Poor, sad, dancing Israeli soldiers

[wonga66]

Esav is Halachically considerd a "Yisroel Mumar". His descendants, just like the Ten Lost Tribes, long ago lost their Jewish status, and according to the Talmud have today the Halachic status of complete goyim.

But they were "blessed" by Yitzchok that they would "live by the sword".

The Romans, Spartans and Germans, all warrior nations, were descendants of Esav.

If they had done teshuvah, eg when the Roman Emperor Antoninus (=Marcus Aurelius) became a talmid of Rebbe, and converted to Judaism, he could have Judaized his legions, and instead of Rome becoming Xtianised & enemies of Judaism, they could have conquered the world for the G-d of Israel, & world history would have been totally different.

Really, you agree with him that you'd rather have gentile European nazi beasts serving as the "armed wing" of the Jewish state's army rather than Jews fighting?   You agree with him that Jews are mystically inherently incapable of fighting or discipline, but goyim are supermen and should be employed to do work for us?  You agree that a Jewish "brand" of nazism where we simply tell nazis what to do and they listen to us, that that is a good thing?   What kind of self-hating insanity is this and how can you possibly agree?

[muman613]

Here is some information regarding what Wonga has said... I have not read about this but this lecture by Rabbi Wein discusses the Roman Emperors relationship with the Jewish people:

http://www.rabbiwein.com/Marcus-Aurelius--Great-NonJews-in-Jewish-History-P669.html

The Talmud records the long-standing friendship between Judah the Prince and the Roman emperor Antoninus, but whether Marcus Aurelius was Antoninus himself or just a successor is a matter of some debate. Either way, his philosophical writings show that he identified with Jewish values. Rabbi Wein discusses the life and contributions of this rarity of Roman leaders: an altruist who admired and favored the Jewish people.

http://www.ou.org/about/judaism/rabbis/hanasi.htm

Yehudah, who had been circumcised, was given temporarily to the wife of the governor, while the Roman child, who of course was uncircumcised, was held by the Jewish mother, completely fooling the authorities, including the governor himself. Later, when that Roman child grew up to become Marcus Aurelius, an enlightened and compassionate ruler, he and Rebbi became close friends, which redounded to the benefit of the Jewish People.

http://www.shechem.org/machon/schwarz/palestine/period1.html

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Esav is Halachically considerd a "Yisroel Mumar". His descendants, just like the Ten Lost Tribes, long ago lost their Jewish status, and according to the Talmud have today the Halachic status of complete goyim.   

That's because they are goyim.  What other status would they have?   We don't even know who descends from Esaw.  But whoever they are, no one ever thought that his sons were included within the 12 tribes of Yaakov because those are the sons of YAKOV, which is his brother, not him.  Thus the Jewish nation descends from Yakov, not Esaw.

But they were "blessed" by Yitzchok that they would "live by the sword".   

[/b]

And, your point?

Once again you weave fairytales and mystical nonsense out of the facts until our minds are in the sky and the facts have lost their meaning.  What you say in this post has nothing to do with reality.

The Romans, Spartans and Germans, all warrior nations, were descendants of Esav.

You know that for a fact?  No, you don't.   

If they had done teshuvah, eg when the Roman Emperor Antoninus (=Marcus Aurelius) became a talmid of Rebbe, and converted to Judaism, he could have Judaized his legions, and instead of Rome becoming Xtianised & enemies of Judaism, they could have conquered the world for the G-d of Israel, & world history would have been totally different. 

Now you are reading a midrash literally like a simpleton and distorting its meaning.   Actually, I wonder if that is even a possible reading literally?!   He became Jewish?   The midrash I have seen does not say this.   I'm not sure what you refer to...  But certainly The Talmud DOES NOT say this !  Why would Chazal leave that out?   Many reasons, but primarily because 1.  It never happened, and 2. Even if it did (unlikely), it's irrelevant.   Yet even though Chazal considered it irrelevant, you make it relevant to such an extent that you weave a life philosophy out of it.   Fact is, irrelevance isn't the issue here because according to the Talmud what you claim never happened.

