Gentiles and Mitzvahs

[genteelgentile]

I was searching out websites that list and explain the 613 Commandments that Jews are supposed to follow.  Now, what I am wondering is why are non Jews not required or even forbidden to follow them?  Where I am coming from is the idea that Judaism is the "Light Unto All Nations."  That means to me that Jews should set a good example.  If we are to follow that example, why not let us incorporate such commandments into our lives.  Thank you for any info.

[kahaneloyalist]

I will try to explain through an example; I try to be a good Jew and with all my heart I wish to serve Hashem in the Beit HaMikdash, bringing Karbonot and maintaining the Menorah, but I will never do this, because I am not a Levi or a Cohen. It is not my place, it is not my role and if I would bring a Karbon like a Cohen I would rightly be executed.

So to for the Goyim, Hashem gave 7 commandments incumbent on the rest of humanity. One of the duties of Benai Yisrael is to teach the Sheva Mitzvot Benai Noach to the nations, that is one of the ways we fufill the command to be a light unto the nations. But if a Goy tries to perform the Mitzvot from the Torah they are taking upon themselves things they have no right to, and which will drive them to evil as it will be too much for them and bring them to reject all goodness.

[adam613]

To be honest here if a nonjew wants to keep kosher they can. They only case this exists the death penalty (which has no basis from biblical sources)is with Shabbos. As to why there are differing opinions. Some believe it was only because at that time there was animosity between Jews and Christians and Jews were afraid of christians imitating their practices for bad purposes. It should also be pointed out that a nonjew was never killed for keeping the Shabbos at any point in history so this was never actually carried out.  These prohibitions that Rabbi's established toward nonjews have no basis in biblical sources unlike the prohibition that a Yisrael can't go into the Temple. So it isn't clear as to why they established that nonjews CAN'T keep Shabbos and some feel that it was only because at that time there were issues between Jews and Christians and they were concerned about Christians pretending to be Jewish.  That is what Soncino says. So really a nonjew isn't required for certain obligation but certainlly if they want to have a day of rest or keep certain Kosher because they can although they are not obligated too. Also a negative command can be kept by accident. A person can keep Shabbos by just resting in bed.  Certainlly this was never carried out and I actually believe that in the end times nonjews will likely take some practices from the Israelities although they are not Jews.

[jdl4ever]

I agree with Kahaneloyalist's response.

Genteelgentile, your signature "TORAH... Not just for Jews anymore!!!!!!" makes me sad since the Torah was supposed to be a gift from G-d to his people and was never supposed to be translated from Hebrew into a foreign language.  Ptolomy the King forced the Sanhedrin to translate it into Greek and that's how it was revealed to the nations.  But this was a very sad day for us since this wasn't supposed to happen.  The sanctity of the Torah was trampled on when this happened.

http://www.ou.org/chagim/roshchodesh/tevet/seventy.htm

[Dissenter]

Genteelgentile, your signature "TORAH... Not just for Jews anymore!!!!!!" is depressing since the Torah was supposed to be a gift from G-d to his people and was never supposed to be translated from Hebrew into a foreign language.  Ptolomy the King forced the Sanhedrin to translate it into Greek and that's how it was revealed to the nations.  But this was a very sad day for us since this wasn't supposed to happen.  The sanctity of the Torah was trampled on when this happened.

http://www.ou.org/chagim/roshchodesh/tevet/seventy.htm

Sorry, but I don't buy it.

In the first place, the article questions Ptolemy's motives. But it's well known that he was a scholar who created the world's first great library, at Alexandria, and that he gathered literature into it from all over the Hellenistic world, including what was then called Judea. (The library at its peak contained 500,000 scrolls, including a proof, dating from 200 BCE, that the world is round and has a circumference of 25,000 miles, a figure in error by less than 1%.)

In the second place, if the story is true about the 72 sages in 72 rooms, then Ptolemy used a time-honored method of scholarship, comparing and contrasting independent sources. (When the Zend Avesta, the Zoroastrian bible, was written down not long afterward, by the Persian kings, the same technique was used.)

The article also claims, quite illogically, that G-d allowed the sages to create a perfect translation of the Torah, but at the same time was angry that the "secret" would be let out.

(In fact, isn't the translation imperfect, as for example when "virgin" is confused with "maiden"? So did the 72 sages miraculously duplicate each other's mistakes?)

Finally, the article makes the claim that nobody but a Hebrew-speaker, perhaps only a Hebrew-speaking Jew, can understand the Torah, even though a miraculously perfect translation is available, at least in Greek.

