Rav Samson Raphael Hirsh in 1873 - Evolution does not contradict Torah

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Rav Samson Raphael Hirsh wrote this in 1873, which is only 14 years after Darwin published "Origin of Species" - so needless to say, the theory of evolution was still in a very primitive format and not yet backed up with mountains of evidence as it is today.  It was much more speculative and unknown as a hypothesis at that time.  For this reason he refers to it as "a vague hypothesis still unsupported by fact."    But, importantly, he also says the following:

    "Even if this notion were ever to gain complete acceptance by the scientific world, Jewish thought, unlike the reasoning of the high priest of that nation, would nonetheless never summon us to revere a still extant representative of this primal form as the supposed ancestor of us all.  Rather, Judaism in that case would call upon its adherents to give even greater reverence than ever before to the one, sole G-d Who, in His boundless creative wisdom and eternal omnipotence, needed to bring into existence no more than one single, amorphous nucleus, and one single law of “adaptation and heredity” in order to bring forth, from what seemed chaos but was in fact a very definite order, the infinite variety of species we know today, each with its unique characteristics that sets it apart from all other creatures." (“The Educational Value of Judaism,” Collected Writings, vol. VII, p. 264)


The "high priest" refers to a fervent and vocal darwinist, and by "representative of primal form" he refers to an ape.   It seems this was a particular jab at well known comments, but I don't know who it's about.  I've read it might be referring to Thomas Huxley.   My guess is that Huxley, or whoever it was, suggested that religious people should worship the ape because that preceded the human (rather than G-d who preceded the world according to our actual beliefs - a pretty lame insult).   The way Rav Hirsh responds is quite ironic and humorous in light of the modern-day phenomenon whereby the American liberals really do worship that extant representative of primal form...

I have added bold emphasis to very important parts of Rav Hirsh's comment.

[wonga66]

 "If you are still troubled by the theory of evolution, I can tell you without fear of contradiction that it has not a shred of evidence to support it."
(Lubavitcher Rebbe).

"Looking at this theory of Darwinian evolution as an attempt at a scientific formulation, it is very unconvincing, to say the least. Despite the beautiful and convincing descriptions in popular science books and high school texts, with their persuasive pictures, not only is the theory of evolution totally unproven, it is practically disproven." (Professor Leo Levi)

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

"If you are still troubled by the theory of evolution, I can tell you without fear of contradiction that it has not a shred of evidence to support it."
(Lubavitcher Rebbe).

"Looking at this theory of Darwinian evolution as an attempt at a scientific formulation, it is very unconvincing, to say the least. Despite the beautiful and convincing descriptions in popular science books and high school texts, with their persuasive pictures, not only is the theory of evolution totally unproven, it is practically disproven." (Professor Leo Levi)

Quotes like that are irrelevant given what I quoted above. 

And I strongly disagree with the assessments of these supposed science experts you are citing.  Science is not decided with soundbites and witty quotes.   It's not "waved off" by non-experts who simply don't like it for religious reasons.

The point of my post was that according to Rabbi Hirsh, there need not be theological opposition to the theory.  So on what grounds do you base your own opposition?   Fear?   Something else?   I'm curious.   I suspect it's because your rebbe(s) always railed against science and that Torah Jews should stay away, and you cannot except facing the reality that it's not a danger or treife like it was portrayed, but that it's simply a discipline that has uncovered a lot of useful information.

[wonga66]

Let's talk facts on the ground.

Give me your 10 top evidences for the truth of Evolution.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Let's talk facts on the ground.

Give me your 10 top evidences for the truth of Evolution.

Why don't you discuss Rav Hirsh's comment instead?

Regardless of whether you believe the science is true or not, he states that such a theory is not a problem theologically.     What do you think about that?  Care to comment?

[wonga66]

Every generation has its specific test/yetzer/zeitgeist thrown up by the Satan. Rambam had to contend with Greek philosophy. Hence his controversial "Moreh Nevuchim". BZK said that our generation's test is how to respond to the presence of Yishmoel within Eretz Yisrael: most rabbis of today have failed that test. Hirsch's generation was tested by Evolution and the inroads of the Reform/Deform movement in Germany. The rabbis of each generation do their best to rise to the challenge with the knowledge they have to hand at that time, endeavouring reconciliations with Torah when possible, an often tricky task. If R.Hirsch knew then what we know today about the theory of Evolution, he would have utterly rejected it & become an instant YEC.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

If R.Hirsch knew then what we know today about the theory of Evolution, he would have utterly rejected it & become an instant YEC.

