in Estonia and one of that study’s lead authors, “if the genes seem to tell a story that some Jewish communities are further away from the main communities, that doesn’t make them any less Jewish”.

Karl Skorecki at Technion University in Haifa, a nephrologist, occasional population geneticist, and a lead author on the study, notes that the two SNP studies together lay a foundation for studying disease-related genes that might be specific to Jewish people. Some questions to ask, he says, might be how do certain alleles become specific to certain populations, and how do periods of active mixing with other groups influence genome-wide structure. “One can start to do very rigorous analyses and extract them to other populations on the planet,” he adds.

Posted by Alla Katsnelson on June 09, 2010

http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2010/06/tracing-the-roots-of-jewishness.html
This discusses the paper from American Journal of Human Genetics

There were also discussions of these papers in an article in the NY times which I think Muman might have already cited here.
Here is the link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/10/science/10jews.html


But none of this was surprising or new, except to the antisemitic arab nationalists and neonazis.

« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 06:12:16 AM by Kahane-Was-Right BT »

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: All the research disproves the antisemitic "Khazar Theory"
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2010, 06:11:14 AM »
Now let's discuss the paper Ralph cited from 2009 and which results he tried to distort.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2797531/?tool=pmcentrez

Before we get into further detail, which is worth examining in this study, let's just quote the authors' conclusions from the data and results they uncovered, shall we?

Quote
Conclusion
These results support the view that the Jewish populations largely share a common Middle Eastern ancestry and that over their history they have undergone varying degrees of admixture with non-Jewish populations of European descent.

This conclusion was taken from the paper's abstract.   The paper's own authors disagree with the insane interpretation pedo-Ralph tried to deceptively apply to this study.

Here's the abstract in full:
Abstract
Background
Genetic studies have often produced conflicting results on the question of whether distant Jewish populations in different geographic locations share greater genetic similarity to each other or instead, to nearby non-Jewish populations. We perform a genome-wide population-genetic study of Jewish populations, analyzing 678 autosomal microsatellite loci in 78 individuals from four Jewish groups together with similar data on 321 individuals from 12 non-Jewish Middle Eastern and European populations.
Results
We find that the Jewish populations show a high level of genetic similarity to each other, clustering together in several types of analysis of population structure. Further, Bayesian clustering, neighbor-joining trees, and multidimensional scaling place the Jewish populations as intermediate between the non-Jewish Middle Eastern and European populations.
Conclusion
These results support the view that the Jewish populations largely share a common Middle Eastern ancestry and that over their history they have undergone varying degrees of admixture with non-Jewish populations of European descent.


Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: All the research disproves the antisemitic "Khazar Theory"
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2010, 06:18:16 AM »
I have never seen before neo-nazis claiming that ALL Jews, even Sephardim are "imposters" spawned out of khazar conversion.   That is, I had never seen that until the neo-nazi Israeli Ben M showed up at this forum, and now it seems Ralph wants to piggyback his views, although he backed off in the end from claiming that Kurdish Jews were of Khazar origin.    That neo-nazis would now shift their fantasy to include even Mizrahim and Sephardim as "not real Jews" and only "khazar imposters" shows that the theory itself never had any legs and reflects the fact that empirical evidence has disproved it (their speculation as an imaginable theory could not escape the tenticles of empirical demonstration of the falsehood behind it).   A paradigm shift like that only comes because of scientific demonstration of shared genetic origin of Ashkenazi and Sephardi groups as common middle eastern origin.   Now they have no choice but to claim that ALL Jews must then descend from khazars, which denies at least 700 years of documented history, because this is their only way to say what they want to say and will say no matter what the facts are:  They "believe" with irrational, senseless, and baseless faith that Jews need to be exterminated and Jews have no right to a homeland, nor to be guests in other lands, and so the way to "justify" murdering Jews in both situations is to "discredit" them by disconnecting the Jews from their ancient history and by calling all current Jews "fakes" and "not the real Hebrews."   This is how they rationalize their Jew-hatred, so it really does not matter how baseless a "theory" the khazar garbage is, anything will suffice for them.   Once their latest fad is disproven (although in this case it already is), they will simply create something new and adopt that as the new justification for their evil.