Really, you agree with him that you'd rather have gentile European nazi beasts serving as the "armed wing" of the Jewish state's army rather than Jews fighting?   You agree with him that Jews are mystically inherently incapable of fighting or discipline, but goyim are supermen and should be employed to do work for us?  You agree that a Jewish "brand" of nazism where we simply tell nazis what to do and they listen to us, that that is a good thing?   What kind of self-hating insanity is this and how can you possibly agree?

[/quote]

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Here is some information regarding what Wonga has said... I have not read about this but this lecture by Rabbi Wein discusses the Roman Emperors relationship with the Jewish people:

http://www.rabbiwein.com/Marcus-Aurelius--Great-NonJews-in-Jewish-History-P669.html

The Talmud records the long-standing friendship between Judah the Prince and the Roman emperor Antoninus, but whether Marcus Aurelius was Antoninus himself or just a successor is a matter of some debate. Either way, his philosophical writings show that he identified with Jewish values. Rabbi Wein discusses the life and contributions of this rarity of Roman leaders: an altruist who admired and favored the Jewish people.

http://www.ou.org/about/judaism/rabbis/hanasi.htm

Yehudah, who had been circumcised, was given temporarily to the wife of the governor, while the Roman child, who of course was uncircumcised, was held by the Jewish mother, completely fooling the authorities, including the governor himself. Later, when that Roman child grew up to become Marcus Aurelius, an enlightened and compassionate ruler, he and Rebbi became close friends, which redounded to the benefit of the Jewish People.

http://www.shechem.org/machon/schwarz/palestine/period1.html

And did you notice that what you wrote here contradicts what wonga is claiming?

[muman613]

Here is some information regarding what Wonga has said... I have not read about this but this lecture by Rabbi Wein discusses the Roman Emperors relationship with the Jewish people:

http://www.rabbiwein.com/Marcus-Aurelius--Great-NonJews-in-Jewish-History-P669.html

The Talmud records the long-standing friendship between Judah the Prince and the Roman emperor Antoninus, but whether Marcus Aurelius was Antoninus himself or just a successor is a matter of some debate. Either way, his philosophical writings show that he identified with Jewish values. Rabbi Wein discusses the life and contributions of this rarity of Roman leaders: an altruist who admired and favored the Jewish people.

http://www.ou.org/about/judaism/rabbis/hanasi.htm

Yehudah, who had been circumcised, was given temporarily to the wife of the governor, while the Roman child, who of course was uncircumcised, was held by the Jewish mother, completely fooling the authorities, including the governor himself. Later, when that Roman child grew up to become Marcus Aurelius, an enlightened and compassionate ruler, he and Rebbi became close friends, which redounded to the benefit of the Jewish People.

http://www.shechem.org/machon/schwarz/palestine/period1.html

And did you notice that what you wrote here contradicts what wonga is claiming?

I did not realize the story of Marcus Aurelius... That was my only point for posting this information. Regarding his main thesis, I don't necessarily agree.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Here is some information regarding what Wonga has said... I have not read about this but this lecture by Rabbi Wein discusses the Roman Emperors relationship with the Jewish people:

http://www.rabbiwein.com/Marcus-Aurelius--Great-NonJews-in-Jewish-History-P669.html

The Talmud records the long-standing friendship between Judah the Prince and the Roman emperor Antoninus, but whether Marcus Aurelius was Antoninus himself or just a successor is a matter of some debate. Either way, his philosophical writings show that he identified with Jewish values. Rabbi Wein discusses the life and contributions of this rarity of Roman leaders: an altruist who admired and favored the Jewish people.

http://www.ou.org/about/judaism/rabbis/hanasi.htm

Yehudah, who had been circumcised, was given temporarily to the wife of the governor, while the Roman child, who of course was uncircumcised, was held by the Jewish mother, completely fooling the authorities, including the governor himself. Later, when that Roman child grew up to become Marcus Aurelius, an enlightened and compassionate ruler, he and Rebbi became close friends, which redounded to the benefit of the Jewish People.

http://www.shechem.org/machon/schwarz/palestine/period1.html

And did you notice that what you wrote here contradicts what wonga is claiming?

