Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Questions about Judaism
muman613:
Judaism, as the Torah proscribes, is strictly passed through the Mother {matrilineal descent}.
This is clearly spelled out in the Torah and only those sects which did not accept the Oral law disregard matrilineal descent.
As I stated above, in the case of Abrahams sons Isaac and Ishmael.... Ishmael was not Jewish because his mother was an Egyptian... Also the commandment which relates to intermarriage says that a child born to an Israelite man, from a non-Jewish woman, will not be considered a Jew.
--- Quote ---http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/8/Q1/
Dear Rabbi,
I recently had a conversation with a Reform acquaintance of mine who told me that they accept patrilineal descent in determining Jewishness. I know that Judaism only accepts matrilineal descent, but what are the sources on this matter so that I can be more informed at further discussions?
Dear J.,
First of all, let's explain what Judaism uses as the source for Matrilineal descent. The Mishna in Kiddushin 66b states that if a child's mother is not Jewish, then the child is "like her," (i.e., not Jewish). This Halacha is codified in the Shulchan Aruch, Even HaEzer 8:5, without mention of any dissenting opinion. No source in the Torah teaches otherwise, and this question has never been raised in any classical Halachic text. It is an obvious and accepted axiom given to us at Sinai.
What happened in the Reform movement? For reasons know to them, they decided to "change the rules" regarding patrilineal descent. Since they did not feel bound to the Halacha, or even the literal Written Law, the Torah, they felt justified in doing this. Since Reform Judaism "plays by different rules," it makes it difficult-if not impossible-to debate patrilineal descent with them.
Clearly, we are discussing this question based on purely Halachic considerations, and therefore our discussion is not to be confused with the more political issue of "Who is a Jew?" regarding that person's status in Israel.
Source:
* Mishna, Tractate Kiddushin page 66b
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---http://www.torah.org/qanda/seequanda.php?id=318
What is the source of the law that a child is Jewish only if its mother is Jewish?
The statement that Jewish identity is determined by the mother is found in the Mishnah (Kiddushin 3:12), which says that the child of a gentile woman is like her. The Talmud derives this from the passage in Deut. 7:3-4: "Do not intermarry with [him], do not give your daughter to his son or take his daughter for your son, for he will turn your son from Me": A child born to your daughter (fathered by a non-Jew) is called "your son", but a child born to your son (by a non-Jewish mother) is not called "your son", but "her son". The Talmud is assuming here that the "he" in Deut.7:4 is your gentile son-in-law, and that "your son" whom "he" will turn away from G-d is your grandson, born to him and to your daughter. The Torah calls that grandson "your son" because he is regarded as Jewish since he had a Jewish mother. In the other case, where a Jewish man marries a gentile woman, the Torah doesn't speak about the woman's influence on her children (i.e., it doesn't say "for she will turn your son from me"), because her children are non-Jewish to begin with since their mother is non-Jewish. Apparently we are more concerned about the influence of a non-Jewish spouse on the children than about the influence of a non-Jewish spouse's parents on their children-in-law. The Talmud (Kiddushin 68b) asks how we know that these laws apply to any non-Jews, since the cited verse refers to the Canaanites. The answer given there is that "he will turn your son [away from Me]" implies that all those who might turn [sons] away are included in the prohibition.
--- End quote ---
More References:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/601092/jewish/Why-is-Jewishness-matrilineal.htm
Harzel:
--- Quote from: muman613 on November 22, 2010, 05:27:11 PM ---Regarding the Talmud...
The Talmud is considered a part of the Torah according to Orthodox Judaism. There is no separating the two. We believe that there are two parts of the Torah, both of them given over to Moses and the Children of Israel at Mount Sinai. These two parts are referred to as:
Torah she'bichsav - The Written Torah (Tanach = Torah Naviim Ketuvim)
Torah Baal Peh - The Oral Torah (Talmud, Midrash, Gemara, etc.)
