First meat made from dairy and grain

[muman613]

Here is some information about Chicken and Dairy from Chabads 'Ask Moses' site:

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/146,2195154/Are-chicken-and-fish-considered-meat-and-not-allowed-with-dairy.html

Are chicken and fish considered meat and not allowed with dairy?

The Short Answer:

Neither chicken nor fish meet the Torah's criteria for meat (in this context). Chicken1, however, is rabbinically considered meat and forbidden with dairy.

The Askmoses Answer:

The Torah says2 "do not cook a kid in its mother's milk".

The oral tradition3 tells us that (in the Torah's classic way of conveying many messages through limited words) the Torah is teaching us many laws through this enigmatic verse. For example: "kid in its mother's milk" is not limited to a young animal in its biological mother's milk, rather the Torah is describing the general definition of meat for this law. One of the criteria for "meat" in this context is that its mother gives milk.

This then does not include poultry or fish4. Thus technically speaking, there is no Biblical prohibition against eating chicken or fish with dairy.

However, this poses a problem: many people did, and continue to, consider chicken a form of meat. It was sold together in the market, and is sold together in butcher shops and at the deli counter of your local supermarket etc. It was/is thus easy to make the mistake that if chicken (which in the mind of the masses is meat) was being eaten with milk, that meant other meats, as long as they aren't the actual kid in its biological mother's milk, are also permitted with milk.

Obviously this is incorrect; you may not eat any "beef" (or lamb etc.) in any (animal's) milk.

This is a troublesome thought. People could innocently make the mistake and break a Torah law. The sages, who were commanded by the Torah to protect its laws, issued a decree that since people consider chicken to be a form of meat, it is in the category of meat and may not be eaten with dairy.

This confusion never applied to fish and fish is still not classified as meat. (There are other issues with fish, both regarding fish and milk and fish and meat. See each link respectively).



Footnotes

    * 1. We are just using chicken as a common example. However, the same applies to all poultry.
    * 2. Exodus 23:19, 34:26 and Deuteronomy 14:21
    * 3. See Talmud tractate Chullin 113a (and subsequent pages). Also see Rashi on above verses.
    * 4. The difference is that chicken is considered a form of meat - but it is excluded because its mother doesn't give milk; whereas fish is not even considered a form of meat in the Torah.

http://ohr.edu/explore_judaism/daf_yomi/weekly_dafootnotes/1679

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:_jduzxu7yfUJ:www.aishdas.org/ta/5764/reeh.pdf+%22chullin+113a%22+chicken&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShhoPzEm2Z7YuytCZlofV07Ma_wFZpAyYs7jjej2tmoQkVrowh7AvVxnavHgDDrCh6y5NHfIA7wn6ih3nNR6Zp-9bxPEeHU-0S4K_WtL8z9Io62GU9eB26zBXtJzFQm_V5_qAbw&sig=AHIEtbQsixGCznOu3irMhm5PPGoFU9MDQg


There is a dispute about whether milk and fowl is forbidden Biblically or Rabbinically (see Chullin 113a, where it only Rabbi Akiva and Rabbi Yosi Hagelili who say that it is Biblically permitted, with Rabbi Akiva implying that it is Rabbinically prohibited—see Tosfos there, and on 104b where they conclude that milk is Biblically prohibited after fowl); we follow the opinion that it is only a Rabbinic prohibition (see Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Dayah 87:3).

