An explanation and clarification

[Daniel]

There are apparently many of you who have misunderstood what I have been trying to express here. It was never my intention to suggest that religious Jews are Nazis. I was trying to explain the exact opposite. I explicitly stated that Judaism is NOT a Nazi religion. But for those of you who thought I was calling religious Jews or any of you Nazis, then I apologize. But the one thing I will never apologize for and will continue to stand strong on is my belief that homophobia is a Nazi mentality. It has absolutely nothing to do with Judaism or being religious. Homophobia is form of bigotry, hatred, intolerance, fascism, and ignorance and no amount of theological references can ever justify this type of mentality and behavior. Homphobia is the same form of bigotry and intolerance as antisemetism. But please don't misunderstand me. I do not accuse religious Jews of being Nazis and do not accuse any of you personally of being a Nazi. I merely state that homophobia is a Nazi philosophy. You can disagree with me and flame me on that matter if you'd like. But please understand that I am merely attacking the mentality and philosophy and not attacking any of you personally and definitely not attacking religious Jews. After all, most religious Jews that I know do not espouse homophobic viewpoints.

Dr. Dan, I am a decent person and believe that you are too. I apologize if I said anything to offend you and if I was wrong about you. You believe that I am mistaken in my ways and I believe that you are a decent person who is mistaken and deceived in your ways. But we'll just have to agree to disagree like decent and mature gentlemen. I do not have a mental disease. I was just angry about the wrong assumptions you were making on me and shifting the issue on me and placing me on trial instead of the bigoted mentality which is what I was trying to put on trial and what I think should really be put on trial here.

Aish Dina, you accuse me of being a fascist. If that's the case, then I am a fascist for opposing fascism. Then I must also be intolerant for not tolerating intolerance, I'm a bigot for opposing, bigotry, I'm close minded for not opening up my mind to close mindedness. I'm a hater for hating hatred. I guess I must also be a racist for objecting to racism. To accuse me of facism because I oppose homophobia is like calling someone a fascist because they oppose antisemetism. They're both forms of bigotry and hatred. But let me make it abundantly clear that even though I disagree with people who espouse homophobic beliefs, I will always defend your right to say whatever you want to say. After all, I wouldn't be a true liberal if I tried to stop the flow of free speech So say whatever it is you'd like to say. I may not agree with it. But I will defend your right to say it. Now what fascist would ever espouse something like that? But just remember at the same time, that I also have the freedom to disagree.

To all of you, I apologize for the acrimonious way that I have been expressing myself. This is an issue I feel strongly about. I personally do not care in the least whether or not someone is gay. But I am and have been a very strong homophobe-phobe and gay basher-basher for many years now. It's nothing personal against any of you. Whether or not you agree with me, to help you better understand, just think about the way you are all anti-antisemites. Although you don't see antisemetism and homophobia to be the same, please at least understand that I do see them as being the same and that is where I am coming from with my mentality and attitudes.

Tonight at Manhattan Jewish Experience (which is an orthodox organization), the rabbi made a point that even though people might differ significantly on issues, that it doesn't mean that we should view ourselves as enemies. We can have significant disagreements on philosophical, theological, and moral matters without considering ourselves as being enemies.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

But the one thing I will never apologize for and will continue to stand strong on is my belief that homophobia is a Nazi mentality.

In that case, please explain how you define the term homophobia and how you are using it.

Homphobia is the same form of bigotry and intolerance as antisemetism.

?   Again, please explain this point.

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

But the one thing I will never apologize for and will continue to stand strong on is my belief that homophobia is a Nazi mentality.

In that case, please explain how you define the term homophobia and how you are using it.

+1

Generally, the term homophobia is used inaccurately; no one is scared of or fears homosexuals.

[Yaakov Mendel]

Daniel,

You did the right thing to apologize to the religious Jews on the forum. The one thing that personally shocked me most in your comments yesterday was to call them Nazis because they explained to you that there is no way that the Torah condones homosexual behavior. Reading your post, I believe you sincerely repent for that and that is a good thing.

A vast majority of JTFers, including me, resent homosexual behavior. One major reason is that this is a predominantly religious forum, but there are also strong non-religious reasons to resent homosexual behavior, in particular because it severely undermines the family structure which we all agree here to be an essential pillar of society.
However, I don't think any of us would advocate the use of violence against homosexuals, at least I certainly don't. I gather there are two categories of people in this forum :
1) Those who want to eliminate homosexuality - but with a compassionate approach, trying to help homosexuals overcome their issues and understanding that it is difficult for them.
2) Those, more "liberal", who tolerate homosexuality as long as it is kept private.
The one thing that, I believe, everyone resents here, including the more liberal ones, is the public promotion of homosexuality.
It must be very hard to have homosexual inclination and care for Judaism (or Christianity for that matter) at the same time, because I understand that this is not something you can get easily get rid of by an act of will : I guess that when you feel a spontaneous physical attraction to men, you can't suddenly reverse that and declare : "From now on, I'll feel attracted by women !".

About your voting for Obama, let's see things positively : I gather that you are a former left-winger and, at some point, you realized you were wrong and you joined JTF. Well, you're probably not the only one here ! As far as I'm concerned, I never was a leftist but I now realize I was once pretty dumb on some issues. What matters is whether you really have changed. Have you ?

[Dr. Dan]

Yaacov well written post my exact sentiments. I'm one of those people who attack the behavior and even more so attack the tolerance and promotion of the behavior. We are supposed to. I am against bullying a homosexual. I'm against humiliating one. It's one thing to protest a gay pride parade and another to pick on a person who leaves everybody else alone. There are appropriate ways to approach a single human being.

I have a problem with people who call you Nazi or homophobic when you express reasonable opinions such as the ones stated. most reasonable people on this forum including chaim for the most part agree with this point of view.   those who jump off the handle and assume we are homophobic have to realize that they are doing a fascist thing.  religious people have a right to speak out their mind on the issue without being tabled nazi.

Daniel i accept your attempt to apologize as an apology. however we aren't finished yet. you have responded to my posts and several other people on the forum with false accusations of Nazi homophobia. It's a passionate subject for you but take the time to have an honest debate before you fly off the handle again.

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

re: Fascism.

Daniel, can you provide a definition for this [personally I do not need one]?

Hint:  It's a Leftist/Marxist philosophy.

[cjd]

Talk about beating a dead horse...Get out the resuscitator if it  revives everyone can have another go at it. 

[Daniel]

But the one thing I will never apologize for and will continue to stand strong on is my belief that homophobia is a Nazi mentality.

In that case, please explain how you define the term homophobia and how you are using it.

+1

Generally, the term homophobia is used inaccurately; no one is scared of or fears homosexuals.

This is a common tactic that is used by homophobes, to play semantic word games with the word. I'm reminded of many years ago when a few of my friends were debating our former friend. At one point, he actually stated, "You call me a homophobe. But I'm not a homophobe, because phobia means fear, and I'm not scared of them, cause I'll kick their ass!" And he was being dead serious.

If we're going to have an intellectually honest discussion about this, then let's not play any semantic word games. homophbia refers to the mentality of being anti-gay, whether it stems from religious belief, insecurity of one's own sexuality, or just a hatred or intolerance of those who are different from themselves.

Also, to say that no one is afraid of homosexuals is not accurate. There are plenty of people who are scared or feel uncomfortable around homosexuals. I think what  more accurate thing to state is that many people are insecure and uncertain about their own sexuality and are scared of the sexuality within themselves. This is what causes many people to engage in homophobic behavior. It's their way of fighting against themselves and projecting this onto others. This is what many psychologists and mental health professionals believe. It's not just me. So if you think I'm suffering from a mental disease for stating this, then you also need to believe that the mental health professions are suffering from mental diseases.

[Daniel]

Daniel,

You did the right thing to apologize to the religious Jews on the forum. The one thing that personally shocked me most in your comments yesterday was to call them Nazis because they explained to you that there is no way that the Torah condones homosexual behavior. Reading your post, I believe you sincerely repent for that and that is a good thing.

A vast majority of JTFers, including me, resent homosexual behavior. One major reason is that this is a predominantly religious forum, but there are also strong non-religious reasons to resent homosexual behavior, in particular because it severely undermines the family structure which we all agree here to be an essential pillar of society.
However, I don't think any of us would advocate the use of violence against homosexuals, at least I certainly don't. I gather there are two categories of people in this forum :
1) Those who want to eliminate homosexuality - but with a compassionate approach, trying to help homosexuals overcome their issues and understanding that it is difficult for them.
2) Those, more "liberal", who tolerate homosexuality as long as it is kept private.

I agree with this statement for the most part. However, there are some, al biet very few, who it seems do get pleasure at seeing news of violence against gays and think that that's a good thing, even though nobody on this forum actually engages in anti-gay violence.

The one thing that, I believe, everyone resents here, including the more liberal ones, is the public promotion of homosexuality.

Again, I have never publicly promoted homosexuality. I have only publicly condemned homophobia. There is a very big difference between the two.

It must be very hard to have homosexual inclination and care for Judaism (or Christianity for that matter) at the same time, because I understand that this is not something you can get easily get rid of by an act of will : I guess that when you feel a spontaneous physical attraction to men, you can't suddenly reverse that and declare : "From now on, I'll feel attracted by women !".

I fully agree with this. Attraction is not a choice. Why in the world would anyone "choose" to be attracted to people of the same gender where that leads to mocking, persecution, humiliation, attacks and alienation by so city? Do we honestly think that they're doing this just to be rebellious? I certainly never met any gays that are like this.

About your voting for Obama, let's see things positively : I gather that you are a former left-winger and, at some point, you realized you were wrong and you joined JTF. Well, you're probably not the only one here ! As far as I'm concerned, I never was a leftist but I now realize I was once pretty dumb on some issues. What matters is whether you really have changed. Have you ?

That's not quite right. I am still a left winger. I am merely a former peacenick. I used to believe strongly in the peace process. But don't anymore, not because I believe it's a "hillul hashem", but because on purely pragmatic reasons, the peace process has only served to increase the violence and bloodshed on both sides. I now state, "What's the point in having a peace process if it's not going to lead to a peace result?" However, if I ever do see the possibility of a peace process leading to real peace, I will switch my viewpoints back. I wish and hope that can happen. Yet at the same time, I'm being realistic and realize that this will probably never happen. The only way to insure peace right now is through oppressive strength. It's unfortunate, but true. So on the issue of Israel alone, you could say that I have moved more to the right over time.

However, on just about all other issues, I still take on a more liberal and left wing stance and do so unapologetically and have no plans on ever changing this.

As far as Obama goes, I'm still waiting for him to make a Helen Thomas-type remark but still have not heard these types of words come out of his mouth. He seems to be stating the same exact rhetoric as all previous presidents that Israel's security is sacrosanct, yet we also need to move towards striving to create a palestinian state. It's the same exact rhetoric that all prior previous presidents have used. So I really don't see any differences between Obama and Clinton. In fact, so far, it seems like Obama has been less involved in Israel than Clinton, and even less involved compared to Carter. So while Obama might not be good for Israel, I certainly don't see him as being the very worst president for Israel. Even Bush was worse since he was the one that caused Hamas to gain power by insisting on "free elections" which was the worst possible thing he could have done. Perhaps I'm being blind an naive for thinking this and you certainly have the right to think and express this.

[Lisa]

Daniel, thank you for your apology.  

I don't think anyone here condones harassing, bullying or harming homosexuals.  They just oppose the sex between two men, and the promotion of it.  Now whether or not homosexuality is inborn or not is an area in which we'll have to agree to disagree.  

Anyway, I'll leave this thread open a little longer so people can share their last thoughts on this topic, then it's getting locked.  

[Daniel]

Dr. Dan, with all due respect, I don't think that I flew off the handle anymore than how most people engage in everyday dialogue on this forum. This forum constantly espouses and engages in the most disgusting and outrageous racial epithets which is something that I consider way beyond the pale of any type of handle to fly off. Yet, NOBODY ever gets reprimanded or accused of "flying off the handle" with these types of expressions. I find that to be extremely hypocritical that all other types of the most vicious ad hominem attacks are constantly tolerated on this forum, yet when I voice my grievances on homophobia, I'm being accused of "flying off the handle." So we're basically saying that on a religious forum, if someone attacks homophobia, they are engaging in fascism. But the constant stream of the most disgusting vile racism that takes place on this forum is not considered to be fascist in the least and is something that is completely tolerated and acceptable. Yet I would once again be labeled a fascist if I labeled this type of racism to be Nazi-like. Something just doesn't seem right about that, to say the very least!

Also, I want to make it clear to you that when I was saying to you that you might be gay or you might know someone who is gay and how you shouldn't beat them up if you do, I was being completely sarcastic and facetious for the purpose of illustrating the lunacy of those remarks that you were stating to me about how I might be gay and how if I am, I shouldn't engage in any gay behavior. I don't think that you picked up on my sarcasm there. You must have thought I was being serious, and that's therefore why you concluded that I must have a mental disease. But please note that I was being sarcastic and facetious. However, you were the one who was being serious with your remarks, remarks which were completely incorrect and irrational. I was merely trying to respond with sarcasm to demonstrate this. I hope you understand this.

Yaacov well written post my exact sentiments. I'm one of those people who attack the behavior and even more so attack the tolerance and promotion of the behavior. We are supposed to. I am against bullying a homosexual. I'm against humiliating one. It's one thing to protest a gay pride parade and another to pick on a person who leaves everybody else alone. There are appropriate ways to approach a single human being.

I have a problem with people who call you Nazi or homophobic when you express reasonable opinions such as the ones stated. most reasonable people on this forum including chaim for the most part agree with this point of view.   those who jump off the handle and assume we are homophobic have to realize that they are doing a fascist thing.  religious people have a right to speak out their mind on the issue without being tabled nazi.

Daniel i accept your attempt to apologize as an apology. however we aren't finished yet. you have responded to my posts and several other people on the forum with false accusations of Nazi homophobia. It's a passionate subject for you but take the time to have an honest debate before you fly off the handle again.

[Lisa]

Daniel, can I just ask what drew you to JTF initially?  Aside from being against the "peace" process, what other aspects of JTF do you agree with? 

[Yaakov Mendel]

As far as Obama goes, I'm still waiting for him to make a Helen Thomas-type remark but still have not heard these types of words come out of his mouth. He seems to be stating the same exact rhetoric as all previous presidents

Actions are more telling than words. It's what you do that matters, especially what you do behind the scenes, not what you say in front of cameras. Obama is not stupid, he knows he can't make an overtly antisemitic statement in his position.
But what is he doing ? He is pressuring Israel to accept the creation of a "Palestinian" state, he is trying to forbid Jews to build in Yosh and to have them expelled, and he does everything he can to refrain Israel from striking Iran's nuclear program.
Isn't that enough for you ? He would probably want to do even more and faster, but, fortunately : 1) the American political system has checks and balances and the power of the President is bounded, 2) the majority of the American people still supports Israel, at least supports Israel more than Obama, so he knows he has to be cautious. But he is still doing a lot of harm !

[Yaakov Mendel]

By the way, since you compared Obama's stance with those of Bush and Clinton, I also strongly resented both their positions on Israel, especially Clinton, what a nauseating pig... Bush was very bad but somehow less intrusive.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Daniel, can I just ask what drew you to JTF initially?  Aside from being against the "peace" process, what other aspects of JTF do you agree with? 

Great question Lisa. I didn't follow the whole flamewar here but I am curious as to why a proud Obama voter even posts at JTF at all.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Talk about beating a dead horse...Get out the resuscitator if it  revives everyone can have another go at it. 

You mean Rodell Verreen? 

[Lisa]

Who is Roddell Verreen? 

[AsheDina]

Daniel:
But the one thing I will never apologize for and will continue to stand strong on is my belief that homophobia is a Nazi mentality.

So, now you are calling G-d a NAZI?

Leviticus 18:
כב  וְאֶת-זָכָר--לֹא תִשְׁכַּב, מִשְׁכְּבֵי אִשָּׁה:  תּוֹעֵבָה, הִוא.  22

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination. 

You cant have your cake and eat it too.  I am sure that G-d loves people, but the actions will send them to hell.  You need to tell the truth more, and stop being a wuss.

[AsheDina]

I DO agree that it is the right thing to do to not be fascistic in your adoption of the gays, by expecting us to do so as well.  But you cant go around calling G-d a NAZI for making up the rules.

I have helped MANY 'gay' people, Daniel. I can tell you this much; They departed their abominations, 2 of them, one has a beautiful son and the other is married and has been living with AIDS for over 15 years.  He also has a son, both of these people are Christians, which was not MY doing, but I can tell you that them making a turn to G-d and seeing that ONE scripture for what it is SAVED THEIR LIVES. I helped them through some terrible agonizing times, and we all need to do this when in the path of a 'gay' that is miserable, because most of them ARE miserable people.  That is a FACT.

To save one life, is to save the world entire.

They, both are now invloved in Churches and synagogues telling the TRUTH and saving lives from the hell on earth that is homosexuality.

Thanks for apologizing to these people, they are NOT Nazis and neither is G-d.  "Homo-phobic" is a MADE UP word by Bolsheviks, Daniel, please work on this brainwashing that you have been indoctrinated with. I was also a little brainwashed, so I know..

[Zelhar]

I think it is shameful to equate Homophobia to Antisemitism in both historical context and objective definition. It is incorrect in every possible way. Persecution of Jews cannot be equated to persecution of homosexuals (if there ever was in fact mass persecution of gays). Also, homosexual people do not truly form a community, or any form of cohesive social group, just as left handers, or people with pierced eyebrow, are not a community. Lastly, homophobia is directed at the way homosexuals behave and present themselves, and although it is not justified, a homosexual have a choice of not acting out as gays in places that don't tolerate such behavior. Whereas antisemites simply hate Jews because there are Jews, independently of the way Jews as individuals or as groups behave and present themselves.

[Dr. Dan]

But the one thing I will never apologize for and will continue to stand strong on is my belief that homophobia is a Nazi mentality.

In that case, please explain how you define the term homophobia and how you are using it.

+1

Generally, the term homophobia is used inaccurately; no one is scared of or fears homosexuals.

This is a common tactic that is used by homophobes, to play semantic word games with the word. I'm reminded of many years ago when a few of my friends were debating our former friend. At one point, he actually stated, "You call me a homophobe. But I'm not a homophobe, because phobia means fear, and I'm not scared of them, cause I'll kick their donkey!" And he was being dead serious.

If we're going to have an intellectually honest discussion about this, then let's not play any semantic word games. homophbia refers to the mentality of being anti-gay, whether it stems from religious belief, insecurity of one's own sexuality, or just a hatred or intolerance of those who are different from themselves.

Also, to say that no one is afraid of homosexuals is not accurate. There are plenty of people who are scared or feel uncomfortable around homosexuals. I think what  more accurate thing to state is that many people are insecure and uncertain about their own sexuality and are scared of the sexuality within themselves. This is what causes many people to engage in homophobic behavior. It's their way of fighting against themselves and projecting this onto others. This is what many psychologists and mental health professionals believe. It's not just me. So if you think I'm suffering from a mental disease for stating this, then you also need to believe that the mental health professions are suffering from mental diseases.

First off homophobic means discomfort being around the same sex...so let's say you go to a public shower and you feel uncomfortable being around other naked men, that would make you homophobic.  One who fears or is uncomfortable around homosexuals are homosexualphobic.  In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with either irregardless of what the undermining reason is.

For many heterosexual men, they feel uncomfortable being around homosexuals.  It doesn't always mean they hate homosexuals or want to beat them up.  It's a normal feeling for some men.  It doesn't make them a racist or anything terrible.  Of course there is nothing to be afraid of.  In Western culture, it's not common for men to kiss each other on the cheek out of friendship.  To each their own.

Secondly, there is no game here, Daniel.  We wanted to know what you meant by anti-gay.  Is not hating a homosexual person but hating homosexuality anti gay to you?  I mean, all out beating up a gay guy because he's gay is anti-gay and down right a terrible thing to do.  Bullying someone who is gay, is anti-gay and not a nice thing to do.  Protesting a gay pride parade without violence because one is against the sanctioning and acceptance of homosexual sex as an ok alternative style is not anti-gay.  Being against gay marriage is not anti-gay...we need you to define what to you is anti-gay so we can proceed with a discussion.

[Dr. Dan]

I felt you were flying off the handle when you were accusing KWRBT and Muman of homophobia when they weren't.  It also seemed that you were not channeling the proper retort on their questions.  I had to step in out of frustration.

As far as certain other members who feel like throwing out epithets here or there whenever there is an honest discussion going on, yes, they are flying off the handle and that's why the previous thread we were in was locked.

Nevertheless, again, I appreciate the apology, we can move forward and talk more about this and see where it goes.  On this subject I think we will find a middle ground somewhere..or simply agree to disagree.

Dr. Dan, with all due respect, I don't think that I flew off the handle anymore than thow most people engage in everyday dialogue on this forum. This forum constantly espouses and engages in the most disgusting and outrageous racial epithets which is something that I consider way beyond the pale of any type of handle to fly off. Yet, NOBODY ever gets reprimanded or accused of "flying off the handle" with these types of expressions. I find that to be extremely hypocritical that all other types of the most vicious ad hominem attacks are constantly tolerated on this forum, yet when I voice my grievances on homophobia, I'm being accused of "flying off the handle." So we're basically saying that on a religious forum, if someone attacks homophobia, they are engaging in fascism. But the constant stream of the most disgusting vile racism that takes place on this forum is not considered to be fascist in the least and is something that is completely tolerated and acceptable. Yet I would once again be labeled a fascist if I labeled this type of racism to be Nazi-like. Something just doesn't seem right about that, to say the very least!

Also, I want to make it clear to you that when I was saying to you that you might be gay or you might know someone who is gay and how you shouldn't beat them up if you do, I was being completely sarcastic and facetious for the purpose of illustrating the lunacy of those remarks that you were stating to me about how I might be gay and how if I am, I shouldn't engage in any gay behavior. I don't think that you picked up on my sarcasm there. You must have thought I was being serious, and that's therefore why you concluded that I must have a mental disease. But please note that I was being sarcastic and facetious. However, you were the one who was being serious with your remarks, remarks which were completely incorrect and irrational. I was merely trying to respond with sarcasm to demonstrate this. I hope you understand this.

Yaacov well written post my exact sentiments. I'm one of those people who attack the behavior and even more so attack the tolerance and promotion of the behavior. We are supposed to. I am against bullying a homosexual. I'm against humiliating one. It's one thing to protest a gay pride parade and another to pick on a person who leaves everybody else alone. There are appropriate ways to approach a single human being.

I have a problem with people who call you Nazi or homophobic when you express reasonable opinions such as the ones stated. most reasonable people on this forum including chaim for the most part agree with this point of view.   those who jump off the handle and assume we are homophobic have to realize that they are doing a fascist thing.  religious people have a right to speak out their mind on the issue without being tabled nazi.

Daniel i accept your attempt to apologize as an apology. however we aren't finished yet. you have responded to my posts and several other people on the forum with false accusations of Nazi homophobia. It's a passionate subject for you but take the time to have an honest debate before you fly off the handle again.

[Daniel]

Daniel, can I just ask what drew you to JTF initially?  Aside from being against the "peace" process, what other aspects of JTF do you agree with? 

What drew me to JTF initially was finding Chaim's show on Public Access TV long before I ever agreed with him on anything. I watched him since I found him to be extremely amusing and entertaining. To this day, I am really intrigued by him since he is the only person who cracks me up and scares the living crap outa me at the same time. I like listening to his show and enjoy hearing my questions read on the show and being answered. I don't know of anywhere else online where this type of show, where our questions are read out loud and responded to, takes place anywhere else online.

That's a short answer for the time being. A little later, when I have more time, I'm gonna come completely clean about who I really am and what makes me tick. I'll reveal things about myself that I have not revealed yet and will reveal everything about what has motivated to be involved with JTF. I will do this later when I have more time.

[Dr. Dan]

looking forward to it and debating someone with a mainstream opposing view.

Daniel, can I just ask what drew you to JTF initially?  Aside from being against the "peace" process, what other aspects of JTF do you agree with? 

What drew me to JTF initially was finding Chaim's show on Public Access TV long before I ever agreed with him on anything. I watched him since I found him to be extremely amusing and entertaining. To this day, I am really intrigued by him since he is the only person who cracks me up and scares the living crap outa me at the same time. I like listening to his show and enjoy hearing my questions read on the show and being answered. I don't know of anywhere else online where this type of show, where our questions are read out loud and responded to, takes place anywhere else online.

That's a short answer for the time being. A little later, when I have more time, I'm gonna come completely clean about who I really am and what makes me tick. I'll reveal things about myself that I have not revealed yet and will reveal everything about what has motivated to be involved with JTF. I will do this later when I have more time.

[Lisa]

OK people, since Daniel has apologized, and many of us have had our say here, I'm locking this thread.