--- End quote ---
Now You are being inaccurate at the least. The Talmud was sealed by the Jews for hundreds of years after the Tanakh had been sealed. The Torah and the Oral Torah were brought down by God in mount Sinai to Moses. But the Talmud was written by men, while not a single letter of the Torah was ever changed from the perfect version we were given by GOD. The oral Torah was eventually written down in the form of the Talmud but clearly it is just its essence and not the original transcript from Sinai.
muman613:
--- Quote from: Zelhar on November 23, 2010, 02:15:54 AM ---
--- Quote from: muman613 on November 22, 2010, 05:27:11 PM ---Regarding the Talmud...
The Talmud is considered a part of the Torah according to Orthodox Judaism. There is no separating the two. We believe that there are two parts of the Torah, both of them given over to Moses and the Children of Israel at Mount Sinai. These two parts are referred to as:
Torah she'bichsav - The Written Torah (Tanach = Torah Naviim Ketuvim)
Torah Baal Peh - The Oral Torah (Talmud, Midrash, Gemara, etc.)
--- End quote ---
Now You are being inaccurate at the least. The Talmud was sealed by the Jews for hundreds of years after the Tanakh had been sealed. The Torah and the Oral Torah were brought down by G-d in mount Sinai to Moses. But the Talmud was written by men, while not a single letter of the Torah was ever changed from the perfect version we were given by G-d. The oral Torah was eventually written down in the form of the Talmud but clearly it is just its essence and not the original transcript from Sinai.
--- End quote ---
I have been accurate according to Orthodox belief. We believe that the entire Torah, including both the Written and the Oral laws were given at Sinai. It is true that the Oral law was not written down till after the destruction of the Second Temple, but the belief is that the Talmud {including all the machlokes and details} was given at Sinai.
http://www.messiahtruth.com/orallaw.html
--- Quote ---The oral law is quite real. It came down from Sinai with Moses. The Written Torah tells us to do things, but the Oral Torah tells us HOW to do those things.
--- End quote ---
http://www.torah.org/learning/lifeline/5764/behar.html
--- Quote ---The Oral Law
"And G-d spoke to Moshe at Mt. Sinai, saying, Speak to the Children of Israel and say to them, that when they come into the land that I am giving them, they shall rest the land, a Sabbath to HaShem." [25:1-2]
The Torah is teaching the laws of Shmittah, the sabbatical of the land. Every seven years the Israelites were instructed to leave the land lying fallow for a year.
As Rashi tells us, the Medrash asks a question about the way this law is introduced. Why does it say that G-d spoke to Moshe "at Mt. Sinai" in this case? Moshe was told all the laws of the Torah at Sinai!
The Medrash explains that Shmittah is an example. Yes, it was taught with all of its generalities, specifics, and implications at Sinai -- and so was everything else. The entirety of the Oral Law was taught to Moshe on Sinai.
We know that there must be an Oral Law because of all of the gaps in our knowledge that remain after reading the Written Torah from beginning to end, from Bereishes to l'eynei kol Yisrael. The Torah introduces things as important as resting on the Sabbath, and fails to describe what that entails. It talks about "frontlets" between our eyes, gives apparently contradictory instructions, and yet expects the Jewish Nation to follow the rules -- clearly, there was more given at Sinai than just the written Word.
.
.
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--- End quote ---
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/812102/jewish/What-is-the-Oral-Torah.htm
--- Quote ---What is the "Oral Torah"?
By Naftali Silberberg
The Torah has two parts: The "Torah Shebichtav" (Written Law), which is composed of the twenty-four books of the Tanach, and the "Torah Sheba'al Peh" (Oral Law).
G‑d told Moses1 that he will give him "the Torah and the commandments." Why did G‑d add the word "commandments?" Are there any commandments which are not included in the Torah? This verse (amongst others) is a clear inference to the existence of the Oral Torah.
Originally the Oral Law was not transcribed. Instead it was transmitted from father to son and from teacher to disciple (thus the name "Oral" Law). Approximately 1800 years ago, Rabbi Judah the Prince concluded that because of all the travails of Exile, the Oral Law would be forgotten if it would not be recorded on paper. He, therefore, assembled the scholars of his generation and compiled the Mishnah, a (shorthanded) collection of all the oral teachings that preceded him. Since then, the Oral Law has ceased to be "oral" and as time passed more and more of the previously oral tradition was recorded.
The Oral Law consists of three components:
1. Laws Given to Moses at Sinai (Halachah L'Moshe M'Sinai):
When Moses went up to heaven to receive the Torah, G‑d gave him the Written Torah together with many instructions. These instructions are called "Halachah L'Moshe M'Sinai" (the Law that was given to Moses on Sinai). Maimonides writes that it is impossible for there to be an argument or disagreement concerning a Halachah L'Moshe M'Sinai, for the Jews who heard the instructions from Moses implemented them into their daily lives and passed it on to their children, who passed it on to their children, etc.
Some examples of Halachah L'Moshe M'Sinai are: tefillin straps must be black, a sukkah must have at least two and a half walls, and all the different Halachic measurements and sizes.
2. The Thirteen Principles of Torah Exegesis (Shlosh Esreh Middot ShehaTorah Nidreshet Bahem):
When G‑d gave the Written Law to Moses he also instructed him how one is to study and understand the Torah. Every word and letter in the Torah is exact, and many laws can be extrapolated from an extra (or missing) word or letter, or a particular sequence which the Torah chooses to use. The thirteen principles which are the keys to uncovering the secrets of the Torah are called the "Shlosh Esreh Middot ShehaTorah Nidreshet Bahem."
For instance: One of the rules is: "Anything that was included in a general statement, but was removed from the general statement in order to teach something, was not removed to teach only about itself, but to apply its teaching to the entire generality." An example for the usage of this rule is: In Exodus 35:3 the Torah says "You shall not light fire in any of your dwellings on the Shabbat day." Now, kindling a fire was already included in the general statement that prohibits work on Shabbat (Exodus 20:10). It was removed from the general rule and stated independently in this verse to teach us that it is a distinct form of work and, as such, carries a distinct penalty. Moreover, this lesson applies to each of the 39 categories of work included in the general statement. Thus, there isn't a broad category called "work," rather each type of work is to be viewed as distinct. Therefore, if someone should do several kinds of work while unaware that they are forbidden on Shabbat, he must bring a separate sin-offering to atone for each type of work that he did.
A full list of the thirteen principles can be found in the prayer-book.2
--- End quote ---
PS: I did not suggest that the Talmud was written down at the time the Tanakh was written... That I never said... I said that the Oral law was given at Sinai...
Harzel:
Muman, If the Talmud was brought down along with the Torah, then why do we find there generations of sages like Hillel and Shamai and Rabbi Akiva etc. debating and discussing things.
What was given to Moshe was indeed what we call "halach lemoshe mesinai" but that is not the Talmud. The Talmud contains it in some form though. But unlike the written Torah you cannot say the oral Torah is as intact as the day it was brought down.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: Zelhar on November 23, 2010, 02:15:54 AM ---
--- Quote from: muman613 on November 22, 2010, 05:27:11 PM ---Regarding the Talmud...
The Talmud is considered a part of the Torah according to Orthodox Judaism. There is no separating the two. We believe that there are two parts of the Torah, both of them given over to Moses and the Children of Israel at Mount Sinai. These two parts are referred to as:
Torah she'bichsav - The Written Torah (Tanach = Torah Naviim Ketuvim)
Torah Baal Peh - The Oral Torah (Talmud, Midrash, Gemara, etc.)
--- End quote ---
Now You are being inaccurate at the least. The Talmud was sealed by the Jews for hundreds of years after the Tanakh had been sealed. The Torah and the Oral Torah were brought down by G-d in mount Sinai to Moses. But the Talmud was written by men, while not a single letter of the Torah was ever changed from the perfect version we were given by G-d. The oral Torah was eventually written down in the form of the Talmud but clearly it is just its essence and not the original transcript from Sinai.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, have to agree. Many new decisions made by the judges over time got incorporated into the corpus - and that was their job to do so, in addition to preserving what general guidelines were given over at Sinai.
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