Chilean miners invited by Israel for an all-up "spiritual Xtian holiday"

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Re:  "This is the ranting of a crazy man that seems to need medication.  Of course, you really didn't mean what you wrote, so why did you write it, exactly? "

This is the pot calling the kettle black.

Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

It's not really the pot calling the kettle black because I say what I mean.  I don't build up these false edifices and caricatures in order to provoke people.   

Maybe you didn't notice that I asked you why you wrote what you did?   I know that it was satirical - the question is what you meant to achieve.   I did NOT say you need medication, I was saying that if you actually believed in what you wrote, then you would.  But I don't believe you do.  I  really don't believe that was a serious comment when you said

So then, you do agree with me that any and all mention of Solomon must be expunged and removed from all Jewish Scriptures, correct?

 

So aside from ridiculing muman or white Israelite, or any other religious Jew here, and portraying them as if they need medication, can you state what the purpose was in saying that?

[Yaakov Mendel]

It's really no big deal in my opinion they are Christians i think there are many Churches in Israel let them visit.

Yes ! Thank you for your sanity and your simplicity !

[Yaakov Mendel]

The Holy Land also has sites that are important to Christians because they were mentioned in the NT. There are reasons why Christians might want to visit these sites where Jesus walked and lived. If they are strictly not allowed to missionize, then I don't see how this threatens the Jewish state or its Jewish culture or religion.

Of course. I am a Jew and I fully agree with you. You should not even have to make your point.

[muman613]

There is a reason Hashem commanded the Jewish people to remove all Avodah Zarah from the land. This was done to ensure the survival of the Jewish people. Hashem, in many parts of the Torah, is clear that there should be no foreign gods worshipped in the land. Even to the point of tearing down and destroying their idols. Jews throughout history have been tempted to do avodah zarah by the peoples who live in the land. The Torah clearly says to drive these bad influences out of the land.

I am sorry if that seems harsh. But there are how many Christian counties? How many Muslim countries? And how many Jewish states? Only one... Let the Jews keep their religion in Israel and keep the foreign G-d worship elsewhere... Please...

PS: I am not saying that Christianity is evil, that it is bad, etc... I am saying that from Hashems perspective {according to the Torah of Moshe} it is a bad influence on the Jewish people. Can't Jews have a land where they are not subjected to foreign influences? Can't we dwell alone as Hashem promised us?

http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/chrysler/archives/balak70.htm

Rabeinu Bachye, discussing the above Pasuk, explains that Yisrael are a special nation who dwell alone (in this world), and who are not reckoned among the nations, because, in keeping with the explanation of Targum Yonasan, they are unique on account of both their Torah and their faith. And he adds that, by virtue of the 'Lamed' that prefixes the word "le'vodod", the Pasuk can also be translated to mean that they belong to the G-d who dwells alone.

According to R. Bachye's interpretation of the Pasuk, this is not a prophecy, but rather Bil'am singing the praises of Yisrael (in keeping with the Pesukim that follow, where he lists a number of special Mitzvos that Yisrael perform). What Bil'am therefore means to say is that just as Hashem is unique among the gods, together with whom He cannot be reckoned, so too, are Yisrael, who are His people, unique, in that they cannot be reckoned among the nations of the world. One of the many Pesukim that the author cites in support of this explanation is the Pasuk at the end of Kedoshim (20:26) " … and I will divide you from among the nations to become Mine".

*

The Ha'mek Davar goes one step further. He explains that when other nations go into exile, they make every effort to integrate with their host nation. They know that by doing so, they will find favour in their eyes and that by merging into one nation, they will earn their affection and popularity more than they would by retaining their own customs and way of life. Not so Yisrael. By retaining their Torah lifestyle, he explains, they will earn the respect and admiration of their captors, as the Torah writes in Ki Savo (28:10) "And all the nations of the land will see that the Name of G-d is upon you and they will be afraid of you!"

