Orthodox US rabbis: Accept homosexuals

[takebackourtemple]

Someone briefly posted this subject and then it disappeared. I would like to answer it though. I'm sure some will have opposing views and I welcome any.

   Accepting someone who is Jewish but homosexual is like accepting someone who is Jewish but non-observant. While exceptions do exist, most orthodox congregations will accept them with open arms, will count them towards the minyan and will even give them Aliyas. It does not mean that the orthodox approve of it, but it does acknowledge that a Jew is a Jew. A Chabad tzadik once said that everyone in the minyan is 100% kosher when they come to pray.
   This doesn't mean that the orthodox are going to change their ways and bend backwards to accommodate the political agenda of queers, but they are going to do what they can to bring as many Jews as possible back to the torah.
   It is a common practice in Judaism to put a fence around the torah to make sure that everything is followed properly. The intention of this fence is not to keep others out but to keep the devoted close to the torah. If someone wants to ensure that they have a minyan of at least 10 shomar shabbat Jews I fully understand that they do their best to find one but at the same time it is better to have the minyan than to intentionally not have one.
   Despite the orthodox being strict, they are usually more accepting than the conservative and deformed. While the conservative and deformed will kick people out for not paying dues, more than 9 times out of 10, the Orthodox will encourage Jews to come in rather than to leave.
   In some cases a little torah education and knowledge is enough for someone to see the errs of their ways and become a better person.


    

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

What a joke this is.

[JTFenthusiast2]

Was this the thread Dr. Brennan Fan is asking about?

I think that people need to understand there are other aspects of being human besides one's sexual proclivities.  Often people on this forum view all homosexuals as being fundamentally the same.  You have people that are basically good and those who are not.  You cannot look at what someone does in the bedroom and know if they are a bad or good person. You know if a person is good by seeing them in the world with others, not by analyzing their sexual thoughts.  A more revealing test of someone's character is how they react to an ailing stranger or an annoying person when they themselves are stressed out.  I think the Orthodox way is right, as long as they do not feel pressured to change their views to accept the homosexual minority.

[Rubystars]

JTFE, I can't speak to what Jewish places of worship should do because I'm not Jewish. There are conservative churches in America that accept homosexual members, but only on the condition that they are not engaging in homosexual acts or living the homosexual "lifestyle" as it has come to be known. There is a fine balance between being open to people and protecting the current flock. Of course liberal churches let anyone in, even people who don't believe in the Bible, but I don't count them.

[Raulmarrio2000]

What a joke this is.

It's no joke. It's just a post with a misleading title. It's true that all Orthodox Jews accept any fellow Jew to pray no matter what he does. Homosexuality (inclination is not a sin). Sodomy is a sin in Judaism, but Judaism does not order to reject sinners or prevent them from keeping other mitzvot. The only exception is for some communal mitzvot if that Jew has received a Cherem. But it's quite unlikely that someone would receive a Cherem decree for sodomy, since Ravs should prove that he has not done Teshuvah and intends to keep on sinning and publicly defending his attitude and denying the validity of Torah ban on sodomy.
But the title seems to be intentionally written to confuse and make people believe that Ravs condone sodomy.

[Dr. Dan]

What do you they mean by "accept". 

If it is to accept homosexuality, I would think the author of whomever wrote that misquoted.

If it is to accept a person who has a tendency to be attracted to the same sex and it's unknown whether he/she practices this behavior, then I see nothing wrong with that.  As long as homosexuality behavior is discouraged, just as eating non kosher foods or not being shomer shabbat should be discouraged, then absolutely these Rabbis are correct..it's no joke and it's perfectly justified and a good thing.

[JTFenthusiast2]

Ruby,

I guess that's fine.  I dont agree with it, but religious institutions have the prerogative to do as they see fit.  This equation of sexual preference with morality is a false one.  There are many many immoral homosexuals, but it isn't necessarily because of what they do in bed.  It really doesnt matter what I think anyway.  G-d will be the ultimate decision maker when it comes to who has or has not lived or attempted to live a moral existence

[Lisa]

By the way, this is not a copy of the deleted thread. 

[Christian Zionist]

Homosexuality is an abomination to God.  Therefore accepting homosexuals is an abomination.  Gays have an agenda, first they invade institution as persecuted minorities, then force the institutions to pass law to ban all negative talks about homosexuality as hate speech.

Imagine Moses and Aaron accepting homosexuals in the ancient congregation!!!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Homosexuality is an abomination to G-d.  Therefore accepting homosexuals is an abomination. 

What do you mean by accepting them?  Accepting them to dinner parties?  Accepting what they say?  Accepting their credit cards?  Accepting their job application?

[The One and Only Mo]

Homosexuals are bad, mmkay?

[Ulli]

Homosexuality is an abomination to G-d.  Therefore accepting homosexuals is an abomination. 

