Author Topic: The Real Israel (ehem ,Juda) coming in 2020.Ironically his article gives hope  (Read 3757 times)

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Offline Chai

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http://www.haaretz.com/culture/will-israel-turn-into-the-fascist-state-of-judea-by-2022-1.303585



State-wide censorship of sexually explicit material on the internet. Laws prohibiting driving vehicles on the Sabbath and Jewish holidays. Women allowed to bathe in the Mediterranean only a few hours a week. The face of Baruch Goldstein on the 20 shekel bill. A national holiday celebrating our spiritual founding father, Rabbi Meir Kahane.

Sound ludicrous? It's the nightmare scenario of art school graduate Yosi Even Kama - and the subject of his 4th-year thesis project. Any Israeli can step into his dystopia, on exhibit at the Shenkar College of Engineering & Design in Ramat Gan until the end of July.
Hebrew: Here comes peace / Leftists pollute education
Hebrew: Here comes peace / Leftists pollute educationDavid Sheen
1/11

The project consists of four cylindrical public notice boards representing four different snapshots in time from the streets of Tel Aviv, between the years 2020 to 2023. In this twisted parallel universe, the government of Israel finally signs a peace deal with the Palestinians, in which it agrees to withdraw from the West Bank and share control over Jerusalem.

Incensed by what they believe to be high treason, Jewish supremacists manage to mobilize tens of thousands of Israeli citizens and successfully carry out a coup d'etat. In the newly-established State of Judea, there is no freedom, no feminism, and no fun. Only fascism.

"I read the most recent survey of Israeli society and I was shocked," Even Kama recalled. That report, commissioned by the Tami Steinmetz Center for Peace Research at Tel Aviv University, found that most Israelis believe that "there is too much freedom of expression" in Israel.

So this is what will come to pass in only ten years' time? "It won't happen exactly like that. But it's already happening right now, bit by bit: the loyalty oath law, the religious conversion law, the ban on commemorating the naqba, the ban on demonstrating at the homes of high-ranking army officers... When you break down the basic building blocks of democracy, fascism will fill that void."
Artist Yosi Even Kama    

Artist Yosi Even Kama
Photo by: David Sheen

They are not our brothers

In the run-up to a totalitarian state, Even Kama's made-up religious right-wing extremists combine visual imagery of slithery snakes and armies of insects with slogans that demonize democratic institutions. In the following year of this imaginary timeline, the rebels post pictures of snakes being sliced open and bugs being squashed, as they make their power play with an armed insurrection.

Following the fictional narrative, what remains of the liberal left in Israel sells off its properties and evacuates the country while it is still able. And finally, fabricated rabbinical edicts quoting traditional texts provide a religious justification for the execution of the secular heretics that resist the new order.

Destroying Democracy

Unsurprisingly, Even Kama's provocative project has angered many people on the opposite end of the political spectrum. On srugim.com, an internet news portal for the nationalist-religious community, many have vilified the artist, and the Shenkar school for providing him a platform. But other visitors to the site admit that they admire his designs and even advocate adopting them. "I would use different colors, but this is basically what I believe," wrote one commenter.

These undercurrents have not escaped the attention of more mainstream political commentators. Last month (June 22, 2010), reporting on the same set of phenomena that is frightening Even Kama, retired judge and Yediot Ahronot Legal Affairs Editor Boaz Okon wrote in a chilling op-ed piece: "These dots are growing evidence of the lack of spirit of freedom and the emergence of apartheid and fascism."

Using iconography that references our historical memories of evil dictatorships is bound to push people's buttons; the most amazing artwork almost always does. It is easy to dismiss the "State of Judea" as agitation against Even Kama's political opponents. But it's a lot harder to dismiss the anti-democratic parties and populist movements that he parodies. One thing is certain: if his deepest fears are realized, he could be the first one to be burned at the stake.




well to Haarez I say Its either the Arabs or us  :laugh:

HAHA  the left has its back to the wall and they sound freaking >:( pissed!
this article gives me hope..Ironically enough
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 11:02:52 PM by Chai »

Offline Ari Ben-Canaan

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"Freedom of speech and expression"?  In Israel?  Put Kach back in the voting booth or STFU!!
"You must keep the arab under your boot or he will be at your throat" -Unknown

"When we tell the Arab, ‘Come, I want to help you and see to your needs,’ he doesn’t look at us like gentlemen. He sees weakness and then the wolf shows what he can do.” - Maimonides

 “I am all peace, but when I speak, they are for war.” -Psalms 120:7

"The difference between a Jewish liberal and a Jewish conservative is that when a Jewish liberal walks out of the Holocaust Museum, he feels, "This shows why we need to have more tolerance and multiculturalism." The Jewish conservative feels, "We should have killed a lot more Nazis, and sooner."" - Philip Klein

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Put Kach back in the voting booth or STFU!!

Put Kach back in the voting booth or STFU!!

Put Kach back in the voting booth or STFU!!

Put Kach back in the voting booth or STFU!!

Put Kach back in the voting booth or STFU!!

Put Kach back in the voting booth or STFU!!

Put Kach back in the voting booth or STFU!!