Offline White Israelite

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Re: All the research disproves the antisemitic "Khazar Theory"
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2010, 06:36:34 AM »
I have never seen before neo-nazis claiming that ALL Jews, even Sephardim are "imposters" spawned out of khazar conversion.   That is, I had never seen that until the neo-nazi Israeli Ben M showed up at this forum, and now it seems Ralph wants to piggyback his views, although he backed off in the end from claiming that Kurdish Jews were of Khazar origin.    That neo-nazis would now shift their fantasy to include even Mizrahim and Sephardim as "not real Jews" and only "khazar imposters" shows that the theory itself never had any legs and reflects the fact that empirical evidence has disproved it (their speculation as an imaginable theory could not escape the tenticles of empirical demonstration of the falsehood behind it).   A paradigm shift like that only comes because of scientific demonstration of shared genetic origin of Ashkenazi and Sephardi groups as common middle eastern origin.   Now they have no choice but to claim that ALL Jews must then descend from khazars, which denies at least 700 years of documented history, because this is their only way to say what they want to say and will say no matter what the facts are:  They "believe" with irrational, senseless, and baseless faith that Jews need to be exterminated and Jews have no right to a homeland, nor to be guests in other lands, and so the way to "justify" murdering Jews in both situations is to "discredit" them by disconnecting the Jews from their ancient history and by calling all current Jews "fakes" and "not the real Hebrews."   This is how they rationalize their Jew-hatred, so it really does not matter how baseless a "theory" the khazar garbage is, anything will suffice for them.   Once their latest fad is disproven (although in this case it already is), they will simply create something new and adopt that as the new justification for their evil.

The enemy works like they are playing a chess game, they are taking careful steps in the process. It's just like the Israel/Palestine debate, enemies don't always outright claim Israel shouldn't exist, they will use theories like "Palestine should exist next to an Israel state" while others will claim Israel shouldn't exist at all and Jews should live with Palestinians in a Palestinian state.

Then to get even more extreme, some will deny that Jews even came from the middle east.

same theory today about the Ashkenazi and Sephardim, they will attack the Ashkenazi and claim the Sephardim are Israelites but lately they are attacking both the Ashkenazi and Sephardim claiming they were never in Israel.

They are taking this step at a time by "conditioning" people rather than taking extreme steps so they can brainwash them once they have them hooked.

Offline mord

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Re: All the research disproves the antisemitic "Khazar Theory"
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2010, 08:58:07 AM »
Yes all studies prove the Jews are middle eastern with some flow very small from the countries they reside               http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/06/100603123707.htm
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Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: All the research disproves the antisemitic "Khazar Theory"
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2010, 09:46:56 AM »
There is at the present time an Internationalist Globalist plot to DELEGITIMIZE The State of Israel by whatever means it can be done.  It is well organized, and highly financed by some of the most evil people on the planet.  All Jew-haters are jumping on the bandwagon with joyful glee, spending 24hrs. a day spreading lies and disinformation through the internet and major media.  It should be expected that all the Nazi fringe groups are currently using the "Khazaria" theory as their number one "talking point", because that way they can misrepresent themselves anonymously over the internet as "concerned scholars" and "supporters of scientific evidence" who are "seeking a 'just solution' in ending the Middle Eastern conflict", etc..... .

In my humble opinion, this propaganda campaign will succeed beyond anyone's wildest imagination, because it is coming from all sides at once:  the Marxists, the Internationalist Globalists, the UN, the Hitlerian Nazi fringe, and even the White House and State Department.

Americans are 1) frightened and insecure 2) incredulously uncivilized and uneducated, 3) financially bankrupt and unable to sustain their lives, and 4) quickly becoming a majority population of savages and Third World illiterates who already hate all things White and/or Jewish.