[muman613]

Rashis comment on Shemot 23:19 is:

You shall not cook a kid: Heb. גְּדִי. A calf and a lamb are also included in [the term] גְּדִי, for גְּדִי is only an expression of a tender young animal. [This you know] from what you find in many places in the Torah where גְּדִי is written, and it was necessary to write after it עִזִים [to qualify it as a kid], for example, “I will send you a kid גְּדִי עִזִים ” (Gen. 38:17); “the kid גְּדִי הָעִזִים ” (Gen. 38:20); “two kids עִזִים גְּדָיֵי ” (Gen. 27:9); to teach you that wherever גְּדִי is mentioned unqualified, it also means a calf and a lamb. This [prohibition] is written in three places in the Torah, one for the prohibition of eating [meat with milk], one for the prohibition of deriving any benefit [from meat with milk], and one for the prohibition of cooking [meat with milk]. -[From Chul. 113b, 115b]

http://www.chabad.org/parshah/torahreading.asp?AID=15564&p=5&showrashi=true


Rashis comment on Shemot 34:26

You shall not cook a kid: This is the warning against [cooking] meat and milk [together]. This commandment is written in the Torah three times (Exod. 23:19, Deut. 14:21), one for eating, one for deriving benefit, and one for the prohibition of cooking. -[from Chul. 115b]

a kid: Heb. גְּדִי. Any young offspring is meant, even a calf or a lamb. Since [the Torah] had to specify in many places גְּדִי עִזִּים [when a young goat is meant], you learn that [mention of] גְּדִי unqualified means all sucklings. -[from Chul. 113b]

in its mother’s milk: This excludes fowl, which has no milk, which is not prohibited by the Torah but by the decree of the Scribes [the Sages]. -[from Chul. 113a]

http://www.chabad.org/parshah/torahreading.asp?AID=15567&p=6&showrashi=true


Rashis comment on Devarim 14:21

You shall not cook a kid [in its mother’s milk]: [This is stated] three times [here, in Exod. 23:19, and in Exod. 34:26], to exclude wild animals, fowl, and unclean animals [from the prohibition of cooking meat in milk]. — [Chul. 113a]

http://www.chabad.org/parshah/torahreading.asp?AID=36235&p=4&showrashi=true

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Interesting, I just saw this explanation that eating Meat after eating Dairy does not require any waiting period. I was not aware of this, and I am interested in whether others have heard of this. This doesn't concern the question of Chicken and Dairy, but it is fascinating none the less.... 

Did you assumed the waiting period was the same as for meat to dairy and is that what you've been doing?  Man, that's a real toil.   I love the fact that we can have meat right after dairy.  All you have to do is drink something liquid in between and it can be right afterwards.

My Rosh yeshiva when his kids were younger used to have cheesecake as the appetizer for the Shavuot meal, then remove the disposable table cloth and have a meal with meat.  He said he wanted to show his kids on the night of Shavuot (associated with the receiving of the Torah) that when we receive and observe the Torah we don't lose out on anything and we still get pleasure and have tasty food.  Cheesecake before and good tasting meat for the meal, like a real king's feast to symbolize the majesty of Torah observance.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Here is some information about Chicken and Dairy from Chabads 'Ask Moses' site:

Hmm... Judging from his reply, I think he's very.... let's call it "creative."   But it sounds as if the prohibition exists and he's trying to 'convince' the questioner that he must follow it by coming up with all sorts of explanations even if they were not originally mentioned.   Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the impression I get, and usually get, from that site and its replies.

[Raulmarrio2000]

When I was not trying to consciously follow any Jewish precepts, I have eaten seafood and enjoyed it, but I cannot eat milk with meat, cannot.  I dont know why.   I dont think it has anything to do with it being forbidden, I just have never been able to think of it without having a negative reaction.  Incidently, this is nothing against anyone on the forum who enjoys a Philly cheesesteak or cheeseburger.

When I was aiming to convert, I was very carefull about al the kashruth rules and felt an special aversion to mixing meat with dairy. It bothered me even to seee others mixing it. I prefered not to watch them when preparing cheeseburguers.
Now that I decided to remain a Ben Noah, I don't intentionally mix them but I don't check all the ingredients of prepared food, neither do I generally observe the time between meals. However, I am still quite carefull not to eat seafood, pork or any other impure animal. My reason is that while the prohibition of mixing dairy and meat, eating the sciatic nerve or eating meat without kosher shchitah was revealed only to Jews, the rules about impure animals was revealed to Noah first. Impure animals were and are permitted to Noahides, the distinction was revealed only for ancient times when Noahides performed Sacrifices, not regarding eating. But, since many Gentile ancient peoples extended the prohibition to eating also for cultural reasons, I feel aversion to it even if it's permited.