Offline Ulli

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 :::D I think even we would not print such advertising. But better B. Goldstein on the shekel bill than I. Rabin. And althrough the leftists will never believe, Rabbi M. Kahane was a very mild man and he derserves to be remembered. I am shure he didn't enjoyed to attack the Arab Muslims so hard, but like we see today he was right. He did it, because it was necessary. By the way, I think he was one of the most influencial people in the last decades. With his speeches he influenced the whole western world. Wilders is for shure influenced, by adopting the concept of the transfer.
"Cities run by progressives don't know how to police. ... Thirty cities went up last night, I went and looked at every one of them. Every one of them has a progressive Democratic mayor." Rudolph Giuliani

Offline Chai

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Technically, the area is Judah.

The sewers  all have the symbol of the lion lol its kina cute.

Offline Meerkat

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"Freedom of speech and expression"?  In Israel?  Put Kach back in the voting booth or STFU!!


i agree. we should put kach on the ballot, but keep freedom of expression and all the good stuff.  ^^ (look at my name)

Offline muman613

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It would be AWESOME if within 15 years Israel becomes the Nation state it was intended to be. Im sure those liberal wimps will be shaking in their boots, but too bad for them. There is nothing which can stop the progression of Hashems will. If only the Jewish people will take their responsibility seriously and establish the Torah state which will bring an era of peace and prosperity to the world.

Those who fear this are very wicked in their hearts. The wicked fear the righteous because they know that when the messianic age begins they (the wicked) will be utterly destroyed. A state which celebrates its great Rabbis like Rabbi Kahane and observes the Sabbath by forbidding driving will surely flip the world back onto the right track...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Meerkat

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"Freedom of speech and expression"?  In Israel?  Put Kach back in the voting booth or STFU!!


i agree. we should put kach on the ballot, but keep freedom of expression and all the good stuff.  ^^ (look at my name)

Uh, there are some situations where 'freedom of expression' is forbidden... Hashem commands that anyone who profanes the name of Hashem should be executed. Im sure the liberals have a problem with that one..



don't you see an obvious flaw to that? rabbis are human, and human beings tend to be really corrupt. we can't give arbitrary execution power to a human. i think its best if we allow (and encourage) people to voluntarily abstain from blasphemy.

Offline muman613

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"Freedom of speech and expression"?  In Israel?  Put Kach back in the voting booth or STFU!!


i agree. we should put kach on the ballot, but keep freedom of expression and all the good stuff.  ^^ (look at my name)

Uh, there are some situations where 'freedom of expression' is forbidden... Hashem commands that anyone who profanes the name of Hashem should be executed. Im sure the liberals have a problem with that one..



don't you see an obvious flaw to that? rabbis are human, and human beings tend to be really corrupt. we can't give arbitrary execution power to a human. i think its best if we allow (and encourage) people to voluntarily abstain from blasphemy.

Yes, Rabbis are human... But death penalties are determined by the Beit Din, the Jewish court, or the Sanhedrin the Supreme Court...

The level of evidence required for a Jewish court to impose a death sentence is much greater than the American justice system. It is said that the Jewish courts did not execute one man every seventy years, if it did so it was a cruel court. Jewish courts require two valid witnesses that the person actually commited the sin, and even after witnessing it the violator must be given verbal warnings. If he continues to violate then it is taken to court.

Freedom of speech is a privelege and not a right. People need to be responsible in their speech. The mouth is considered one of the most violent weapons known to man. Lashon Hara is a serious offense which on some levels even rises to the level of Murder.



Quote
http://www.ou.org/public_affairs/article/njd_tradition_cp/



FIRST PRINCIPLES

If one can be certain of anything in a discussion of Judaism's views regarding capital punishment, especially those held in a public forum, it is that the following statement in the Mishna (Makkot 1:10) will be quoted:

A Sanhedrin that executed [more than] one person in a week is called a "murderous" [court]. Rabbi Elazar ben Azarya states: "[More than] one person in 70 years [would be denoted a murderous court]." Rabbi Tarfon and Rabbi Akiva state: "If we had been members of the Sanhedrin, no defendant would ever have been executed."

While this passage properly finds its way into all discussions of the Torah's approach to the death penalty, other Mishnaic statements of equal authority with different perspectives seem to be often overlooked. In fact, the very Mishna quoted above gives the last word to R. Shimon ben Gamiliel, who responds that had they indeed ensured that the death penalty would never be carried out, R. Tarfon and R. Akiva "would have been increasing the murderers in Israel."

In the complete Mishnaic citation we see our tradition grappling with the core question that confronts every society which contemplates utilizing capital punishment as a component of its criminal justice system -- how can a society protect human lives with an institution that itself takes human life? To answer this question, we must turn to another Mishna. Sanhedrin 4:5 states:

Man was created single [in the person of Adam], to teach you that anyone who eliminates one person in Israel, the Torah considers it as though an entire world has been eliminated; and anyone that sustains one person is Israel, the Torah considers it as though an entire world has been sustained....And [man was created single], to proclaim the greatness of the Holy One; a person can mint many coins with one mold, and they will all be identical in appearance; and the King of Kings....made all of mankind from the mold of Adam the first, and no one person is identical to the other. Thus, each individual person must say "for me was the world created."

Among the Torah's seminal and timeless gifts to the world -- a world that has seen societies that have endorsed everything from ancient child sacrifices to false gods to modern campaigns of ethnic cleansing -- is this teaching of the infinite value of each human life.

