Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea

Happy Shavuot!

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Lubab:

--- Quote from: RationalThought110 on May 22, 2007, 09:20:51 PM ---I have a question about the Torah.

    About the Torah parshas that occur after Shavuot, were they already in the Torah when it was received? 

    The sections of Badmidbar and Devarim are after Shavuot.  So since the Torah doesn't end at Shavuot, does that mean it told what would happen next? 

--- End quote ---

Here is a discussion of that question courtesy of www.askmoses.com:

If the Torah was given at Sinai, then the Jews knew what would transpire later in the desert?!

Rabbi Gurkow: Welcome to the Rabbi's one on one chat room, how can I help you today?
happy_guy: The Torah tells us that the entire torah was given to Bnai Yisrael [Ed. note: the children of Israel] and Moses at Har [Mount] Sinai from the written Torah to Torah shel Ba_al Peh [the Oral Torah] to Halacha LiMoshe Mi_Sinai [laws not mentioned in the Torah, but verbally commanded to Moses atop Mount Sinai]. How could it be that Bnai Yisrael could do the things that they did in their journeys in the desert if they knew the consequences of their actions?

happy_guy: For example, the meraglim [spies sent by Moses to the Canaan. See Numbers ch. 13-14]. Some even say that they had good intentions. How could they do what they did if they knew the troubles that would arise from their actions? So too with the mon [Manna. See Exodus ch. 16].

Rabbi Gurkow: if I understand your question, you are asking me how they could have done wht they did if they had the torah and thus read what happens after they did what they did. is that right?

happy_guy: yup

Rabbi Gurkow: in other words...

Rabbi Gurkow: if they were given the torah then they knew what would happen in the future

Rabbi Gurkow: because they would have read it, right?

happy_guy: yup

Rabbi Gurkow: ok, here is where you have incorrect information

happy_guy: let's hear

Rabbi Gurkow: Moshe was given all the LAWS at Sinai and also the portion of the written torah that brought them up to date, i.e. from the beginning til after the Torah Portion of yisro (according to Rashi) or mishpatim (according to ramban), the rest was given to him as he went along

Rabbi Gurkow: and there there is a dispute in the Talmud

Rabbi Gurkow: one opinion says that it was given to him as they occurred over the course of forty years in the desert and then at the end he was told how to put it together

Rabbi Gurkow: another opinion says that it was all given to him (all meaning from the end of what was dictated to him at Sinai till the end of Chumash devarim [Deuteronomy]) just before his passing

happy_guy: so there aren't any opinions who say that the torah was given in its entirety (at Sinai?

Rabbi Gurkow: at sinai? no. only the law was but not the actual stories and not the laws that were given later such as Pesach sheini [the Second Passover. See Numbers ch. 9] and the law for the mekoshesh eitzim [wood gatherer. See Numbers 15:32-36] etc.

NOTE: All names, places, and identifying information have been changed or deleted in order to protect the privacy of the questioners. In order to preserve authenticity, the chat sessions have been posted with a minimum of editing. Please excuse typographical errors, missing punctuation, and/or grammatical mistakes which naturally occur in the course of informal chat sessions.

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http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=189&o=184000

jdl4ever:

--- Quote from: RationalThought110 on May 22, 2007, 09:20:51 PM ---I have a question about the Torah.

    About the Torah parshas that occur after Shavuot, were they already in the Torah when it was received? 

    The sections of Badmidbar and Devarim are after Shavuot.  So since the Torah doesn't end at Shavuot, does that mean it told what would happen next? 

--- End quote ---

Shavuot marks the holiday when G-d himself appeared to the nation of Israel on Mount Sinai and G-d himself told us directly the Ten commandments.  This was the symbolic giving of the Torah from G-d to the Jews.  I say symbolic since the transmission of the entire Torah happened later after Moses went up to Mount Sinai and G-d transmitted to him the entire Torah.  After that Moses transmitted it by word of mouth to the elders of Israel, who then transmitted it to the heads of the Tribes who then transmitted it to the heads of the families etc. until it was given to all of Israel.  Most probably the stories that are recorded in the Bible talking about future events were not known until after they happened and G-d told Moses to write them down the concepts and laws were revealed already.  It is also logical that some commandments were transmitted later in the order they are stated in the Bible.  Lubab has a good post that discusses when written Torah as we have it was revealed.  Right before Moses died, he wrote down the entire written Torah that G-d told him to write down and gave it over to the heads of the Tribes of Israel.  The written Torah is what G-d himself told Moses to write down word for word.  This was the completion of the Torah.

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