I did not realize the story of Marcus Aurelius... That was my only point for posting this information. Regarding his main thesis, I don't necessarily agree.

But what he claims about Aurelius is not said by the Talmud, is not said by Sherira Gaon in his extensive iggereth, which I have learned, and it is not said in the ancient midrashim.    There is no reason to believe Marcus Aurelius "converted to Judaism" or became a "talmid" of Rebbe!

[wonga66]

That Emperor Antoninus (aka Marcus Aurelius) became a ger is stated in the Yerushalmi Talmud Megilla 72.

That Emperor Nero became a ger is stated in the Bavli Talmud Gittin 56.

That Onkelos, nephew to Emperor Titus, became a ger, ibid.

"The great kingdom of Rome was built by Zepho, son of Eliphaz, son of Esau"  (Yelamdeinu, Batei Midrashos 160).



Yitzhak's blessing to Esau "thy dwelling will be the fatnesss of the earth" (Breishis 27:39) is that his descendants would inherit Italy (Rashi).


 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

That Emperor Antoninus (aka Marcus Aurelius) became a ger is stated in the Yerushalmi Talmud Megilla 72.

That Emperor Nero became a ger is stated in the Bavli Talmud Gittin 56.

That Onkelos, nephew to Emperor Titus, became a ger, ibid.

"The great kingdom of Rome was built by Zepho, son of Eliphaz, son of Esau"  (Yelamdeinu, Batei Midrashos 160).



Yitzhak's blessing to Esau "thy dwelling will be the fatnesss of the earth" (Breishis 27:39) is that his descendants would inherit Italy (Rashi).


 

Sounds like you're saying the whole roman empire was Jewish.   Without a doubt you are misinterpreting these statements which are not historical.    Rav Sherira Gaon makes no mention of this.   He mentions the positive relations between Rebbe and the emperor which enabled his compiling of the mishna by easing the pressure on the Jews and the edicts against the chachamim.  That's it.

Also when I said it wasn't in the Talmud, I was referring to the Bavli, however I have not seen the Yerushalmi you reference.   I hasten to add that if it does say what you claim, it is probably not meant literally because no outside evidence corroborates this.   On instinct, I am sure it is midrash (like the tale about Nero certainly is) and it is not telling over "history" because that was not chazal's concern with midrash.   But I will have to look into it to see what is being said.    Maybe aurelius was an actual ger according to one tradition.  We shall see.

Also, I'm not sure why it's relevant to say here that Onkelos was a ger.  Everyone knows and accepts that.  And there were many gerim in those times.  But Onkelos was not the Roman emperor which would be quite a remarkable thing that perhaps history might slightly take note of if it happened.

In any case, all of this departs from the point of what I was saying which is that there is no question that non-Jews/Europeans (even descendants of Esav if you want to call them that) are non-Jews and Jews are Jews.  You are conflating Europeans with Jews for some strange reason.   Jews are supposed to have their own nation and with that nation they can provide for themselves, defend themselves, do all the things that all men are capable of.   We do not need to farm out anything-other-than-learning as if we are incapable to live on our own and with G-d's help.   There was a time when the great chachamim worked for a living and learned trades, and fought in battle, and they would think you are nuts for saying these things.   But you see the present-day reality when many so-called "learners" are uneducated or unemployed and incapable of other things.    The reality is that they are capable, they just don't know it, and like you, they have been led to believe that those things are not for them because they are supposedly "goyishe" things not Jewish things.   What a scandal.  Why do you buy into such garbage and propagate it here?   Why do you buy into the myth that Jews are defenseless and helpless and weak and cannot fight, and why do you propagate it here?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Yitzhak's blessing to Esau "thy dwelling will be the fatnesss of the earth" (Breishis 27:39) is that his descendants would inherit Italy (Rashi).

Yes, Esau/Edom is traditionally associated with Rome, however it is insane to think that every European descends from Romans or that chazal meant this in a genetic way and that all Europeans descend from Esav.  If you think logically about it for even half a second, you would realize that the Fall of the Roman empire was caused in large part due to invading Huns and other barbaric peoples, and these are likely the ancestry of the Germans and other peoples.   So obviously not all Europeans came from Romans.   Chazal do not speak in terms of genetics.   They meant that Rome took on Esau's identity.    You make europeans into Esavian-infused supermen of "master race" like the master race of Hitler y''s, whom you admire so much, spoke about.