What is most striking, however, about this critical Mishna is the context in which the lesson is presented. These noble words are in answer to the Mishna's question of ketsad me'aymin et ha-edim -- how does the court instill awe and fear into witnesses in capital cases so that they will testify truthfully? The very passage that proclaims our recognition of the value of each life is presented and utilized in the capital case! Moreover, instilling fear into witnesses is but one of the many procedural safeguards required in capital cases. Other well known safeguards include requirements for two simultaneous witnesses to the crime who were not only viewing the perpetrator but also saw each other and had time to properly warn the perpetrator of the nature of his crime and punishment prior to his committing the act.

Judaism, it seems, is of two minds about capital punishment. But we can discover where the heart of our tradition lies in one more halakha.
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MODERN PERSPECTIVES

The challenge here, as with many other issues of this sort, for Orthodox Jews committed to the principle that the Torah's teachings are timeless and relevant to all societies in which we find ourselves, is determining how we might realize these ideals, and perhaps advocate for them in our milieu, the Diaspora of the United States.

An interesting point of departure for considering this question is a letter obtained by an officer of the Orthodox Union from R. Ahron Soloveichik in the mid-1970s, at a time when apparently the OU was considering what position to voice in a domestic debate regarding capital punishment.1 R. Soloveichik wrote:

t is irresponsible and unfair to submit a statement in favor of capital punishment in the name of Orthodox Jewry. In my humble opinion, from a Halachik point of view, every Jew should be opposed to capital punishment. It is true...that the Torah recognizes capital punishment. However, the Torah delegates the authority to mete out capital punishment only to Sanhedrin, not to anyone else. Even Sanhedrin are [sic] not able to mete out capital punishment if there is no Beis Hamikdash.

B'zman she'yesh kohen makriv, yesh nefashot, b'zman she'ayn kohen makriv, ayn nefashot. Even capital punishment among B'nei Noach cannot be meted out when there is no kohen makriv.

The letter continued to state:

If a Sanhedrin carried out one execution in seven years it is characterized as a murderous Sanhedrin. Rabbi Akiva and Rabbi Tarfon say that if they had been in Sanhedrin, no person would have ever been executed. . . .

There are several responses to R. Soloveichik's strong declaration. First, R. Soloveichik gives no weight to R. Shimon ben Gamliel's "last word" and instead takes his hashkafic cues from the "once-in-seven years" pronouncement. But there is a more fundamental means of respectfully disagreeing with R. Soloveichik's reasoning. The pesukim from which the principle of bizman she-yesh kohen makriv is derived is clearly speaking to the functioning of the Jewish court system and its use of the death penalty.

If there arise a matter too hard for you in judgment, between blood and blood [dam le-dam], between plea and plea [din le-din], and between stroke and stroke [nega la-nega], even matters of controversy within your gates; then you shall arise, and go unto the place which the Lord your God shall choose. And you shall come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days; and you shall inquire; and they shall declare unto you the sentence of judgment (Devarim 17:8-9).

The Torah's linkage of issues of dam, din, and nega for determination by arbiters sitting in "The Place" and connected to kohanim can only be understood as relevant to the Jewish legal system. These components are not relevant to the administration of a justice system by a non-Jewish state, one of the basic sheva mitsvot benei Noah every society is required to undertake.

This peshat, although not explicitly stated, is harmonious with a 1981 responsum of R. Moshe Feinstein.2 Asked by an unidentified (American?) government official, denoted by R. Moshe as "sar hamedina," for the Jewish view on capital punishment, R. Moshe concisely but comprehensively summarizes the procedural and substantive elements of the Torah's capital system. In the synopsis, R. Moshe does not reference the Mishna regarding the "murderous Sanhedrin" at all. He does cite the principle of not hearing capital cases without the Bet Hamikdash standing, but clearly indicates its relevance is only to Jewish courts:

It is not possible to adjudicate capital cases except when the Bet Hamikdash is standing and the Sanhedrin of 71 sits in the lishkat hagazit, and that is why we have not adjudicated capital cases even in countries wherein there was permission from the sovereign for the Jews to adjudicate for themselves under Torah law.


« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 05:15:39 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Meerkat

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"Freedom of speech and expression"?  In Israel?  Put Kach back in the voting booth or STFU!!


i agree. we should put kach on the ballot, but keep freedom of expression and all the good stuff.  ^^ (look at my name)

Uh, there are some situations where 'freedom of expression' is forbidden... Hashem commands that anyone who profanes the name of Hashem should be executed. Im sure the liberals have a problem with that one..



don't you see an obvious flaw to that? rabbis are human, and human beings tend to be really corrupt. we can't give arbitrary execution power to a human. i think its best if we allow (and encourage) people to voluntarily abstain from blasphemy.

Yes, Rabbis are human... But death penalties are determined by the Beit Din, the Jewish court, or the Sanhedrin the Supreme Court...

The level of evidence required for a Jewish court to impose a death sentence is much greater than the American justice system. It is said that the Jewish courts did not execute one man every seventy years, if it did so it was a cruel court. Jewish courts require two valid witnesses that the person actually commited the sin, and even after witnessing it the violator must be given verbal warnings. If he continues to violate then it is taken to court.

Freedom of speech is a privelege and not a right. People need to be responsible in their speech. The mouth is considered one of the most violent weapons known to man. Lashon Hara is a serious offense which on some levels even rises to the level of Murder.


the problem is not who determines if someone commits blasphemy, the problem is who determines what is blasphemy. im sure it seems fine if religious zionists are in power, but what if a slimeball from neturei karta gets some power. welcome to planet earth, a place where people sell there own mothers.

maybe its because im a ukranina-born jew, but i like the ideology that the soviet jews have. secular, but really nationalist.

