Confronting my boulshavic family

[The proud Jew]

What do I say to my family members that accuse me of being like a simon bar cochba? They accuse me with my ideologies that caused the exile. And what do i say to people that like to accuse us as being fascists  that hate democracy?

[Zelhar]

Say that resorting to name calling is a poor argument. I assume your ideology is one that seeks the survival of the Jewish people and not a blind attempt to create a Jewish empire at all costs.

[The proud Jew]

My ideologies is the same as rav kahanes for a strong jewish people. Thats why I joined jtf

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

What do I say to my family members that accuse me of being like a simon bar cochba? They accuse me with my ideologies that caused the exile. And what do i say to people that like to accuse us as being fascists  that hate democracy?

What's so bad about Shimon bar Kokhba?   He had Rabbi Akiva's support.   The Romans crushed the revolt but they almost won (at first, they were winning!).  Had they won, "bandwagon" people like these would be praising bar kochba to this day about how he eliminated the foreign roman dominion over us.  (Begin is somewhat of a modern-day parallel where his revolt against the British succeeded and say what you want about what he did afterwords in politics, but everyone jumped on the bandwagon because he's one of if not the most popular prime ministers and political figures in Israeli history).  

Unfortunately he (bar kokhba) lost but his intentions were good.   We have to be cautious about how we go about carrying out intentions like that, but how can people also vilify the good intentions of removing foreign dominion over our people?    They are throwing out the baby with the bathwater and losing the forest for the trees.   Yes, both of those expressions.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

You should ask them how they feel about menahem begin.

[Zelhar]

What do I say to my family members that accuse me of being like a simon bar cochba? They accuse me with my ideologies that caused the exile. And what do i say to people that like to accuse us as being fascists  that hate democracy?

What's so bad about Shimon bar Kokhba?   He had Rabbi Akiva's support.   The Romans crushed the revolt but they almost won (at first, they were winning!).  Had they won, "bandwagon" people like these would be praising bar kochba to this day about how he eliminated the foreign roman dominion over us.  (Begin is somewhat of a modern-day parallel where his revolt against the British succeeded and say what you want about what he did afterwords in politics, but everyone jumped on the bandwagon because he's one of if not the most popular prime ministers and political figures in Israeli history).  

Unfortunately he (bar kokhba) lost but his intentions were good.   We have to be cautious about how we go about carrying out intentions like that, but how can people also vilify the good intentions of removing foreign dominion over our people?    They are throwing out the baby with the bathwater and losing the forest for the trees.   Yes, both of those expressions.

Shimon bar Kokhba is ultimately considered a failure both in spiritually and operationally. His vanity was his undoing on both counts.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

What do I say to my family members that accuse me of being like a simon bar cochba? They accuse me with my ideologies that caused the exile. And what do i say to people that like to accuse us as being fascists  that hate democracy?

What's so bad about Shimon bar Kokhba?   He had Rabbi Akiva's support.   The Romans crushed the revolt but they almost won (at first, they were winning!).  Had they won, "bandwagon" people like these would be praising bar kochba to this day about how he eliminated the foreign roman dominion over us.  (Begin is somewhat of a modern-day parallel where his revolt against the British succeeded and say what you want about what he did afterwords in politics, but everyone jumped on the bandwagon because he's one of if not the most popular prime ministers and political figures in Israeli history).  

Unfortunately he (bar kokhba) lost but his intentions were good.   We have to be cautious about how we go about carrying out intentions like that, but how can people also vilify the good intentions of removing foreign dominion over our people?    They are throwing out the baby with the bathwater and losing the forest for the trees.   Yes, both of those expressions.

Shimon bar Kokhba is ultimately considered a failure both in spiritually and operationally. His vanity was his undoing on both counts.

Nonetheless, his intentions were good.   

And it's easy to make such judgments in retrospect.   If it was so obvious he would fail, he wouldn't have had so many supporters nor the endorsement of Talmudic sages.  And likewise if his spiritual flaws were so obvious beforehand, Rabbi Akiva wouldn't get behind him.      It's just something to point to afterwords as a reason maybe it failed, but it's silly to pretend that he was some kind of evil jerk with a chip on his shoulder.    I think it's a classic example of monday morning quarterbacking - And the Talmud does this for a reason - to caution people very carefully about similar actions which can endanger the whole yishuv or whole Jewish people if not carried out correctly ...

Hindsight is always 20/20.   I'm sure there were more rabbis than just Rabbi Akiva who supported Bar Kokhba.   Heck, most of the Talmudic sages younger than Rabbi Akiva were actually his students, and even the amoraim who later play the monday morning qb on this affair were also in a sense students of Rabbi Akiva as the tradition came to follow his path.

[Zelhar]

What do I say to my family members that accuse me of being like a simon bar cochba? They accuse me with my ideologies that caused the exile. And what do i say to people that like to accuse us as being fascists  that hate democracy?

What's so bad about Shimon bar Kokhba?   He had Rabbi Akiva's support.   The Romans crushed the revolt but they almost won (at first, they were winning!).  Had they won, "bandwagon" people like these would be praising bar kochba to this day about how he eliminated the foreign roman dominion over us.  (Begin is somewhat of a modern-day parallel where his revolt against the British succeeded and say what you want about what he did afterwords in politics, but everyone jumped on the bandwagon because he's one of if not the most popular prime ministers and political figures in Israeli history).  

Unfortunately he (bar kokhba) lost but his intentions were good.   We have to be cautious about how we go about carrying out intentions like that, but how can people also vilify the good intentions of removing foreign dominion over our people?    They are throwing out the baby with the bathwater and losing the forest for the trees.   Yes, both of those expressions.

Shimon bar Kokhba is ultimately considered a failure both in spiritually and operationally. His vanity was his undoing on both counts.

Nonetheless, his intentions were good.   

And it's easy to make such judgments in retrospect.   If it was so obvious he would fail, he wouldn't have had so many supporters nor the endorsement of Talmudic sages.  And likewise if his spiritual flaws were so obvious beforehand, Rabbi Akiva wouldn't get behind him.      It's just something to point to afterwords as a reason maybe it failed, but it's silly to pretend that he was some kind of evil jerk with a chip on his shoulder.    I think it's a classic example of monday morning quarterbacking - And the Talmud does this for a reason - to caution people very carefully about similar actions which can endanger the whole yishuv or whole Jewish people if not carried out correctly ...

Hindsight is always 20/20.   I'm sure there were more rabbis than just Rabbi Akiva who supported Bar Kokhba.   Heck, most of the Talmudic sages younger than Rabbi Akiva were actually his students, and even the amoraim who later play the monday morning qb on this affair were also in a sense students of Rabbi Akiva as the tradition came to follow his path.

I don't say he was a villain, just that we should learn from historical mistakes and so not repeat them.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

What do I say to my family members that accuse me of being like a simon bar cochba? They accuse me with my ideologies that caused the exile. And what do i say to people that like to accuse us as being fascists  that hate democracy?

What's so bad about Shimon bar Kokhba?   He had Rabbi Akiva's support.   The Romans crushed the revolt but they almost won (at first, they were winning!).  Had they won, "bandwagon" people like these would be praising bar kochba to this day about how he eliminated the foreign roman dominion over us.  (Begin is somewhat of a modern-day parallel where his revolt against the British succeeded and say what you want about what he did afterwords in politics, but everyone jumped on the bandwagon because he's one of if not the most popular prime ministers and political figures in Israeli history).  

Unfortunately he (bar kokhba) lost but his intentions were good.   We have to be cautious about how we go about carrying out intentions like that, but how can people also vilify the good intentions of removing foreign dominion over our people?    They are throwing out the baby with the bathwater and losing the forest for the trees.   Yes, both of those expressions.

Shimon bar Kokhba is ultimately considered a failure both in spiritually and operationally. His vanity was his undoing on both counts.

Nonetheless, his intentions were good.   

And it's easy to make such judgments in retrospect.   If it was so obvious he would fail, he wouldn't have had so many supporters nor the endorsement of Talmudic sages.  And likewise if his spiritual flaws were so obvious beforehand, Rabbi Akiva wouldn't get behind him.      It's just something to point to afterwords as a reason maybe it failed, but it's silly to pretend that he was some kind of evil jerk with a chip on his shoulder.    I think it's a classic example of monday morning quarterbacking - And the Talmud does this for a reason - to caution people very carefully about similar actions which can endanger the whole yishuv or whole Jewish people if not carried out correctly ...

Hindsight is always 20/20.   I'm sure there were more rabbis than just Rabbi Akiva who supported Bar Kokhba.   Heck, most of the Talmudic sages younger than Rabbi Akiva were actually his students, and even the amoraim who later play the monday morning qb on this affair were also in a sense students of Rabbi Akiva as the tradition came to follow his path.

I don't say he was a villain, just that we should learn from historical mistakes and so not repeat them.

So which mistake do you mean?   I am trying to assert that his intentions were good despite the disaster than ensued.   It is difficult - for anyone - to predict the future.

In fact, I strongly believe that the exact line of argument you are using or his family is using could have been used to oppose the Jewish underground.  They even had a failed arab revolt of 1936-39 to warn of their own impending failure - one didn't even need to look that far back in history to Bar Kokhba to assert why they would lose.   And yet, their revolt succeeded.   

[Zelhar]

What do I say to my family members that accuse me of being like a simon bar cochba? They accuse me with my ideologies that caused the exile. And what do i say to people that like to accuse us as being fascists  that hate democracy?

What's so bad about Shimon bar Kokhba?   He had Rabbi Akiva's support.   The Romans crushed the revolt but they almost won (at first, they were winning!).  Had they won, "bandwagon" people like these would be praising bar kochba to this day about how he eliminated the foreign roman dominion over us.  (Begin is somewhat of a modern-day parallel where his revolt against the British succeeded and say what you want about what he did afterwords in politics, but everyone jumped on the bandwagon because he's one of if not the most popular prime ministers and political figures in Israeli history).  

Unfortunately he (bar kokhba) lost but his intentions were good.   We have to be cautious about how we go about carrying out intentions like that, but how can people also vilify the good intentions of removing foreign dominion over our people?    They are throwing out the baby with the bathwater and losing the forest for the trees.   Yes, both of those expressions.

Shimon bar Kokhba is ultimately considered a failure both in spiritually and operationally. His vanity was his undoing on both counts.

Nonetheless, his intentions were good.   

And it's easy to make such judgments in retrospect.   If it was so obvious he would fail, he wouldn't have had so many supporters nor the endorsement of Talmudic sages.  And likewise if his spiritual flaws were so obvious beforehand, Rabbi Akiva wouldn't get behind him.      It's just something to point to afterwords as a reason maybe it failed, but it's silly to pretend that he was some kind of evil jerk with a chip on his shoulder.    I think it's a classic example of monday morning quarterbacking - And the Talmud does this for a reason - to caution people very carefully about similar actions which can endanger the whole yishuv or whole Jewish people if not carried out correctly ...

Hindsight is always 20/20.   I'm sure there were more rabbis than just Rabbi Akiva who supported Bar Kokhba.   Heck, most of the Talmudic sages younger than Rabbi Akiva were actually his students, and even the amoraim who later play the monday morning qb on this affair were also in a sense students of Rabbi Akiva as the tradition came to follow his path.

I don't say he was a villain, just that we should learn from historical mistakes and so not repeat them.

So which mistake do you mean?   I am trying to assert that his intentions were good despite the disaster than ensued.   It is difficult - for anyone - to predict the future.

In fact, I strongly believe that the exact line of argument you are using or his family is using could have been used to oppose the Jewish underground.  They even had a failed arab revolt of 1936-39 to warn of their own impending failure - one didn't even need to look that far back in history to Bar Kokhba to assert why they would lose.   And yet, their revolt succeeded.   

Chaim mentioned a couple of times some errors he made. He boasted that he doesn't need people to pray for his victory and he can win without god help. He kicked to death his uncle, a rabbi who confronted him. He asked candidates for his militia to severe one of their fingers as a show of bravery.

[The proud Jew]

Thanks for the info guys but My boulshavic family's arguement says We shouldve waited out the romans.

[Zelhar]

Thanks for the info guys but My boulshavic family's arguement says We shouldve waited out the romans.

Do they compare the Arabs to the Romans ? The Arabs never won a single war against Israel. But if they did, they would destroy Israel and exterminate the Jews living there. So how exactly can we wait out the Arabs ? Either we stand up and fight, or we flee out of Israel. Theses are the only two viable options. And the latter is also not so viable considering the assimilation that's going on in the diaspora, and the holocausts that we may yet suffer there.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Thanks for the info guys but My boulshavic family's arguement says We shouldve waited out the romans.

When some of our people wanted to "wait out" the british, 6 million fellow Jews were murdered in Europe, half of our homeland was portioned off for a saudi royal family (hashemites - "transjordan"), and thousands of arabs swarmed in from abroad to thwart zionism.  These arabs and their descendants aside from joining forces with the arab armies in the independence war, also rioted against Israel, fought against Israel and blew us up in buses and today pose the great demographic threat.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Chaim mentioned a couple of times some errors he made. He boasted that he doesn't need people to pray for his victory and he can win without G-d help. He kicked to death his uncle, a rabbi who confronted him. He asked candidates for his militia to severe one of their fingers as a show of bravery.

When people make comparisons with Bar Kokhba and especially the context of this discussion, with proud Jew's family calling him "like bar kokhba," they are speaking about the overall idea of jewish pride and dignity and it is really that which they are against.   Not these various flaws this individual once had in his personality many years ago or his lack of sufficient piety.   They are against the idea of Jews standing up against their tormentors and asserting national autonomy. 

[The proud Jew]

Thanks guys for the great info.

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

What do I say to my family members that accuse me of being like a simon bar cochba? They accuse me with my ideologies that caused the exile. And what do i say to people that like to accuse us as being fascists  that hate democracy?

Even if you stand alone in a room with 10,000 Jews who are opposed to Kahanism [real Torah Judaism] you are still the overwhelming majority, for you stand shoulder to shoulder with millions, and millions of martyred Jews from thorough thousands of years of in our history who wish for their deaths to not be in vain, for all Jews should remember what happened to our people in the past, for today's Jews to not repeat the mistakes of the martyred, for Jews to choose life and for Jews to protect themselves from this generation's murderous Judenhassers.


The Exile was caused by 'Sinat Chinam' [senseless hatred of one Jew to another].  Perhaps the most important philosophy of Kahanism is 'Ahavat Yisroel' [love from every Jew extended to every Jew; anywhere a Jew suffers in the world we feel it everywhere and do what we can to eliminate our brother and sister Jews misery]. -- What caused the Exhile could not be more diametrically opposed to Kahanism.

The ideology which is called Fascism was created by a Left wing extremist who was a favored student of Vladamir Lenin [Benito Mussolini]. -- Kahanism is a Right-wing ideology. -- When it comes down to it, Nazism is another Left wing extremist philosophy [National Socialist Workers Party]... created by Adolf Hitler [YS"V], it was an adaptation of Marxism [Hitler [YS"V] himself equated Nazism to be a pragmatic and realistic form of Marxism!][I would not drop the "Nazi bomb" on a fellow Jew offensively, only because it may shut down dialogue, however if a fellow Jew drops the "Nazi bomb" on us it is good to know that Nazism is a derivative of Marxism; it is nearly as funny as it is a grievous error for people to pretend Nazism was a Right-wing philosophy].

http://tim.2wgroup.com/blog/archives/000400.html
^Hitler [YS"V] was a Leftist extremist.  The quotations on this page are quite telling, and the articles linked on the page are also worth reading.