*

Quoting a Gemara in Sanhedrin (104a), the Ha'mek Davar explains that G-d wants Yisrael to maintain a division between themselves and the nations of the world. As long as they do, they will be secure (as the Torah writes in ve'Zos ha'B'rachah [33:28]). When they don't, they will be left to the mercy of the nations, which will eventually lead to the implementation of the lament in the opening Pasuk of Eichah "How she (Yerushalayim) dwells alone!" The key word in both Pesukim is the same as the key word here - "Bodod".

As long as Yisrael maintains the division between themselves and the nations of the world - even when they are in Galus, they will live securely. And it is when they aspire to emulate the lifestyle and customs of their captors that their captors despise them and turn against them (which is how the author explains "u'va'goyim lo yischashov"). That is why the Pasuk in Kedoshim that we quoted earlier writes "And I will divide you from among the nations …" Because a division there must be! When we make that division, the nations respect us. But when we don't, then G-d will make it. For so Chazal have said 'When there is Din below (on earth) then there is no Din above. But whenever there is no Din below, then there is Din above!'

[Yaakov Mendel]

There is a reason Hashem commanded the Jewish people to remove all Avodah Zarah from the land. This was done to ensure the survival of the Jewish people. Hashem, in many parts of the Torah, is clear that there should be no foreign gods worshipped in the land. Even to the point of tearing down and destroying their idols. Jews throughout history have been tempted to do avodah zarah by the peoples who live in the land. The Torah clearly says to drive these bad influences out of the land.

I am sorry if that seems harsh. But there are how many Christian counties? How many Muslim countries? And how many Jewish states? Only one... Let the Jews keep their religion in Israel and keep the foreign G-d worship elsewhere... Please...

The biblical prohibition of Avodah Zara was written against pagans. Do you view Christians as pagans ?
Besides, we are simply talking about letting Christians visit places that are mentioned in the NT ! We are not talking about any attempt to missionize. By saying that every sign of another religion should be thrown out of Israel to avoid temptation, you are making Jews look like weaklings who are unsure of their faith.

[muman613]

I am done arguing about this... Everyone knows how I feel and I will leave it at that..
.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Well that was uncalled for.

For the record I was speaking to Coon, who is antagonizing Jews constantly, but the comment could easily apply to you too with your recent behavior.

[Rubystars]

The Holy Land also has sites that are important to Christians because they were mentioned in the NT. There are reasons why Christians might want to visit these sites where Jesus walked and lived. If they are strictly not allowed to missionize, then I don't see how this threatens the Jewish state or its Jewish culture or religion.

Of course. I am a Jew and I fully agree with you. You should not even have to make your point.

Thanks yaakov

[cjd]

Well it's really a very simple issue Israel either wants tourism or it doesn't....The money spent bringing the miners and their families over is just seed money to build good will and gain publicity for travel to Israel... I don't think 33 miners visiting Israel will destroy the foundations of the Jewish religion.... Personally I don't think that they will even except the invitation because they have book deals and other money making functions they will be busy attending...If they did go to Israel I am sure they would not do anything to disrespect the people who invited them there... Threads like this are for the birds... Some of the posts are down right comical in a sad way because they do a great deal of damage to our movement here at JTF...

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "Some of the posts are down right comical in a sad way "

Yeah.

Sort of like enjoying a freak show!     

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Mitflezet (Wonga) has been a troll from day one.

[TheCoon]

Well that was uncalled for.

For the record I was speaking to Coon, who is antagonizing Jews constantly, but the comment could easily apply to you too with your recent behavior.

By antagonizing Jews you must mean standing up for Christians when certain posters demean and compare our faith to pagan idol worship or even demonic islam. Maybe if you should spend more time defending your own from vicious verbal attacks instead of posting about Eminem or Miley Cyrus.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

By antagonizing Jews you must mean standing up for Christians when certain posters demean and compare our faith to pagan idol worship or even demonic islam. Maybe if you should spend more time defending your own from vicious verbal attacks instead of posting about Eminem or Miley Cyrus.