Why's that?

The only difference now is that it's more refined and has more evidence to back it up.

But read again what he said:

""Even if this notion were ever to gain complete acceptance by the scientific world..."

(Which it now has)

"...Judaism in that case would call upon its adherents to give even greater reverence than ever before to the one, sole G-d Who, in His boundless creative wisdom and eternal omnipotence, needed to bring into existence no more than one single, amorphous nucleus, and one single law of “adaptation and heredity” in order to bring forth, from what seemed chaos but was in fact a very definite order, the infinite variety of species we know today, each with its unique characteristics that sets it apart from all other creatures."


So it seems your claim does not fit with what Rav Hirsh actually wrote.

Also I find it odd that you think it was his job then to "do their best to rise to the challenge with the knowledge they have to hand at that time, endeavouring reconciliations with Torah when possible" yet you insist that is not our job today, and instead we should crawl into a hole and become cowering "YEC" 's  because we are too afraid to deal with the reality.

[wonga66]

I have already given 18 scientific evidences against evolution.

You have given not one.

This is more than a pretty poor show. Could it be that you have....none?!

[MassuhDGoodName]

MASSUHDGOODNAME'S HEAVY DUTY QUESTIONS OF THE DAY FOR wonga66 and muman613:

If my understanding is correct, the Jewish Rabbis and Temple Priests of the ancient world considered such diseases as inherited deformities, retardation, congenital abnormalities, etc., to be Ha'Shem's judgment and punishment for the sins of parents.

And Torah Jews in ancient Eretz Yisrael were adamant that diseases such as those we now know to be caused by bacteria, viruses, parasites, and malnutrition, were the work of "demons', "unclean spirits", etc...

In fact, until very recently, when such men as Van Leeuwenhoek, Edward Jenner, Joseph Lister, and Pasteur discovered the scientific proof of the existence of microscopic life forms which accounted for most diseases and infections, all of the world's renowned scientific and religious "experts" and authorities declared that "vapors from stagnant water actually transmorphized into frogs and toads" and if inhaled were the causes of what we know today as TB and pleurisy, etc...

Were it not for modern Jews totally rejecting such Jewish teachings as "Ha'Shem creates spastic and deformed babies as punishment for its parents' sins", we would not today take for granted the great scientific advancements encompassing the microbial theory of disease, genetics, evolutionary theory, and even digital electronics!

Had we Jews remained a people denouncing and rejecting any and everything not found written in Torah and Talmud, a great many of us would today be sitting outside the City Gates with tin cups begging handouts for the blind.

Thanks to the Enlightenment and Jews like Spinoza, Jews the world over now have access to corrective lenses and eyeglasses.

And until men of science rebuked Jewish and Christian religious teachings which forbade the dissection of cadavers, and risked their lives to study the human body and repair it surgically, such common injuries as inguinal  hernias or ruptured spinal discs meant living life as an incapacitated and suffering cripple.

My questions:

How is it possible to be a Jewish adherent and proponent of Torah Literalism in the 21st Century; accepting as "truth" "the 6000 year timeline, "geocentric Earth", and demonology, while virtually everything good in your life you owe to the modern sciences which you know to stand in complete contradiction of the Word of Torah if literally understood?

Is it not a glaring contradiction for someone to profess as their faith "Torah says it is Truth, and/or our Sages confirm it", while at the same time they enjoy all the benefits of modern science which rejected all the previous notions and beliefs of man, substituting instead the rationalist principles of the scientific method which gave us modern medicine?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I have already given 18 scientific evidences against evolution.   

No, you haven't.  This is simply delusional.

The scientific community accepts common ancestry and some type of evolutionary mechanism to arrive from there to the present day scenario. 

That is not "disproved" by dialectic arguments or "pointed questions" you raise ignorantly.   If you have something to dispute about evolution, go publish your experimental work in a scientific journal and then point us to where your work is located in pubmed so that we can see for ourselves.    You have not "given evidences" for anything.