Offline muman613

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"Freedom of speech and expression"?  In Israel?  Put Kach back in the voting booth or STFU!!


i agree. we should put kach on the ballot, but keep freedom of expression and all the good stuff.  ^^ (look at my name)

Uh, there are some situations where 'freedom of expression' is forbidden... Hashem commands that anyone who profanes the name of Hashem should be executed. Im sure the liberals have a problem with that one..



don't you see an obvious flaw to that? rabbis are human, and human beings tend to be really corrupt. we can't give arbitrary execution power to a human. i think its best if we allow (and encourage) people to voluntarily abstain from blasphemy.

Yes, Rabbis are human... But death penalties are determined by the Beit Din, the Jewish court, or the Sanhedrin the Supreme Court...

The level of evidence required for a Jewish court to impose a death sentence is much greater than the American justice system. It is said that the Jewish courts did not execute one man every seventy years, if it did so it was a cruel court. Jewish courts require two valid witnesses that the person actually commited the sin, and even after witnessing it the violator must be given verbal warnings. If he continues to violate then it is taken to court.

Freedom of speech is a privelege and not a right. People need to be responsible in their speech. The mouth is considered one of the most violent weapons known to man. Lashon Hara is a serious offense which on some levels even rises to the level of Murder.


the problem is not who determines if someone commits blasphemy, the problem is who determines what is blasphemy. im sure it seems fine if religious zionists are in power, but what if a slimeball from neturei karta gets some power. welcome to planet earth, a place where people sell there own mothers.

maybe its because im a ukranina-born jew, but i like the ideology that the soviet jews have. secular, but really nationalist.

I am sure that Blasphemy is Blashphemy for religious zionists and for NK... Why would there be any difference?

Here is some discussion on that topic:

http://www.ou.org/torah/article/mitzvah70



70. Unthinkable: The prohibition against blasphemy
Rabbi Jack Abramowitz

As we said in the previous mitzvah, the word “Hashem” can have multiple meanings. Here, it is taken to mean G-d.

One might ask why this injunction counts as two distinct mitzvos. The Rambam, in the last of his 14 principles for identifying the 613 mitzvos, tells us that if the Torah tells us the penalty for an action, the prohibition must also be found somewhere. Since we see the penalty for blasphemy (Leviticus 24:16), we have to see where it’s prohibited. The Rambam tells us that it’s here: the same verse prohibits cursing both judges and G-d. (See also the discussion of a “lav she’bichlalos” in his ninth principle.)

The idea of cursing G-d is so reprehensible that we don’t even call it that in Hebrew. In Hebrew, it’s called “birkas Hashem,” which means “blessing the Name (of G-d).” It’s a necessary euphemism because the idea of cursing G-d is so utterly unthinkable (or should be!).

The reason for the mitzvah is clear: G-d is the source of all. Everything He has given us is for our good. To curse Him (G-d forbid!) is to spurn all He has done for us. It is especially a misuse of the power of speech, which He has given exclusively to mankind. Blasphemy is so reviled that, upon hearing it, a Jew is to rip his clothes as he does in mourning. (In II Kings 18, the servants of the king tore their garments upon hearing blasphemy from Ravshakeh, an apostate Jew.)

This mitzvah applies to both men and women, in all times and places. It is discussed in the Talmudic tractate of Sanhedrin on page 56a. In the Mishneh Torah, it is found in Hilchos Avodas Kochavim chapter 2. It is #60 of the 365 negative mitzvos in the Rambam’s Sefer HaMitzvos. Even though this mitzvah is in effect today, the Chofetz Chaim incorporates it in his treatment of the previous mitzvah in his Sefer HaMitzvos HaKatzar.



BTW, NK differs from other Jewish groups in that they are violently anti-Zionist. We curse them because they end up helping our enemies. But their basic Jewish belief is almost the same as most Chassidic Jews... Though they may feel that our Zionism is a Chillul Hashem {I do not know because I do not associate with these cretins}

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Im sorry, here is a discussion of the penalty for 'blessing the name' {which is a nice way of saying Cursing G-d}...


http://noahidenations.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=148&Itemid=38
Quote

II. "Blessing" the Name

One of the Laws not understood in the non-Torah world is the prohibition against “blessing” the name. In Sanhedrin 56a the Talmud describes the legal proceedings against a person who “blesses the name.” During the trial the chief witness is asked to tell the court what was said using a euphemism “may Yosi strike Yosi.” Once this is done the court is cleared and only the judges and the witnesses remain. The chief witness is asked to tell the court exactly what the person in question said without the euphemism, using instead the name of God. Once this is done the other witnesses will say “I too heard as him.”

The penalty for “blessing the name of God” is a death penalty. In the case of the Jewish person they are executed by stoning. In the case of the non-Jew he is always executed through decapitation;which is considered a faster and less painful death than death by stoning.

Very often this Prohibition is confused with the prohibition in Shmot 20:7 against swearing falsely by God’s name. Swearing falsely by God’s name is much different but related to using God’s name to “bless” him.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Put Kach back in the voting booth or STFU!!

Put Kach back in the voting booth or STFU!!

Put Kach back in the voting booth or STFU!!

Put Kach back in the voting booth or STFU!!

Put Kach back in the voting booth or STFU!!

Put Kach back in the voting booth or STFU!!

Put Kach back in the voting booth or STFU!!

"That's what he said."

