Author Topic: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT  (Read 15957 times)

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Offline TheCoon

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Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #100 on: September 21, 2010, 09:22:45 AM »

Let us just agree that the church has a history which needs to be forgiven.


No offense Muman, but I resent this statement, that I find surprisingly anti-Jewish by the way : no, the horrible crimes committed by people who claimed to represent catholicism although they were acting in contradiction with what Jesus taught, must NOT be forgiven.
This does not mean that I resent Catholics in general for what some of them did in the past. Personally, if it wasn't for a Catholic priest, I wouldn't be alive today. My grandfather was hidden and cared for by a Catholic priest during WWII. So I know what "righteous Gentile" means and I have the highest respect for righteous Gentiles.

There is nothing anti-Jewish in what I said. I said that the Church needs to ask for our forgiveness, apologize for its evil ways, and remove the offensive sections which inspired so much anti-semitism. I have seen that the NT is full of anti-semitic contents. The Jews are called sons of devils, amongst other things. When I was young I had a school-mate who told me because I was Jewish I was going to hell, my mom was told that she had horns when she was a child... The antisemitism which is in the NT is disgusting...

As long as the church teaches the NT to its congregants there will be continued antisemitism.

I think this is not anti-Jewish, it is standing up for the Jewish people against the taught antisemitism of christianity..

The Jews are not called sons of the devil. The early Jews went to Jesus and claimed they didn't need to accept him because they were descended from Abraham. The point Jesus was making is that regardless of who you are descended from, you still share the original sin. The "sons of devils" comment is placed on mankind, not just the Jews. In Christian view we all share in the original sin, Jews, Christians, everyone. Jesus made this point to test the faith of those who said they believed in him. John's Gospel explains the relationship between Jesus and his early followers and Jesus' "growth" from man, to prophet to the son of G-d. When Jesus heals the blind man, it symbolizes his humility and he sees Jesus and believes in him. The others don't agree they need to believe in Jesus to be cleansed like the blind man was and that is why they are still considered slaves to sin. Keep in mind the blind man was also Jew, so in no way can it be believed Jesus was saying Jews have some demonic piece of them which makes them evil.

As for persecuting Jews, the NT clearly forbids it in Romans. G-d is compared to an olive tree. It compares Christians to new growth branches and Jews branches that have fallen from the tree. It teaches that G-d's kindness "grafted" you into the tree and you must continue that kindness and not persecute the fallen branches because that is not emulating G-d. In fact, it says that if you persecute unbelievers(in a Christian sense), you become one yourself and will be cut off from the tree. You must always be kind to the Jews. It continues to state that the Jews are eternally loved by G-d because of his covenant with the Patriarchs.

I think unfortunately your opinion on the matter is clouded by awful experiences you had as a youngster. In no way does the NT condone people persecuting Jews.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 09:37:57 AM by The Coon »
The city isn't what it used to be. It all happened so fast. Everything went to crap. It's like... everyone's sense of morals just disappeared. Bad economy made things worse. Jobs started drying up, then the stores had to shut down. Then a black man was elected president. He was supposed to change things. He didn't. More and more people turned to crime and violence... The town becomes gripped with fear. Dark times, dark times... I am the hero this town needs. I am... The Coon!!!

Offline nessuno

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Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #101 on: September 21, 2010, 09:28:42 AM »

Let us just agree that the church has a history which needs to be forgiven.


No offense Muman, but I resent this statement, that I find surprisingly anti-Jewish by the way : no, the horrible crimes committed by people who claimed to represent catholicism although they were acting in contradiction with what Jesus taught, must NOT be forgiven.
This does not mean that I resent Catholics in general for what some of them did in the past. Personally, if it wasn't for a Catholic priest, I wouldn't be alive today. My grandfather was hidden and cared for by a Catholic priest during WWII. So I know what "righteous Gentile" means and I have the highest respect for righteous Gentiles.

There is nothing anti-Jewish in what I said. I said that the Church needs to ask for our forgiveness, apologize for its evil ways, and remove the offensive sections which inspired so much anti-semitism. I have seen that the NT is full of anti-semitic contents. The Jews are called sons of devils, amongst other things. When I was young I had a school-mate who told me because I was Jewish I was going to hell, my mom was told that she had horns when she was a child... The antisemitism which is in the NT is disgusting...

As long as the church teaches the NT to its congregants there will be continued antisemitism.

I think this is not anti-Jewish, it is standing up for the Jewish people against the taught antisemitism of christianity..


I don't know what you are talking about, Muman.
I went to 8 years of Catholic school.  I never heard that Jews were going to hell and that they have horns.  :o  Stop spreading this disinformation.
My wonderful parents are the main reasons why I love the Jewish people and I am very pro Israel.  Still, the church did nothing to diminish my respect for the Jewish faith. 
You make a very good effort at it though.
See - that is why I can take Ron.  He doesn't pretend to be 'tolerant'...then come up with this divisive garbage.

Most Italian Catholics I know get along very well with Jewish people.  We have strong family and religious values in common. 
 >:(
Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #102 on: September 21, 2010, 09:38:38 AM »
bullcat3:  "Ron's misplaced hatred, against Christian members here, seems insignificant in the grand scheme of things. "

There are only two ancient civilizations today which have survived to the present day:  the Jews and the Chinese.