And everyone knows that Ibn Ezra argues with other rishonim and even with chazal by saying that Edom's descendants cannot be identified as the Roman empire.   It may be because he was also understanding it as a literal genetic descending and in that case he is right to argue.    But it seems to me that people who understand chazal that way are getting twisted and confused.   Chazal do not care about genetics, the concept didn't exist.  Probably people in Ibn Ezra's day had similar misunderstanding and so he is combating that.   By associating Rome with Esau, chazal make a political statement and indicate the relationship/interaction between the empire and the Jews.   You twist it into some kind of an anachronistic racial theory, and not only that, you make europeans a "superior race!"  Can that possibly be further from what was intended?

[wonga66]

"It is soul shattering to hear anyone express doubt over any teaching of Chazal, whether in Halacha or Aggada. One who denies a teaching of Chazal is unfit to serve as a witness!" (Chazon Ish).

Without a doubt you are misinterpreting these statements which are not historical....it is probably not meant literally because no outside evidence corroborates this......+it is not telling over "history"

So you prefer the unreliable historical records of anti-semitic gentiles over Chazal?! Woe on you!

[wonga66]

Yair Davidy of Jerusalem, who is a shtickel Kahanist, presents much cogent Chazal, historical, and prophetic evidence that many European nations are in fact of Ten Lost Tribe ancient Israelite origin in his books and site www.britam.org

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

"It is soul shattering to hear anyone express doubt over any teaching of Chazal, whether in Halacha or Aggada. One who denies a teaching of Chazal is unfit to serve as a witness!" (Chazon Ish).

Without a doubt you are misinterpreting these statements which are not historical....it is probably not meant literally because no outside evidence corroborates this......+it is not telling over "history"

So you prefer the unreliable historical records of anti-semitic gentiles over Chazal?! Woe on you!

This is bogus.

Saying that you misinterpreted chazal is not the same thing as "denying a teaching of chazal!"   When you distort what chazal said and misunderstand it, it is YOU who is denying chazal and making a mockery of them, just like the Rambam explains when he speaks about the proper way to understand midrashic statements.

You think that chazal were sitting there recording "history" and writing it down.   Only an ignoramus thinks that. 

Don't make stupid accusations.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Yair Davidy of Jerusalem, who is a shtickel Kahanist, presents much cogent Chazal, historical, and prophetic evidence that many European nations are in fact of Ten Lost Tribe ancient Israelite origin in his books and site www.britam.org

Even if that is true, and I'm sure you will believe it whether it's plausible or not...
The 10 tribes were NOT from Esav, they were from Yaakov!

[wonga66]

Read Davidy's Britam articles: not all European nations are of TLT origins.

Eliphaz, Zepho, Amolek and other Edomites went on to rule Rome, Carthage, Botzrah, Mocha, Sparta, Thrace, Tyre, Anatolia and Germania.
Their military prowess was renowned, fulfiling Yitzchok's 'blessing' to Eisav of "You will live by your sword".

Talmudic Aggadta is not Midrash. The next thing is that you'll say the Halachos in the Talmud 'aren't literal' and 'they don't really mean it that way'.

What is "Midrashic" about the Gemara that Nero became a ger?

Do you have trouble literally accepting the Gemara on the same page that Titus was punished by a gnat that flew in to his nostril and destroyed his brain?

Do you believe that the Nachash in Gan Eden walked and talked and spoke Hebrew?

Do you believe that Balaam's donkey spoke Hebrew?

 Do you believe that the giving of the Torah on Mt Sinai by G-d to the Am Yisrael in 2448AM was an actual event that occurred in actual historical reality?

Or will you say again that "it's not literal because no external evidence corroborates it"?!

Are you a Reformist or Conservative? Or extreme 'leftwing' Moderdox?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Listen, ever since I joined this forum, you have shown constant hostility toward me.
I do not like the way you talk to me and I am not entitled to respond to your sarcasms.
Your malevolence is blatant.