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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"Freedom of speech and expression"?  In Israel?  Put Kach back in the voting booth or STFU!!


i agree. we should put kach on the ballot, but keep freedom of expression and all the good stuff.  ^^ (look at my name)

Uh, there are some situations where 'freedom of expression' is forbidden... Hashem commands that anyone who profanes the name of Hashem should be executed. Im sure the liberals have a problem with that one..



don't you see an obvious flaw to that? rabbis are human, and human beings tend to be really corrupt. we can't give arbitrary execution power to a human. i think its best if we allow (and encourage) people to voluntarily abstain from blasphemy.

Well God disagrees, and that is why God empowered man with the duty of capital punishment.   If a Sanhedrin is reconstituted, there is no requirement for the rabbis sitting on it to be perfect in order to carry out death penalty sentences.  There is a place in Torah where it speaks about if the sanhedrin makes a mistake and what to do then!   So clearly they do not need to be perfect.    I don't know if death sentence for blasphemy will fly, but certainly we should start with the capital punishment for treason and if the state becomes more religious, see where it leads.

Offline Meerkat

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"Freedom of speech and expression"?  In Israel?  Put Kach back in the voting booth or STFU!!


i agree. we should put kach on the ballot, but keep freedom of expression and all the good stuff.  ^^ (look at my name)

Uh, there are some situations where 'freedom of expression' is forbidden... Hashem commands that anyone who profanes the name of Hashem should be executed. Im sure the liberals have a problem with that one..



don't you see an obvious flaw to that? rabbis are human, and human beings tend to be really corrupt. we can't give arbitrary execution power to a human. i think its best if we allow (and encourage) people to voluntarily abstain from blasphemy.

Well G-d disagrees, and that is why G-d empowered man with the duty of capital punishment.   If a Sanhedrin is reconstituted, there is no requirement for the rabbis sitting on it to be perfect in order to carry out death penalty sentences.  There is a place in Torah where it speaks about if the sanhedrin makes a mistake and what to do then!   So clearly they do not need to be perfect.    I don't know if death sentence for blasphemy will fly, but certainly we should start with the capital punishment for treason and if the state becomes more religious, see where it leads.

we should definitely execute people who commit treason or terrorism. i just don't think its the state's job to say what is blasphemy and what is not, let alone carry out executions for it.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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"Freedom of speech and expression"?  In Israel?  Put Kach back in the voting booth or STFU!!


i agree. we should put kach on the ballot, but keep freedom of expression and all the good stuff.  ^^ (look at my name)

Uh, there are some situations where 'freedom of expression' is forbidden... Hashem commands that anyone who profanes the name of Hashem should be executed. Im sure the liberals have a problem with that one..



don't you see an obvious flaw to that? rabbis are human, and human beings tend to be really corrupt. we can't give arbitrary execution power to a human. i think its best if we allow (and encourage) people to voluntarily abstain from blasphemy.

Well G-d disagrees, and that is why G-d empowered man with the duty of capital punishment.   If a Sanhedrin is reconstituted, there is no requirement for the rabbis sitting on it to be perfect in order to carry out death penalty sentences.  There is a place in Torah where it speaks about if the sanhedrin makes a mistake and what to do then!   So clearly they do not need to be perfect.    I don't know if death sentence for blasphemy will fly, but certainly we should start with the capital punishment for treason and if the state becomes more religious, see where it leads.

we should definitely execute people who commit treason or terrorism. i just don't think its the state's job to say what is blasphemy and what is not, let alone carry out executions for it.

In reality, the state's not saying it, the Torah is.   We have always known what constitutes this prohibition, and we have always as a culture steered clear of transgressing it.   Are there really people going around doing that today for no reason?   I've personally never witnessed this.   I doubt this would ever have to be carried out, but if someone gave reason to do it, they deserve it and bring it on themselves because really no one is doing this.   They are going out of their way to curse our society and our God, they are committing treason in a different way.

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re:  "...a Sanhedrin...reinstitute the death penalty...if the state becomes more religious, see where it leads.

I can tell you right now where it leads.

To a living Hell on Earth exactly like the Taliban in Afghanistan or the Iranian Mullahs.

To suddenly relaunch a criminal justice system which metes out the death penalty for crimes of adultery, cursing your parents, violating the Sabbath, homosexuality, and other such violations of Torah Law, on a population of Jews living in 2010, a full 2,000 years after such things long ago ended except in places considered by Jews to be the most savage and barbaric, is going to go over about as big as The Spanish Inquisition.

Had most of the members here been born and nurtured under such a legal system, there would be few, if any of us, who wouldn't have been put to death long ago by Holy Men.

Nor would there be any of us not long ago silenced and punished severely for "the sin of spreading confusion" (telling another Jew that life is hard in the new State of Judea) and "the sin of slandering the Land" [meaning any criticism whatsoever of corrupt and evil leadership or insane suicidal policies - be it from the Sanhedrin or others in government.

Rest assured that there was rarely a time in Jewish history when Jewish leaders were not throughly corrupt and evil.

Take for example our exalted heroes the Maccabees:

Within only one generation after they defeated the Assyrians and restored Temple worship their newly established Hasmonean Dynasty became was a nest of corruption.

You people here need to wake up and stop with your foolish delusions about continuing on with modern Jewish national life exactly as it was lived and practiced at the very moment that Rome destroyed Judea and sacked the Temple.

