What is your opinion on the IDF?

[Yaakov Mendel]

2) There are true Israeli patriots who are not religious, and it would be an infringement on their liberty of conscience to force them to attend a Yeshiva

True patriots.  Truly ignorant ones.

The character of army service changing to incorporate Jewish eduction into its program would be very positive, and it's certainly NOT an infringement of liberty more than any other govt program, govt sponsored education etc etc.   It really doesn't make sense to make anything associated with Judaism into some kind of taboo under the umbrella of "religion!" ooh spooky.   If they can teach you how to load a weapon, they can force you to clean the base and peel potatoes, and none of these things are infringement on your liberties, then teaching you something about your heritage and why you're even there in the army in the first place - that they can also do.

K-W-T BT,

As I said in this thread, I am personally in favour of more Jewish instruction. It's appalling to see the number of young Israelis who know close to nothing about Judaism in a so-called Jewish state. I am not sure, though, that making a religious curriculum compulsory in the army is a good move. In my opinion, one must start filling the vacuum sooner - at school. Otherwise, if you impose Jewish instruction on young adults whose mindsets have been made completely secular by the state educational system, they will resent it. And that is not the right way to open their minds.

[Yaakov Mendel]

This thread started with military service. Now, very broadly speaking, about the IDF (since that is the initial question) :

To me, the main issue is that the IDF must become again the dreaded and respected army it once briefly was. The problem with the IDF today is that it does not act enough as a deterrent. Its credibility is undermined in the eyes of our ennemies. In that respect, the failures of the second Lebanon war did a lot of harm to us : an advanced country that invests so much money, research, workforce into its military is not even able to defeat Hezbollah ??
Israelis care too much about world opinion, which is absurd, since Israel is always condemned, whatever she does. Ironically, an army that takes so much trouble not to make "collateral damage" to our ennemies is viewed as the opposite by a large part of world opinion - an army that murders innocent Arab women and children 

The whole focus must be shifted :

- Let's forget about world opinion, let's care about the security of Jews instead. Let us stop pandering to viciously antisemitic media networks around the world, stop apologizing when Arabs die as a result of wars that we never wanted or initiated, stop feeling obliged to account to people who are biased against us

- Let us stop endangering the lives of Israeli soldiers in an effort to spare Arabs : it is not our fault if our ennemies choose to fight and hide within densely populated areas, we would be happy to take them on in open space, they are the ones to blame for civilian casualties, not us. Besides, these Arab "civilians" hate us and would slaughter us if they had the chance to, so they are "innocent".

- Let's get rid of that insane habit of retreating just when we are about to win and really change facts on the ground. If that means proceeding without the approval of the US, let's do it !

The main responsibility in the overall decline of the IDF comes from a political leadership that lacks both vision and courage.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "So if someone thinks that by going to live in the state of Israel, even by "making aliyah" in the political sense that the state today defines that, is achieving redemption for themself and they achieve the actual mitzvah of aliyah, then that is true.  They are correct in thinking that. "

No - this is NOT correct.

Jews who think that are redeemed by their moving to the Land of Israel, and living in the Land of Israel are incorrect and living in self-deception.

Aliyah means "ascension" - meaning both the physical bodily ascent to Jerusalem, along with the "spiritual ascension" achieved by a Jew when fulfilling the Torah mitzvah that a Jew must live in Eretz Yisrael (the Land of Israel).

Whether aliyah is fulfilled as Torah mitzvah, or fulfilled as legally defined by The State of Israel from another nation, aliyah is NOT the same concept in Judaism as Redemption.

Redemption means the The Final Redemption of all Jews under King Moshiach, a status yet to take place, which is why The State of Israel is not at present a Jewish State, and which is why the IDF represents the interests of the state rather than The Land and People of Israel.

The Jewish People, according to Torah, are still living in galut (Exile) and that includes all Jews presently living in the State of Israel.

They may indeed be "spritually ascended" by living there, but they are not Redeemed.

And all of the above is precisely why my earlier reply was correct in its entirety -

Without understanding the grammar, semantics, and definitions one uses when discussing the term "Israel", one is immediately lost in a series of unsolvable dilemmas and mental confusion brought on by false presumptions.
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or...

If I am wrong as some would like to insist, then THE STATE OF ISRAEL has now ended the Exile, and has supplanted and now incorporates all of the following:

Torah Judaism,
Am Yisrael,
Eretz Yisrael.

Therefore the Israeli Government is Jewish Government, the IDF is the Jewish Army, and every Jew in Israel is now living in The Redemption and in need of nothing.

So, why the complaints and dissatisfaction?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Re:  "So if someone thinks that by going to live in the state of Israel, even by "making aliyah" in the political sense that the state today defines that, is achieving redemption for themself and they achieve the actual mitzvah of aliyah, then that is true.  They are correct in thinking that. "

No - this is NOT correct.

Jews who think that are redeemed by their moving to the Land of Israel, and living in the Land of Israel are incorrect and living in self-deception.

Aliyah means "ascension" - meaning both the physical bodily ascent to Jerusalem, along with the "spiritual ascension" achieved by a Jew when fulfilling the Torah mitzvah that a Jew must live in Eretz Yisrael (the Land of Israel).   

And if you "make aliyah" by Israeli legal standards, the end result is that you live in part of Eretz Yisrael.   You fulfill the mitzvah regardless of who has governing authority over the land of Israel.    And you have personally left the exile, which is actually a place/places.