There are even Jews who claim that without a thorough knowledge of the gigantic Talmud, an understanding of the Bible is completely impossible. This news, I'm sure, will come as a surprise to many who believe that they've been reading the Bible with comprehension over many long years.

It was a classic dodge in ancient times for priesthoods to claim exclusive ownership of the mysterious and esoteric lore required to guarantee salvation. For Jews, or anyone else, to claim that they have such knowledge immediately invites all sorts of unfortunate accusations.

[kahaneloyalist]

Genteelgentile, your signature "TORAH... Not just for Jews anymore!!!!!!" is depressing since the Torah was supposed to be a gift from G-d to his people and was never supposed to be translated from Hebrew into a foreign language.  Ptolomy the King forced the Sanhedrin to translate it into Greek and that's how it was revealed to the nations.  But this was a very sad day for us since this wasn't supposed to happen.  The sanctity of the Torah was trampled on when this happened.

http://www.ou.org/chagim/roshchodesh/tevet/seventy.htm

Sorry, but I don't buy it.

In the first place, the article questions Ptolemy's motives. But it's well known that he was a scholar who created the world's first great library, at Alexandria, and that he gathered literature into it from all over the Hellenistic world, including what was then called Judea. (The library at its peak contained 500,000 scrolls, including a proof, dating from 200 BCE, that the world is round and has a circumference of 25,000 miles, a figure in error by less than 1%.)

In the second place, if the story is true about the 72 sages in 72 rooms, then Ptolemy used a time-honored method of scholarship, comparing and contrasting independent sources. (When the Zend Avesta, the Zoroastrian bible, was written down not long afterward, by the Persian kings, the same technique was used.)

The article also claims, quite illogically, that G-d allowed the sages to create a perfect translation of the Torah, but at the same time was angry that the "secret" would be let out.

(In fact, isn't the translation imperfect, as for example when "virgin" is confused with "maiden"? So did the 72 sages miraculously duplicate each other's mistakes?)

Finally, the article makes the claim that nobody but a Hebrew-speaker, perhaps only a Hebrew-speaking Jew, can understand the Torah, even though a miraculously perfect translation is available, at least in Greek.

There are even Jews who claim that without a thorough knowledge of the gigantic Talmud, an understanding of the Bible is completely impossible. This news, I'm sure, will come as a surprise to many who believe that they've been reading the Bible with comprehension over many long years.

It was a classic dodge in ancient times for priesthoods to claim exclusive ownership of the mysterious and esoteric lore required to guarantee salvation. For Jews, or anyone else, to claim that they have such knowledge immediately invites all sorts of unfortunate accusations.

The intial translation was perfect over time mistakes entered the translation, culminating in the intentional and comical mistranslations of the early Christians to justify Christianity.

Of course understanding the Torah SheBikhsav is impossible without Torah SheBaal Peh, and yes the Goyim who stole our Holy Torah dont actually understand what is going on in the Tanach. Any Jew can understand the Torah, and in ancient times there were local schools in every town so that all Jewish men could read and be able to learn Torah on their own, there was no exclusive elite which kept power over the people as Christians try to claim as if the Jews would run to Christianity but for their evil Rabbi overlords.

Make whatever accusations you want, we dont care.

[Dissenter]

Of course understanding the Torah SheBikhsav [the written law] is impossible without Torah SheBaal Peh [the oral law, compiled in the Talmud], and yes the Goyim who stole our Holy Torah dont actually understand what is going on in the Tanach. Any Jew can understand the Torah, and in ancient times there were local schools in every town so that all Jewish men could read and be able to learn Torah on their own, there was no exclusive elite which kept power over the people as Christians try to claim as if the Jews would run to Christianity but for their evil Rabbi overlords.

Make whatever accusations you want, we dont care.

If the Hebrew Bible is vital to the world's salvation, then how could the world have "stolen" it?

Are you saying that only a Jew is worthy of casting his eyes on it, and on the massive Talmud which, as you claim, is vital to its understanding?

Furthermore, must one be a Jew to understand it? A Jew, and not merely a speaker of Hebrew - as some non-Jews are?

And are you saying that even a Jew can't understand it without rabbinical guidance?

And if your rabbis hold the keys to your scripture, then aren't you bound to accept whatever they tell you about it?

And if a Gentile isn't worthy to gaze on it - much less capable of understanding it - then mustn't he rely on Jews to tell him how to save himself?