You have given not one. 

You still refuse to address the subject of my thread which was Rav Hirsh's comment.

The entire scientific community adheres to the theory of evolution in general, and this is due to the preponderance of evidence in its favor that has been uncovered by multiple fields.   It needs no introduction from me, and this is not the place for me to "prove" it to people who don't agree with science.

This is more than a pretty poor show. Could it be that you have....none?!

I have only the inductive "proofs" that science utilizes.  For most intellectually honest people, that's sufficient.   You, on the other hand, will claim that no inductive proof is absolute proof, so similarly we also cannot prove anything in science.    This is not a rational point of view and not worth my time.

[wonga66]

Very few Orthodox rabbis today believe in Evolution.

Most Orthodox Jewish PhD scientists are strongly contra Evolution. Read their articles http://www.borhatorah.org/

60% of the US populace disavows the theory of Evolution.

Among them are 1000s of top PhD scientists http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/bios/

They can present you with a solid scientific case for a young universe, and a watertight case to demolish evolution.

Evolution has been responsible for Huxley, Freudian psychology, moral relativity, atheistic existentialism, materialistic hedonism, despair, Nietzsche, Marxism, Nazism and modern racism.

Charles Darwin has been in the Tropics of the Afterlife for 130 years

If Jewish evolutionists like Asimov



and Sagan



could be let out of Gehennom for one instant, they'd tell you a story


 Do you want to throw in your lot with evil evilutionists who are also destined for Gehennom like

Dawkins



Hitchens



and Hawking?

[MassuhDGoodName]

It is a scientific fact that all of those 'dinosaur bones' and 'fossilized skeletons' that have been found are in fact nothing but the paper mache and plaster of Paris junior high school science projects made by a bunch of red skinned Indian teenagers at the Pothawotami Indian Reservation in Wahocken, Wisconsin, back in 1867.

The Common ists say that these fake bone looking objects prove Darwin is true, which is ridiculous because Darwin never even visited that Indian Reservation, nor did Darwin ever find any bones throughout his many vacation sea cruises!

Darwin eventually was arrested in Argentina for givIng the cannibals dollar bills to throw their family members into live volcanoes while he filmed the whole thing.

The reason you've never heard this before is because the Atheist Religion had his police record expunged and covered up the whole affair in order to sign a book deal with Karl (Karlie) Marx, long rumored to be Darwin's "cabin boy" and "personal attendant".

The thing I can't figure out, is how come it doesn't say in the Bible "And G-d created Hell" on one of those six days?" 

Renounce Evolution, Darwin, and all that came from it!

Better to sit shivering in a soon to be foreclosed home, with no electricity, no medicine, no food, no telecommunications, no computer, and no internal combustion engines, than to burn in HELL!~ for all Eternity!

WELL...WHAT'S IT GONNA' BE, JEWMAN!     
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Notice carefully:

the right hand

- the outer fingers extended (this represents love for Russiaism, Chinaism, Cubaism, and North Koreaism)

- pinky finger is placed under the fourth finger (pointing in the direction of the nearest Masonic Lodge)

- the middle finger is hidden! (this is The Secret Masonic Hand Signal instructing all Atheists to make Creationists disappear and hide!)

[muman613]

Massuh,

I see your questions below and I do intend on answering some of your questions eventually. But you ask another interesting question in your last posting.... You say :

The thing I can't figure out, is how come it doesn't say in the Bible "And G-d created Hell" on one of those six days?"

Well, as you know the Jewish sages do not leave any question unanswered. Judaism is one of the only religion which goes out of its way to ask and answer all questions. Of course we know when Gehinnom was created from our Oral Tradition.