Such a population will inevitably "choose the path of least resistance" in seeking "simple", "uncomplicated" solutions to their personal problems.  Unable to accept personal responsibility for the results of their actions and lifestyles, they will gladly parrot the new "party line" that "Ending the Middle East conflict requires nothing more than sending the Khazars back to where they came from so that the poor oppressed People of Color can have their stolen land back, live in peace and harmony with nature, and love Americans again."

Again, I warn all reader members to make immediate aliyah.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: All the research disproves the antisemitic "Khazar Theory"
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2010, 09:49:02 AM »
It should be expected that all the Nazi fringe groups are currently using the "Khazaria" theory as their number one "talking point", because that way they can misrepresent themselves anonymously over the internet as "concerned scholars" and "supporters of scientific evidence" who are "seeking a 'just solution' in ending the Middle Eastern conflict", etc..... . 

It could be they are trying to present themselves this way, but as I have shown here, clearly the scientific evidence is NOT in their favor and disproves their junk speculations.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: All the research disproves the antisemitic "Khazar Theory"
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2010, 09:56:37 AM »
Two points to make:

1: This theory is obviously a big Nazi lie, plain and simple. The foreign genetic admixture in Jews comes from Gentile hordes raping Jewish women during pogroms.

2: Even if this was true, if they made official and valid conversions to Judaism, they are still Jews, plain and simple.

Offline syyuge

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Re: All the research disproves the antisemitic "Khazar Theory"
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2010, 10:21:54 AM »
So all the khazar gentile idiots have combined against the Jews.
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Offline Ze'ev

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Re: All the research disproves the antisemitic "Khazar Theory"
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2010, 12:44:12 PM »
We should embrace our Khazar heritage!!!  :laugh:
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Offline muman613

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Re: All the research disproves the antisemitic "Khazar Theory"
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2010, 01:11:37 PM »
We should embrace our Khazar heritage!!!  :laugh:

At least we don't deny that the Kahzars do have Jewish heritage... I have read the Kuzari which describes what happened during that period from the Jewish perspective.



You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
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Offline Ari Ben-Canaan

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Re: All the research disproves the antisemitic "Khazar Theory"
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2010, 01:12:41 PM »
Has anyone here studied the "Lemba tribe" in Africa?  They are a group of Africans who trace their ancestry back to Israel, and the Israelite ancestors they trace they identify as white.  They do not practice Judaism, but at one point their ancestors seem to have done so.  I find them interesting to study, though I am not well versed with their history as others may be.  Their story seems to back up Jewish history once again, and their gene analysis bolsters this backing up of Jewish history as well.  Its sad that they have for all practical purposes stopped practicing Judaism, but its really neat that some Jewish customs are still kept despite all the time which has passed.

http://yidwithlid.blogspot.com/search?q=lemba
I first read of them on Yid w/ a Lid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemba_people
They have a wikipage.
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Offline muman613

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Re: All the research disproves the antisemitic "Khazar Theory"
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2010, 01:20:16 PM »
Yes, it is believed that Moses spent some years as the King of Ethiopia... Maybe during that time period some of the natives picked up Jewish practices.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: All the research disproves the antisemitic "Khazar Theory"
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2010, 07:26:07 PM »
Re:  "it is believed that Moses spent some years as the King of Ethiopia"

"Believed" by whom?

And why in the world would a man raised as Egyptian royalty want to be a "King" over a place like Ethiopia, especially after receiving the Law?

Ethiopia being on the African continent -- do some suggest that Moses was King of Ethiopia prior to becoming the leader of the Children of Israel?

There's essentially nothing there and never has been anything there other than khat chewing, violent, and rude primitives.

What "evidence" is given as being reason for anyone "believing" that Moses was King of Ethiopia?

I have also studied about the Lemba tribe.  There's so little evidence linking them to Judaism, that they may as well just captured a Rabbi one day and ate him after memorizing some of his chants and incantations.