Any modern day Sanhedrin or Jewish Government will be compelled to act as Moses commanded the Children of Israel - to appoint Judges who would rule over the Children of Israel by "interpreting Torah according to each generation" - meaning that as people, society, customs, and knowledge are constantly changing and advancing, to the extent that today's modern Jews are pioneering new worlds in space exploration, and discovering new branches of medicine and science, Judges chosen for their wisdom and unquestionable character must interpret the Law according to the needs of modern highly educated Jews.

The Criminal Justice statutes of Torah Law were applicable and acceptable to ancient Jews from a now extinct ancient world, a people who lived in stone houses without indoor plumbing, walked on dirt roads behind donkeys and camels, knew absolutely nothing of science, genetics, modern medicine, vaccinations, internal combustion engines, electromagnetic transmissions of audio, video, and text, laser light and digital technology, let alone understood the germ theory of disease.

These were a people who were fanatically insisted that if something was not found written in Torah, then it was a lie, was impossible, and those who refused to accept their point of view were denounced as heretic or worse.

Yes, I know that immediately there'll be a contingent of forum members condemning MassuhD, calling me names, wanting to know how dare I question the very will of Ha'Shem, etc... but you are all, to the last man and woman, self-delusional liars and hypocrites.

This I state with absolute certainty, as none of you here on this forum would ever accept life under the strict literal Torah Criminal Justice Code and Capital Punishment Penalties as they were practiced circa 10 B.C.E.  . 

Not a day goes by here on the forum without regular condemnations and ridicule of the Islamic Sharia Law Penalties as nothing but barbarism and brutal acts of 6th Century maniacs who stone women to death, whip, amputate hands and feet, behead, hang, and allow wife beating.

But yesterday and today, almost the entire forum has been taken up with posts and threads about the suicide of a homosexual which resulted from school bullies, with threads by members insulting each other, accusing each other, berating each other, infuriating each other, and apologizing to each other ... even ending with a personal opinion and response by Chaim Ben Pesach stating that compassion should be shown to homosexuals.

And yet! ... With all the divisions this issue has revealed, "would-be holy men" are now all ready to fire up the animal sacrifices and then get down to the business at hand; that of killing all homosexuals, adulterers, children who have cursed their parents, and anyone who might have lit a fire on Shabbos to keep warm!

HOWEVER! ... Not so quick when it comes to charging an actual suspect seen running from a house covered in blood, after dozens of witnesses heard horrendous screams coming from someone inside the place, and then after the "suspect" ran out, the neighborhood went inside to find a woman dead on the floor stabbed one hundred times, and a bloody knife lying next to her body!

NO NO!

Can't jump to conclusions when it comes to Torah Law!

According to Torah Law, the "suspect" can not be found guilty of murder and executed, unless he is apprehended with the actual murder weapon in his hand, and unless two eye witnesses to the actual murder will testify that they saw the suspect commit the murder.

AND THEN! ... to make sure the two eye witnesses don't bear false witness against the accused, (of course Jews would never bear false witness against another Jew!) those who testify against the accused are required to act as his executioners, and must cast the first stones in the process of crushing the condemned to death.

"Death by stoning" was in general carried out by pushing the condemned off an enbankment into a quarry and then crush them to death by dropping huge flat stones on top of them.

And if the crime for which they were condemned was particularly egregious, Torah Law suggests that following the execution the dead body should be hung up on a tree or gate in public to rot and feed flies.

After all, it's the Will of Ha'Shem!

The Jew living in Medinat Judea 2010 MUST OBEY HA'SHEM'S EVERY WORD exactly as written !

AND IF YOU DON'T! ... IF YOU DON'T! ...

THEN YOU MUST BE PUT TO DEATH AND THEN HUNG UP ON A TREE TO ROT IN THE SUN!

(MassuhD suggests stringing the putrid mess across a tree or fence exactly adjacent to the most popular schwarma vendor - it always looks especially cool to have a crushed criminal strung up next to a huge chunk of steaming meat being cooked for a tasty meal - and the flies enjoy it too!)

:'(



Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re:  "...a Sanhedrin...reinstitute the death penalty...if the state becomes more religious, see where it leads.

I can tell you right now where it leads.

To a living Hell on Earth exactly like the Taliban in Afghanistan or the Iranian Mullahs. 

Someone sounds afraid.

Quote
To suddenly relaunch a criminal justice system which metes out the death penalty for crimes of adultery, cursing your parents, violating the Sabbath, homosexuality, and other such violations of Torah Law, 
  I don't think all of these things were mentioned.  Please read more carefully.

Quote
You people here need to wake up and stop with your foolish delusions about continuing on with modern Jewish national life exactly as it was lived and practiced at the very moment that Rome destroyed Judea and sacked the Temple.

I don't call for that.   Straw-man.

Quote
Any modern day Sanhedrin or Jewish Government will be compelled to act as Moses commanded the Children of Israel - to appoint Judges who would rule over the Children of Israel by "interpreting Torah according to each generation" - meaning that as people, society, customs, and knowledge are constantly changing and advancing, to the extent that today's modern Jews are pioneering new worlds in space exploration, and discovering new branches of medicine and science, Judges chosen for their wisdom and unquestionable character must interpret the Law according to the needs of modern highly educated Jews. 

Yet, the traitors will still be put to death.

Quote
The Criminal Justice statutes of Torah Law were applicable and acceptable to ancient Jews from a now extinct ancient world, a people who lived in stone houses without indoor plumbing, walked on dirt roads behind donkeys and camels, knew absolutely nothing of science, genetics, modern medicine, vaccinations, internal combustion engines, electromagnetic transmissions of audio, video, and text, laser light and digital technology, let alone understood the germ theory of disease.   

