Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Rav Samson Raphael Hirsh in 1873 - Evolution does not contradict Torah
cjd:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on October 17, 2010, 06:46:23 PM ---Muman, I notice you've dealt with some softballs but you fail to grapple with the key questions Massuh presented originally.
The fact is, evolution, as a scientific theory, does not contradict a belief in G-d or adherence to Torah Judaism. Some people here are unwilling to face that fact and continue to promote their weak propaganda instead. This is truly a shame. The whole point of this thread was to present that basic point with some evidence backing it up - the statement of the great Rav Samson Raphael Hirsh. But some people here seem to think they know better than Rav Hirsh and all Torah scholars combined when it comes to this one solitary issue of evolution even though they lack an expertise in Torah and ALSO lack an expertise in evolution or the sciences behind it. This is incredibly ironic.
--- End quote ---
I'm with you.... I can't believe some of the reasons given for ignoring evolution... I feel like I am watching a poor reenactment of the Scopes Monkey Trials. :::D
muman613:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on October 17, 2010, 06:46:23 PM ---Muman, I notice you've dealt with some softballs but you fail to grapple with the key questions Massuh presented originally.
The fact is, evolution, as a scientific theory, does not contradict a belief in G-d or adherence to Torah Judaism. Some people here are unwilling to face that fact and continue to promote their weak propaganda instead. This is truly a shame. The whole point of this thread was to present that basic point with some evidence backing it up - the statement of the great Rav Samson Raphael Hirsh. But some people here seem to think they know better than Rav Hirsh and all Torah scholars combined when it comes to this one solitary issue of evolution even though they lack an expertise in Torah and ALSO lack an expertise in evolution or the sciences behind it. This is incredibly ironic.
--- End quote ---
As I said before. I have my reservations even after looking at the so-called evidence. I have pointed out that there are scientific reasons to question carbon-dating and I can provide links to these.
I do not believe that there is any contradiction between Science and Torah. Science is simply the attempt of man to try to understand the forces by which this world operate. Science has been extremely beneficial in many areas, but it has failed miserably in many other areas.
Science is truly a double-edged sword. When people put more faith in science and the priests of science calling themselves scientists they are lead further and further from the answers to lifes many questions.
Science asks those who believe in it to only believe that which can be proven by rational means, either by experiments or by mathematical equations. Hashem is not a mathematical equation, nor is he able to be experimented on... There will never be a science which can explain Hashem as science is in itself a creation of Hashem, and the evidence of Hashem is meant to be hidden.
I am tired of arguing this point. I am afraid that what has been discussed has already turned people away from believing in Hashem. Do you think that the Jews stood at the banks of the sea of Reeds could reliably expect the odds of the sea splitting? I don't think so... It came down to faith in Hashem when the odds were exactly against the event happening. This is why it is a miracle even though scientists are trying to determine a scientific reason for this...
MassuhDGoodName:
muman613: "I am afraid that what has been discussed has already turned people away from believing in Hashem. "
Precisely the opposite is true.
Everyone here believes.
Unless people are able to question their own beliefs, how can they possibly really be faithful?
It's easy for tiny isolated little "ghettos" of Lubavitchers in NY and in Jerusalem and their fellow Orthodox to raise their children knowing one thing and one thing only, being told from birth "Do not dare to ever question what we believe!".
Otherwise known as brainwashing.
If you're unable to access any other information, then you're not confronted with opposing viewpoints and facts which might challenge that which you accepted on face value.
It is my firm belief that the opinions of the Sages are based on their thorough analysis and examination of Torah to the extent that their experiences and educations allowed them to do within the limitations placed on them by the available body of knowledge known at the time in which they lived.
They lacked a great deal of knowledge about the world and everything in it which we today take for granted.
Does that negate the truths of their studies?
No.
What negates Torah is when someone holds the opinion that any and all information unwritten in either Talmud or Torah is a lie and is to be rejected.
Someone that narrow and closed minded is representing the Inifinite Omniscient One Creator G-d of Israel as closed, finite, finished two thousand years ago, nothing more able to be learned or to even exist.
Yet each and all who cling to this viewpoint live lives totally dependent on everything they renounce as a lie and a denial of Torah!
They wear eyeglasses, own shoes and clothing manufactured from synthetic materials overseas in China which is then shipped to the States either on jets or on ships, use a home computer which relies on the the sciences of fiber optics and digital technology and has more computational power, speed, and precision than any one human brain, and they go regularly to see a Jewish physician using knowledge and instruments which his own ancestors decried and banned as "the desecration of Torah and the denial of G-d's existence!"
They'll even have "pacemakers" installed in their chest cavities!
If Ha'Shem hadn't already created each and every one of these miraculous sciences and properties at the very moment the Universe was Created, man wouldn't have been able to discover that they were always here from the very beginning waiting for him to use his brain as it was intended by his Creator.
Everything which "seemingly" (not really) contradicts Torah was put here by G-d at the moment of Creation, so denying any "scientific studies and facts" because they're not in Torah or Talmud is in essence putting MANKIND ahead of a Supreme Being!
For if these things were not from the beginning available for man to slowly discover and learn, then man himself invented each and every one and created the sciences and skills all by himself.
So, I don't have to decide which it is that I believe.
I long ago accepted the fact that a day as stated in time by the Sages still doesn't say a single thing about how long G-d Himself defines it as He sees fit and whenever He feels like it!
wonga66:
When non-Torah believers themselves start doubting the theory of Evolution, then you've got to buck up:
"Evolutionism is a fairy tale for grown-ups. This theory has helped nothing in the progress of science. It is useless" (Professor Louis Bounoure, Director of Research, French National Centre of Scientific Research),
One thing evilutionists really hate is actually discussing the scientific evidences for evilution. In public debates between creationists and evilutionists, the former always win hands down, with the latter always forced to resort to ad hominems and name calling - the classic debating tactic and sure sign of those with a weak/non-existent case!
Notice how how not one scientific evidence has been brought by the OP to support evilution, merely confirming that:
"Scientists who go about teaching that evolution is a fact of life are great con-men, and the story they are telling is the greatest hoax ever. They do not have one iota of fact" (Dr.T.N.Tahmisian, Atomic Energy Commission, USA).
muman613:
--- Quote from: MassuhDGoodName on October 17, 2010, 09:39:57 PM ---muman613: "I am afraid that what has been discussed has already turned people away from believing in Hashem. "
Precisely the opposite is true.
Everyone here believes.
Unless people are able to question their own beliefs, how can they possibly really be faithful?
It's easy for tiny isolated little "ghettos" of Lubavitchers in NY and in Jerusalem and their fellow Orthodox to raise their children knowing one thing and one thing only, being told from birth "Do not dare to ever question what we believe!".
Otherwise known as brainwashing.
If you're unable to access any other information, then you're not confronted with opposing viewpoints and facts which might challenge that which you accepted on face value.
It is my firm belief that the opinions of the Sages are based on their thorough analysis and examination of Torah to the extent that their experiences and educations allowed them to do within the limitations placed on them by the available body of knowledge known at the time in which they lived.
They lacked a great deal of knowledge about the world and everything in it which we today take for granted.
Does that negate the truths of their studies?
No.
What negates Torah is when someone holds the opinion that any and all information unwritten in either Talmud or Torah is a lie and is to be rejected.
Someone that narrow and closed minded is representing the Inifinite Omniscient One Creator G-d of Israel as closed, finite, finished two thousand years ago, nothing more able to be learned or to even exist.
Yet each and all who cling to this viewpoint live lives totally dependent on everything they renounce as a lie and a denial of Torah!
They wear eyeglasses, own shoes and clothing manufactured from synthetic materials overseas in China which is then shipped to the States either on jets or on ships, use a home computer which relies on the the sciences of fiber optics and digital technology and has more computational power, speed, and precision than any one human brain, and they go regularly to see a Jewish physician using knowledge and instruments which his own ancestors decried and banned as "the desecration of Torah and the denial of G-d's existence!"
They'll even have "pacemakers" installed in their chest cavities!
If Ha'Shem hadn't already created each and every one of these miraculous sciences and properties at the very moment the Universe was Created, man wouldn't have been able to discover that they were always here from the very beginning waiting for him to use his brain as it was intended by his Creator.
Everything which "seemingly" (not really) contradicts Torah was put here by G-d at the moment of Creation, so denying any "scientific studies and facts" because they're not in Torah or Talmud is in essence putting MANKIND ahead of a Supreme Being!
For if these things were not from the beginning available for man to slowly discover and learn, then man himself invented each and every one and created the sciences and skills all by himself.
So, I don't have to decide which it is that I believe.
I long ago accepted the fact that a day as stated in time by the Sages still doesn't say a single thing about how long G-d Himself defines it as He sees fit and whenever He feels like it!
--- End quote ---
Massuh,
I never suggested that a Jew doesn't have to learn about the sciences. As I stated about myself, I was quite good at the sciences when I attended school. I was in advanced math and science classes throughout high school.
Also a Jew is required to ask questions, as I stated in this thread earlier about gehinnom.
The issue to me is that a scientist should be a Jew first and a scientist second. That Hashem should always be the key to understanding all of physical and spiritual reality.
In the field of computer science I see Hashems hand in my work daily. Even though it is a science there is still an aspect of art required to develop software. Sometimes all the parts just seem to come together just in time for Shabbat...
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