Both have done so maintaining a continuous history and culture, and both have arrived at the present time with their national languages still intact.

We Jews should learn a lesson from the Chinese which they've known for quite some time:

Only history decides and judges the significance of leadership and government 'in the great scheme of things'.

The work of Chaim and JTF may well come to be viewed as a mere footnote in future written histories, one marked with the briefest of mentions as to how errors in judgment combined with organizational missteps, resulting in the complete failure of a movement founded on Jewish values.


Offline nessuno

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Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #103 on: September 21, 2010, 09:49:18 AM »
MassuhDGoodName - I agree that the Jewish people should maintain their history and culture.  I agree.   
As to whether an alliance between Jews and Gentiles, here, will diminish that in anyway.
You are right. Only time will tell.

I see time as short.  The situation is dire.

I would not like to be perceived as an enemy to Jewish people, only as an ally in their preservation...and my child's.

I hope I responded to your point.


Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Offline muman613

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Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #104 on: September 21, 2010, 09:53:55 AM »
Christianity is not compatible with Judaism. It is considered a foreign worship by Jews. There is no way that we will agree about the nature of G-d, the mission of the Jewish nation, and the covenant which exists to this day between Hashem and his people..

The only reason we are working together is that christians have a slightly different idea of the end of days than the Jewish people. We both agree that the Jews must be in Israel...


You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline TheCoon

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Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #105 on: September 21, 2010, 09:58:51 AM »
Christianity is not compatible with Judaism. It is considered a foreign worship by Jews. There is no way that we will agree about the nature of G-d, the mission of the Jewish nation, and the covenant which exists to this day between Hashem and his people..

The only reason we are working together is that christians have a slightly different idea of the end of days than the Jewish people. We both agree that the Jews must be in Israel...

How does it's "compatibility" with Judaism have anything to do with promoting hatred of Jews? Obviously we can't agree on those issue because then there would be no difference in the two faiths. The point is, there's no logic in thinking the NT promotes anti-semitism because it doesn't. Those who used the NT to promote anti-semitism were clearly violating its teachings. No one is denying that Christians have done horrible things to Jews, but to claim Jesus and his apostles validated those actions is simply not true as I have shown.
The city isn't what it used to be. It all happened so fast. Everything went to crap. It's like... everyone's sense of morals just disappeared. Bad economy made things worse. Jobs started drying up, then the stores had to shut down. Then a black man was elected president. He was supposed to change things. He didn't. More and more people turned to crime and violence... The town becomes gripped with fear. Dark times, dark times... I am the hero this town needs. I am... The Coon!!!

Offline muman613

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Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #106 on: September 21, 2010, 10:00:54 AM »
Interesting discussion of Christian blood libels against Jews:

http://www.milknhoney.co.il/torah/hachodesh_blood_libel.html



Shabat Hachodesh - Another Blood Libel


    Shemot 12-8
    You should eat the meat on this night roasted on a fire and they must
    eat it on Matzah and Bitter herbs.

For at least a couple of thousand years many, even the vast majority of gentiles believed that the Jews needed Gentile blood to fulfill  the Mitzvah of eating Matzah.

More fascinating than the fact that simple people believed this is that educated and open minded people believed it. Indeed it is these  people who lead the Pogroms, Inquisitions and Holocausts which cold bloodedly murdered millions of Jews.

We need  to understand the current types of Anti-Semitism and its new incarnation in the form of Anti-Israelism.  How Anti-Semites used to think is very important for this understanding. A very brief survey of how anti-Semites used to think will have to do:  Jews are lazy. They use guile instead of work to oppress others and to suppress the entire world. The extremist Anti-Semites even  believed that the Elders of Zion gather to discuss the method by which Jews will take over the world.

Part of this Jewish plot to conquer the world is the poisoning of gentile drinking water which causes the plague.

The Jews are obstinate in lying about the fact that Jesus was the  savior. On this subject  I recently perused the internet for ordinary references to Jews by Christian theologians. One need not look far or deep to find TERRIBLY Anti-Semitic references within even the tameist of Christian babbling.

I found one [which I forgot to link - but you can search for it] which a doozy:

   We know the Jews saw these things without seeing them fulfilled in Christ, for they rejected Him.

And another at:
http://www.poconos.net/~reformed/books/calvin-zephaniah.html This is written by Calvin of theologian  fame. It refers to the
rebukes of the Prophet Tzephania:
 

   ...but the Jews in this case, according to their manner, deal in trifles; for in things unknown they hesitate not to assert what comes to their minds, though it may not have the least appearance of truth.

In other words "Jews know the truth of Jesus but in their love for Evil they deny him"

Recently certain churches have tried to come closer to Israel. As part of this effort they wish to Saintify (canonize) Hitler's
supporters. They deny the churches happiness that the Nazis had finally done their religious calling in the Final Solution. Instead
they make these Silent Murderers into Jew protectors and saviors of oppressed Jews.

It is their book which is the source of Christian Anti-Semitism which has spread its claws way outside the realms of religion.
The Pharisees were the holy people preceding the Mishnaic era. We are all their descendants and Jesus' attitude towards them
quickly became church  attitude towards us. Just to quote a few:
 

   Matthew:
   Woe Unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like whited sepulchers which outwardly appear beautiful, but inwardly are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanliness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but inwardly ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

    Matthew:

   But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

That is to say the Jews are hypocrites and vipers.