These modern issues are taken into account by the always evolving and developing Oral law.  That is why we adhere rabinic Judaism and not "fundamentalist" cults of the non-thinking literalists and written text worshippers.

Quote
These were a people who were fanatically insisted that if something was not found written in Torah, then it was a lie, was impossible, and those who refused to accept their point of view were denounced as heretic or worse. 

That does not describe the Judaism of chazal or rabbinic Judaism in general.  That describes the sadducee heresy and karaite heresy and extremism that tried to follow in its footsteps.   So it's once again a straw-man argument.

Quote
This I state with absolute certainty, as none of you here on this forum would ever accept life under the strict literal Torah Criminal Justice Code and Capital Punishment Penalties as they were practiced circa 10 B.C.E.  .    

"Strict literal?"   You mean with disregard to the teachings of the prophets and the chachamim known as chazal?   Yes, I would not accept life under that because that's heresy, not Judaism.

Offline Meerkat

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Re:  "...a Sanhedrin...reinstitute the death penalty...if the state becomes more religious, see where it leads.

I can tell you right now where it leads.

To a living Hell on Earth exactly like the Taliban in Afghanistan or the Iranian Mullahs.

To suddenly relaunch a criminal justice system which metes out the death penalty for crimes of adultery, cursing your parents, violating the Sabbath, homosexuality, and other such violations of Torah Law, on a population of Jews living in 2010, a full 2,000 years after such things long ago ended except in places considered by Jews to be the most savage and barbaric, is going to go over about as big as The Spanish Inquisition.

Had most of the members here been born and nurtured under such a legal system, there would be few, if any of us, who wouldn't have been put to death long ago by Holy Men.

Nor would there be any of us not long ago silenced and punished severely for "the sin of spreading confusion" (telling another Jew that life is hard in the new State of Judea) and "the sin of slandering the Land" [meaning any criticism whatsoever of corrupt and evil leadership or insane suicidal policies - be it from the Sanhedrin or others in government.

Rest assured that there was rarely a time in Jewish history when Jewish leaders were not throughly corrupt and evil.

Take for example our exalted heroes the Maccabees:

Within only one generation after they defeated the Assyrians and restored Temple worship their newly established Hasmonean Dynasty became was a nest of corruption.

You people here need to wake up and stop with your foolish delusions about continuing on with modern Jewish national life exactly as it was lived and practiced at the very moment that Rome destroyed Judea and sacked the Temple.

Any modern day Sanhedrin or Jewish Government will be compelled to act as Moses commanded the Children of Israel - to appoint Judges who would rule over the Children of Israel by "interpreting Torah according to each generation" - meaning that as people, society, customs, and knowledge are constantly changing and advancing, to the extent that today's modern Jews are pioneering new worlds in space exploration, and discovering new branches of medicine and science, Judges chosen for their wisdom and unquestionable character must interpret the Law according to the needs of modern highly educated Jews.

The Criminal Justice statutes of Torah Law were applicable and acceptable to ancient Jews from a now extinct ancient world, a people who lived in stone houses without indoor plumbing, walked on dirt roads behind donkeys and camels, knew absolutely nothing of science, genetics, modern medicine, vaccinations, internal combustion engines, electromagnetic transmissions of audio, video, and text, laser light and digital technology, let alone understood the germ theory of disease.

These were a people who were fanatically insisted that if something was not found written in Torah, then it was a lie, was impossible, and those who refused to accept their point of view were denounced as heretic or worse.

Yes, I know that immediately there'll be a contingent of forum members condemning MassuhD, calling me names, wanting to know how dare I question the very will of Ha'Shem, etc... but you are all, to the last man and woman, self-delusional liars and hypocrites.

This I state with absolute certainty, as none of you here on this forum would ever accept life under the strict literal Torah Criminal Justice Code and Capital Punishment Penalties as they were practiced circa 10 B.C.E.  . 

Not a day goes by here on the forum without regular condemnations and ridicule of the Islamic Sharia Law Penalties as nothing but barbarism and brutal acts of 6th Century maniacs who stone women to death, whip, amputate hands and feet, behead, hang, and allow wife beating.

But yesterday and today, almost the entire forum has been taken up with posts and threads about the suicide of a homosexual which resulted from school bullies, with threads by members insulting each other, accusing each other, berating each other, infuriating each other, and apologizing to each other ... even ending with a personal opinion and response by Chaim Ben Pesach stating that compassion should be shown to homosexuals.

And yet! ... With all the divisions this issue has revealed, "would-be holy men" are now all ready to fire up the animal sacrifices and then get down to the business at hand; that of killing all homosexuals, adulterers, children who have cursed their parents, and anyone who might have lit a fire on Shabbos to keep warm!

HOWEVER! ... Not so quick when it comes to charging an actual suspect seen running from a house covered in blood, after dozens of witnesses heard horrendous screams coming from someone inside the place, and then after the "suspect" ran out, the neighborhood went inside to find a woman dead on the floor stabbed one hundred times, and a bloody knife lying next to her body!

NO NO!

Can't jump to conclusions when it comes to Torah Law!

According to Torah Law, the "suspect" can not be found guilty of murder and executed, unless he is apprehended with the actual murder weapon in his hand, and unless two eye witnesses to the actual murder will testify that they saw the suspect commit the murder.