The people whose lifestyles and customs most suggest direct linkage to the Lost northern tribes of Israel are the Pashtun of Afghanistan.  Besides looking just like Jews, they wear talis blue and white with fringes, and they have always referred to themselves as the people of Israel.  They are also just as crazy and stubborn as are the Jews, as evidenced by the fact that today they are 4th Century primitive Muslim Talibani and are defeating the West. 


Offline muman613

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Re: All the research disproves the antisemitic "Khazar Theory"
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2010, 07:32:30 PM »
Re:  "it is believed that Moses spent some years as the King of Ethiopia"

"Believed" by whom?

And why in the world would a man raised as Egyptian royalty want to be a "King" over a place like Ethiopia, especially after receiving the Law?

Ethiopia being on the African continent -- do some suggest that Moses was King of Ethiopia prior to becoming the leader of the Children of Israel?

There's essentially nothing there and never has been anything there other than khat chewing, violent, and rude primitives.

What "evidence" is given as being reason for anyone "believing" that Moses was King of Ethiopia?

I have also studied about the Lemba tribe.  There's so little evidence linking them to Judaism, that they may as well just captured a Rabbi one day and ate him after memorizing some of his chants and incantations.

The people whose lifestyles and customs most suggest direct linkage to the Lost northern tribes of Israel are the Pashtun of Afghanistan.  Besides looking just like Jews, they wear talis blue and white with fringes, and they have always referred to themselves as the people of Israel.  They are also just as crazy and stubborn as are the Jews, as evidenced by the fact that today they are 4th Century primitive Muslim Talibani and are defeating the West. 



Obviously during the period he was in hiding from Egypt... It was many years from when he fled Egypt because he killed the Egyptian task master and the time he took the Jewish people out of Egypt.

The source of this comes from the Talmud. I will bring to you some sources which support what I am telling you...

http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/811478/jewish/Interpolated-Translation.htm

Quote
15 Pharaoh heard about the incident, for Dathan and Aviram informed on Moses.54 Pharaoh therefore sought to kill Moses. He had him tried, but although Moses had a speech impediment, he miraculously defended himself eloquently. Still, Pharaoh wanted to pronounce him guilty, but G-d struck him dumb. Pharaoh then tried to mumble his intentions to his ministers, but G-d made the ministers deaf. Pharaoh motioned to the executioners to kill Moses, but miraculously, the executioner's sword was unable to harm him.55 G-d made the executioners blind, and thus Moses fled from Pharaoh's presence.56 He fled to Ethiopia, where he joined the army and 9 years later was crowned king. He remained king of Ethiopia for 40 years.

In the year 2418 (while Moses was king of Ethiopia), certain families of the tribe of Ephraim, assuming that the 400 years prophesied in the Covenant between the Parts began as soon as the covenant was made (in the year 2018), concluded that they were over. Mistakenly believing that the time of their redemption had arrived, 30,000 armed men from this tribe left Egypt and set out toward the Land of Israel. They took money with them but no provisions, assuming they would either buy food from the Philistines or conquer their country. But the Philistines defeated them instead, and killed them all except for ten individuals who returned to Egypt to report the events.57

While Moses was in Ethiopia, Miriam married Caleb, son of Yefuneh, of the tribe of Judah, and they had a son whom they named Hur.58

In the year 2434, at the age of 67,59 Moses left Ethiopia and settled in the land of Midian. He thought it was time to get married, so he sat down near a well, following the example of his ancestor Jacob, who found his wife at a well (see Figure 2).
 

http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/682297/jewish/Meriting-the-Land-of-Israel.htm

Quote
Regarding Moses: he went to the Land of Cush and lived there for forty years, and actually married the wife of the [slain] Ethiopian king, and lived with her [outwardly] as man and wife, as is recounted in the accounts of Moses' life. Even though he did not approach her physically, he was still not buried in the Land of Israel at all, neither his body nor his bones.

