Lets get the Pastor to join JTF lol

[Chai]

The Torah was not given to them.

I mean you have to put it in perpective .

Im my home on every door post I am reminded that G-d took us out of Egypt.

Everyday I put on my heart and head that G-d saved us.

Everyday I put on tzizit with techilet to remember the mizvot

3 Times a day I  recite the shema that speaks of this

3 times a day I am reminded to pass this on to my children

on pesach i am reminded of this

on sukkot

on shabbat when we read the Torah

There is a reason for this ! B/c G-d knows whats in our heart and that there are temptations and without these laws lest we would  forget . Surely Gentiles who  have no such laws to help them cannot be obligated
Surely gentiles that never even heard of a Jews of these laws cannot be held accountable. So yes , They are righteous esp the gentiles here on JTF.

It would be a sick and perverted god that would label a kind moral person unrighteous because his philosophy of god is not perfect or never had our philosophy of god ingrained in us.

[mord]

WHO IS THE PASTOR

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "I am very interested in the issue of aggressive Jewish proselytizing and their threats of gentiles going to hell for not converting, what organization does such a thing ? Where do I find them?

Actually, Chai, there was a time in ancient Jewish history when one of the Jewish Kingdoms actively proselytized Israel's neighboring nations under threat of force.
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Re:  G-d would never put a gun to your head and say obey the 613 commandments or die! (or even the 7  Jewish light as you say) If you look in the Bible, even after the worst sins ,G-d never uttered the threat of hell , he did however give the thereat of exile , punishment  ..but never eternal hell for such things. Even with Adam, G-d was like you will die (not burn in hell) and even then did not kill him. The G-d of Israel is merciful to all , and it does not matter what you call him, just don't hurt people.

G-d at Sinai offered a Blessing and a Curse to the Jewish people.  Life and prosperity for obeying the 613 Commandments, and Death, Banishment, and Punishment should the Jews refuse Torah and turn from it.

If you believe The G-d of Israel is merciful to all then you've got a lot of explaining to do to the Jews living in Europe in the 1930's and 1940's, and for that matter you've got a lot of explaining to do to all the Jews living in Israel and elsewhere killed or maimed by Nazi terrorist Muslims since 1948.
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Re:  "I am religious because I choose to of my own free will ,with the knowledge that even if I don't I wont burn for eternity. Thats the Judaism I know.
I would rather burn in hell for eternity than to obey a cruel G-d like the one they described to you.

I have yet to meet a Jew who speaks like this that has even the slightest idea what it is that Torah teaches; let alone what any other faiths teach and believe.

I was taught by my synagogue and parents that the G-d of the Jews meant Love, Mercy, and Goodness, as opposed to the Christian version of G-d which meant Hell and Damnation and Threats.

Then, I read the entire Torah and studied parts of Talmud, and was struck with the realization that I'd been 'sold a bill of goods' by people who didn't know what the hell they were talking about and had themselves never actually read Torah cover to cover.

The G-d of the Jews is anything but a "nice guy in the sky" who could care less whether His Chosen People cares to believe and follow his dictates.

Nor is the Jewish G-d a kind and merciful Judge who would never destroy and "burn" the soul of man.

Just the opposite is true - He intends to destroy all that can not be made Holy.

And Jews also believe that even though we individuals have "free will", G-d has already determined everything that was, is, and shall be, as well as already knows what our "free will" will choose for us at every single moment of our lives. 

[Chai]

"Actually, Chai, there was a time in ancient Jewish history when one of the Jewish Kingdoms actively proselytized Israel's neighboring nations under threat of force."------ Ive heard this actually. Its hard to find info on this , if you can find it that be great id like to look at it and see the motivation behind it .. It would not be a sincere conversion im not sure how they did that..


As for the rest of what you say I had the same feeling you had in some of the things you said. Rabbi Kahanes book "the Jewish Idea" puts a lot of things in perspective , have you read it?

