Yom Kipper War

[angryChineseKahanist]

I've never heard of him.

http://www.aolnews.com/world/article/documents-expose-israeli-icon-moshe-dayan-as-bumbler/19663131

[Zelhar]

Well what can I say, we were cursed with some really horrible leaders back then as we are now.

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

He begged the Arabs not to leave Jerusalem [on top of murdering Jews].  And this is the schmuck who turned the Temple Mount over to Waqf immediately during the 6 Day War.  What a disgusting buffoon [YS"V].

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

And this is the schmuck who turned the Temple Mount over to Waqf immediately during the 6 Day War.

Saying, "who needs this Vatican?".

[The proud Jew]

soon we will take power and be real leaders upon the jewish people and all of western civilization

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I read in an Israeli history book by Hayim ben-Sasson and other Hebrew U. professors called "A history of the Jewish people" that it was actually the religious parties who clamored for the previous defense minister's removal and for him to be replaced with Dayan shortly before the 67 war.  So it is quite ironic when I hear modern day haredi supporters of these same religious parties complain about what Dayan did and say how that reflects the evil of a secular Jewish state. (even if they obviously have a point with what they are saying - it's just ironic that the parties responsible for his promotion are the ones they still support despite this or in ignorance of this!).

[Secularbeliever]

But after the war, it became clear that Sadat, who actually wanted a peace deal with Israel, had despaired of ever retrieving the Sinai through diplomacy and decided he would have to fight a limited war first.<<

Only for enemies of the Jews do they get to go to war, lose the lives of over ten thousand people and we hear they were really peaceful.  Sadat was smart enough to take for free that which he could not obtain in war.  Only the so called Palestinians and Syrians are too stupid to do that.

[Secularbeliever]

I've never heard of him.

http://www.aolnews.com/world/article/documents-expose-israeli-icon-moshe-dayan-as-bumbler/19663131

I take it you are under the age of 50.  After the six day war Moshe Dayan was viewed as one of the greatest generals in history.  The eye patch made him very recognizable.  He was very universally known, beloved by Jews and hated by Israel's enemies.  After the six day war he was considered a bum, but Begin took him into the cabinet to gain respectablity and made him Foreign Minister.  Dayan was constantly dealing directly with the Americans without Begin's support and was a large part of the reason Begin got such a poor deal in the Sinai negotiations.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Dayan was also born in Eretz Yisrael to pioneer parents long before the State was created.

A "larger than life" character whose image represented a hitherto unknown and unseen JEW - one no longer wandering, one returned to his native soil as a modern agricultural pioneer, and one which fought to the death against overwhelming military strength and emerged victorious.

Golda Meir referred to him caustically as "that Damn Arab", because he knew the ways of the Arabs, spoke fluent Arabic, and was often a personal guest of various sheiks and others who respected him because he respected them and understood that they too wanted out from under Western colonial control.

Personally I resent it when so many people who never stepped foot in Israel until recently pass unbelievably harsh judgment on a true Jewish hero like Dayan.  Yes, he gave up control of the Kotel, but he also conquered it along with all the other territories in the Six Day War.

Long before that he had already sacrificed an eye to a sniper's bullet while on recon.

The world of British Mandate Eretz Yisrael in the 1940's was by no means the comfortable cushy modern State of Israel which allows adolescents with air conditioning and toilet paper to crucify those from a generation who gave their all so that a State of Israel could actually exist.

Dayan was a great man, flaws and all.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "So it is quite ironic when I hear modern day haredi supporters of these same religious parties complain about what Dayan did and say how that reflects the evil of a secular Jewish state. (even if they obviously have a point with what they are saying - it's just ironic that the parties responsible for his promotion are the ones they still support despite this or in ignorance of this!). "

It's easy to make 'snap' judgments based on today's understanding of "facts on the ground" and today's issues.

Unless one has a thorough understanding and familiarity with the issues and choices facing all the characters involved back in that day, then accusations and criticisms of Dayan and others back then are meaningless and amount to being a "backseat quarterback".

And whether modern criticism is justified or not, consider the fact that Jews aren't ever happy unless they're kvetching about everything.

Jews will even clamor for the appointment of a Moshe Dayan just so they will have a good reason to kvetch and complain about the appointment of Moshe Dayan!         

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Dayan was also born in Eretz Yisrael to pioneer parents long before the State was created.

A "larger than life" character whose image represented a hitherto unknown and unseen JEW - one no longer wandering, one returned to his native soil as a modern agricultural pioneer, and one which fought to the death against overwhelming military strength and emerged victorious.

Golda Meir referred to him caustically as "that Damn Arab", because he knew the ways of the Arabs, spoke fluent Arabic, and was often a personal guest of various sheiks and others who respected him because he respected them and understood that they too wanted out from under Western colonial control.

Personally I resent it when so many people who never stepped foot in Israel until recently pass unbelievably harsh judgment on a true Jewish hero like Dayan.  Yes, he gave up control of the Kotel, but he also conquered it along with all the other territories in the Six Day War.