What do you mean by accepting them?  Accepting them to dinner parties?  Accepting what they say?  Accepting their credit cards?  Accepting their job application?

I think Christian zionist mean accepting them in service or inviting them to your home for i.e. a dinner party as sign that you have gemeinschaft with them.

This is not possible. Questionable is if you can give them the hand as this is a sign of peace and gemeinschaft.

But there is no problem with accepting their job application or their credit card or if they are expert on a field to listen to them in order to make the right decision.

This are fleshy technical things, where most Christians see no problem with.

[Raulmarrio2000]

Homosexuality is an abomination to G-d.  Therefore accepting homosexuals is an abomination. 

What do you mean by accepting them?  Accepting them to dinner parties?  Accepting what they say?  Accepting their credit cards?  Accepting their job application?

I think Christian zionist mean accepting them in service or inviting them to your home for i.e. a dinner party as sign that you have gemeinschaft with them.

This is not possible. Questionable is if you can give them the hand as this is a sign of peace and gemeinschaft.

But there is no problem with accepting their job application or their credit card or if they are expert on a field to listen to them in order to make the right decision.

This are fleshy technical things, where most Christians see no problem with.

However there is no Noahide Law (I suppose you are a Gentile) forbidding to invite a sinner home. On the other hand, there is a Law that a Gentile, besides keeping his own mitzvot, should avoid enticing others (Jews or Gentiles) to violate their respective mitzvot. Would you invite a non-Observant Jew to your home or a dinner where kashrut is not kept, or in a way he'd have to use his car on Shabbat?  Would you invite a Jew and his Gentile partner to a party enticing them to keep on with that forbidden relation?

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

בס''ד

These pseudo "rabbis" are extreme leftwing Peace Now traitors. Their statement urged that we accept active homosexuals who are practicing homosexuality, G-d forbid.

This is an attempt to get us to eventually accept homosexuality itself. Their statement is treasonous.

Shmuel Goldin yimach shmo vezichro is a Peace Now traitor who has spent years publicly pressuring little Israel to commit national suicide.

Haskel Lookstein is another leftwing traitor who became one of the first Orthodox "rabbis" to endorse the Oslo surrender agreements with the Fatah-PLO Nazi terrorist mass murderers.

Yuval Sherlo is an extreme leftwing traitor who is the darling of the Bolshevik news media in Israel. Sherlo is now condemning the Israeli government for not being welcoming enough to Sudanese black Muslim illegal aliens who are flooding into Israel with the assistance of Egypt.

This issue is already being discussed on another thread that Mord opened:

http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,48294.0.html

[Rubystars]

Ruby,

I guess that's fine.  I dont agree with it, but religious institutions have the prerogative to do as they see fit.  This equation of sexual preference with morality is a false one.  There are many many immoral homosexuals, but it isn't necessarily because of what they do in bed.  It really doesnt matter what I think anyway.  G-d will be the ultimate decision maker when it comes to who has or has not lived or attempted to live a moral existence

I'm not saying that a homosexual is a "bad person" necessarily even if they're active. They could still be kind to others, etc. You pretty much hit the nail on the head when you said God decides who is moral and who is not moral. If God says that committing homsexual acts is a sin, then it's a sin, and not a moral thing to do at all according to God. So while an active homosexual might be moral in other ways, in committing those acts, he or she would not be moral.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Was this the thread Dr. Brennan Fan is asking about?

I think that people need to understand there are other aspects of being human besides one's sexual proclivities.  Often people on this forum view all homosexuals as being fundamentally the same.  You have people that are basically good and those who are not.  You cannot look at what someone does in the bedroom and know if they are a bad or good person. You know if a person is good by seeing them in the world with others, not by analyzing their sexual thoughts.  A more revealing test of someone's character is how they react to an ailing stranger or an annoying person when they themselves are stressed out.  I think the Orthodox way is right, as long as they do not feel pressured to change their views to accept the homosexual minority.

I think that everyone here acknowledges a difference, including me, between proud, practicing homosexuals and those who have same-sex desires that they are fighting and not acting on. All of these discussions involve PRACTICING homosexuals, not just anybody who has felt those feelings. I think we can all agree that it is heresy whenever someone says that the homosexual lifestyle is okay and just fine and kosher.

Elena Kagan, Elton John, Eminem, Adam Lambert, etc. are not abstinent homosexuals. They all live out their queerness boldly and proudly and do their best to tell the world that this disgusting life is okay.

[Ulli]

Homosexuality is an abomination to G-d.  Therefore accepting homosexuals is an abomination. 

What do you mean by accepting them?  Accepting them to dinner parties?  Accepting what they say?  Accepting their credit cards?  Accepting their job application?

I think Christian zionist mean accepting them in service or inviting them to your home for i.e. a dinner party as sign that you have gemeinschaft with them.

This is not possible. Questionable is if you can give them the hand as this is a sign of peace and gemeinschaft.