The following claims that we are not even Jews but represent everything that is Evil:

   John:
   ... and the blasphemy of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

It is not a blood libel against the NT to say that its attitude  incited the murder of many Jews. Its readers read the simple meaning of the text. Its leaders pontificated about the evil Jew and its plays used the Jew as the symbol of evil and the partner with Satan.

A good example of how this text became representative of the common
attitude towards Jews is from The Devil and Jews - Trachtenberg, pg. 25:

   In one of these legends when an impoverished Christian in desperation calls to the Devil for help a Jew suddenly appears and offers to aid him if he will deny Jesus.


The Jew is the analogy for anything evil. We see this often enough in Classic Literature like Shakespeare and Fagin in Dickens' Oliver Twist.

As you all know I have not even touched the surface or even discussed the equivalent of Mustard seed relative to vast amount of hatred, murder  and paranoia instigated against the Jews who were always a minority in any place.

In our  Post Holocaust era we have finally been given by G-d our own land. In this era in the Western world it is becoming a little uncouth to cite the above dribble and to use it against small or large Jewish communities. Although, messengers of the Palestinian Authority and it associative organizations have been known to bomb Jewish community centers throughout the world.

In its place has come the very popular Anti-Israelism. Any official representative of the Jewish state is viewed as a manipulator.

The Arab world, its local press and certain oil hungry Arab puppet politicians (like George Bush and James Baker) have taken
the place of the Church to act against the Zionist plot to bring insecurity and death to the region and to the world.

Before Benjamin Netanyahu was compared to a Nazi in the official Egyptian  news it was none other than, Mr Appease the
Gentiles himself, Shimon Peres whose government was thusly compared. You will remember that it is the Nazi's who are famous for murdering six million Jews and many millions of others.

Although we have known it all along European Social researchers have found that Israeli Arabs and more so their Palestinian brethren seriously believe that Hitler was the greatest leader of this century. During WWII they actively supported Hitler against the occupying Mandatory  English.

Ahh... now on to the English. Many Palestinian Jews (as they were called by the British) happily volunteered to join the Royal
forces in their fight against Hitler. This volunteerism was, and still is, viewed by the English as a free ride to learning military
skills which they planned to use against the English to eventually banish them from our country.

Foreign Ministers of England and all of Europe have felt for the last fifty years that it is their  duty to protect the "indigenous"
Palestinian population from the invading, cold hearted, plotting, Israelis.

The attitude is "Israel knows the truth of its  Evil plots to bring unrest to the world  yet they  deny this." Israel tries to deny the
basic right of the Arabs to fulfill the Christian wish to rid the world of the deniers of Christ. OK, it is not that clear a connection
but it is part of the Anti-Israeli subconscious. However, we have no right to cause unemployment while trying to prevent suicide bombers from killing ordinary people on their way.

It is very common for Arab Newspapers, especially Palestinian ones, to cite the same old Antisemitic stuff:

The Israelis have polluted the Palestinian water system causing fatal infections to the population.

Israeli prostitutes are sent by the Mosad to give AIDS to Palestinian men.

A new flip on the "Jews have desecrated..."
By opening the tunnel (next to the Temple Mount) the Israelis have desecrated....

More unbelievable, although we are used to it, is the Anti-Israelism of  Liberals and Humanitarian organizations. Of  course we can not forget their good old Anti-Semitism of yore.

Such groups as the Quakers - Society of Friends which preach anti-violence can never find it in their Plethora of denouncements of Israel to even once denounce the Barbaric murder of school children and many other people who did nothing other than the sin of being born Israeli (Jewish).

Even worse than this many "pacifists" find room within their hearts to understand an insane theology which encourages murder and barbarity. However, their small minds can not understand why Israel feels that it needs the most modern and sophisticated equipment to protect its population. Such protection is viewed as Destabilization of the region and acts of aggression.

I have been known to say that it is upon the Gentiles much more than us to "Remember and Never Forget" the Holocaust and the thousands of years of anti Semitism which Christianity encourages. If I manage to forget the tortures of the Inquisition, Crusades, Pogroms  and the Holocaust little will happen.

Gentile denial, playing it down or just simply forgetting seems to be very dangerous for Israel/The Jews. The Palestinians deny it and they want to butcher us whenever they can.

Let us not forget The Church. I refer to any church from the Anglican to the Vatican to the Orthodox. They are no different in their source for Israel and Jewish Hatred. They believe that they have done us a favor by allowing us to live after murdering and denying Christ.

The second chapter of Sefer Tehilim starts:

    Why do the gentiles quake? Why do the Nations meditate empty thoughts.  All of kings of the land and important people form  closed committees against G-d and against his anointed.

Pesukim like these refer to The United Nations [Against Israel.] (UNAI)  For no logical reason they constantly pass motions against Israel. A million people can be murdered in Africa, India, the Far East or even central Europe yet at best they come up with a couple of  motions against these  Genocidal maniacs. However, if an Israeli harms someone in self defense the entire UNAI decides that Israel must be totally controlled.