[kahaneloyalist]

Of course understanding the Torah SheBikhsav [the written law] is impossible without Torah SheBaal Peh [the oral law, compiled in the Talmud], and yes the Goyim who stole our Holy Torah dont actually understand what is going on in the Tanach. Any Jew can understand the Torah, and in ancient times there were local schools in every town so that all Jewish men could read and be able to learn Torah on their own, there was no exclusive elite which kept power over the people as Christians try to claim as if the Jews would run to Christianity but for their evil Rabbi overlords.

Make whatever accusations you want, we dont care.

If the Hebrew Bible is vital to the world's salvation, then how could the world have "stolen" it?

Are you saying that only a Jew is worthy of casting his eyes on it, and on the massive Talmud which, as you claim, is vital to its understanding?

Furthermore, must one be a Jew to understand it? A Jew, and not merely a speaker of Hebrew - as some non-Jews are?

And are you saying that even a Jew can't understand it without rabbinical guidance?

And if your rabbis hold the keys to your scripture, then aren't you bound to accept whatever they tell you about it?

And if a Gentile isn't worthy to gaze on it - much less capable of understanding it - then mustn't he rely on Jews to tell him how to save himself?

If the Hebrew Bible is vital to the world's salvation, then how could the world have "stolen" it?

The Goyim had no right to the Torah, it was given to the Jewish people and the Jewish people alone. There are certain laws which apply to the Goyim which are recorded in the Torah, but the knowledge of them existed even before the Torah as it was revealed to Adam HaRishon. It is the duty of the Jewish people to spread the Sheva Mitzvot Benai Noach and the duty of the Goyim to follow the Sheva Mitzvot Benai Noach, but that in way means Goyim have any right to the Torah.

Are you saying that only a Jew is worthy of casting his eyes on it, and on the massive Talmud which, as you claim, is vital to its understanding?

As for casting eyes on the Torah, there is a makhloket among the Rabbanim on what level Goyim may learn Torah, most would agree that they are allowed to learn on the inside the portions directly relevant to the Sheva Mitzvot Benai Noach. But even so what Goyim may view from the Gemara is strictly limited, even according to the most lenient of opinions.

Furthermore, must one be a Jew to understand it? A Jew, and not merely a speaker of Hebrew - as some non-Jews are?

To truly understand the Torah a person must be a Jew, yes, otherwise a proper understanding is impossible.

And are you saying that even a Jew can't understand it without rabbinical guidance?

To understand the Torah Rabbinical guidance is necessary for only through them can the explanations given through Moshe Rabbenu himself be passed on. In what is know as Mesorah the knowledge is passed on from the generation of the past that is closer to Har Sinai.

And if your rabbis hold the keys to your scripture, then aren't you bound to accept whatever they tell you about it?

Any Jew may learn the Torah but if the Sanhedrin would make a decision all of Benai Yisrael is bound to follow their commands but any Jew may sit on the Sanhedrin the only measure of worthiness for such a position is that Jews strength in Torah.

And if a Gentile isn't worthy to gaze on it - much less capable of understanding it - then mustn't he rely on Jews to tell him how to save himself?

What do you think a Ben Noach like Jimmy Sullivan does? He has accepted the Torah is the truth but that he is not a Jew.

[Dissenter]

Thanks for taking the trouble to answer my questions. I've also done a little research on my own. However, I'm more confused than ever.

In the first place, it seems to me that if a Gentile is to accept the seven laws of Noah (and the antecendent six laws of Adam), then he must accept that the Talmud is correct in its delineation of them. And he must accept this on faith, believing that the Talmud is divinely inspired, without actually having made a study of it, or at least of any part of it having to do with anything but the Noahide laws.

In the second place, if there is disagreement among the rabbinic sages themselves as to what exactly constitutes the seven laws and their "subdivisions" - whether, for example, trees should be mixed, or whether horses should be mated with donkeys to produce mules, or whether castration should be practiced (even in the cases of rapists and pedophiles) - then how is the Noahide, particularly the Noahide incapable of reading Hebrew, to know what to do and what not to do?

In the third place, and most importantly, it's my understanding that Gentiles are merely forbidden from carrying out the 613 commandments. Studying them is another matter altogether, because the Noahide who properly obeys the laws given to the Gentiles becomes himself as righteous as the greatest rabbinic sage.