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "Most of our Sages would have never defined a Xtian to be a Righteous Gentile except for Da'at Miut (minority opinion) of Rabbi Meiri. "

And Rashi stated that Islam was more acceptably Kosher than Christianity because it acknowledges only One Indivisible G-d which has no "Son" and it also forbids any images or idols.

And our Sages also concluded that G-d speaks not only to the Jew but to all non-Jews as well; only to Jews G-d speaks directly - to all others He speaks "as through a veil".

And I myself have more than once been strongly rebuked by Chasidic Rabbis for criticizing or lecturing others about the 'misguided' beliefs they might hold, when my only concern should be for my own spiritual condition.

[Rubystars]

I am very interested in the issue of aggressive Jewish proselytizing and their threats of gentiles going to hell for not converting, what organization does such a thing ? Where do I find them?

It's individuals that do these things. I haven't run across any Jewish organization that would make a clear statement like that and the vast majority of Jews don't act like that, but there is a segment who do, and I've been around them. Some like Ron hate Christians and they openly admit it, and will do anything and everything to undermine Christian people's faith. I don't find it particularly healthy for a Christian who may not be strongly grounded to even be on a place even like this, that is supposed to be free of missionizing, because they will be exposed to all kinds of material trying to teach them how wrong they are and they may not have the understanding to resist it.

The beauty of the Jewish religion is that it gives us free will , because it does not threaten people with telling them they will go to hell, to do so would be a form of mental rape.

I don't think most Jewish people would do anything like that. All I'm saying is that some would, and do. I've seen it for myself.

G-d would never put a gun to your head and say obey the 613 commandments or die! (or even the 7  Jewish light as you say) If you look in the Bible, even after the worst sins ,G-d never uttered the threat of hell , he did however give the thereat of exile , punishment  ..but never eternal hell for such things. Even with Adam, G-d was like you will die (not burn in hell) and even then did not kill him. The G-d of Israel is merciful to all , and it does not matter what you call him, just don't hurt people.

You're a decent person and most Jews are. You might not have even been able to see the attacks that have been made on sincere Christians because many of them are quite subtle but effective nonetheless, and they were not done by you.

Also to me, Christians are Noahids that are just alitte over  eager for redemption (no big deal). Remember most societies are very Noahidish as it is not acceptable to murder , eat the live limb of an animal  just courts belief  in a higher power etc. Yet don't keep the 613 commandments .. that sounds like Noahidism to me.

That sort of makes sense. I don't have a problem with you saying that either. You're not the type who is bothering me at all. Most Jews on here are not. I don't want people to try to convince me that I have to give up my most precious, core beliefs, when this is a place where we should be working together with mutual respect. There is a time and place for debates about the merits of one religion or another, but I don't think this is the place for that unless we're talking about our common enemy, Islam.

BTW , a non Jewish soul can easily be  more pure then a Jewish one. The reason for this is since Jews have more commandments, they will surely make errors, these errors corrupt our soul (such as eating non kosher). Jews believe Gentiles are made in Gods image (Adam). Your soul Ruby Stars I am sure is more pure then mine. That is why it is a moot point for Non-Jews to convert, Unlike Islam that wants you to submit to them in every way.
I would love to Debate these people Its way to easy to prove them wrong. Where does it say you go to hell for not being Jewish or even religious for that matter.

You and most Jews do not claim such things. However some few do try to say that if I am a Christian that I will be judged by God very unfavorably regardless of whether or not I try to be a good person and honor God and help Jews. It's these people that I consider to be missionizers. And they're not trying to convert me to Judaism, but to Judaism-light.  In this way they deny that they ever try to convert people.

There is no point in preaching Noahidisim because most people keep them with out even realizing it.

There are people that argue fiercely that anyone who follows Christianity does not qualify under that umbrella. I tend to agree with you though that as a general understanding I have of them, that most people do by default follow most of the Jewish rules for Gentiles anyway.

I am religious because I choose to of my own free will ,with the knowledge that even if I don't I wont burn for eternity. Thats the Judaism I know.