As soon as you joined this forum, you started making absurd left-wing posts (i.e. "Serb extremism").

[Yaakov Mendel]

Listen, ever since I joined this forum, you have shown constant hostility toward me.
I do not like the way you talk to me and I am not entitled to respond to your sarcasms.
Your malevolence is blatant.

As soon as you joined this forum, you started making absurd left-wing posts (i.e. "Serb extremism").

Just because you disagree with my posts doesn't make them absurd.
About the Serbs : I have already explained myself several times, I do not want to go over that again. You want to make me look like an ennemy of the Serbs, although I am not.
But whatever I say every time I explain myself on this topic, you just won't listen. You bear a grudge on me and there is nothing I can say that will change your mind.
For the last time, I admit I made one or two comments about the war in the Balkans that were hasty and superficial - but none of them was outrageous. I am fully aware that I am not an expert on that subject and, since my initial superficial remark, I never talked about that subject. So why do you keep harassing me with this ?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Just because you disagree with my posts doesn't make them absurd.
About the Serbs : I have already explained myself several times, I do not want to go over that again. You want to make me look like an ennemy of the Serbs, although I am not.
But whatever I say every time I explain myself on this topic, you just won't listen. You bear a grudge on me and there is nothing I can say that will change your mind.
For the last time, I admit I made one or two comments about the war in the Balkans that were hasty and superficial - but none of them was outrageous. I am fully aware that I am not an expert on that subject and, since my initial superficial remark, I never talked about that subject. So why do you keep harassing me with this ?

It wasn't just that, you have made a lot of left-wing posts, like the ones in this discussion currently.

[MassuhDGoodName]

That "British Israelite" theory has long been discredited.

It originated in the UK in the 1800's when Imperialists ruling the world sought to "justify" their enslavement and "rape" of Asia and North America by trying to "prove" that they were in actuality the nation Israel.

The unfortunate remnants of "British Israelism" survive today in the fringe lunatic groups calling themselves the "Christian Identity" Movement - claiming that only the pure Aryan races are the true Jews, and that all the other Jews who've been around since time immemorial are merely "imposters". 

I've read Davidy's "research", which is really little more than a collection of neologisms at worst, and absurd folk tales at best.

Not a single shred of credible documentation to be found anywhere, yet Davidy goes on lecture tours and speaking engagements "proving" he's found the Lost Tribes in the white people of Western Europe.

His "proofs" are based on such ridiculousness as claiming that Britain is a Lost Tribe of Israel - the "proof" offered being that since the first four letters of the English word 'Britain' spell "Brit", which when pronounced in Hebrew means 'covenant', this "proves" that the English actually are one of the Lost Tribes of Israel.

Huh?

Pure foolishness by a pseudo-scholar unable to distinguish between documentable evidence -vs- mere hearsay.

It is not to the credit of the State of Israel that so many wild eyed "frum fakirs" have made it their home - the place is literally crawling with "Illiterati".

[Yaakov Mendel]

Just because you disagree with my posts doesn't make them absurd.
About the Serbs : I have already explained myself several times, I do not want to go over that again. You want to make me look like an ennemy of the Serbs, although I am not.
But whatever I say every time I explain myself on this topic, you just won't listen. You bear a grudge on me and there is nothing I can say that will change your mind.
For the last time, I admit I made one or two comments about the war in the Balkans that were hasty and superficial - but none of them was outrageous. I am fully aware that I am not an expert on that subject and, since my initial superficial remark, I never talked about that subject. So why do you keep harassing me with this ?

It wasn't just that, you have made a lot of left-wing posts, like the ones in this discussion currently.

O.k., well, don't worry, I got the message : you don't like me, to put it mildly... I guess that I'll be on your list when you wage your all-out war of extermination against "Amalek".

[wonga66]

Whilst I don't agree with all his conclusions, this is not the 'British-Israelitism' of the Victorians, & Davidy's stuff is far from being discredited, he being an Orthodox Kahanist Jew, and bringing full support from Chazal, especially the prophecies about the world-rulership of the tribe of Ephraim & the return of the TLTs


So who do you believe the TLTs are: the Falashan negroes?! The American Indians?! The Japanese?!