Says the poster who said it is the Jews' fault that we have Obama. If you think I am gay because I expose Eminem's gayness, then I think that you are the boyfriend of Wonga or Ron.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

The Holy Land also has sites that are important to Christians

Then you must realize the depressing reality that the Holy Land is the Jews'/Torah's Land. If you want to have a place in the Holy Land, you must obey our laws - not yours.

[Rubystars]

Ron I usually ignore you now, but I do want to say that the fact that the Holy Land now belongs to the Jews is a miracle and very inspiring, not depressing at all!

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

It is outrages that the very Halacha that Avodah Zara
should be eliminated from the Holy Land is debated and
not accepted.

Celebrate your holidays at home, not in the Holy Land.

But the biblical prohibition of Avodah Zara was written against pagans. Do you view Christians as pagans ?

Judaism clearly sees Xtianity as Paganism. Xtianity's realization of Divinity formed in Jesus, and the Trinity is Shituf. Also, basic principles and holidays of Xtianity and even its very symbol are originated in earlier Pagan religions. I can bring many sources if you want.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

Ruby don't you find how discusting this is? Jews celebrating Xmas in The Holy Land at Jewish Taxpayers expense!

I don't think that Israeli taxpayers should pay for this. If they're going to go on vacation to Israel, it should be private money funding it only. I just didn't like the tone of wonga's post.

Our religion forbids the existence of any other religion in the Land of Israel,
because it is a direct violation of the very reason the Jewish people were
created and why they have been given the Land of Israel to rule over.

When you say this we feel the same way you'd feel had we've been
breaking into your local church reciting what the Talmud says about
your "Messiah"/idol.

One day Ron Ben Michael you will grow up.  That was totally uncalled for. 
I feel very sorry for you.
I don't have to bash, question, or ridicule your faith.  Mostly because I'm very secure in my own. 
Is that how the Talmud tells you to act? 
I'm sad to see threads like this over and over again.
I'm sure it's turning good, and potential, members away.

You have the need to focus on my age and tell me to behave because you obviously don't like what I say.
You have a problem with Judaism's position - not my position - and you want to silent it because it's not
"politically incorrect" or polite to stand up for your faith. You think it's right for me to betray the principles of my faith because it does endanger your faith and it endagers your position on Jewish-Xtian co-operation.

Chaim, although he disagrees with me on co-operation with you, agrees with me that Xtianity is Idolatry according to Judaism. That's the Jewish position. He just says we should keep our differences apart and work together for what he calls "common goals". Chaim as a man of principles, same as I am, will not silence Judaism for the sake of public relations. If the Eminem lover calls this a Jewish version of Nazism, he must refer to Judaism and not only to me.

[Irish Zionist]

Well that was uncalled for.

For the record I was speaking to Coon, who is antagonizing Jews constantly, but the comment could easily apply to you too with your recent behavior.

What? For telling the truth that Xmas being celebrated in Jewish Land as obscene? Well if you support a foreign holiday in Israel that worships idols then you don't support Israel as a Jewish state with Jewish laws. And I have never said that Xtians can't travel to Israel.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

By saying that every sign of another religion should be thrown out of Israel to avoid temptation, you are making Jews look like weaklings who are unsure of their faith.

What you say is actually the argument Missionaries use when they cry out about being banned from Jewish forums. "You don't me to post twisted missionary videos on your forum, then you must be insecure with your
faith!".

No, he makes Jews look like the real owners of the land who by accepting the existence of religions which denounce/twist Torah Judaism are defilling the Torah Land. There is a good reason why Gerei Toshav can
only be Noahides, not Xtians nor Michael Jackson worshippers.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

If you think I am gay because I expose Eminem's gayness, then I think that you are the boyfriend of Wonga or Ron.

Bullcat must be praising the maturity of this crap.

[Rubystars]

Well that was uncalled for.

For the record I was speaking to Coon, who is antagonizing Jews constantly, but the comment could easily apply to you too with your recent behavior.