Here are some interesting tidbits from the Talmud on the subject of Gehinnom:

http://www.webshas.org/emunah/gehennom.htm

Hell - Gehennom

Links

      The Angel of Hell
      Satan and the Angel of Death
      Divine Reward and Punishment
      The Next World - Olam HaBa

General Details

      Details of the valley known as "The Valley of Ben Hinom" - "Gei ben Hinom": Eruvin 19a; Succah 32b
      The openings of Gehennom in the desert, the sea and Jerusalem: Eruvin 19a
      The breadth and width of Hell: Pesachim 94a
    Hell was created before the Universe: Pesachim 54a; Nedarim 39b
      When the "Mouth" of Hell was created: Nedarim 39b
      Its fire was created on Day Two of Creation: Pesachim 54a
      Better to receive punishment in this world, rather than after death: Pesachim 57b
      Those who remain in Hell past 12 months: Rosh HaShanah 17a
      Isaac's merit keeping the Jews from Hell: Shabbat 104a
      Why Gehennom has the name "Gehennom": Eruvin 19a
      Gehennom is also titled "Yam Kol [Sea of All]" because so many go there: R. Shabbat 104a "LiYam Kol"
      Gehennom is also known as "Tifteh": Eruvin 19a
      Gehennom is also known as "Sheol": Eruvin 19a
      Gehennom is also known as "Avadon": Eruvin 19a
      Gehennom is also known as "Be'er Shachat": Eruvin 19a
      Gehennom is also known as "Bor Shaon": Eruvin 19a
      Gehennom is also known as "Tit haYavan": Eruvin 19a
      Gehennom is also known as "Tzalmavet": Eruvin 19a
      Gehennom is also known as "Eretz haTachtit": Eruvin 19a
      Gehennom is also known as "Paku": Megillah 15b
      Gehennom is also known as "Raah [Evil]": Nedarim 22a, 40a
      Rage causes one to be afflicted by "types of Hell": Nedarim 22a
      When Avshalom was hanging, he saw Gehennom open beneath him: Sotah 10b
      King David cried out over Avshalom, "My son," eight times; this brought Avshalom out of seven levels of Gehennom, and either caused his head to come back to his body, or brought him into the next world: Sotah 10b


Groups of People in Hell

      People who are arrogant: Sotah 4b-5a
      When humans punish a wicked person, they have to shut the wicked person's mouth to keep him from slandering them; Gd punishes the wicked in Gehennom, and they admit His justice: Eruvin 19a
      Whether the wicked repent at the entrance to Gehennom, or not: Eruvin 19a
      The punishment of those who cause others to sin carelessly, with their bodies: Rosh HaShanah 17a [2x]
      The Definition of the Above category includes Jews who don't wear Phylacteries: Rosh HaShanah 17a
      The Definition of the Above category includes non-Jews who reign with terror, or who cause sexual sin: Rosh HaShanah 17a
      The punishment of opponents of Torah: Rosh HaShanah 17a
      The punishment of Those who Betray their People: Rosh HaShanah 17a
      The punishment of heretics: Rosh HaShanah 17a
      The punishment of those who act separately from the community: Rosh HaShanah 17a
      The punishment of those leaders who cause others to fear them: Rosh HaShanah 17a
      The fate of Yeravam ben Nevat: Rosh HaShanah 17a
      The punishment of those who embarrass others: Bava Metzia 58b
      The punishment of those who alter others' names, even if the nicknames are common: Bava Metzia 58b
      The punishment of adulterous men: Bava Metzia 58b
      A person who is adulterous will end up in Gehennom, even if he is a Torah Scholar: Sotah 4b
      A person who listens to his wife's advice in certain areas, as King Achav did, will end up in gehennom: Bava Metzia 59a


Anecdotes involving Hell

      Korach's children were saved from descending into Hell: Megillah 14a
      When Nevuchadnezzar descended to Hell, the people there thought he had come to rule them, until a Bat Kol [Divine Voice] put him in his place: Shabbat 149b-150a
      Avraham saves his descendants from Gehennom, unless they intermarried: Eruvin 19a


Attributes/Acts which prevent entry to Hell

      Jews are protected from the fires of Gehennom by their Mitzvot: Eruvin 19a
      Humility: Yevamot 102b
      Fear of sin: Shabbat 104a
      Awe of HaShem: Yevamot 102b
      Charity: Gittin 7a
      Visiting the Sick: Nedarim 40a
      Care in enunciating the words of Shema merits a chilling of Hell: Berachot 15b
      Suffering poverty: Eruvin 41b
      Suffering intestinal disorders: Eruvin 41b
      Suffering from money-lenders: Eruvin 41b [according to Rashi]
      Suffering from a harsh government: Eruvin 41b [according to Tosafot]
      Suffering from a bad spouse: Eruvin 41b


Other

      Titus's attempt to avoid posthumous Divine punishment via cremation and scattering of his ashes - and how the tactic failed: Gittin 56b-57a

[MassuhDGoodName]

This is all some seriously severe stuff, muman613.

Do you think there's anyone on the forum besides me who will not have to go to that place?

And is there anything I might can do then to relieve everyone's terrible suffering?     

[muman613]

This is all some seriously severe stuff, muman613.

Do you think there's anyone on the forum besides me who will not have to go to that place?

And is there anything I might can do then to relieve everyone's terrible suffering?     

You know something Massuh, it seems that {according to these beliefs} we all will spend a little time in the hot place... I know it is not a good thing to do but in the back of my mind I am resigned to spending some time in gehinnom for the things I have done in my life...

[MassuhDGoodName]

muman613"  "in the back of my mind I am resigned to spending some time in gehinnom for the things I have done in my life... "

I understand.

Don't worry about it, because I will bring you some icewater, as long as you're willing to pay me for it, that is!     

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "Attributes/Acts which prevent entry to Hell ... Suffering intestinal disorders: Eruvin 41b "

This is because of the toilet paper shortage there.

You have to wait till the diarrhea is over before the Devil will let you in!     

[muman613]

Re:  "Attributes/Acts which prevent entry to Hell ... Suffering intestinal disorders: Eruvin 41b "

This is because of the toilet paper shortage there.

You have to wait till the diarrhea is over before the Devil will let you in!     

Ahh,

Now you have relieved my suffering.... I was ROFLMAOing so hard...

I hope that I will not be spending as much time as you in the hot place... But if we happen to share time there together I will surely save a place for you...

But I was just reading that all Jews have a place in the world to come {even the sinners}... Even an empty Jew is as full of mitzvot as a pomegranate [has seeds] according to the same Talmud Eruvin 19a... So just maybe the merit of our forefathers may help us {so long as we are circumcised it is said that Abraham himself saves us from gehinnom}...

http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/to-live-and-live-again/16.htm
The core of one of the explanations offered with regard to this matter is as follows: As stated in many discourses,[12]  Gan Eden is granted as a reward for Torah study, while the Resurrection of the Dead comes as a reward for the observance of mitzvos. This explains why Gan Eden is a world of (incorporate) souls, while in the Era of Resurrection, the souls will be enclothed in bodies. For Torah study relates primarily to the soul, while the observance of mitzvos relates primarily to the body.[13]

All Jews observe mitzvos; indeed, "Even the sinners of Israel are as full of mitzvos as a pomegranate [is full of] seeds."[14] Therefore "Every Jew has a share in the World to Come."

It is possible to explain that this is also the intent of the Mishnah's citation of the prooftext,[15] "And your people are all righteous; they shall inherit the land forever...." By quoting this verse, the Mishnah not only testifies that all Jews have a share in the World to Come, but also explains why this is so.

A person who observes mitzvos is referred to as "righteous", a tzaddik. {Since all the mitzvos are referred to as tzedakah[16] - "righteousness", those who perform mitzvos are termed tzaddikim - "righteous individuals"}.[17] Since "your people are all righteous," all Jews (even the sinners among them) observe mitzvos. Moreover, they are "filled with mitzvos"; i.e., the mitzvos they observe fill their entire existence and being. Therefore "they shall inherit the land forever" - the "Land of Life,"[18] which refers to life in the World to Come.

The above explanation, however, does not account for the Mishnah's mention of the conclusion of the verse, "they are the branch of My planting, the work of My hands, in which I take pride." [This phrase highlights] the essential virtue possessed by [all] Jews, that they are "the branch of My planting, the work of My hands" - (possessing this virtue independent of their observance of mitzvos).

[By quoting this phrase as part of the prooftext for the concept,] "Every Jew has a share in the World to Come," the Mishnah indicates that the share all Jews possess in the World to Come is (also) a result of their inherent virtue.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Very few Orthodox rabbis today believe in Evolution. 

So what?  Some do.

Most Orthodox Jewish PhD scientists are strongly contra Evolution. Read their articles http://www.borhatorah.org/   

But you've only quoted those who are vocally against it.

There are others who are not against it.    I know some personally, and I know that certain others of them have written so in the book "Challenge" from the 1970's.

60% of the US populace disavows the theory of Evolution.

Irrelevant.  These same people believe in alien abductions, Yeshu as their savior, Muhammad as their prophet, superstitions, etc etc.    The truth of an issue is not decided based on how many people accept it, certainly not how many Americans accept it.  Popularity is not relevant.

Among them are 1000s of top PhD scientists http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/bios/

Silly.   Common ancestry is accepted in science as fact.   Debate centers around the precise mechanisms by which the species evolved /appeared.     But ID really has nothing to stand on because their few examples of "irreducible complexity" have been dealt with at length.

They can present you with a solid scientific case for a young universe, and a watertight case to demolish evolution.

Anyone who makes any kind of "case" for a "young" universe (as in, 6000 years old), is not saying anything scientific but simply presenting a distortion.   Science accepts the age of the universe as quite "old."

Evolution has been responsible for Huxley, Freudian psychology, moral relativity, atheistic existentialism, materialistic hedonism, despair, Nietzsche, Marxism, Nazism and modern racism. 

This is the dumbest argument yet.

By this absurd logic, "theism" has been responsible for Muhammad.

And you can't blame evolution on those other creatures, just because they took a scientific notion and made a stupid/evil philosophy out of it.   The SCIENCE is either sound or it isn't.   And in this case, it is.   And half of these names/things have nothing to do with it anyway.

Charles Darwin has been in the Tropics of the Afterlife for 130 years

Presumptuous and irrelevant stupidity.    I have no way of knowing where Darwin is, only G-d can judge his deeds as a person, and where he is simply is NOT relevant.   You are the master of irrelevance it seems. 

The science behind evolution is either sound or it isn't sound.   And it is.

If Jewish evolutionists like Asimov
and Sagan
could be let out of Gehennom for one instant, they'd tell you a story

More presumptuous stupidity.

I can just as easily say, and in just as stupid fashion, that Asimov and Sagan, if they would be let down from Gan Eden or from Shamayim, they would tell you a story that you should definitely believe evolution and try to reconcile it with the Torah before you lose more Jews for no reason.

Do you want to throw in your lot with evil evilutionists who are also destined for Gehennom like

You really cannot be this dumb to think this is a legitimate argument.   Dawkins goes beyond evolution and decides his philosophy that there is no G-d.   But I do not accept that philosophy.   I simply accept the science and my philosophy is that of Judaism in which G-d exists.    So Dawkins, his place in gehenom, and who is with him, are all not relevant to this question.     I also think it's ridiculous that you presume to know where these other individuals go, but hey you can adhere to whatever illusions you want to.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Muman, I notice you've dealt with some softballs but you fail to grapple with the key questions Massuh presented originally.

The fact is, evolution, as a scientific theory, does not contradict a belief in God or adherence to Torah Judaism.  Some people here are unwilling to face that fact and continue to promote their weak propaganda instead.   This is truly a shame.    The whole point of this thread was to present that basic point with some evidence backing it up - the statement of the great Rav Samson Raphael Hirsh.   But some people here seem to think they know better than Rav Hirsh and all Torah scholars combined when it comes to this one solitary issue of evolution even though they lack an expertise in Torah and ALSO lack an expertise in evolution or the sciences behind it.   This is incredibly ironic.

[cjd]

Muman, I notice you've dealt with some softballs but you fail to grapple with the key questions Massuh presented originally.

The fact is, evolution, as a scientific theory, does not contradict a belief in G-d or adherence to Torah Judaism. Some people here are unwilling to face that fact and continue to promote their weak propaganda instead.   This is truly a shame.    The whole point of this thread was to present that basic point with some evidence backing it up - the statement of the great Rav Samson Raphael Hirsh.   But some people here seem to think they know better than Rav Hirsh and all Torah scholars combined when it comes to this one solitary issue of evolution even though they lack an expertise in Torah and ALSO lack an expertise in evolution or the sciences behind it.   This is incredibly ironic.

I'm with you.... I can't believe some of the reasons given for ignoring evolution... I feel like I am watching a poor reenactment of the Scopes Monkey Trials.