I would rather burn in hell for eternity than to obey a cruel G-d like the one they described to you.

Well again I want to emphasize that it's not most Jews that do this, but it's a few, and I've seen it on every Jewish forum and Jewish chat I've ever been to. The attack on Christians who are pro-Israel. Most people in every place were not like this, but there are always a few, and the danger for someone weak in their Christian faith is real.

[TheCoon]

I do not appreciate being called a Christian hater. I do not hate... I simply want to preserve the Jewish people and our sages made it clear that once Jews start to work with non-Jews it leads to assimilation. Unfortunately, as I have explained so many times, my family has been virtually decimated due to the assimilation which has occurred only within three generations of being in America.

I do not hate non-Jews. I just know that Christians have a knack for trying to proselytize. One Shabbat during my morning davening some Christian missionaries came and tried to discuss their savior with me. Of course I had none of that and explained that it was Shabbat and I intended to worship G-d and not their savior.

I apologize if people perceive this as hatred, it certainly is not intended as such.

What really gets me with your attitude is that you seem unable to distinguish different Christian attitudes. There are Christians who proselytize and those who don't. No Christians here would do so to Jews ever yet you go out of your way to insult us every chance you get by lumping us in with those who do. I know of very few Christian ministers that attempt to prostelytize to Jews in this day and age. Those that are more conservative and would be considered allies of JTF would never do so.

You say Christians have a knack for trying to prostelytize and someone else said Christians have "destroyed more Jewish souls" than muslims. I'd say Jews have done a better job destroying the souls of their own people than any non-Jewish people. See what I did there? I lumped all Jews into one monolithic group just as you do to Christians. It's not very nice.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "Rabbi Kahanes book "the Jewish Idea" puts a lot of things in perspective , have you read it?

Yes.

I've read it along with his other writings.

Rabbi Kahane encouraged Torah Jews to ally with non-Jews who supported our right to live freely as Jews in the U.S.A., as well as our G-d given right to The Land of Israel.

As regards "the unrighteous", there's no need to look in the direction of non-Jews, as there is no shortage of "unrighteous" among the Jews right here on this forum.

[muman613]

Massah,

I guess you missed great portions of the Torah which magnify the awesome goodness of Hashem, most of Exodus and throughout Bamidbar...

I don't think you are going to High Holiday services where we repeat many times the 13 middot of Mercy, the 13 names of Hashem which we use to beseech mercy from the Creator and the one who released us from Egyptian bondage.

You concentrate on the negative aspects of Hashem too much. True one of his names is Elokim, the name of strict justice, and it was with this name that he creates the Universe. But the aspect of mercy kicked in just before the seventh day, when Adam and Eve ate the fruit. He did not destroy them immediately, as he promised, but provided time for them to do Teshuva {which I don't think they did properly and wasn't rectified till Mattan Torah}...

Hashem is indeed merciful. And there is a lot of Torah which supports this position. I just don't know how you missed out on it.

[TheCoon]

I'll put it like this. When someone lumps all Christians in with these missionary street-corner freaks it's like lumping Jews in with the neturei karta scum.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

I'll put it like this. When someone lumps all Christians in with these missionary street-corner freaks it's like lumping Jews in with the neturei karta scum.

While Neturei Karta's ideas are totally off base and have no base whatsoever in Judaism, Xtian scriptures clearly advocate mission and despise for those who did not accept the "Evangelium".

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

While Neturei Karta's ideas are totally off base and have no base whatsoever in Judaism, Xtian scriptures clearly advocate mission and despise for those who did not accept the "Evangelium".

Show me some verses in the New Testament that advocate or agree with the Crusades or what Martin Luther did, please.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "I guess you missed great portions of the Torah which magnify the awesome goodness of Hashem, most of Exodus and throughout Bamidbar..."

No.

I didn't miss out on any Torah portions.

I spent years reading it thoroughly and consulting with Lubavitcher Rabbis on portions which I found difficult to understand or comprehend.