Additionally, we can give honorable mention to modern Neo-Nazis. They have come up with the most inteligent kind of Anti-Semitism. "The Jews of today are not realy Jews." Therefor, they have no right to the land of Israel. They base this on a legend that at one time The Kazar empire which was somewhere around the Caucuses converted to Judaism. Since the Jewish people are decended from these people they have no right to settle the land. Additionally, the liers who are not really Jewish should be slaughtered for oppressing the innocent Palistinians. These people have many site on the web. They are always moving around. If you want to find them look to keywords: evisionist, kazar, holocaust denial and others.

The Hagadah says that in every generation they come up against Israel to eliminate us. Do not be mislead to believe that the modern world has freed itself of the blood libels. They have simply renamed them.

Also read my experiences in the city of  Prague

mailto:[email protected]
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #107 on: September 21, 2010, 10:09:23 AM »
All,

I'm still waiting for it to be explained what the matzo blood libel and other historic Nazi lies have to do with the NT. All that pogroms and inquisitions prove is that the majority of humans are horrible, evil people. Unless somehow we JTF Christians have some time-travel capabilities and/or persecuted Jews in past lives, this is getting really old and pathetic. Some individuals really must assume that if Europe had just stayed pagan it would have been philo-Semitic all along. Yeah, like the Romans were so pro-Jewish. ROTFLMAO. Please guys, get some new material.

Offline MasterWolf1

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Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #108 on: September 21, 2010, 10:20:12 AM »

Let us just agree that the church has a history which needs to be forgiven.


No offense Muman, but I resent this statement, that I find surprisingly anti-Jewish by the way : no, the horrible crimes committed by people who claimed to represent catholicism although they were acting in contradiction with what Jesus taught, must NOT be forgiven.
This does not mean that I resent Catholics in general for what some of them did in the past. Personally, if it wasn't for a Catholic priest, I wouldn't be alive today. My grandfather was hidden and cared for by a Catholic priest during WWII. So I know what "righteous Gentile" means and I have the highest respect for righteous Gentiles.

There is nothing anti-Jewish in what I said. I said that the Church needs to ask for our forgiveness, apologize for its evil ways, and remove the offensive sections which inspired so much anti-semitism. I have seen that the NT is full of anti-semitic contents. The Jews are called sons of devils, amongst other things. When I was young I had a school-mate who told me because I was Jewish I was going to hell, my mom was told that she had horns when she was a child... The antisemitism which is in the NT is disgusting...

As long as the church teaches the NT to its congregants there will be continued antisemitism.

I think this is not anti-Jewish, it is standing up for the Jewish people against the taught antisemitism of christianity..


I don't know what you are talking about, Muman.
I went to 8 years of Catholic school.  I never heard that Jews were going to hell and that they have horns.  :o  Stop spreading this disinformation.
My wonderful parents are the main reasons why I love the Jewish people and I am very pro Israel.  Still, the church did nothing to diminish my respect for the Jewish faith. 
You make a very good effort at it though.
See - that is why I can take Ron.  He doesn't pretend to be 'tolerant'...then come up with this divisive garbage.

Most Italian Catholics I know get along very well with Jewish people.  We have strong family and religious values in common. 
 >:(

Bullcat, neither have I, I spent 12 years in the Catholic school system. And each religious hour we were told to love the Jews.. There are plenty of self hating Christians and Catholics out there who do not represent our actual teachings. Yes there are a lot of problems within the Church.. But to bash people who don't agree and labeling them a Nazi that is highly offensive.  But I have never in the 12 years heard our Bishop or our Nuns who were our teachers taught us anything that was in the form of being anti semitism.  Both sides have their differences on how they believe their faith, and that is fine I have no problem in that, never did.  But to have someone coming aboard and constant spewing such "hatred" shows he is very closed minded.  Now I am always recruiting people to this movement.  The majority comes from the states cause this is the English forum. If they see someone calling anybody who is a Christian or Catholic even though they fully are willing to stand together with the Jewish people and save Israel well they are going to say "Well what am I doing here?"
RIGHT WING AMERICAN AND PROUD OF IT. IF YOU WANTED TO PROVE YOU WEREN'T A "RACIST" IN 2008 BY VOTING FOR OBAMA, THEN PROVE IN 2012 YOU ARE NOT AN IDIOT FOR VOTING AGAINST OBAMA!

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #109 on: September 21, 2010, 10:28:38 AM »

Yes Masterwolf is a great member but Ron was only defending himself, as you know everyone is against him yet again.

Bryan, I am not "against Ron."

That said, I am against anti-Italian slurs - I don't think they have a place on this forum - and I don't think it's called for to lash out against people personally if there's a disagreement about something unless they personally express nazi or nazi-like views.  I think it gets excessive to ascribe these views to people based on their ethnicity, if they never expressed the view themself.  

There are loads of antisemites out there, I see them in facebook all the time.  Western antisemites - american, british, all kinds.   And they say really disgusting things in favor of their pet-Arabs and "Palestine" against Jews, commenting on my friends' walls and posts.    The people here can't be blamed for spouting those views if the people here don't spout them!   Certainly I think all JTF'ers would strongly disagree with views like the ones I'm referring to, when I see those comments in facebook.  It's not fair to imply that secretly or otherwise, the JTF'ers really hold those views.    Unless some individual person exhibits that demonstrably, that is an insane accusation.