Long before that he had already sacrificed an eye to a sniper's bullet while on recon.

The world of British Mandate Eretz Yisrael in the 1940's was by no means the comfortable cushy modern State of Israel which allows adolescents with air conditioning and toilet paper to crucify those from a generation who gave their all so that a State of Israel could actually exist.

Dayan was a great man, flaws and all.

It sounds like you are implying that just because Dayan was not a "ghetto Jew" - he was tough and a zionist fighter - that therefore he was a great man.    But the fact is that Dayan and his ilk were also a type of ghetto Jew.    Because would a great man inform on the Jewish underground to the British?   NO.   It is very hard to take the ghetto out of the Jew, and the residuals still resided with these "tough, fighting" zionists of the labor faction and Jewish agency.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hunting_Season

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "It sounds like you are implying that just because Dayan was not a "ghetto Jew" - he was tough and a zionist fighter - that therefore he was a great man.    But the fact is that Dayan and his ilk were also a type of ghetto Jew.    Because would a great man inform on the Jewish underground to the British?   NO.   It is very hard to take the ghetto out of the Jew, and the residuals still resided with these "tough, fighting" zionists of the labor faction and Jewish agency. "

You're right.

I give up.

Moshe Dayan was a skinny, 4 ft tall nebish exactly like Woody Allen, who was a disgraceful coward and Kahane-Was-Right BT would have killed him as sure as look at him, except that you wouldn't have been able to kill him because Dayan would have run like a scared little whiny ghetto Jew to his British task masters and started crying like a baby for them to protect him.

I understand now.

YOU are the great shining Jewish hero who fought in 1948 and 1967, and whose family literally drained swamps and fought off marauding Arab terrorists day and night when there was no State of Israel.

I should have realized exactly TO WHOM I was representing Dayan!     

Now I am so deeply ashamed to have said those sensible things about the worst villain since Adolph Hitler!

Thanks for educating me.

~ I pray day and night that I might can hopefully one day live up to YOUR standards of Zionist Heroism, Sterling Character, and Unbounding Courage~!     

And one day...one day soon let us pray ... a TIME TRAVEL MACHINE can be invented!  And we will use it for its TRUE PURPOSE -- to go back in time and let YOU show every Jew in all of Jewish History HOW IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE DONE!  THE RIGHT WAY!  YOUR WAY!   

Then, because you've gone back in time and altered all of history, suddenly all historic documents and records stored in all the archives and academies of the world will be miraculously changed to report things like how Moshe Dayan was exactly like KWR BT in every respect!       

How he single handedly united Eretz Yisrael from Nile to Euphrates, killed all ghetto Jews and filled Israel with the right kinds of Jew (those exactly like KWR BT) - captured the Kotel, cut the throat of the Waqf live on television, bulldozed the mosques, nuked the entire Mediterranean basin, and then gave the ultimatum alternative to Europeans - "ACCEPT NOAHIDE STATUS...OR DIE!"     

And I would love to continue and relate to you  the best part where Moshiach drives up in a blue and white limo and puts some bling around the neck of KWR BT (a kind of Holy Righteousness Medal or some such)...but I'll have to continue later because I must seek penitence for describing Dayan as a man of greatness, larger than life itself, possessing many human flaws.  How, oh how!....could my observations about Dayan been so unrealistic?       

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Wow, that was so constructive and mature of you.

[MassuhDGoodName]

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Your argument amounts to:   I can't accuse anyone of doing anything wrong or criticize anyone because I wasn't there.    Yeah, that's sensible.

Maybe your a Dayan family relative and the facts hurt?   If so, I don't know how I can change history for you.  But I won't ignore it.

[MassuhDGoodName]

          

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

          

A little childish, huh?   

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

The Nazis were tough, hardcore fighters too--does that mean we should respect them?

[Zelhar]

Re:  "So it is quite ironic when I hear modern day haredi supporters of these same religious parties complain about what Dayan did and say how that reflects the evil of a secular Jewish state. (even if they obviously have a point with what they are saying - it's just ironic that the parties responsible for his promotion are the ones they still support despite this or in ignorance of this!). "

It's easy to make 'snap' judgments based on today's understanding of "facts on the ground" and today's issues.

Unless one has a thorough understanding and familiarity with the issues and choices facing all the characters involved back in that day, then accusations and criticisms of Dayan and others back then are meaningless and amount to being a "backseat quarterback".

And whether modern criticism is justified or not, consider the fact that Jews aren't ever happy unless they're kvetching about everything.

Jews will even clamor for the appointment of a Moshe Dayan just so they will have a good reason to kvetch and complain about the appointment of Moshe Dayan!         