The synagogue "services" we attend in 2010 have little if anything to do with Torah Judaism worship as it was practiced in Jerusalem at the Temple.

If anything, the "public rituals" and prayers spoken in unison by the congregation or in response to the scripture read by our rabbis are all developments influenced more by two thousand years of Exile accommodating Jews to gentile cultural religious patterns.

Our synagogues today in the Western world are "businesses" which sell "memberships" to those in the Jewish communities able and willing to pay for the "good seats" during the Holidays.

The Board of Trustees of the schuls and the Temple Presidents (usually chosen from among the wealthiest Doctors or Attorneys from the community as a "prestigious" position) all tell the Rabbis what it is they are going to say and what is to be included in the services which is "acceptable" to the paying members of the synagogues.

American synagogues are even regulated and controlled by the IRS and Federal Government, allowed tax-free status only if forbidden to express political opinions or take a political position.

It should therefore come as no surprise that after two thousand years of such "community worship" our services as well as our Hebrew schools are teaching a very "watered down" version of Judaism and G-d which is "acceptable" to a modern technological and educated society - one which "doesn't make waves" with the political status quo - a Judaism where a Rabbi is forbidden to teach Torah which demands that Jews renounce "The Peace Process" and annihilate the Muslim enemies of the Jewish People.

I must have also missed all the portions in Torah CONDEMNING the descendants of Ham to be CURSED for their ancestor's sin, and be servants, as well as the servants of servants FOREVER.

That sure doesn't sound like "Mr. Nice Guy in the Sky" shedding goodness, mercy and forgiveness on all creation.

In the modern Jewish synagogues, gone are the Curse and the Punishments offered at Sinai.  Gone is the Divine Commandment to annihilate Amalek and kill every man, woman, and animal among the Canaanites.  Gone also are the visions of horror facing all Jews which were proclaimed by the Prophets warning us of G-d's Condemnation for our rebuke of Torah....

Now, included instead in synagogue services are selected verses and discourses emphasizing the "Goodness of G-d" "His Mercy endureth forever" ... "He forgiveth our transgressions"... "A God of Love who cares for all men and all creation" ...

Even the 'Kol Nidre' Service (considered so astoundingly important - and one in which congregations pay exorbitantly high prices for the most highly regarded cantors to come and sing for them each year) is a very recent addition with no relation whatsoever to Torah Judaism - It is something the Jews of the Middle Ages devised so that they could swear allegiance and vow loyalty to their gentile Kings and then say a prayer to tell G-d that they were "just lying" to their King and country so their heads wouldn't be chopped off, and so therefore shouldn't be held accountable for any "vows" they make during the year. 

Meanwhile, the "Torah Sages" insisted that each Jew must willingly accept Death rather than renounce Judaism, and were unanimous in their view that Jews may bow down only before G-d and never before an earthly gentile King.

And as for "Who by Fire, Who by Pestilence, Who by Strangulation, Who by Flood' is decided by G-d to be killed in the upcoming Jewish Year ...

I guess that the goodness and mercy is bestowed after these horrific deaths?

Or is it that the mercy, justice, and goodness are only for those not chosen to die this year by being burned alive or drowning?

Now, if you will excuse me, I have to go and donate my car and some land to the Lubavitchers in hopes of receiving Mercy, Kindness, and Goodness.  Forever.  And Forever.  Amen.  And Amen.

[muman613]

Massuh,

I could respond to each of your concerns but at this time I think it would be a waste.

The Talmud, the Kabbalah and all historical Jewish sources say that Hashem is a Merciful G-d. Reading the very first Parasha of Beresheit the commentators come to the absolute conclusion that the reason the Universe was created was for Hashem to have a people to be merciful to. This is not invented in the last 1000 years... This is from the mouths of the sages of the days of old.

You also seem to have an issue with the fact that some Jewish institutions demand payment in order to attend services. Well, to tell the truth I hardly pay anything and yet I am a member of a local community. Indeed I do give Tzedakkah to these organizations, but it comes from my heart and my will to give what I can give in order to support the furthering of Jewish education.