If you say Ron was saying things in self defense, then you can make the same argument for Masterwolf saying things for himself and we get nowhere.

Offline mord

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Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #110 on: September 21, 2010, 10:35:10 AM »
I will use this quote...[ and the blasphemy of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but are a synagogue of Satan] when i'm amongst reformed 'deformed Jews as well as anti Israel Jews
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
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Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #111 on: September 21, 2010, 10:41:59 AM »
I will use this quote...[ and the blasphemy of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but are a synagogue of Satan] when i'm amongst reformed 'deformed Jews as well as anti Israel Jews
It is entirely possible that the Apostle John was referring to an ancient equivalent of Deform Jews when he wrote that.

Offline mord

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Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #112 on: September 21, 2010, 10:43:14 AM »
I will use this quote...[ and the blasphemy of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but are a synagogue of Satan] when i'm amongst reformed 'deformed Jews as well as anti Israel Jews
It is entirely possible that the Apostle John was referring to an ancient equivalent of Deform Jews when he wrote that.
Dick silverstein ancestors
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
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Offline TheCoon

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Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #113 on: September 21, 2010, 10:43:30 AM »
Muman, can you address my previous post on this page? You posted this long message board post that has so much nonsense on it that has nothing to do with supposed Christian NT anti-semitism.

As for this statement:

"and the blasphemy of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but are a synagogue of Satan."

This refers to condemning the pharisees who were in league with Rome. The pharisees of the time worked with Rome to achieve special status where they didn't have to pay taxes or do military service. Jews were exempt from supporting the official Roman religion while Christians were persecuted for refusing to pay taxes or serving. John was referring to the religious heirarchy of Smyrna and when he says "that say they are Jews, and they are not" in that they were being loyal to Rome instead of G-d. Rome is the Satan John refers to and he is saying the pharisees were betraying their faith by making deals and basically snitching on the Christians to the Roman authorities for special treatment.

Matthew:
Woe Unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like whited sepulchers which outwardly appear beautiful, but inwardly are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanliness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but inwardly ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Matthew:
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?


This refers to John baptizing people at the Jordan. The pharisees/sadducees went to see what he was doing, because it was much alike Jewish ritual cleansings. He rebuked them because they refused to accept Christ and repent for their sins and that they could not receive baptism until they did so. Again, we are ALL full of hypocrisy, iniquity and evil and the Christian belief is that we accept Christ to absolve us of these sins. I fail to see how this encouraged anti-semitism. It's simply a theological disagreement.
The city isn't what it used to be. It all happened so fast. Everything went to crap. It's like... everyone's sense of morals just disappeared. Bad economy made things worse. Jobs started drying up, then the stores had to shut down. Then a black man was elected president. He was supposed to change things. He didn't. More and more people turned to crime and violence... The town becomes gripped with fear. Dark times, dark times... I am the hero this town needs. I am... The Coon!!!

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #114 on: September 21, 2010, 10:43:51 AM »

Let us just agree that the church has a history which needs to be forgiven.


No offense Muman, but I resent this statement, that I find surprisingly anti-Jewish by the way : no, the horrible crimes committed by people who claimed to represent catholicism although they were acting in contradiction with what Jesus taught, must NOT be forgiven.
This does not mean that I resent Catholics in general for what some of them did in the past. Personally, if it wasn't for a Catholic priest, I wouldn't be alive today. My grandfather was hidden and cared for by a Catholic priest during WWII. So I know what "righteous Gentile" means and I have the highest respect for righteous Gentiles.

There is nothing anti-Jewish in what I said. I said that the Church needs to ask for our forgiveness, apologize for its evil ways, and remove the offensive sections which inspired so much anti-semitism. I have seen that the NT is full of anti-semitic contents. The Jews are called sons of devils, amongst other things. When I was young I had a school-mate who told me because I was Jewish I was going to hell, my mom was told that she had horns when she was a child... The antisemitism which is in the NT is disgusting...

As long as the church teaches the NT to its congregants there will be continued antisemitism.

I think this is not anti-Jewish, it is standing up for the Jewish people against the taught antisemitism of christianity..



All right, I misunderstood what you wrote. I agree with what you write here. By the way, here is another anecdote similar to those you tell : due to complicated circumstances, my mother had to spend one year at a catholic school when she was fourteen; no other girl would talk to her or invite her; she was told that she was guilty of the murder of Jesus... The teachers did try to lecture the girls but that did not make much difference.
Another anecdote. Last summer, I visited a church in France. There was an exhibition inside the church about recent history : Arafat was presented as a hero ! No mention was made of all the wars and terror initiated by the Arabs against tiny Israel. But, in big bold characters, you could read that the Jews had massacred Arabs in 1994 (a reference to Baruch Goldstein) !
I am not saying that these examples are representative of all catholic attitudes. But our dear Catholic friends from JTF must keep in mind that antisemitism is certainly not dead within the Catholic church.

Offline MasterWolf1

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Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #115 on: September 21, 2010, 10:45:21 AM »

Yes Masterwolf is a great member but Ron was only defending himself, as you know everyone is against him yet again.

Bryan, I am not "against Ron."

That said, I am against anti-Italian slurs - I don't think they have a place on this forum - and I don't think it's called for to lash out against people personally if there's a disagreement about something unless they personally express nazi or nazi-like views.  I think it gets excessive to ascribe these views to people based on their ethnicity, if they never expressed the view themself.  

There are loads of antisemites out there, I see them in facebook all the time.  Western antisemites - american, british, all kinds.   And they say really disgusting things in favor of their pet-Arabs and "Palestine" against Jews, commenting on my friends' walls and posts.    The people here can't be blamed for spouting those views if the people here don't spout them!   Certainly I think all JTF'ers would strongly disagree with views like the ones I'm referring to, when I see those comments in facebook.  It's not fair to imply that secretly or otherwise, the JTF'ers really hold those views.    Unless some individual person exhibits that demonstrably, that is an insane accusation.

If you say Ron was saying things in self defense, then you can make the same argument for Masterwolf saying things for himself and we get nowhere.

Most western Anti Semites, such as Americans and British aren't even religious believers period. Many are leftists, many are Atheist and yet have the urge to suck up to the Arab Muslim cockroaches.  I have confronted many of them and then the go in a full anti religion mode. True Christians (By the way Catholics are a denomination of Christianity, so we too like other denominations are under the umbrella of Christianity) Do know the true beliefs that Israel is the light of our salvation that is in our teachings.  Western Anti Semites bash the Jews like the bash the Christians.  In this country every December they get all upset if a Christmas tree or a Menorah is on display, and yet they tell us we should tolerate Ramadan's holiday.  In my neighborhood we had Jews and Christians and we all got along.. Yes I know Ron is not living in the U.S. and he doesn't know how we do things here? But after what he said to me yesterday I find him a tad unstable.  For him to throw around to people the term Nazi on this forum especially where we all put such time and effort to accomplish this is really disgraceful.  This sounds mildly the same like blacks in this country if you don't agree with them they call you honkey or cracka.  You all understand where I am getting at on this? The majority of Christians in this country mainly who believe are not Nazis.  As far as the Pope goes, no Catholic follower has a say on who is elected Pope.  I don't always agree with him the church has to man up for the crimes in their pass as a faith and people.  But we can't also be told we are responsible for what some people did 60 years ago like we caused it.  I was born in 75 and already have seen my share of Anti Catholic bashing in this country it is very wide spread.  Not to mention the Italian stereotype which he also put on the table.. The Pizza thing the um Mafia thing? So he thinks we are all like this then he is a very narrow minded flea.   And he has a lot of growing up to do if he expects to get along with anyone else.
RIGHT WING AMERICAN AND PROUD OF IT. IF YOU WANTED TO PROVE YOU WEREN'T A "RACIST" IN 2008 BY VOTING FOR OBAMA, THEN PROVE IN 2012 YOU ARE NOT AN IDIOT FOR VOTING AGAINST OBAMA!

Offline MasterWolf1

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Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #116 on: September 21, 2010, 10:52:12 AM »

Let us just agree that the church has a history which needs to be forgiven.


No offense Muman, but I resent this statement, that I find surprisingly anti-Jewish by the way : no, the horrible crimes committed by people who claimed to represent catholicism although they were acting in contradiction with what Jesus taught, must NOT be forgiven.
This does not mean that I resent Catholics in general for what some of them did in the past. Personally, if it wasn't for a Catholic priest, I wouldn't be alive today. My grandfather was hidden and cared for by a Catholic priest during WWII. So I know what "righteous Gentile" means and I have the highest respect for righteous Gentiles.

There is nothing anti-Jewish in what I said. I said that the Church needs to ask for our forgiveness, apologize for its evil ways, and remove the offensive sections which inspired so much anti-semitism. I have seen that the NT is full of anti-semitic contents. The Jews are called sons of devils, amongst other things. When I was young I had a school-mate who told me because I was Jewish I was going to hell, my mom was told that she had horns when she was a child... The antisemitism which is in the NT is disgusting...

As long as the church teaches the NT to its congregants there will be continued antisemitism.

I think this is not anti-Jewish, it is standing up for the Jewish people against the taught antisemitism of christianity..



All right, I misunderstood what you wrote. I agree with what you write here. By the way, here is another anecdote similar to those you tell : due to complicated circumstances, my mother had to spend one year at a catholic school when she was fourteen; no other girl would talk to her or invite her; she was told that she was guilty of the murder of Jesus... The teachers did try to lecture the girls but that did not make much difference.
Another anecdote. Last summer, I visited a church in France. There was an exhibition inside the church about recent history : Arafat was presented as a hero ! No mention was made of all the wars and terror initiated by the Arabs against tiny Israel. But, in big bold characters, you could read that the Jews had massacred Arabs in 1994 (a reference to Baruch Goldstein) !
I am not saying that these examples are representative of all catholic attitudes. But our dear Catholic friends from JTF must keep in mind that antisemitism is certainly not dead within the Catholic church.