[jdl4ever]

Noahides believe in one G-d and obey the 7 Noahide laws.  Noahides were around before the Bible was given to us Jews, so the Bible was never supposed to be studied by non Jews.  The Bible was a present from G-d to his chosen people and G-d gave his chosen people more commandments and restrictions to keep since he thinks we are special and he wants us to emulate him.  Kahaneloyalist is correct in that there are those who say that portions of the Bible relating to Noahides should be studied by them.

Noah and Adam are examples of Noahides.  The problem is that the Noahide tradition of what those 7 laws are was lost since all of the Noahides basically turned to Idol worship and lost the definition of what a Noahaide is.  Only us Jews still know about the concept of a Noahide and what the 7 categories of laws are.  Whatever is the accepted laws are in Judaism is what they are.  As for the Torah, only a Jew who understands Hebrew and who understands the Talmud can understand the Torah.  That does not mean you have to memorize the entire Talmud.  If you don't understand something, then you look at a commentary written by an ancient sage on the verse which summarizes the oral tradition for that verse.  Or you look can look up that specific portion in the Talmud. 

[Lubab]

I was searching out websites that list and explain the 613 Commandments that Jews are supposed to follow.  Now, what I am wondering is why are non Jews not required or even forbidden to follow them?  Where I am coming from is the idea that Judaism is the "Light Unto All Nations."  That means to me that Jews should set a good example.  If we are to follow that example, why not let us incorporate such commandments into our lives.  Thank you for any info.

To GenteelGentile:
I'm going to answer this as if it were the first post after the question. I haven't read the debate going on now carefully enough to really weigh in on it, but maybe when you read this it will clear up some things.

Here is my two cents:

Let’s start with the premise that since G-d created us He knows what’s best for us. He gave us certain characteristics and qualities and He gave us all the jobs that perfectly fit with who we are. When we fulfill OUR job, this is how we are going to be the most happy and fulfilled and successful because it’s in line with our purpose in this world. 

 As someone said before, some Jews were given the job to work in the Temple and some were not. Even within that, some were given certain jobs to do in the Temple and some other jobs. In this way everything went smoothly and beautifully. Each one was equally necessary to do their own particular job. If everyone decided to be a High Priest, it would be chaos, and nobody would be happy.

This is like an army, where everyone has a very specific role and when everyone does their exact role it all works together like a perfect machine.  It’s also compared to a body, where each organ has a specific role and when a body’s cells starts doing the jobs of other cells, I think you know what kind of terrible consequences that can have…

Being a "light unto the nations" does NOT mean we get everyone to copy the Jews. That would be ridiculous. It means it's our job to help each person get closer to G-d in the way best way for them. Each person with their own unique mission.

With that said, if you feel you have a really good handle on the 7 Laws (not as simple as you think) Noachides may do the Mitzvos. Not because you're commanded, but as a bonus. The only Mitzvah Noachides cannot do is Shabbat (and there is some debate in the Talmud about whether they may put on Tefillin). Even Shabbat, can be done, but not in the way that Jews do it. You could for instance, make you're own reminder about how G-d created the world in 6 days by reading the account of Creation, for instance. But again, this is not necessary and it is recommended you learn more about being a proper Noachide first.

You only have 7 laws. And though they may seem simple (6 out of 7 are negative commandments) by fulfilling them as G-d's will and helping others to do them too, you are bringing the world to a state of perfection and making it ready for true redemption. More on that another time.

Now, in truth, you are right. The Torah is not nor ever was on for the Jews. Being a Noachide means you will need to learn a lot of Torah relating to you're specific laws. For instance, you ironically will need to learn the basics laws of Shabbat to ensure that you are NOT observing it.

It is also very important to learn the Torah sources about our belief in one G-d as you have an obligation not to worship idols, and if you're not worshiping the true one G-d...you're worshiping idols.

And you may even learn Jewish laws about our Mitzvos if you feel you want to take one on as I said before.

Incidentally, I once saw an interesting Medresh which says that the whole reason why gentiles hate Jews so much is because we don't teach them the Torah, they think we are hording it to ourselves.  So holding back Torah for ourselves when we are not supposed to can be a very detrimental thing.

NOTE: Ptolmey's time was not the first time the Torah was translated. In fact Moses was instructed by G-d to translate the Torah in ALL SEVENTY LANGUAGES and leave it for the gentile nations to learn. (see Rashi Beir HeTev). There is no problem with the Torah being tranlated.  The problem with the translation in Ptolmey's time was that the Rabbis were FORCED to translate it, and Ptolmey was going to be looking at their translations to make problems for the Jews. To avoid this the Rabbis had to water things down and this was the tragedy.  (If you look in the Talmudic commentaries on this event, they support what I'm telling you and not what that OU article said about the reason for the tragedy. I do think that parts of that article represent a kind of elitist "Torah for Jews only" attitude that is prevalent but I do not believe to be backed up by the Torah sources on these topics at all and can cause unnecesary hatred).