[Yaacov Ben Yehuda]

Megiddo Jail near Yokneam, where the worst Arab killers are housed, also has a separate section for Israeli soldiers who are jailed for things like going AWOL, stealing jeeps, insulting officers etc.

The biggest loss to the Jewish People was when Esav left us. If Esav had remained a loyal Jew, we could have conquered the world.

The Romans and Germans are descendants of Esav. They would have become the Fighting Arm of the Am Yisrael. Soldiers like them didn't dance while on active duty and in uniform......ever!



As R.Kahane writes, serving in Zahal is as much a mitzva (defending the Am Yisrael positive mitzva number 195) as putting on Tefillin, and is to be viewed with the same reverence and kovod...not irreverent frivolity!

And besides, whilst dancing they were eminently ambushable by a Hebron Fatah terrorist, the same as the 12 poor dozing Israeli soldiers who were gunned down by one arab with a carbine in 2002, or the 6 soldiers who were gunned down in their tent by a hang-glider terrorist in 1986 because the dozy Israeli guard ran off!

I agree with you 100% Wonga...your assesment is correct. These soldiers are an absolute disgrace to us, anyone that doesnt understand this is confused.

Really, you agree with him that you'd rather have gentile European nazi beasts serving as the "armed wing" of the Jewish state's army rather than Jews fighting?   You agree with him that Jews are mystically inherently incapable of fighting or discipline, but goyim are supermen and should be employed to do work for us?  You agree that a Jewish "brand" of nazism where we simply tell nazis what to do and they listen to us, that that is a good thing?   What kind of self-hating insanity is this and how can you possibly agree?

No I agree with wonga's point that these poor sad dancing soldiers were behaving in a very pathetic and unfitting way as soldiers of the Israeli people.  I served in Hebron as a foot soldier and we would never behave like these dumb soldiers did.  Why were they dancing and making a mockery of their patrol duty?  How does this behaviour contribute to the safety of the Jewish Hebronian community?  And the fact it was posted up on youtube for the whole world to see is a disgrace as well and make the I.D.F look less intimidating which will in turn equal more violence against Jews.

[mord]

Yair Davidy of Jerusalem, who is a shtickel Kahanist, presents much cogent Chazal, historical, and prophetic evidence that many European nations are in fact of Ten Lost Tribe ancient Israelite origin in his books and site www.britam.org

He has tapes                                    http://britam.org/videoclips.html

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "Whilst I don't agree with all his conclusions "

Then you agree that he draws conclusions without proof and without documentation.

Such ideas are called "conjecture" and are not conclusions.

And you can be a Kahanist, or Orthodox, or any other thing, and still have no credibility when it comes to historical research.

His "beliefs" are almost word for word the lectures of the late Herbert W. Armstrong's World Wide Church of G-d.

Thanks for agreeing.

p.s.-- and I don't "believe" in anything except Ha'Shem.

p.s.s. -- and for every Rabbi who asserts a certain "point of view", there is an equal but opposite point of view from another Rabbi insisting that all others are wrong.

Proper documentation and credible research are required to "convince" me, especially when it is so obvious that someone hasn't the slightest idea of what they are claiming.

I have read all of Davidy's material, and heard him interviewed on Arutz Sheva, and spent time on his website, and he has absolutely no credibility.

None.

Whatever else he might be, he is not someone to be taken as a serious scholar either of Jewish or world history.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "One who denies a teaching of Chazal is unfit to serve as a witness!" "

Fine.

Then don't call him up to the witness stand.

You would have had a great time during the Spanish Inquisition.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "especially the prophecies about the world-rulership of the tribe of Ephraim & the return of the TLTs"

Oh!

Well now that you mention "the prophecies about the world rulership of the tribe of Ephraim and the......"

Why didn't you come up with such "hard clad proof" earlier?

Now I believe it!

Anyone daring to question any of it is an enemy of G-d and obviously not Orthodox and obviously not Kahanist!

Thanks for setting me straight!