What? For telling the truth that Xmas being celebrated in Jewish Land as obscene? Well if you support a foreign holiday in Israel that worships idols then you don't support Israel as a Jewish state with Jewish laws. And I have never said that Xtians can't travel to Israel.

Just not in December right?

[Irish Zionist]

Just not in December right?

If they're prepared to sacrifice Xmas while in Israel, why should that be a problem?

[Rubystars]

Just not in December right?

If they're prepared to sacrifice Xmas while in Israel, why should that be a problem?

Not everyone celebrates the same way you know. Do you think they're in Israel in order to erect a giant New-York style Christmas tree? No... if they wanted that they'd visit New York for Christmas. They're in Israel visiting because it has spiritual meaning to them.

[nessuno]

Ruby don't you find how discusting this is? Jews celebrating Xmas in The Holy Land at Jewish Taxpayers expense!

I don't think that Israeli taxpayers should pay for this. If they're going to go on vacation to Israel, it should be private money funding it only. I just didn't like the tone of wonga's post.

Our religion forbids the existence of any other religion in the Land of Israel,
because it is a direct violation of the very reason the Jewish people were
created and why they have been given the Land of Israel to rule over.

When you say this we feel the same way you'd feel had we've been
breaking into your local church reciting what the Talmud says about
your "Messiah"/idol.

One day Ron Ben Michael you will grow up.  That was totally uncalled for. 
I feel very sorry for you.
I don't have to bash, question, or ridicule your faith.  Mostly because I'm very secure in my own. 
Is that how the Talmud tells you to act? 
I'm sad to see threads like this over and over again.
I'm sure it's turning good, and potential, members away.

You have the need to focus on my age and tell me to behave because you obviously don't like what I say.
You have a problem with Judaism's position - not my position - and you want to silent it because it's not
"politically incorrect" or polite to stand up for your faith. You think it's right for me to betray the principles of my faith because it does endanger your faith and it endagers your position on Jewish-Xtian co-operation.

Chaim, although he disagrees with me on co-operation with you, agrees with me that Xtianity is Idolatry according to Judaism. That's the Jewish position. He just says we should keep our differences apart and work together for what he calls "common goals". Chaim as a man of principles, same as I am, will not silence Judaism for the sake of public relations. If the Eminem lover calls this a Jewish version of Nazism, he must refer to Judaism and not only to me.

You are wrong Ron Ben Michael.
We are more alike then you think in some ways.  Very different in others.
I do stand up for my faith.  I try to be a good example of a decent person.
I'm not going to bash you over the head with my faith, on the forum, though.  It is not out of politeness or political correctness.  I do realize that this is not the correct forum for that.  I do not come here with the intent to proselytize.
I have never, purposefully, been disrespectful about Judaism.  Even though I'm secure in my faith.  I respect your religion, your faith and your conviction.  That is the difference.
Chaim is brilliant.  He is principled.   He is doing what is best for JTF in America.  I have great respect for him and his goals.  He doesn't have to have my same faith - for that to be. 
I'm not trying to silence you - Ron.  I won't say another word to you.
I just think you don't always consider what is best for JTF in America when you post.  Even when you are defending Judaism...as you should.
That is where the age comes into it.

I will not defend what other posters write.  I won't be lumped in with them either.

[Yaakov Mendel]

It is outrages that the very Halacha that Avodah Zara
should be eliminated from the Holy Land is debated and
not accepted.

Celebrate your holidays at home, not in the Holy Land.

But the biblical prohibition of Avodah Zara was written against pagans. Do you view Christians as pagans ?

Judaism clearly sees Xtianity as Paganism. Xtianity's realization of Divinity formed in Jesus, and the Trinity is Shituf. Also, basic principles and holidays of Xtianity and even its very symbol are originated in earlier Pagan religions. I can bring many sources if you want.

It is true that prominent sources of judaism, starting with the Rambam, view Christianity basically as paganism. You are right to point out that the doctrine of Trinity seems a compelling argument in that respect.