Hope this was helpful. And a good day to you.

[Dissenter]

The Bible was a present from G-d to his chosen people and G-d gave his chosen people more commandments and restrictions to keep since he thinks we are special and he wants us to emulate him.

According to Chaim, it was a burden as well as a gift, and it was given to the Jews not because G-d thinks that Jews are "special" (i.e., better) than Gentiles, but because Jews have one role to play in the world to come and Gentiles have another. Both Jews and Gentiles, in other words, are equally capable of emulating G-d. 

Only us Jews still know about the concept of a Noahide and what the 7 categories of laws are.  Whatever is the accepted laws are in Judaism is what they are.

Even though, as I've said, there's dispute among the sages as to exactly what the laws are? And even though the authoritative Jewish judiciary, the Sanhedrin, no longer exists?

As for the Torah, only a Jew who understand Hebrew and who understands the Talmud can understand the Torah.

So in other words, as Kahane Loyalist has said, even the brightest and most righteous Hebrew-speaking Gentile is incapable of doing what any Hebrew-speaking Jew, even a questionable one, is capable of doing?

That does not mean you have to memorize the entire Talmud.  If you don't understand something, then you look at a commentary written by an ancient sage on the verse which summarizes the oral tradition for that verse.  Or you look can look up that specific portion in the Talmud.

Which opens an entirely set of questions. If there's disagreement even among the Talmudic sages about the meaning of Torah, then how can you, not a sage, make your own judgment on it?

And if there's disagreement, then somebody's obviously right, and somebody's obviously wrong. (In fact, perhaps they're both wrong.) So - as I asked on another thread - what makes them, even in consensus, infallible authorities, worthy almost of apotheosis?

[Dissenter]

I do think that parts of that article represent a kind of elitist "Torah for Jews only" attitude that is prevalent but I do not believe to be backed up by the Torah sources on these topics at all and can cause unnecesary hatred.

Thanks for your comments, Lubab. They were helpful.

[jdl4ever]

Dissenter, I'll try to explain some things to you:

1.  Both Gentiles and Jews who are Righteous will go to heaven.  However, Jews have a higher potential than Gentiles since they are special since they have a special gift from G-d (the Torah) which has many more times the commandments and restrictions that Gentiles have.  It is logical that if someone is able to fight against his evil inclination and undergo more restrictions, he is rewarded more than someone who has less restrictions.  Does that mean that all Jews will have a higher place in heaven then Gentiles?  No.  It all depends on the individual.  Some Gentiles who are excessively righteous will reach a higher level in heaven than a righteous Jew. 

2.  You don't understand a fundamental concept in Judaism about disagreement.  In Judaism, we believe that G-d wants the Torah to grow (there is a Biblical verse that says this but I forgot the source).  What does this mean?  It means that the Torah is infinite meaning that infinite amount of information can be derived from it using logical rules of derivation.  These logical rules of derivation are expounded by the sages.  Therefore, we don't look at argument as something bad, we look at argument as a wonderful thing that G-d delights in since it makes the Torah grow.  When two authorities argue over a Biblical or Halachic concept, after the argument is over, the Torah grows exponentially since the Sages expand the Torah when they are engaged in strengthening there own argument, trying to disprove the other argument with Biblical sources, uncovering brand new concepts in the Torah to strengthen there argument etc.  Most of the Talmud is actually long arguments that go on for dozens of pages.  Through these arguments, most of the Talmud was written and much of the Oral Law was recovered.  If we all had prophesy and everything was perfectly clear and simple, most Jews would have no reason to spend days on end trying to uncover new concepts in the Torah since everything would be clear.  This is why G-d made argument, to expand the Torah.  G-d loves when people are engaged in the Torah.

3. As for "How can we decide the law with arguments"; The answer is simple, we go with the accepted ruling. For all the Talmud arguments we have an accepted ruling on who is correct.  You don't understand what the Rabbis argue about in the Talmud.  They usually argue about minor points.  Most of the time they agree on major issues but only argue on the fine concepts of a Biblical commandment or a Rabbinical commandment. 