[muman613]

Here is some information about Chicken and Dairy from Chabads 'Ask Moses' site:

Hmm... Judging from his reply, I think he's very.... let's call it "creative."   But it sounds as if the prohibition exists and he's trying to 'convince' the questioner that he must follow it by coming up with all sorts of explanations even if they were not originally mentioned.   Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the impression I get, and usually get, from that site and its replies.

It appears that most of what that Chabad Rabbi said comes from Rashi and Tractacte Chullin 113a/b... I believe you also found something in Chullin {Chullin 8 Mishnah 4}... I have not been able to find that on the web though...

[Dr. Dan]

 

Is it true that Sephardim don't have a prohibition on Chicken and Dairy? My Sephardic
 friend of Egyptian descent told us that his customs don't prohibit this combination...

Not necessarily. My family mixes my wife's family doesn't. My father in law used to when he lived in Iran. I used to but out of respect for my wife I no longer do. I'm trying to find a logical Jewish justification that I can use so when I have kids they'll understand. However just because the rabbis said so is not enough to justify it. While those rabbis are beyond smart they are still human.

[Dr. Dan]

U didn't know?

Interesting, I just saw this explanation that eating Meat after eating Dairy does not require any waiting period. I was not aware of this, and I am interested in whether others have heard of this. This doesn't concern the question of Chicken and Dairy, but it is fascinating none the less....


http://www.dailyhalacha.com/Display.asp?PageIndex=98&ClipID=73

The Many Laws of Eating Meat After Milk

Today’s Halacha:

As we know, a person who eats meat must wait a certain period – according to Sephardim, six hours – before he may then eat milk or dairy products.  What is the Halacha concerning the reverse case, of a person who ate dairy products and now wishes to eat meat?  Is there any mandatory waiting period that must pass before he may partake of meat?

The Shulchan Aruch rules that there is no minimum time period that one must wait before he may eat meat after dairy products.  It is permissible to partake of meat immediately after eating dairy foods, provided that one undertakes the following three measures:

1)  One must carefully inspect his hands to make sure that they contain no residue of the dairy food.  According to the Shulchan Aruch, it suffices to merely inspect one's hands, but later authorities recommend that one wash his hands before eating meat after partaking of dairy products.  It should be noted that this condition applies only if somebody ate the dairy food with his hands.  If he ate with a fork or a spoon, and he knows for certain that his hands did not come in contact with the dairy food, then he need not inspect or wash his hands before eating meat.

2)  One must eat some non-dairy food before partaking of meat.  This requirement is to ensure that if some of the dairy food had become stuck somewhere in the person's mouth, it will be dislodged by the food that he eats before partaking of meat.  The Shulchan Aruch writes that all foods are suitable for this purpose, with the exception of leafy vegetables, flour and dates, which are not capable of dislodging food stuck in the person's mouth.

3)  Finally, one must rinse out his mouth with water, wine, or some other beverage (other than milk, of course).

These conditions apply equally to red meat and poultry; the three conditions mentioned above must be followed before one may eat meat or poultry after eating a dairy food.

Summary: One who eats a dairy food may eat meat or chicken immediately thereafter, after he washes his hands, eats a food other than leafy vegetables, flour or dates, and rinses his mouth with any beverage (other than milk, of course).

[Rubystars]

This thread reminds me of a lady I was talking to on Pal Talk one day. She said she didn't like the taste of pareve cakes and she wanted to serve real cake with dairy ingredients to her guests after dinner, but the waiting time was so long and they might not stick around for it. She said it wasn't such a long time if dairy was consumed first. So I said why not serve the cake first? She thought that was very strange, but it made sense to me!