It would have been better if Dayan was gone with the rest of his eye back in the 40s when he was a hero. So he was a hero of the pre-independence days that's true. But as a defense minister he was incompetent. Lots of soldiers were killed because of his incompetence. But incompetence was not the worst of his deeds. He was an outright traitor. A few years after the war, He joined Begin's cabinet as foreign minister and led the negotiations to surrender the Sinai to muslim nazi Egypt. He had a MAJOR role in this, as he together with Ezer Weizman the defense minister would ceaselessly pressure the feeble Begin to cave in.

In Dayan I find an Israeli version of Marshal Philippe Pétain, although Rabin and Sharon are yet another such versions.

[MassuhDGoodName]

                                                       

[muman613]

                                                       

  

 

 

[Yaakov Mendel]

Re:  "It sounds like you are implying that just because Dayan was not a "ghetto Jew" - he was tough and a zionist fighter - that therefore he was a great man.    But the fact is that Dayan and his ilk were also a type of ghetto Jew.    Because would a great man inform on the Jewish underground to the British?   NO.   It is very hard to take the ghetto out of the Jew, and the residuals still resided with these "tough, fighting" zionists of the labor faction and Jewish agency. "

You're right.

I give up.

Moshe Dayan was a skinny, 4 ft tall nebish exactly like Woody Allen, who was a disgraceful coward and Kahane-Was-Right BT would have killed him as sure as look at him, except that you wouldn't have been able to kill him because Dayan would have run like a scared little whiny ghetto Jew to his British task masters and started crying like a baby for them to protect him.

I understand now.

YOU are the great shining Jewish hero who fought in 1948 and 1967, and whose family literally drained swamps and fought off marauding Arab terrorists day and night when there was no State of Israel.

I should have realized exactly TO WHOM I was representing Dayan!     

Now I am so deeply ashamed to have said those sensible things about the worst villain since Adolph Hitler!

Thanks for educating me.

~ I pray day and night that I might can hopefully one day live up to YOUR standards of Zionist Heroism, Sterling Character, and Unbounding Courage~!     

And one day...one day soon let us pray ... a TIME TRAVEL MACHINE can be invented!  And we will use it for its TRUE PURPOSE -- to go back in time and let YOU show every Jew in all of Jewish History HOW IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE DONE!  THE RIGHT WAY!  YOUR WAY!   

Then, because you've gone back in time and altered all of history, suddenly all historic documents and records stored in all the archives and academies of the world will be miraculously changed to report things like how Moshe Dayan was exactly like KWR BT in every respect!       

How he single handedly united Eretz Yisrael from Nile to Euphrates, killed all ghetto Jews and filled Israel with the right kinds of Jew (those exactly like KWR BT) - captured the Kotel, cut the throat of the Waqf live on television, bulldozed the mosques, nuked the entire Mediterranean basin, and then gave the ultimatum alternative to Europeans - "ACCEPT NOAHIDE STATUS...OR DIE!"     

And I would love to continue and relate to you  the best part where Moshiach drives up in a blue and white limo and puts some bling around the neck of KWR BT (a kind of Holy Righteousness Medal or some such)...but I'll have to continue later because I must seek penitence for describing Dayan as a man of greatness, larger than life itself, possessing many human flaws.  How, oh how!....could my observations about Dayan been so unrealistic?       

Why are you taking it out on KWR BT like that ? At best, it's very immature. If there is one person on this forum who you shouldn't make fun of like that, as if he was writing crap, I would say it's KWR BT. The regular quality and the consistency of his posts are outstanding.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "The regular quality and the consistency of his posts are outstanding. "

Truly outstanding.

I saw a schwartze outstanding in his field just this morning!

Perhaps one day I will be invited to join the 2010 JTF Mutual Admiration Society.

By the way ... What's the Hebrew word for .........?  Oh, never mind.

You'll have to excuse me now...I must go sign on to the forum now with a new password and ID.

Actually, I'm just kidding, but my best friend in the whole world is going to sign up and log on for the first time today.

He's a new member.

Please give him a warm JTF welcome.

You will enjoy reading his posts and threads.

They're consistent, quality, outstanding opinions,  and read almost like I wrote them!

Ain't cyberspace grand!     

[Yaakov Mendel]

Re:  "The regular quality and the consistency of his posts are outstanding. "

Truly outstanding.

I saw a schwartze outstanding in his field just this morning!

Perhaps one day I will be invited to join the 2010 JTF Mutual Admiration Society.

By the way ... What's the Hebrew word for .........?  Oh, never mind.

You'll have to excuse me now...I must go sign on to the forum now with a new password and ID.

Actually, I'm just kidding, but my best friend in the whole world is going to sign up and log on for the first time today.

He's a new member.

Please give him a warm JTF welcome.

You will enjoy reading his posts and threads.

They're consistent, quality, outstanding opinions,  and read almost like I wrote them!

Ain't cyberspace grand!     

I'm sorry I don't understand much of what you write. You have to put it in clearer terms for simple folks like me. Not everyone has such a brilliant sarcastic mind as yours.

[Dr. Dan]

Massuah the jtf clown. It's good that we have one of those to do the following: