Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Questions about Judaism
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
It makes zero sense to say "The Talmud" was given at Har Sinai. It simply wasn't. If it was, then there is no point to an Oral Torah. It's just two written Torahs but one is memorized instead of jotted down. That defeats the whole purpose of an oral law and oral Torah. The whole point is that the system is flexible and evolving, while on the contrary, the written Torah is "set in stone" and all the Oral Torah discussions must adhere to the precepts and boundaries set forth in the written Torah.
"The Talmud" represents a compilation of Oral Torah over many centuries and then frozen in time (the time that the Talmud was sealed - most scholars seem to agree around the early 10th century) with a set corpus put into writing. This was hundreds of years after Tanakh was written and sealed.
muman613:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on November 23, 2010, 02:38:31 PM ---It makes zero sense to say "The Talmud" was given at Har Sinai. It simply wasn't. If it was, then there is no point to an Oral Torah. It's just two written Torahs but one is memorized instead of jotted down. That defeats the whole purpose of an oral law and oral Torah. The whole point is that the system is flexible and evolving, while on the contrary, the written Torah is "set in stone" and all the Oral Torah discussions must adhere to the precepts and boundaries set forth in the written Torah.
"The Talmud" represents a compilation of Oral Torah over many centuries and then frozen in time (the time that the Talmud was sealed - most scholars seem to agree around the early 10th century) with a set corpus put into writing. This was hundreds of years after Tanakh was written and sealed.
--- End quote ---
The whole point is that the Torah is the truth, it contains everything that happened, is happening, and will happen.
There is no reason to not believe that the Talmud machlokes would be known by Moses ahead of time, as told by Hashem when he was given the Oral law.
I don't believe that there is an argument about this. I have never seen any Orthodox Rabbi say anything which contradicts this basic belief that both Torahs were given at the same time.
There is even a pasuk in the Torah which alludes to the Oral law being given at the same time. How could there not exist an Oral law at the same time as the giving of the written law? Explain to us how we should know what Tefillin are? How about Mezzuzah? There is no instruction in the written Torah concerning these commandments? Do you suggest for those centuries we just made it up as we went along, making things we though were tefillin but since the Talmud was not written they did not know? That is just ridiculous in my thinking...
The Oral law existed at the time Moses came down from Sinai. Even the different opinions of the sages were known at that time..
Here are some answers to your 'questions'...
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/beacons-on-the-talmud-sea/01.htm
--- Quote ---Out Of The One, Many
The Talmud[1] states:
It is written:[2] "The words of the wise are like spurs, and like nails well driven in are [the words of] the masters of collections; they are given from one Shepherd...."
"The masters of collections" - these are the students of the Sages who sit in different groups and engage themselves in Torah study. Some will rule [that an object is] impure, and others will rule [that it is pure]. Some will declare [an object] unacceptable, and others will declare [it] acceptable.
If a person will ask: "How is it possible for me to study the Torah under such circumstances?" - the verse continues: "[These words] were given from one Shepherd." One G-d gave them, and one master[3] communicated them.
The concept of variety and difference within the Torah is also reflected in our Sages' account of the very source of our Torah heritage, the communication of the Oral Law to Moshe on Mount Sinai. Our Sages relate:[4]
On each law, [the Holy One, blessed be He,] would teach [Moshe] 49 perspectives [leading to the ruling that an object is] impure, and 49 perspectives [leading to the ruling that it is] pure.
Moshe exclaimed: "Master of the World, when will I be able to reach the clarification of these matters?"
The Holy One, blessed be He, told him: "Follow the majority.[5] If the majority rules that it is impure, it is impure. If the majority rules that it is pure, it is pure."
The Torah is spiritual truth, existing on a level above worldly existence.[6] And yet, it is not intended to remain on that lofty plane, but rather to descend and relate to our experience in this world. Nevertheless, because it is lofty and abstract, this process of descent leads to a variety of conceptions. As pure light takes on many colors when filtered through a prism, so too, as the Torah's truth comes in contact with material existence, different perspectives arise. For the same principle can motivate two opposite conclusions.
To cite an example: Before the Flood,[7] "G-d saw that... every impulse of the thoughts of [man's] heart was only for evil... And G-d said, 'I will obliterate mankind.' " After the Flood, when Noach offered sacrifices, G-d said:[8] "I will not continue to curse the earth, because of man, for the impulse of man's heart is evil." One factor, the yetzer hara's constant temptation of man, serves as the rationale calling for both the Flood, and for G-d's promise never to repeat such disasters.
In a similar way, each of the Tannaim and Amoraim would view the Torah's laws as they exist in their spiritual source. Nevertheless, to determine a ruling regarding a particular situation, a Sage would have to sift through the relevant legal principles and apply them to the circumstances at hand. And for every Sage, this process of analysis was guided by the thrust of his spiritual personality. As his awareness of the spiritual motivation for the law became intertwined with his appreciation of the germane factors, the Sage's decision would shape and form.