[mord]

This thread reminds me of a lady I was talking to on Pal Talk one day. She said she didn't like the taste of pareve cakes and she wanted to serve real cake with dairy ingredients to her guests after dinner, but the waiting time was so long and they might not stick around for it. She said it wasn't such a long time if dairy was consumed first. So I said why not serve the cake first? She thought that was very strange, but it made sense to me!

I think German Jews wait less time even orthodox

[mord]

Yes I'm correct                              http://www.myjewishlearning.com/practices/Ritual/Kashrut_Dietary_Laws/Keeping_Kosher/Waiting_Between_Meals.shtml   









Some say one hour is sufficient time, and this has been the accepted tradition of Dutch Jews. German Jews follow a tradition of waiting three hours. Forst says this may be based on the idea that in winter the time between meals is shorter; therefore, it is acceptable to wait a shorter amount of time year round.





http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/146%2C2095378/How-long-must-one-wait-after-eating-meat-before-eating-dairy.html   






most Jews wait six hours, though Dutch Jews wait one hour, and German Jews wait three hours.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Here is some information about Chicken and Dairy from Chabads 'Ask Moses' site:

Hmm... Judging from his reply, I think he's very.... let's call it "creative."   But it sounds as if the prohibition exists and he's trying to 'convince' the questioner that he must follow it by coming up with all sorts of explanations even if they were not originally mentioned.   Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the impression I get, and usually get, from that site and its replies.

It appears that most of what that Chabad Rabbi said comes from Rashi and Tractacte Chullin 113a/b... I believe you also found something in Chullin {Chullin 8 Mishnah 4}... I have not been able to find that on the web though...

Yeah, 113 is probably where that Mishna occurs.  I have the translation of the Mishna with Kehati online but I wanted to find online the gemara's discussion of that mishna as well.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Is it true that Sephardim don't have a prohibition on Chicken and Dairy? My Sephardic
 friend of Egyptian descent told us that his customs don't prohibit this combination...

Not necessarily. My family mixes my wife's family doesn't. My father in law used to when he lived in Iran. I used to but out of respect for my wife I no longer do. I'm trying to find a logical Jewish justification that I can use so when I have kids they'll understand. However just because the rabbis said so is not enough to justify it. While those rabbis are beyond smart they are still human.

But the rabbis are the ones who said so to begin with to.  (ie, they made the prohibition, they can say it's permitted too) etc.      Although, I do remember now hearing about this that some Sephardim eat dairy with chicken, but that it was based on a mistaken manuscript of the Shulhan Aruch that has a scribal error in it.  I'm not 100% sure if it was this topic (chicken and cheese) but I think it was.   Apparently that scribal error was pretty widespread and made it to many places.   

That being said, Dr. Dan, if you have a family custom, usually that's reason enough that rabbis will allow you to stick with it, and you *could* say you stem from the Galileans and that's how it got preserved somehow in your family even though the Talmud concludes against it.  (I don't know how likely that really is, it may more likely stem from post-shulchan aruch times, but it's possible)  Because the Talmud does say that despite that the halacha is like Rabbi Akiva, the Galileans continued to eat chicken with dairy.  Even if that was true though, it may not validate the custom because it was a custom tied to Galilee and may not have post-Talmudic validity in other places.    Well good luck and ask your rabbis of course.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

This thread reminds me of a lady I was talking to on Pal Talk one day. She said she didn't like the taste of pareve cakes and she wanted to serve real cake with dairy ingredients to her guests after dinner, but the waiting time was so long and they might not stick around for it. She said it wasn't such a long time if dairy was consumed first. So I said why not serve the cake first? She thought that was very strange, but it made sense to me!

I think German Jews wait less time even orthodox

Yes, and Dutch Jews wait like 1 hour I think.