Whether aliyah is fulfilled as Torah mitzvah, or fulfilled as legally defined by The State of Israel from another nation, aliyah is NOT the same concept in Judaism as Redemption. 

It is the first step of redemption.  One step of redemption is the ingathering of the exiles.  This has already happened to such an extent that very close to 50% of world Jewry is living in the land of Israel.  That is one of the steps of redemption, regardless of whether we are fully redeemed with a Beth HaMikdash or not.

Redemption means the The Final Redemption of all Jews under King Moshiach,

No, Final Redemption means Final Redemption, and redemption means redemption.   The word redeem literally means to bring out of the exile.   That word "geula" - redemption - has a meaning in Hebrew, and it has nothing to do with moschiah as a plain word.   We happen to know that the full redemption will be complete with the coming of Moshiah.   That does NOT mean that ingathering of exiles is not redemption.  That's the definition of the word!

I've heard others speak similarly to you, however this clearly makes words lose meaning, and we speak in nonsense terms by calling things their opposites.

a status yet to take place, which is why The State of Israel is not at present a Jewish State,

which is why in the metaphysical sense?   I can't speculate about why in that sense.   Maybe it's some other reason that the state of Israel does not operate as it should as a Jewish state, but instead as a state of Jews, maybe because we have merited it that way.  Maybe because the Jewish people lives with illusions and mistaken views.  Maybe because we are not pious enough or not righteous enough.  Only G-d can know that "why."  

Theoretically speaking, though, there's no reason why there can't be a Jewish state before moshiah, as a rule.  It just so happens that the current formulation of the state of Israel is not ideal, and we are also in the pre-moshiach days. 

and which is why the IDF represents the interests of the state rather than The Land and People of Israel. 

Again, it's pointless to speculate mystically.   You or I or anyone else cannot know WHY the IDF acts the way it does rather than ideally, other than what we have evidence for.   We have evidence that the people who run the governing of the state of Israel designed the IDF this way and command it this way.   That is the only "why" we can possibly know (not from G-d's point of view, from ours).   It makes no sense to say 'Moshiach is not here yet, therefore the IDF can't possibly act in the interests of the Jewish people.'  If Israel gains different leadership, and operating principles are changed, the army certainly can act as a jewish army in the interests of the Jewish people, before Moshiach arrives.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The Jewish People, according to Torah, are still living in galut (Exile) and that includes all Jews presently living in the State of Israel.

That's simply not true.  There are halachic implications of living in the land of Israel rather than the lands of the exile, regardless of whether redemption is complete or full yet.   Regardless of if the Beth Hamikdash stands or doesn't (of course more implications with each successive layer of redemption complete that is fulfilled - however, even the simple ingathering of exiles has huge ramifications, especially when we reach 50% of the world's Jews in the Land of Israel, for this is a "giant leap" in the Jewish law).

In terms of Jewish law, a Jew living in Eretz Yisrael is NOT living in exile.  He's doing the opposite.  He's living in Eretz Yisrael.   If he leaves G-d forbid, then he has gone into exile.

What we see in our day is an incomprehensible miracle and hugely important development.   Not only are there individual Jews living in Eretz Yisrael and NOT the galut (as there have been individual Jews and communities doing so for many generations and many centuries at different points in history), we also see that that Jews as a people has been redeemed as well because a huge portion of our national group has also re-situated itself into the homeland and made a more sizable population of Jews there than at any time in history.  Not only that, but we have established a Jewish governing structure and modern state over the land whereby Jews are self-governing, even if it's not ideal and it was started by Jews who did not know or understand Torah.  This - Jewish self-rule - also has halachic implications, even if it is not the ideal case.  Just like in the Biblical times when we had some evil kings, the kingdom was still a Jewish kingdom and all the implications that go along with that.

They may indeed be "spritually ascended" by living there, but they are not Redeemed.   

I believe this is entirely incorrect.    They have been redeemed because redeemed means to gather out of the exile.   The word in Hebrew has a meaning, but you are attaching concepts to it which are simply the Jewish vision of complete redemption and what will result from redemption.  But it does not come to exclude the meaning of the word and say that "even though you were taken out of exile, that's not redemption."  That is the definition of redemption.  To bring out of exile.   No offense, but I think you are confused.

or...

If I am wrong as some would like to insist, then THE STATE OF ISRAEL has now ended the Exile, and has supplanted and now incorporates all of the following:

Torah Judaism,
Am Yisrael,
Eretz Yisrael.   

Where do you see that these are required for "end of the exile" ?   The end of the exile means we no longer live in the lands of exile.   The Jewish people moving to Eretz Yisrael means the end of the exile.   Even if redemption is not complete yet.

Therefore the Israeli Government is Jewish Government, the IDF is the Jewish Army, and every Jew in Israel is now living in The Redemption and in need of nothing. 

The exile can end without any of this being true.    There can be an end to exile, ie the Jewish people as a people is redeemed and situates into the Land of Israel, yet the governing structure over our land is not yet the proper Jewish government.   

Also even with complete redemption I don't believe that every Jew would be "in need of nothing."  The natural order will continue.   This is a huge machloketh, however I do think according to the Rambam on this issue.   Leave aside the fact that moshiach himself fights wars against the enemies of the Jewish people.  That itself proves there are problems and things to be dealt with in the moshiach's time.  But even if you want to say After all that is complete, that's where there is a machloketh and I think like the Rambam that the natural order continues.