[muman613]

Muman, I notice you've dealt with some softballs but you fail to grapple with the key questions Massuh presented originally.

The fact is, evolution, as a scientific theory, does not contradict a belief in G-d or adherence to Torah Judaism.  Some people here are unwilling to face that fact and continue to promote their weak propaganda instead.   This is truly a shame.    The whole point of this thread was to present that basic point with some evidence backing it up - the statement of the great Rav Samson Raphael Hirsh.   But some people here seem to think they know better than Rav Hirsh and all Torah scholars combined when it comes to this one solitary issue of evolution even though they lack an expertise in Torah and ALSO lack an expertise in evolution or the sciences behind it.   This is incredibly ironic.

As I said before. I have my reservations even after looking at the so-called evidence. I have pointed out that there are scientific reasons to question carbon-dating and I can provide links to these.

I do not believe that there is any contradiction between Science and Torah. Science is simply the attempt of man to try to understand the forces by which this world operate. Science has been extremely beneficial in many areas, but it has failed miserably in many other areas.

Science is truly a double-edged sword. When people put more faith in science and the priests of science calling themselves scientists they are lead further and further from the answers to lifes many questions.

Science asks those who believe in it to only believe that which can be proven by rational means, either by experiments or by mathematical equations. Hashem is not a mathematical equation, nor is he able to be experimented on... There will never be a science which can explain Hashem as science is in itself a creation of Hashem, and the evidence of Hashem is meant to be hidden.

I am tired of arguing this point. I am afraid that what has been discussed has already turned people away from believing in Hashem. Do you think that the Jews stood at the banks of the sea of Reeds could reliably expect the odds of the sea splitting? I don't think so... It came down to faith in Hashem when the odds were exactly against the event happening. This is why it is a miracle even though scientists are trying to determine a scientific reason for this...

[MassuhDGoodName]

muman613:  "I am afraid that what has been discussed has already turned people away from believing in Hashem. "

Precisely the opposite is true.

Everyone here believes.

Unless people are able to question their own beliefs, how can they possibly really be faithful?

It's easy for tiny isolated little "ghettos" of Lubavitchers in NY and in Jerusalem and their fellow Orthodox to raise their children knowing one thing and one thing only, being told from birth "Do not dare to ever question what we believe!".

Otherwise known as brainwashing.

If you're unable to access any other information, then you're not confronted with opposing viewpoints and facts which might challenge that which you accepted on face value.


It is my firm belief that the opinions of the Sages are based on their thorough analysis and examination of Torah to the extent that their experiences and educations allowed them to do within the limitations placed on them by the available body of knowledge known at the time in which they lived.

They lacked a great deal of knowledge about the world and everything in it which we today take for granted.

Does that negate the truths of their studies?

No.

What negates Torah is when someone holds the opinion that any and all information unwritten in either Talmud or Torah is a lie and is to be rejected.

Someone that narrow and closed minded is representing the Inifinite Omniscient One Creator G-d of Israel as closed, finite, finished two thousand years ago, nothing more able to be learned or to even exist.

Yet each and all who cling to this viewpoint live lives totally dependent on everything they renounce as a lie and a denial of Torah!

They wear eyeglasses, own shoes and clothing manufactured from synthetic materials overseas in China which is then shipped to the States either on jets or on ships, use a home computer which relies on the the sciences of fiber optics and digital technology and has more computational power, speed, and precision than any one human brain, and they go regularly to see a Jewish physician using knowledge and instruments which his own ancestors decried and banned as "the desecration of Torah and the denial of G-d's existence!"

They'll even have "pacemakers" installed in their chest cavities!

If Ha'Shem hadn't already created each and every one of these miraculous sciences and properties at the very moment the Universe was Created, man wouldn't have been able to discover that they were always here from the very beginning waiting for him to use his brain as it was intended by his Creator.

Everything which "seemingly" (not really) contradicts Torah was put here by G-d at the moment of Creation, so denying any "scientific studies and facts" because they're not in Torah or Talmud is in essence putting MANKIND ahead of a Supreme Being!

For if these things were not from the beginning available for man to slowly discover and learn, then man himself invented each and every one and created the sciences and skills all by himself.