The Written Torah does not tell us what happened to Moses between the time when he fled Pharaoh's henchmen, at about the age of 18, and when he became Jethro's shepherd and son-in-law, at about the age of 77. There are a few versions in the Midrashim of what happened, but according to the most detailed one, Moses slew the Egyptian in the year 2386, when he was 18 years old. He fled to Ethiopia, where he joined the army and 9 years later was coronated king. This is when he "married" the widow of the previous king of Ethiopia, or "Cush". He remained king of Ethiopia for 40 years, from 2395 to 2435. In that year, at the age of 67, he left Ethiopia and went to Midian. After the incident with the shepherds at the well, Jethro imprisoned Moses for ten years. Zipporah fed Moses secretly during these ten years, and finally convinced her father to release him. In 2445, at the age of 77, Moses and Zipporah were married, and shortly after had their first son, Gershon. The incident of the burning bush occurred in the year 2447, when Moses was 79 years old. (See Seder HaDorot, s.v. 2386, 2387, 2392, 2435, 2444)

http://www.torah.org/qanda/seequanda.php?id=628
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Did Moses have an Ethiopian wife? Did he have children by her?

Moses' Ethiopian wife is mentioned in Num.12:1, but the Midrashim all say that "Kushis" in that verse means "beautiful" and that the wife was Jethro's daughter Zipporah. However, Targum Yonasan takes the Ethiopian wife literally, and the story of Moses' marriage in Ethiopia is also told by Josephus (Antiquities II:10-11) and by the Sefer ha-Yashar (Berlin 1923, p.254). According to the Sefer ha-Yashar, Moses had no relations with that wife because of Abraham's prohibition against marrying Hamitic women. Josephus says that the marriage was consummated, but says nothing about children. Thus Moses' only children were his two sons by Zipporah (Ex. 18:9 3-4).

http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp?action=displayanchor&pentid=P4063

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dark-skinned
  Tzipporah was a dark-skinned Midianite (Ibn Ezra; Radak, Sherashim). Kushite in Hebrew, literally Ethiopian (cf. Targum Yonathan; Rashbam; Septuagint). It is from here that the tradition is derived that after he escaped from Egypt, Moses was a ruler in Ethiopia, and married an Ethiopian princess (Rashbam; Sefer HaYashar; Divrey Yamim DeMoshe; Yalkut Shimoni 168; Rashbam; Josephus, Antiquities 2:10:2). Or, 'a beautiful wife' (Targum; Saadia; Rashi; HaKethav VeHaKabbalah); or, 'a distinguished wife' (Rashi).

« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 07:48:32 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: All the research disproves the antisemitic "Khazar Theory"
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2010, 09:54:30 PM »
This is the first time I've ever heard anything like this!

Must be true!

Can you expound on the following:  " Abraham's prohibition against marrying Hamitic women "?

Offline muman613

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Re: All the research disproves the antisemitic "Khazar Theory"
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2010, 10:05:32 PM »
This is the first time I've ever heard anything like this!

Must be true!

Can you expound on the following:  " Abraham's prohibition against marrying Hamitic women "?

Certainly...

It is well known the story of Noach and his son Ham... Ham was cursed because of his shaming {and possibly more harm done to} Noach after the flood receded.

Abraham knew about this curse, which actually was placed on Canaan the son of Ham.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/246610/jewish/Noahs-Children.htm

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Ham’s Sin

Noah began to plow the fields, and he planted a vineyard. One day he drank some of the wine, not knowing its strength, he became drunk. Seeing his father lying drunk in his tent, Ham told his brothers about it in a very rude way. His two brothers went into the tent, where they covered their father and put him in his bed without looking at him in his shame. When Noah awoke and found out what had happened, he was angry at his son Ham, saying that Ham’s children should be slaves to the children of his brothers Shem and Japheth.

Shem and His Descendants

Then he prayed that Shem and Japheth have wisdom and beauty, and great social and cultural achievements. Shem became a prophet of G-d and lived six hundred years, serving G-d as a priest. In the time of Abraham, who was the ninth generation in direct line of descent from Shem, Shem was famous under the name of Malkitzedek, the “Just King,” who brought offerings to G-d. He lived to see the eleventh generation of his descendants (Jacob). Together with his worthy great-grandson Eber, he taught and spread faith in G-d and in His commands in a school which was known as the Academy of Shem and Eber.

During the time of Eber’s son Peleg, the lifespan of human beings dwindled down to about one half of what it was in the former generation.

http://www.noahidenations.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=323

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A Strange Curse

There has always been some wonder at why Canaan was cursed. Concerning the text of the Torah it is unclear that Canaan had anything to do with Noach. All we know is that Ham saw his father’s nakedness, told his brothers, and Noach awoke to curse Canaan. At the very least this is a strange sequence of events.

There are several theories offered to explain this strange event. One theory is that since Ham had already been blessed by G-d Noach was unable to curse him and so cursed his son instead. This is very strange if Noach were only naked. Cursing someone with slavery for seeing their nakedness does not sound just for someone as righteous as Noach.

There are two primary theories about what happened. The first is that seeing his father’s nakedness Ham had an illicit affair with Noach while he slept. This gruesome scene does not seem to fit with the curse. The punishment must be equal to the crime. The second theory seems more likely. Ham, seeing his father’s nakedness realized that if Noach had another son, a fourth son, that the world would be split between four peoples and not three. Realizing this, Ham thought it best if Noach were not able to produce any more heirs and castrated his father.

As a result Noach cursed Canaan to be a slave to his brothers. A slave does not rule, everything the slave owns is actually the master’s. The reasoning behind this explanation was that just as Ham had castrated his father Noach to prevent a fourth son of Noach from having a share in the world; Noach would curse Ham’s fourth son, therefore preventing him from having a true share in this world.

Canaan not Ham

For some reason people jump from the curse of Canaan back to Ham. Instead of only applying Noach’s curse to Canaan, which the Torah seems very clear about, they apply it to all of Ham’s descendants.

The world was divided into three groups, descendants of Shem, Ham and Yapheth. The descendants of Shem were apportioned the near to Middle East regions, Ham’s descendants were given Africa, and Yapheth’s descendants were given the lands to the north around the Mediterranean. There is debate as to whether the Far East went to Yapheth or Shem. 

Canaan went to dwell in Israel—territories belonging to Shem. It is unclear whether this was done of Canaan’s volition or if this were part of his curse or both. Whatever the reasons for Canaan taking control of the land; the territories that were taken over by Canaan did not belong to the descendants of Ham. The land of Canaan should have been the land of Shem!

The Canaanites built up the land of Israel over the centuries until it was finally taken into the possession of the Israelites—the true heirs of Shem! G-d promised Israel this in the Torah when he said: “And it shall be, when the Lord your G-d shall have brought you into the land which he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give you great and goodly cities, which you did not build”< [4]< G-d promised a land to Israel that would be ready for them to move into.


Now Abraham knew of this curse and this explains why he did not allow Yitzak to marry Eliezers {Abrahams faithful servant} daughter,  because Eliezer was a descendant of Canaan...

http://www.aish.com/tp/b/lp/48957096.html

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A BRIDE FOR ISAAC

After coming so close to losing his beloved son Isaac, Abraham decided the time had come to marry him off. Abraham called his trusty Canaanite servant Eliezer and administered an oath. (Although Abraham trusted him totally to manage his finances, to marry off his son was a spiritual enterprise for which he wanted an oath.) Eliezer swore not to take a wife for Isaac from the Canaanite women, and not to return Isaac to live in the "old country."

Rashi tells us that Eliezer also had an eligible daughter whom he offered, but Abraham declined, saying, "I am blessed and the Canaanites are cursed. That doesn't make a good match."

Question: Ideologically, shouldn't the daughters of Abraham's Canaanite disciples, such as Eliezer, have been much more desirable than the idolaters of Abraham's hometown? Why bother returning home?

Answer: Ideology can be changed with the proper persuasion. However, character traits are inborn and extremely difficult to alter. The Canaanites were the children of Cham and Canaan, who were cursed by Noah, and for all of their good ideology they still retained Cham's character. On the other hand, the family of Abraham had good character traits even if they did worship idols.

In a marriage, character traits should be the most important factor; ideology can change more easily.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 10:11:03 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Aces High

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Re: All the research disproves the antisemitic "Khazar Theory"
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2010, 10:10:21 PM »
These Nazis sing the same old tune.  They never want to fight tough Jews.  Just Jews that can't fight

Offline Rubystars

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Re: All the research disproves the antisemitic "Khazar Theory"
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2010, 12:00:19 AM »
Muman that last one almost seems to condone religious intermarriage because the wife could be "persuaded" to follow Judaism.

Offline muman613

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Re: All the research disproves the antisemitic "Khazar Theory"
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2010, 12:05:52 AM »
Muman that last one almost seems to condone religious intermarriage because the wife could be "persuaded" to follow Judaism.

At the time of Abraham there was no Jewish people... Remember that Abraham was the father of the Jewish nation. As a result there was no option besides marrying someone from Abrahams home town of Ur Kasdim. The prohibition against marrying non-Jewish women did not officially come down till Moses at Sinai {and even Moses married non-Jewish women who converted}.


http://www.beingjewish.com/identity/whoisajew.html

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/174,2121027/How-could-Abraham-be-the-first-Jew.html
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ari Ben-Canaan

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Re: All the research disproves the antisemitic "Khazar Theory"
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2010, 12:08:49 AM »
Quote
The world was divided into three groups, descendants of Shem, Ham and Yapheth. The descendants of Shem were apportioned the near to Middle East regions, Ham’s descendants were given Africa, and Yapheth’s descendants were given the lands to the north around the Mediterranean. There is debate as to whether the Far East went to Yapheth or Shem. 

Where do Asian, and Native American [North and South] people come from?
"You must keep the arab under your boot or he will be at your throat" -Unknown

"When we tell the Arab, ‘Come, I want to help you and see to your needs,’ he doesn’t look at us like gentlemen. He sees weakness and then the wolf shows what he can do.” - Maimonides

 “I am all peace, but when I speak, they are for war.” -Psalms 120:7

"The difference between a Jewish liberal and a Jewish conservative is that when a Jewish liberal walks out of the Holocaust Museum, he feels, "This shows why we need to have more tolerance and multiculturalism." The Jewish conservative feels, "We should have killed a lot more Nazis, and sooner."" - Philip Klein

Offline muman613

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Re: All the research disproves the antisemitic "Khazar Theory"
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2010, 12:12:50 AM »
Quote
The world was divided into three groups, descendants of Shem, Ham and Yapheth. The descendants of Shem were apportioned the near to Middle East regions, Ham’s descendants were given Africa, and Yapheth’s descendants were given the lands to the north around the Mediterranean. There is debate as to whether the Far East went to Yapheth or Shem. 

Where do Asian, and Native American [North and South] people come from?

I do not know this off the top of my head and I am having some difficulty locating the answer at this time. I will try to answer this because it is a good question...

I did find this mention:

http://www.aish.com/tp/b/lp/48955856.html

Quote
Parashat Noah relates one of the oldest, and most widely told universal stories. Almost every ancient nation - from the American Indians to the Chinese - have a tradition of a flood connected to a tower. The Torah stresses the moral lesson: Man is responsible for the world, and his actions can destroy or preserve it!


Here is a discussion of each of the sons of Noah...

http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp?action=displayanchor&pentid=P252
« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 12:23:03 AM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Rubystars

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Re: All the research disproves the antisemitic "Khazar Theory"
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2010, 12:23:43 AM »
Muman that last one almost seems to condone religious intermarriage because the wife could be "persuaded" to follow Judaism.

At the time of Abraham there was no Jewish people... Remember that Abraham was the father of the Jewish nation. As a result there was no option besides marrying someone from Abrahams home town of Ur Kasdim. The prohibition against marrying non-Jewish women did not officially come down till Moses at Sinai {and even Moses married non-Jewish women who converted}.


http://www.beingjewish.com/identity/whoisajew.html

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/174,2121027/How-could-Abraham-be-the-first-Jew.html

Thanks

Offline muman613

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Re: All the research disproves the antisemitic "Khazar Theory"
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2010, 12:27:19 AM »
Muman that last one almost seems to condone religious intermarriage because the wife could be "persuaded" to follow Judaism.