France? The French always thought they were also high and mighty over anybody else.. They look down on their noses to this country and if it wasn't for the United States. France's main language would of been German.  The French had a history of sucking up to the Muslims, now they got their hands full with the Muslims but maybe that is how the schools in France is like or the Church,, but in this country no not at all.. I would challenge people like that in my own faith.  People confuse the actual teachings to what they make up in their own brains on how to think or say and it has nothing to do with the teachings.  Our teachings are told to love our neighbors the way you want them to love you.  With the French if you are bringing them up that is not the teaching that is France being it's usual arrogant France.
RIGHT WING AMERICAN AND PROUD OF IT. IF YOU WANTED TO PROVE YOU WEREN'T A "RACIST" IN 2008 BY VOTING FOR OBAMA, THEN PROVE IN 2012 YOU ARE NOT AN IDIOT FOR VOTING AGAINST OBAMA!

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #117 on: September 21, 2010, 10:57:01 AM »
bullcat3:  "Ron's misplaced hatred, against Christian members here, seems insignificant in the grand scheme of things. "

There are only two ancient civilizations today which have survived to the present day:  the Jews and the Chinese.

Both have done so maintaining a continuous history and culture, and both have arrived at the present time with their national languages still intact.

We Jews should learn a lesson from the Chinese which they've known for quite some time:

Only history decides and judges the significance of leadership and government 'in the great scheme of things'.

The work of Chaim and JTF may well come to be viewed as a mere footnote in future written histories, one marked with the briefest of mentions as to how errors in judgment combined with organizational missteps, resulting in the complete failure of a movement founded on Jewish values.



I really do hope Massuh, that if you have ideas on how to run JTF more optimally or improve the organization that you are sharing those ideas with Chaim by private message because I'm sure he'd be open to hearing them and possibly implementing them.

If, on the other hand, you are merely criticizing JTF as a whole without offering any solutions or any real way to improve it, I must say it appears a bit empty.   It's easy for a person to say, "you should have done better." or "I would do better if I was in charge."  It's much harder to say, "this is how things could be better if you did x, y, and z" and actually give ideas that you think would improve the situation.   I really hope it's the former and not the latter.  If so please share your ideas for improving JTF, with Chaim and/or with all of us.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 11:12:35 AM by Kahane-Was-Right BT »

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #118 on: September 21, 2010, 11:03:27 AM »
Muman, can you address my previous post on this page? You posted this long message board post that has so much nonsense on it that has nothing to do with supposed Christian NT anti-semitism.

As for this statement:

"and the blasphemy of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but are a synagogue of Satan."

This refers to condemning the pharisees who were in league with Rome.

Historically, wasn't Jesus a Pharisee (although went off from the path of our rabbis to teach additional things we don't believe)?   I could be wrong, but I thought I had read that.


Also, it's not historically correct that the Pharisees were in league with the Romans.   The Romans murdered many Pharisee rabbis including the greatest Rabbi of the Oral law - Rabbi Akiva.  They murdered him for teaching Torah publically to Jews.  (Judaism is based entirely on the teachings of the "Pharisee" rabbis - those who continued the tradition of the Prophets and Men of the Great Assembly before them).   So if that's an alliance with Rome, what kind of alliance is that?

I think the historical Pharisee, Sadducee thing is getting confused.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 11:14:21 AM by Kahane-Was-Right BT »

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #119 on: September 21, 2010, 11:06:18 AM »

Yes Masterwolf is a great member but Ron was only defending himself, as you know everyone is against him yet again.

Bryan, I am not "against Ron."

That said, I am against anti-Italian slurs - I don't think they have a place on this forum - and I don't think it's called for to lash out against people personally if there's a disagreement about something unless they personally express nazi or nazi-like views.  I think it gets excessive to ascribe these views to people based on their ethnicity, if they never expressed the view themself.  

There are loads of antisemites out there, I see them in facebook all the time.  Western antisemites - american, british, all kinds.   And they say really disgusting things in favor of their pet-Arabs and "Palestine" against Jews, commenting on my friends' walls and posts.    The people here can't be blamed for spouting those views if the people here don't spout them!   Certainly I think all JTF'ers would strongly disagree with views like the ones I'm referring to, when I see those comments in facebook.  It's not fair to imply that secretly or otherwise, the JTF'ers really hold those views.    Unless some individual person exhibits that demonstrably, that is an insane accusation.

If you say Ron was saying things in self defense, then you can make the same argument for Masterwolf saying things for himself and we get nowhere.

Most western Anti Semites, such as Americans and British aren't even religious believers period. Many are leftists, many are Atheist and yet have the urge to suck up to the Arab Muslim cockroaches.  I have confronted many of them and then the go in a full anti religion mode. True Christians (By the way Catholics are a denomination of Christianity, so we too like other denominations are under the umbrella of Christianity) Do know the true beliefs that Israel is the light of our salvation that is in our teachings.  Western Anti Semites bash the Jews like the bash the Christians.  

I grant your point... These people I see in facebook are actually most often atheists who belittle the idea of G-d in their stupid arguments too.   

On the other hand, when I was in Hevron, there were European "church groups" of christians who came to Israel in order to protest Jewish presence in Hevron, inflame Arabs of Hevron into murdering Jews and to portray settler Jews as thieves and animals.   We took a tour of Hevron during Shabbath, and these disgusting freaks were following around the group taking pictures of us and video taping us, verbally trying to provoke Jews to do something back to get it on tape and then post it on youtube.   