[jdl4ever]

Lubab, the Talmud Megilla 9a is opposed to your viewpoint that Moses wanted to translate the Torah into 71 languages (where is the source; who is "Rashi Bar Hetav"?).  The Talmud says that the Torah can only be translated into Greek and no other language because of the incident with Ptolomy.  Which implies that without this incident, it would be forbidden to even translate the Torah into Greek and the Talmud says the Law is like this opinion.  This proves that I am correct. 

[Dissenter]

1.  Both Gentiles and Jews who are Righteous will go to heaven.  However, Jews have a higher potential than Gentiles since they are special since they have a special gift from G-d (the Torah) which has many more times the commandments and restrictions that Gentiles have.  It is logical that if someone is able to fight against his evil inclination and undergo more restrictions, he is rewarded more than someone who has less restrictions.  Does that mean that all Jews will have a higher place in heaven then Gentiles?  No.  It all depends on the individual.  Some Gentiles who are excessively righteous will reach a higher level in heaven than a righteous Jew.

So does that mean that here on earth, Jews in general are by definition more righteous than Gentiles in general, even though the Talmud states that a Gentile who keeps the seven laws is no less righteous than the Jewish high priest?

In other words, when it comes to fighting against the earth's evils, does a Gentile have an easier time of it than a Jew?

Now that you mention it, I do remember Chaim saying once that when a Jew is righteous, he's better than the best of the Gentiles - and that when he's evil, he's worse than the worst of them.

2.  You don't understand a fundamental concept in Judaism about disagreement.  In Judaism, we believe that G-d wants the Torah to grow (there is a Biblical verse that says this but I forgot the source).  What does this mean?  It means that the Torah is infinite meaning that infinite amount of information can be derived from it using logical rules of derivation.  These logical rules of derivation are expounded by the sages.  Therefore, we don't look at argument as something bad, we look at argument as a wonderful thing that G-d delights in since it makes the Torah grow.  When two authorities argue over a Biblical or Halachic concept, after the argument is over, the Torah grows exponentially since the Sages expand the Torah when they are engaged in strengthening there own argument, trying to disprove the other argument with Biblical sources, uncovering brand new concepts in the Torah to strengthen there argument etc.  Most of the Talmud is actually long arguments that go on for dozens of pages.  Through these arguments, most of the Talmud was written and much of the Oral Law was recovered.  If we all had prophesy and everything was perfectly clear and simple, most Jews would have no reason to spend days on end trying to uncover new concepts in the Torah since everything would be clear.  This is why G-d made argument, to expand the Torah.  G-d loves when people are engaged in the Torah.

I've got nothing against argument, as you can tell by my user name. But if the Talmud was compiled some 1,400 years ago, does that mean that no brand-new concepts of any major importance have been uncovered since then? And if they have been uncovered, then what process was used for validating and enshrining them, as the next best thing to prophecy?

3. As for "How can we decide the law with arguments"; The answer is simple, we go with the accepted ruling. For all the Talmud arguments we have an accepted ruling on who is correct.  You don't understand what the Rabbis argue about in the Talmud.  They usually argue about minor points.  Most of the time they agree on major issues but only argue on the fine concepts of a Biblical commandment or a Rabbinical commandment.

I assumed from the first that the Talmudic debates were on fine points "most of the time." But what about the rest of the time? If there are major disagreements some of the time, doesn't that tend to throw everything into a cocked hat, at least to the dispassionate observer?

Basically, what you've been saying is that nobody can understand the Bible but the Jews, and that "some of the time," even the Jews - for all of their special powers - can't understand it, either.

[jdl4ever]

You are correct.  The Talmud is not the end of the oral law.  After the Talmud was written, the Rabbis have uncovered new things many times over the volume of the Talmud.  I myself have uncovered new things too.  The problem that you see is correct, how do we know the validity of such claims?  That is why there are Jews who believe in different Rabbis as authorities, since they accept certain viewpoints and not others.  This is why you have Kahanists, Lubovitchers, Yeshiva University people, Charedim, Chassidim etc.

The general rule is the older the commentary, the more universally accepted it is.  Everyone accepts the Talmud since the Rabbis in the Talmud were immense Torah Giants and had the collective wisdom above any future commentary.  Everyone accepts at least most of Maimonities (1100's), and Rashi (900's) since these were brilliant ancient commentaries.  The closer you get to modern times, the less universal the commentaries are since the wisdom of the generations generally declines.  Even though the modern commentaries are not universal, their are still brilliant discoveries in each of them even if you don't agree with most of that commentary. 

Basically, what you've been saying is that nobody can understand the Bible but the Jews, and that "some of the time," even the Jews - for all of their special powers - can't understand it, either.