I guess you will have to deal with Hashem in your own way on judgement day.

I think I will start a thread on the awesome wondrous good deeds Hashem did for us in the desert, and still does for us to this day...

PS: Look at my current signature line, it is the 2nd Aliyah for Haazinu {and I had this Aliyah for last Shabbat}...

Parasha Haazinu - Devarim 32:7-11

Remember the days of old; reflect upon the years of [other] generations. Ask your father, and he will tell you; your elders, and they will inform you.When the Most High gave nations their lot, when He separated the sons of man, He set up the boundaries of peoples according to the number of the children of Israel.Because the Lord's portion is His people Jacob, the lot of His inheritance.He found them in a desert land, and in a desolate, howling wasteland. He encompassed them and bestowed understanding upon them; He protected them as the pupil of His eye. As an eagle awakens its nest, hovering over its fledglings, it spreads its wings, taking them and carrying them  on its pinions. [So] the Lord guided them alone, and there was no alien deity with Him.

Do you think King David was in it for the money? I hope not... Yet he wrote:

Tehillim 136

Give thanks to the Lord because He is good, for His kindness is eternal.
Give thanks to the God of the angels, for His kindness is eternal.
Give thanks to the Lord of lords, for His kindness is eternal.
To Him Who performs great wonders alone, for His kindness is eternal.
To Him Who made the heavens with understanding, for His kindness is eternal.
To Him Who spread out the earth over the water, for His kindness is eternal.
To Him Who made great luminaries, for His kindness is eternal.
The sun to rule by day, for His kindness is eternal.
The moon and stars to rule at night, for His kindness is eternal.
To Him Who smote the Egyptians with their firstborn, for His kindness is eternal.
And He took Israel from their midst, for His kindness is eternal.
With a strong hand and with an outstretched arm, for His kindness is eternal.
To Him Who cut the Sea of Reeds asunder, for His kindness is eternal.
And caused Israel to cross in its midst, for His kindness is eternal.
And He threw Pharaoh and his host into the Sea of Reeds, for His kindness is eternal.
To Him Who led His people in the desert, for His kindness is eternal.
To Him Who smote great kings, for His kindness is eternal.
And slew mighty kings, for His kindness is eternal.
Sihon the king of the Amorites, for His kindness is eternal.
And Og the king of Bashan, for His kindness is eternal.
And He gave their land as an inheritance, for His kindness is eternal.
An inheritance to Israel His servant, for His kindness is eternal.
Who remembered us in our humble state, for His kindness is eternal.
And He rescued us from our adversaries, for His kindness is eternal.
Who gives bread to all flesh, for His kindness is eternal.
Give thanks to the God of heaven, for His kindness is eternal.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

While Neturei Karta's ideas are totally off base and have no base whatsoever in Judaism, Xtian scriptures clearly advocate mission and despise for those who did not accept the "Evangelium".

Show me some verses in the New Testament that advocate or agree with the Crusades or what Martin Luther did, please.

I don't even need to go there since we're talking specifically about missionaries and not violence. Matthew explains Xtian
mission pretty clearly.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

I'd say Jews have done a better job destroying the souls of their own people than any non-Jewish people.

By not accepting Jeebus?

[mord]

WHO IS THE PASTOR

which Pastor

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

WHO IS THE PASTOR

which Pastor

from the Qur'an burning

[mord]

oh he didn't do it he shouldn't have made the announcement to begin with

[Rubystars]

I'll put it like this. When someone lumps all Christians in with these missionary street-corner freaks it's like lumping Jews in with the neturei karta scum.

While Neturei Karta's ideas are totally off base and have no base whatsoever in Judaism, Xtian scriptures clearly advocate mission and despise for those who did not accept the "Evangelium".

Christians do have a mission to preach the gospel, but Jesus never said to do it in the horrible ways in which it has been misinterpreted. It was never supposed to be an aggressive, manipulative, predatory type of thing. Jesus never said to kill people if they don't want to follow Him, Jesus never said to torture people for being "heretics". Jesus never said to do a lot of the things that people have done in His name. Jesus said God is Love. I think a lot of the more horrible stuff came out of Rome and Greece, later on, not the first Christians. I understand why you would be unhappy with even them and I respect the reasoning for it. I am not here to convert Jews, nor do I seek out Jews to convert anywhere. I am not an enemy of the Jewish people and I do not seek to destroy their ancient religion or traditions.

I think I understand why you hate Christians so much, and it's because most of your exposure to them have been the evil Arabs in Israel. While a few may be true Christians, I think most of them there have forgotten the teachings about love and live a life that's just as evil as their Muslim counterparts. They put a strong focus on certain Scriptures which could be interpreted by evil people to be against all Jews and they persecute God's people based on that. I have a completely different experience with Christianity, one that taught me to admire the Jews. I don't blame you for what you've been exposed to, but that's not all there is to Christians.

[muman613]

WHO IS THE PASTOR

which Pastor

from the Qur'an burning

Is it true that this pastor also intended to burn Talmuds?

If so I cannot support him..

[mord]

WHO IS THE PASTOR

which Pastor

from the Qur'an burning

Is it true that this pastor also intended to burn Talmuds?

If so I cannot support him..

no where did you read that

[muman613]

WHO IS THE PASTOR

which Pastor

from the Qur'an burning

Is it true that this pastor also intended to burn Talmuds?

If so I cannot support him..

no where did you read that

I cannot quote the location I saw it but I think it was in a talkback on some website I was reading. I also think that someone in a discussion here at JTF made an accusation that this pastor was also against Jewish holy books... Let me google it and see if I can find any support for this...

Here is an article which discusses this:

http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/news/columnists/mayo/blog/2010/09/quran_burning_fighting_hate_wi.html

There is so much perverse, offensive and just plain wrong about a Gainesville pastor’s plans to burn Qurans and the Talmud to mark the anniversary of the Sept. 11th attacks I don’t know where to begin.

This comes from an antisemitic site {Warning!}

http://revisionistreview.blogspot.com/2010/08/burning-koran-and-talmud-in-florida.html

Burning the Koran and the Talmud in Florida
Michael Hoffman | www.RevisionistHistory.org

Few acts could be more counter-productive than book-burning.

Though medieval Catholics are stigmatized for burning the Babylonian Talmud, the burning of the New Testament in the Israeli state is almost never mentioned.

The Talmud is a book that actually calls for the burning of Christian books. This is a startling and obscure fact. Because Michael Hoffman has dug it up, Internet critics of Zionism and the ADL will not tell their readers about it in their e-mailings lest they publicize Hoffman's research. Better that their readers are kept ignorant. No wonder we're losing.

http://www.usanewstoday.net/info-jones-koran-talmud.html

Red-nosed pastor Terry Jones, who plans to burn copies of the Koran and Jewish text the Talmud at the weekend, has either had his website  hacked or his ISP has pulled the plug.. Jones is enjoying his 15 minutes of fame thanks to plans for an International Burn the Koran Day to mark the anniversary of 9/11. Jones also plans to burn copies of the Talmud..If I was Terry Jones, I would be hesitant to remind people of that chapter from Burning The Koran, Burning The Talmud; Meet Ahmed--The New Muslim Gargoyle On A French Ca.The center is run by Terry Jones, who can't seem to make up his mind whether he's in favor of burning copies of the Koran and Talmud or not. .

[mord]

hoffman is holocaust denier and there are plenty of Christian bibles in Israel my friend took one when he went. the only place he couldn't take it was by moslum mosques

[cjd]

I'd say Jews have done a better job destroying the souls of their own people than any non-Jewish people.

By not accepting Jeebus?

I give up   I have searched through all the best idol stores and have been unable to locate the prized "Jeebus" idol for my collection....Come out come out where ever you are Jeebus