But there is no problem with accepting their job application or their credit card or if they are expert on a field to listen to them in order to make the right decision.

This are fleshy technical things, where most Christians see no problem with.

However there is no Noahide Law (I suppose you are a Gentile) forbidding to invite a sinner home. On the other hand, there is a Law that a Gentile, besides keeping his own mitzvot, should avoid enticing others (Jews or Gentiles) to violate their respective mitzvot. Would you invite a non-Observant Jew to your home or a dinner where kashrut is not kept, or in a way he'd have to use his car on Shabbat?  Would you invite a Jew and his Gentile partner to a party enticing them to keep on with that forbidden relation?

Difficult question.

According to the believe of my congregation I should not invite any person who does not accept Jesus as his Lord and saviour and who lives not a life according to biblical values to my home.

But I think if some of you JTF Noahides or Jews, to me known since a time, would stand before my door, I would be very happy and invite you in. My best friend is also only a culture-Christian and a kind of deist. I never seperated from him.

I think it would be your decision what to consume or with whom to come.

Althrough interested in Jewish religion and culture and with some knowledge, I would not tell a Jew what Judaism is.

I don't think I would invite Jews or Noahides to my home, who I don't know.

[Rubystars]

I wouldn't invite anyone I didn't know to my home.

[Raulmarrio2000]

Difficult question.

According to the believe of my congregation I should not invite any person who does not accept Jesus as his Lord and saviour and who lives not a life according to biblical values to my home.

But I think if some of you JTF Noahides or Jews, to me known since a time, would stand before my door, I would be very happy and invite you in. My best friend is also only a culture-Christian and a kind of deist. I never seperated from him.

I think it would be your decision what to consume or with whom to come.

Althrough interested in Jewish religion and culture and with some knowledge, I would not tell a Jew what Judaism is.

I don't think I would invite Jews or Noahides to my home, who I don't know.

Your faith orders not to befriend non-Christians? Sorry, but this is similar or even worse than Muslims rules not to befriend non-Mulslims. In fact, a Muslim neighbour (the only Muslim family here), when I was intending to convert, he thought I was already a Jew, and disconected his automatic bell to prevnt me from violating Shabbat.

You wouldn't tell a Jew about Judaism? Why? And why could you tell a Jew what Judaism is? A Jew, even if not observant is supposed to know Judaism better than you. But supposing he received no Jewish education and knows nothing, what's the reason you would not explain Judaism to him if you know a bit?

[Rubystars]

Raul, it's about protecting yourself from influences that could tempt you to sin. It's not about hating people. For example you might not let your kids play with another kid that does bad stuff because you wouldn't want your kids to be influenced by it. Christians are often friends with people of many different faiths though but there is supposed to be some caution as far as allowing other beliefs to influence one's own beliefs.

[Raulmarrio2000]

Raul, it's about protecting yourself from influences that could tempt you to sin. It's not about hating people. For example you might not let your kids play with another kid that does bad stuff because you wouldn't want your kids to be influenced by it. Christians are often friends with people of many different faiths though but there is supposed to be some caution as far as allowing other beliefs to influence one's own beliefs.

A kid playing with another kid who has a misconduct (swearing, misbehaving, or even stealing) might be an issue. An evil person could be also an issue for an adult. But a Jew or a Noahide, just for not being Christian?
I wouldn't invite a Jew to my home, but just to protect him from eating non-kosher food, since as a Gentile I have no kosher items. But keeping away from Jews to avoid "their bad influence"... isn't it discriminatory and anti-Semite?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

A kid playing with another kid who has a misconduct (swearing, misbehaving, or even stealing) might be an issue. An evil person could be also an issue for an adult. But a Jew or a Noahide, just for not being Christian?
I wouldn't invite a Jew to my home, but just to protect him from eating non-kosher food, since as a Gentile I have no kosher items. But keeping away from Jews to avoid "their bad influence"... isn't it discriminatory and anti-Semite?

Raul, he explained himself already. He said he WOULD let Jews and Noahides into his home. Back off.

[Raulmarrio2000]

HE would, but he also says the rules of his congregation forbid it. And Ruby replied that it may be a caution to avoid bad influences.
I am not offended if someone wants to avoid contact with people of a different faith, or he goes to a congregation that advises it. But I am quite inquistive about those issues because, if someone seeks the support of Jews to condemn sinners (sometimes to a further extent than required by the Torah), it would be a quite disagreeable surprise to discover that they might place Jews and Noahides in the same level of condemnation.

[Rubystars]

I would allow Jews to visit me too because I don't think their morality is fundamentally different from my own even though we have different beliefs.

[takebackourtemple]

I wouldn't invite anyone I didn't know to my home.

   I've been invited so many times to people's houses for Shabbat and Yom Tov meals. When I lived in a religious neighborhood, all I had to do was go to any shul and usually five people would invite me to their house for a meal. This was without asking. One of these days when I finally kosher my house, I'm going to invite people from shul.