Exactly.  Tradition has it that even Moses didn't comprehend all of the Torah even though no one understood more of the Torah than Moses our teacher.  Only G-d himself understands the Torah in its entirety since keeping the Torah and understanding it is a way of emulating and understanding G-d and only G-d himself fully understands his oneness. 

I assumed from the first that the Talmudic debates were on fine points "most of the time." But what about the rest of the time? If there are major disagreements some of the time, doesn't that tend to throw everything into a cocked hat, at least to the dispassionate observer?

Usually the Talmud states outright which opinion won the argument and which one is correct on the major arguments.  If it doesn't state which one is correct and it isn't obvious which Rabbi won the argument then the ancient commentaries tell you which opinion the Rabbis accepted. 

This is not to say that everything is crystal clear in our generation.  There is still massive debate among Rabbis on a lot of major things in our generation (as you can see) but this is mostly due to the decline of the generations since they should not be debating obvious things that ancient commentaries saw as clear cut.  800 years ago there wasn't anything close to this much debate on obvious things like the land of Israel and defeating our enemies.  (I don't want to say this, but many Rabbis today are not anything close to what a Rabbi should be and would be stepped on by a Rabbi such as Maimonitites.  R' Kahane Zs'l is an example of what a Rabbi is supposed to be.  If all the Rabbis were like him, they wouldn't be arguing about obvious things.)

[Lubab]

Lubab, the Talmud Megilla 9a is opposed to your viewpoint that Moses wanted to translate the Torah into 71 languages (where is the source; who is "Rashi Bar Hetav"?).  The Talmud says that the Torah can only be translated into Greek and no other language because of the incident with Ptolomy.  Which implies that without this incident, it would be forbidden to even translate the Torah into Greek and the Talmud says the Law is like this opinion.  This proves that I am correct. 

He did not "want" to translate it, he DID translate it in 70 (not 71) languages.
See Rashi on Chumash Parshas Devorim 1:5 entitled "Beer Es HaTorah Hazos". I think there is another Rashi  somewhere called "Beer Hetev"-i.e. "well clarified" and I was referring to that one.

I looked this one up for you, but I'm afraid I won't have the time to do this most of the time and you will have to take my word for it or ask your own Rabbi for the source if you don't trust me.  But for the record, I won't say something if I don't know it's backed up, though I might not know the exact source always. 

I think what you're saying about the gemarah is right, but in later generations all the Rabbis agreed that we now translate the Chumash freely and the gemarah too.

[genteelgentile]

Thanks so much for your responses!!  Thank you for your patience.  As I write this, I am amazed that my question got so much response.  I will have to go back later to read in full, as I have to eat dinner.                                                                                             Oh by the way, JDL, I mean no offense by the signature. I was inspired by a Chassidic hip hop group called Ta Shma.  There is a line in one of their songs where they say, "You think the Torah's just for Jews, but you got it confused."  And I of course, tried to put a little fun twist on it.

[kahaneloyalist]

So does that mean that here on earth, Jews in general are by definition more righteous than Gentiles in general, even though the Talmud states that a Gentile who keeps the seven laws is no less righteous than the Jewish high priest?

Dissenter, the Gemara was being very precise in its words, for the Cohen Gadol is not the most righteous Jew of his generation, that honor was generally held by the Nasi of the Sanhedrin.

[adam613]

Could someone give me a BIBLICAL source for this idea that nonjews can't immitate Jewish ideas? They don't HAVE to keep all the mitzvahs but if they want to keep certain concepts of Kosher and a day of rest or the idea of not having intercourse during the week of menstration and the week after what is the problem is that. The talmud has to prove their source from the tanach. Otherwise you are Rabbi's into g-d's which I think is contrary to what Judaism is suppose to be. The Rabbi's today aren't perfect and I don't honestly believe they were in prior times times and that is why Rabbi's have to prove their point from the 5 books of moses. Otherwise it is a Rabbinic Laws which basically means at some point Rabbi's were worried about nonjews immitating Jews partly because of the times. That is just my two cents. I don't agree with kahaneloyalist. Even great Rabbi's can be wrong sometimes and this concept has no basis in the 5 books of Moses from what I can see. I am sorry if I am picking on kanaeloyalist he was just the last poster and I didn't read this word for word although I get a general idea that I don't agree with here.