AND THEN! ... to make sure the two eye witnesses don't bear false witness against the accused, (of course Jews would never bear false witness against another Jew!) those who testify against the accused are required to act as his executioners, and must cast the first stones in the process of crushing the condemned to death.

"Death by stoning" was in general carried out by pushing the condemned off an enbankment into a quarry and then crush them to death by dropping huge flat stones on top of them.

And if the crime for which they were condemned was particularly egregious, Torah Law suggests that following the execution the dead body should be hung up on a tree or gate in public to rot and feed flies.

After all, it's the Will of Ha'Shem!

The Jew living in Medinat Judea 2010 MUST OBEY HA'SHEM'S EVERY WORD exactly as written !

AND IF YOU DON'T! ... IF YOU DON'T! ...

THEN YOU MUST BE PUT TO DEATH AND THEN HUNG UP ON A TREE TO ROT IN THE SUN!

(MassuhD suggests stringing the putrid mess across a tree or fence exactly adjacent to the most popular schwarma vendor - it always looks especially cool to have a crushed criminal strung up next to a huge chunk of steaming meat being cooked for a tasty meal - and the flies enjoy it too!)

:'(




WOW! i actually agree with someone.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Quote from: massuh

Not a day goes by here on the forum without regular condemnations and ridicule of the Islamic Sharia Law Penalties as nothing but barbarism and brutal acts of 6th Century maniacs who stone women to death, whip, amputate hands and feet, behead, hang, and allow wife beating.

But yesterday and today, almost the entire forum has been taken up with posts and threads about the suicide of a homosexual which resulted from school bullies, with threads by members insulting each other, accusing each other, berating each other, infuriating each other, and apologizing to each other ... even ending with a personal opinion and response by Chaim Ben Pesach stating that compassion should be shown to homosexuals.

And yet! ... With all the divisions this issue has revealed, "would-be holy men" are now all ready to fire up the animal sacrifices

Please explain the relationship between homosexuals and animal sacrifices.

Quote
and then get down to the business at hand; that of killing all homosexuals, adulterers, children who have cursed their parents, and anyone who might have lit a fire on Shabbos to keep warm!


HOWEVER! ... Not so quick when it comes to charging an actual suspect seen running from a house covered in blood, after dozens of witnesses heard horrendous screams coming from someone inside the place, and then after the "suspect" ran out, the neighborhood went inside to find a woman dead on the floor stabbed one hundred times, and a bloody knife lying next to her body!

NO NO!

Can't jump to conclusions when it comes to Torah Law!   

wtf?

Quote
According to Torah Law, the "suspect" can not be found guilty of murder and executed, unless he is apprehended with the actual murder weapon in his hand, and unless two eye witnesses to the actual murder will testify that they saw the suspect commit the murder. 

Hey, genius - These same strict rules are required for putting anyone to death, including a person who engages in homosexual filth.   He has to be caught in the act after being warned by two witnesses too.  There is no such thing as "putting a homosexual to death."     

And just because the murderer is not put to death except in very strict cases like you described, THAT DOES NOT MEAN THERE IS NO PUNISHMENT GIVEN IF THOSE CONDITIONS ARE NOT MET!   He can still be punished with jail.

Quote
The Jew living in Medinat Judea 2010 MUST OBEY HA'SHEM'S EVERY WORD exactly as written !

AND IF YOU DON'T! ... IF YOU DON'T! ...

THEN YOU MUST BE PUT TO DEATH AND THEN HUNG UP ON A TREE TO ROT IN THE SUN!


Yeah, cause that's sensible...

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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A real problem on this forum is certain people who want to "throw out the baby with the bathwater."   Let's call these people the would-be smart a.sses.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Btw, while we're on the subject, other than traitors, rodfim like child molesters will also be put to death.   The modern day halacha classifies the active pedophiles as rodfim.

Offline Meerkat

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Btw, while we're on the subject, other than traitors, rodfim like child molesters will also be put to death.   The modern day halacha classifies the active pedophiles as rodfim.

i don't think they should get the death penalty, but they should get a severe punishment, like 45 years of hard labor.

Offline Ari Ben-Canaan

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Btw, while we're on the subject, other than traitors, rodfim like child molesters will also be put to death.   The modern day halacha classifies the active pedophiles as rodfim.

Amen.
"You must keep the arab under your boot or he will be at your throat" -Unknown

"When we tell the Arab, ‘Come, I want to help you and see to your needs,’ he doesn’t look at us like gentlemen. He sees weakness and then the wolf shows what he can do.” - Maimonides

 “I am all peace, but when I speak, they are for war.” -Psalms 120:7

"The difference between a Jewish liberal and a Jewish conservative is that when a Jewish liberal walks out of the Holocaust Museum, he feels, "This shows why we need to have more tolerance and multiculturalism." The Jewish conservative feels, "We should have killed a lot more Nazis, and sooner."" - Philip Klein

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Btw, while we're on the subject, other than traitors, rodfim like child molesters will also be put to death.   The modern day halacha classifies the active pedophiles as rodfim.

i don't think they should get the death penalty, but they should get a severe punishment, like 45 years of hard labor.

I think that not only should they get the death penalty, we should consider resurrecting the old painful methods of execution just for them!   

And if not that, then AT LEAST life sentences with no chance of parole.  Because all the psychologists and psychiatrists agree that the pedophile is ALWAYS a repeat offender.   Letting one out of jail is setting lose a wild boar that is programmed to wreak havoc and destruction on humanity.