So, there exists hatred from many places - from religious and from non-religious - but I'm just saying that let's keep it focused on what individuals actually demonstrate by their own behaviors, not judging people on ethnicity or country of origin or what religious sect they belong to, etc.   Let's give people a fair chance is all I'm saying.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #120 on: September 21, 2010, 11:11:41 AM »
Historically, wasn't Jesus a Pharisee?


Also, it's not historically correct that the Pharisees were in league with the Romans.   The Romans murdered many Pharisee rabbis including the greatest Rabbi of the Oral law - Rabbi Akiva.  They murdered him for teaching Torah publically to Jews.  (Judaism is based entirely on the teachings of the "Pharisees" who continued the tradition of the Prophets and Men of the Great Assembly before them).   So if that's an alliance with Rome, what kind of alliance is that?

I think the historical Pharisee, Sadducee thing is getting confused.
Yes, and so was Paul, etc.

The NT is not referring to all members of the Pharisaical branch, just those who directly opposed Jesus' teachings.

Offline TheCoon

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Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #121 on: September 21, 2010, 11:13:23 AM »
Muman, can you address my previous post on this page? You posted this long message board post that has so much nonsense on it that has nothing to do with supposed Christian NT anti-semitism.

As for this statement:

"and the blasphemy of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but are a synagogue of Satan."

This refers to condemning the pharisees who were in league with Rome.

Historically, wasn't Jesus a Pharisee?


Also, it's not historically correct that the Pharisees were in league with the Romans.   The Romans murdered many Pharisee rabbis including the greatest Rabbi of the Oral law - Rabbi Akiva.  They murdered him for teaching Torah publically to Jews.  (Judaism is based entirely on the teachings of the "Pharisees" who continued the tradition of the Prophets and Men of the Great Assembly before them).   So if that's an alliance with Rome, what kind of alliance is that?

I think the historical Pharisee, Sadducee thing is getting confused.

Obviously he split from the Jewish religious leadership of his day. Jesus referred to the pharisees in Smyrna when he made that statement. This is why it can't be viewed as a condemnation of all Jews or even all Pharisees. It was a condemnation of the religioous establishment there who the Christians felt were betraying their Jewish followers by being in league with Rome. It is documented historical fact that Jews at times in the Roman empire had special treatment from the Roman authorities. We can obviously agree/disagree on theology.
The city isn't what it used to be. It all happened so fast. Everything went to crap. It's like... everyone's sense of morals just disappeared. Bad economy made things worse. Jobs started drying up, then the stores had to shut down. Then a black man was elected president. He was supposed to change things. He didn't. More and more people turned to crime and violence... The town becomes gripped with fear. Dark times, dark times... I am the hero this town needs. I am... The Coon!!!

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #122 on: September 21, 2010, 11:15:06 AM »
It is documented historical fact that Jews at times in the Roman empire had special treatment from the Roman authorities. We can obviously agree/disagree on theology.
Obviously that didn't last long as history shows.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #123 on: September 21, 2010, 11:20:59 AM »
Muman, can you address my previous post on this page? You posted this long message board post that has so much nonsense on it that has nothing to do with supposed Christian NT anti-semitism.

As for this statement:

"and the blasphemy of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but are a synagogue of Satan."

This refers to condemning the pharisees who were in league with Rome.

Historically, wasn't Jesus a Pharisee?


Also, it's not historically correct that the Pharisees were in league with the Romans.   The Romans murdered many Pharisee rabbis including the greatest Rabbi of the Oral law - Rabbi Akiva.  They murdered him for teaching Torah publically to Jews.  (Judaism is based entirely on the teachings of the "Pharisees" who continued the tradition of the Prophets and Men of the Great Assembly before them).   So if that's an alliance with Rome, what kind of alliance is that?

I think the historical Pharisee, Sadducee thing is getting confused.

Obviously he split from the Jewish religious leadership of his day. 
  Right, no question about that.  I did alter my comment slightly to make it more clear that I was referring to that as well.

Quote
Jesus referred to the pharisees in Smyrna when he made that statement. This is why it can't be viewed as a condemnation of all Jews or even all Pharisees. It was a condemnation of the religioous establishment there who the Christians felt were betraying their Jewish followers by being in league with Rome. It is documented historical fact that Jews at times in the Roman empire had special treatment from the Roman authorities. We can obviously agree/disagree on theology.

It appears we will have to disagree on both theology and history.   Please refer me to sources which show special treatment to Jews from the Romans.   Jews - in other words, the denizens of the Judean polity - were a conquered, occupied subject entity like any other group (pagan or otherwise) that Romans conquered throughout the world as far as I know (although other groups and peoples more easily and more readily assimilated to the Roman system, ways, and culture).   Jews did have the national control of this place before Romans conquered, but I'm still a bit puzzled as to what you're referring to.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #124 on: September 21, 2010, 11:31:21 AM »
Jesus was not a Pharisee, he was a carpenter, HUGE difference. The Pharisee's were the religious leaders in the community...Jesus was anti Pharisee if you remember correctly. Judas was friend's with the Pharisee's, yes Paul, was a Pharisee, he was Saul when he was on the board, until he had his conversion on the road to damascus.
Uggh.