So, I don't have to decide which it is that I believe.

I long ago accepted the fact that a day as stated in time by the Sages still doesn't say a single thing about how long G-d Himself defines it as He sees fit and whenever He feels like it!

[wonga66]

When non-Torah believers themselves start doubting the theory of Evolution, then you've got to buck up:

 "Evolutionism is a fairy tale for grown-ups. This theory has helped nothing in the progress of science. It is useless" (Professor Louis Bounoure, Director of Research, French National Centre of Scientific Research),

One thing evilutionists really hate is actually discussing the scientific evidences for evilution. In public debates between creationists and evilutionists, the former always win hands down, with the latter always forced to resort to ad hominems and name calling - the classic debating tactic and sure sign of those with a weak/non-existent case!

Notice how how not one scientific evidence has been brought by the OP to support evilution, merely confirming that:

"Scientists who go about teaching that evolution is a fact of life are great con-men, and the story they are telling is the greatest hoax ever. They do not have one iota of fact" (Dr.T.N.Tahmisian, Atomic Energy Commission, USA).

[muman613]

muman613:  "I am afraid that what has been discussed has already turned people away from believing in Hashem. "

Precisely the opposite is true.

Everyone here believes.

Unless people are able to question their own beliefs, how can they possibly really be faithful?

It's easy for tiny isolated little "ghettos" of Lubavitchers in NY and in Jerusalem and their fellow Orthodox to raise their children knowing one thing and one thing only, being told from birth "Do not dare to ever question what we believe!".

Otherwise known as brainwashing.

If you're unable to access any other information, then you're not confronted with opposing viewpoints and facts which might challenge that which you accepted on face value.


It is my firm belief that the opinions of the Sages are based on their thorough analysis and examination of Torah to the extent that their experiences and educations allowed them to do within the limitations placed on them by the available body of knowledge known at the time in which they lived.

They lacked a great deal of knowledge about the world and everything in it which we today take for granted.

Does that negate the truths of their studies?

No.

What negates Torah is when someone holds the opinion that any and all information unwritten in either Talmud or Torah is a lie and is to be rejected.

Someone that narrow and closed minded is representing the Inifinite Omniscient One Creator G-d of Israel as closed, finite, finished two thousand years ago, nothing more able to be learned or to even exist.

Yet each and all who cling to this viewpoint live lives totally dependent on everything they renounce as a lie and a denial of Torah!

They wear eyeglasses, own shoes and clothing manufactured from synthetic materials overseas in China which is then shipped to the States either on jets or on ships, use a home computer which relies on the the sciences of fiber optics and digital technology and has more computational power, speed, and precision than any one human brain, and they go regularly to see a Jewish physician using knowledge and instruments which his own ancestors decried and banned as "the desecration of Torah and the denial of G-d's existence!"

They'll even have "pacemakers" installed in their chest cavities!

If Ha'Shem hadn't already created each and every one of these miraculous sciences and properties at the very moment the Universe was Created, man wouldn't have been able to discover that they were always here from the very beginning waiting for him to use his brain as it was intended by his Creator.

Everything which "seemingly" (not really) contradicts Torah was put here by G-d at the moment of Creation, so denying any "scientific studies and facts" because they're not in Torah or Talmud is in essence putting MANKIND ahead of a Supreme Being!

For if these things were not from the beginning available for man to slowly discover and learn, then man himself invented each and every one and created the sciences and skills all by himself.

So, I don't have to decide which it is that I believe.

I long ago accepted the fact that a day as stated in time by the Sages still doesn't say a single thing about how long G-d Himself defines it as He sees fit and whenever He feels like it!

Massuh,

I never suggested that a Jew doesn't have to learn about the sciences. As I stated about myself, I was quite good at the sciences when I attended school. I was in advanced math and science classes throughout high school.

Also a Jew is required to ask questions, as I stated in this thread earlier about gehinnom.

The issue to me is that a scientist should be a Jew first and a scientist second. That Hashem should always be the key to understanding all of physical and spiritual reality.

In the field of computer science I see Hashems hand in my work daily. Even though it is a science there is still an aspect of art required to develop software. Sometimes all the parts just seem to come together just in time for Shabbat...