At the time of Abraham there was no Jewish people... Remember that Abraham was the father of the Jewish nation. As a result there was no option besides marrying someone from Abrahams home town of Ur Kasdim. The prohibition against marrying non-Jewish women did not officially come down till Moses at Sinai {and even Moses married non-Jewish women who converted}.


http://www.beingjewish.com/identity/whoisajew.html

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/174,2121027/How-could-Abraham-be-the-first-Jew.html

Thanks

Of course in this weeks Torah portion we learn that Moses marriage to a Midianite woman caused some of the Children of Israel to become confused and commit sexual immorality and idolatry with the women of Midian.

Quote
http://www.chabad.org/parshah/in-depth/default_cdo/aid/48218/jewish/In-Depth.htm

Behold, a man of the children of Israel came, and brought... a Midianite woman before the eyes of Moses, and before the eyes of all the congregation of the children of Israel; and they stood weeping (25:6)

The woman said to him: "I shall give myself to none but Moses, for so my father Balak bade me, not to yield to any one but to Moses your master, because my father is a king." Said he to her: "Behold, I am as great as he is! I shall bring you out before their eyes!" He seized her by her plait and brought her to Moses. He said to him: "O son of Amram! Is this woman permitted or forbidden?" He answered him: "She is forbidden to you." Said Zimri to him: "The woman whom you married was a Midianitess!" Thereupon Moses felt powerless and the law slipped from his mind.

All Israel wailed aloud, as for it says, "And they stood weeping." Why were they weeping? Because they became powerless at that moment. This may be illustrated by a parable. It is like the case of a king's daughter who, having adorned herself for the purpose of entering the bridal chamber and sitting in a palanquin, was discovered misconducting herself with a stranger, and so her father and her relatives lost heart. It was the same with Israel. At the end of forty years they camped by the Jordan to cross over into the Land of Israel... and there they gave way to harlotry. The courage of Moses failed him as did that of the righteous ones with him.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ari Ben-Canaan

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Re: All the research disproves the antisemitic "Khazar Theory"
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2010, 01:42:35 AM »
Quote
The world was divided into three groups, descendants of Shem, Ham and Yapheth. The descendants of Shem were apportioned the near to Middle East regions, Ham’s descendants were given Africa, and Yapheth’s descendants were given the lands to the north around the Mediterranean. There is debate as to whether the Far East went to Yapheth or Shem. 

Where do Asian, and Native American [North and South] people come from?

I do not know this off the top of my head and I am having some difficulty locating the answer at this time. I will try to answer this because it is a good question...

I did find this mention:

http://www.aish.com/tp/b/lp/48955856.html

Quote
Parashat Noah relates one of the oldest, and most widely told universal stories. Almost every ancient nation - from the American Indians to the Chinese - have a tradition of a flood connected to a tower. The Torah stresses the moral lesson: Man is responsible for the world, and his actions can destroy or preserve it!


Here is a discussion of each of the sons of Noah...

http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp?action=displayanchor&pentid=P252

Sounds interesting.  I will have a look.

If/when you come across the answer to my earlier question I would interested in that too.

:)
"You must keep the arab under your boot or he will be at your throat" -Unknown

"When we tell the Arab, ‘Come, I want to help you and see to your needs,’ he doesn’t look at us like gentlemen. He sees weakness and then the wolf shows what he can do.” - Maimonides

 “I am all peace, but when I speak, they are for war.” -Psalms 120:7

"The difference between a Jewish liberal and a Jewish conservative is that when a Jewish liberal walks out of the Holocaust Museum, he feels, "This shows why we need to have more tolerance and multiculturalism." The Jewish conservative feels, "We should have killed a lot more Nazis, and sooner."" - Philip Klein