[Lubab]

Could someone give me a BIBLICAL source for this idea that nonjews can't immitate Jewish ideas? They don't HAVE to keep all the mitzvahs but if they want to keep certain concepts of Kosher and a day of rest or the idea of not having intercourse during the week of menstration and the week after what is the problem is that. ...

There is no problem, Noachides may take on Jewish mitzvot (except for Shabbat and maybe tefillin) though it is not obligitory or neccesary. They should master the Noachide laws first. See my post above.

[adam613]

Well even with Shabbos if you turn one light on you could spend the rest of the day keeping Shabbos anyway. That is what converts have done to not keep Shabbos according to the Rabbi's that felt it was problem. They turn one light on and they keep Shabbos. Although, again, the reasoning behind this according to some was simply because Jews were concerned about people who were not Jewish pretending to be Jewish in order to inform on Jews. And certain parts of Shabbos are irrelevent to nonjews anyway and yes they would want to change the prayer anyway. We say a prayer on wine referring to the Jewish people a gentile would say a different prayer relating to it. Certianlly if nonjews want to use the Shabbos as a day reflect and not deal with work matters they can. Just as g-d created the world in six days and rested on the seventh.

[Lubab]

Well even with Shabbos if you turn one light on you could spend the rest of the day keeping Shabbos anyway. That is what converts have done to not keep Shabbos according to the Rabbi's that felt it was problem. They turn one light on and they keep Shabbos. Although, again, the reasoning behind this according to some was simply because Jews were concerned about people who were not Jewish pretending to be Jewish in order to inform on Jews. And certain parts of Shabbos are irrelevent to nonjews anyway and yes they would want to change the prayer anyway. We say a prayer on wine referring to the Jewish people a gentile would say a different prayer relating to it. Certianlly if nonjews want to use the Shabbos as a day reflect and not deal with work matters they can. Just as g-d created the world in six days and rested on the seventh.

I have heard from major halachic authorities that it is a problem for non-Jews to do this "trick" where they turn on one light and keep the rest of the Shabbos. This is still a big problem because Noachides are not supposed to have a day where they stop working. If they want to recognize the fact that G-d created the world in 6 days they can do so in other ways such as by learning about the account of Creation, lighting 7 candels or whatever they want. They can create their own personal way of remembering this fact, but should not take a day off the way Jews do even if they will break the Shabbos in some small way. G-d needs the Noachides in the field settling the world, every day. 

[adam613]

All I can say Lubab I guess I have a problem with that because study after study have shown that it isn't healthy to work seven days a week and be all work all the time. Why would g-d himself take a day to rest and forbid nonjews to have one day for more spiritual pursuits. They don't have to keep it the way Jews do but I can't honestly belive that it would be a sin for a nonjew to have a day to reflect on other matters other then work.


And as I said to begin with the whole concept is Rabbinic based on fears related to Christians at that time. There is no where in the Tanach that it says anything near to the sense that it is forbidden to keep the Shabbos nor do I see any Rabbi bring biblical proof to this fact unless I missed something here. To satisfy the Rabbi's you can turn one light on or drive or whatever but still to take one day easier then the rest of the week and not devote it to work but to other ideas at least in my opinion I can't see what the problem is.

Finally sad to say Lubab that some Rabbi's do seem to try to create rifts between different people (men and women, jew and nonjew) becuase of their own insecurities. I have had a lot of HORRIFIC EXPERIENCES WITH RABBI'S. I was dating a women who converted about 9 month ago. Her father was Jewish her mothers wasn't. Anyway the Rabbi's asked her WHY RABBI"S RULE THAT HAVING CHILDREN IS THE MAN'S MITZVAH. Which of course they wanted her to say because men don't care about having children and woman do want children. They want her to think men are terrible. Why do they focus on a Rabbinic thing like that our of all issues. Would they focus on a Rabbinic saying that was negative on women? Why focus on this out of all things. It doesn't really matter anyway. I didn't even know this until a few years ago. Why do the Rabbi's focus on something as minor as this. I think it is just to bash the men and teach women to hate men so they can run to the Rabbi's? They are frightened by other men. As I said in the end it's academic anyway because it requires a man and a woman to have a child anyway and if women don't want children men can't have children and if g-d asks the man why he didn't have a child and he tried and woman he dated didn't want children I would think the women are going to be held responsible for that for. If you prevent someone for fulfilling a command you are responsible for that. Of course if Rabbi's are  brainwashing the women they will also be held responsible. I also did mention the fact below on menstration why women are considered impure during the time of menstration and the reasoning seems very consistant with other biblical principles in interpreting the Torah.