Kahanism is pro-democracy, sensibly done in accord with Judaism.  Of course the Muslims and any non-Jew cannot vote in E"Y under Kahanism, but ANYONE can choose to convert to Judaism and become, "as Jewish as Kahane" [as stated by our Rebbe].  In addition, Muslims have more rights in Israel than anywhere else in the Middle East [bar none!]. -- Anti-Kahanists seem to be upset that Arabs would no longer have more rights than Jews do in Israel [look who controls the Temple Mount, look who is allowed to kill Jews only to escape Jewish style punishment, look who the IDF are not allowed to reprimand for lawlessness while having free reign to beat up on fellow Jews for obeying Halakcha... etc...].  Anti-Kahanists seem to always be concerned that Kahanists would put an end to Muslim Nazi Arabs voting in Muslim Nazi Arab politicians who seek to destroy Israel and the Jewish people [Kahanism, being opposed to this, can only be considered to be common sense!].

[The proud Jew]

ari very true on all points but the majority of israeli jews do agree with us and meir kahane. Which is why i think rav kahanes book will be very sucessfull along with the comic book series

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

Just for the record, Bar Cochva's Fourth Philosophy rebellion didn't cause the Exile. The Sinat Chinam along with the fact that he murdered Jews he suspected to be Maslhinim (informers) and his demand to put G-d in the side (not intefere neither positively nor negatively) - just like the "secular" Jews of today, caused it.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Just for the record, Bar Cochva's Fourth Philosophy rebellion didn't cause the Exile. The Sinat Chinam along with the fact that he murdered Jews he suspected to be Maslhinim (informers) and his demand to put G-d in the side (not intefere neither positively nor negatively) - just like the "secular" Jews of today, caused it.

If they are really informers, what else can an underground movement do with them?

What do you mean by "Fourth Philosophy" ?

[muman613]

Just for the record, Bar Cochva's Fourth Philosophy rebellion didn't cause the Exile. The Sinat Chinam along with the fact that he murdered Jews he suspected to be Maslhinim (informers) and his demand to put G-d in the side (not intefere neither positively nor negatively) - just like the "secular" Jews of today, caused it.

If they are really informers, what else can an underground movement do with them?

What do you mean by "Fourth Philosophy" ?

I have found mention of it in relation to the-j-man..

http://www.tzemachdovid.org/israel/feldman.shtml

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What emerges, however, is that Jesus was a political rebel, and that is why he was crucified. And that is why the inscription on the cross - the wording is a little bit different in all four gospels - "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews." He tried to establish an independent state as Messiah. At one point, we hear a band of soldiers and their captain and the officers of the Jews seize him with weapons. And what do you mean, "seize him with weapons"?

Why would a band of soldiers be needed to seize Jesus? It sounds rather that the Romans suspected that there is somebody who's trying to promote a revolution, like the fourth philosophy that Josephus talks about. That therefore they had to seize him before he actually carried it out. Remember, the other two who are crucified with him are crucified as "leistai." Now, "leistai" in the Talmudic language are robbers, but they're not robbers. These people are revolutionaries. Jesus is a revolutionary. You can see that he's a political figure from the fact that Jesus says to his disciples, "Whoever has no sword, let him sell his mantle and buy one."
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[Manch]

No self-respecting Jew would or should be saying disrespectful thinks about this giant of Jewish history!

If I was compared to Shimon bar Kochba, that would be the best compliment! Most of modern Jews , put together, with rare exceptions, do not deserve to shine bar Kochba's sandals. Bar Kochba is one of the greatest Jewish leaders of all time, along with HaRav Akiva and HaRav Kahane. Sure Bar Kochba had his shortcomings, but he fought and sacrificed for the sanctity of G-d's name and for the liberty of Jewish people. And I am not 100% certain that the defeat was majorly caused by challenges in the Bar Kochba's personality. Perhaps it was pre-ordained. Perhaps that generation of Jews did not deserve the messiah - only a minority of Jews united around the revolt. It is tough to think that a tiny revolt could defeat the superpower on a small terrain, without the liberty of broad maneuver.

Bar Kochba, along with Joshua, king David, is a symbol of Jewish military prowess and heroism and was a light of hope,  the source of pride to Jewish people through the last horrible two millenniums.


Just mine opinion.