Often the decisions reached by the Sages would differ, for the processes of determination that characterized one would vary from that of the other. And with regard to these differences, it is said:[9] "These and these are the words of the living G-d." For the truth of Torah contains the potential for manifold expressions. This dictum was applied, however, only in the realm of theory. With regard to practice, the Torah tradition has always sought uniformity,[10] and when differences of opinion arise, the halachah is established according to the majority.[11]
Introspection And Outreach
The above concepts apply not only with regard to the Oral Tradition as a whole, but with regard to particular phases in its transmission. For example, Hillel and Shammai received the Oral Tradition from the same masters, Shemayah and Avtalyon.[12] Nevertheless, they - and to a greater extent, their students - developed these thoughts in different directions. And thus throughout the Talmud, we find differences of opinion between the School of Shammai and the School of Hillel.
In most instances, the School of Hillel would rule more leniently and the School of Shammai more stringently. What was the source for these differences?[13] Hillel's approach was characterized by the attribute of Chesed, kindness, while Shammai's was distinguished by the attribute of Gevurah, might, which tends toward severity.
Gevurah has an inward thrust, as reflected in our Sages' statement:[14] "Who is a gibbor (mighty man)? One who conquers his inclination." And according to the Kabbalah, the attribute of Gevurah is identified with din, judgment. A person who tends toward Gevurah has unalterable standards of truth to which he personally endeavors to conform and which he desires to see reflected in the world at large. This is implied by the name Shammai, which relates to the Hebrew phrase:[15] hasham orchosov, "He evaluates his ways,"[16] i.e., he is constantly subjecting his conduct to rigorous introspection.
Chesed, by contrast, reflects an outward orientation. Others are one's primary concern. A person motivated by chesed extends himself and gives, following the path Hillel outlines,[17] "Loving peace and pursuing peace; loving the created beings[18] and drawing them close to the Torah." This approach also relates to Hillel's name which is associated with the phrase behilo neiro,15 "When His candle shined forth."[19] For this approach emphasizes disseminating light, with the expectation that it will effortlessly cause darkness to shrink. And as light diffuses into wider peripheries, it attracts people and motivates them to change.
--- End quote ---
Harzel:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on November 23, 2010, 02:38:31 PM ---It makes zero sense to say "The Talmud" was given at Har Sinai. It simply wasn't. If it was, then there is no point to an Oral Torah. It's just two written Torahs but one is memorized instead of jotted down. That defeats the whole purpose of an oral law and oral Torah. The whole point is that the system is flexible and evolving, while on the contrary, the written Torah is "set in stone" and all the Oral Torah discussions must adhere to the precepts and boundaries set forth in the written Torah.
"The Talmud" represents a compilation of Oral Torah over many centuries and then frozen in time (the time that the Talmud was sealed - most scholars seem to agree around the early 10th century) with a set corpus put into writing. This was hundreds of years after Tanakh was written and sealed.
--- End quote ---
I think you managed to say it better than I did.
Muman, Judaism is a sensible religion. Go and ask rabbis and see what they tell you. Sure Rabbis would all tell you that the oral Torah was given in Sinai. But they won't just say that the Talmud is (as in exactly equal to) the oral Torah.
muman613:
--- Quote from: Zelhar on November 23, 2010, 03:48:52 PM ---
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on November 23, 2010, 02:38:31 PM ---It makes zero sense to say "The Talmud" was given at Har Sinai. It simply wasn't. If it was, then there is no point to an Oral Torah. It's just two written Torahs but one is memorized instead of jotted down. That defeats the whole purpose of an oral law and oral Torah. The whole point is that the system is flexible and evolving, while on the contrary, the written Torah is "set in stone" and all the Oral Torah discussions must adhere to the precepts and boundaries set forth in the written Torah.
"The Talmud" represents a compilation of Oral Torah over many centuries and then frozen in time (the time that the Talmud was sealed - most scholars seem to agree around the early 10th century) with a set corpus put into writing. This was hundreds of years after Tanakh was written and sealed.
--- End quote ---
I think you managed to say it better than I did.
Muman, Judaism is a sensible religion. Go and ask rabbis and see what they tell you. Sure Rabbis would all tell you that the oral Torah was given in Sinai. But they won't just say that the Talmud is (as in exactly equal to) the oral Torah.
--- End quote ---
Are you implying that what I am saying is not sensible? That is humorous...
I have not seen a single Rabbi claim what you are. I have found so many sources which repeat, over and over again, the concept that Oral Law was given at Sinai. And the Talmud is the compilation of the Oral Law which was written down after the 2nd Temple was destroyed.
I will bring one more source {although I doubt you will even read it} which supports what I am saying... I don't know why you {or anyone} would argue with such a basic concept as this {other than to be contradictory}
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/190,104/What-are-the-Mishnah-and-Talmud.html
--- Quote ---What are the Mishnah and Talmud?
A. The Torah--i.e. the Five Books of Moses--is very vague. For instance, the Torah says not to “work” on Shabbat. But what’s “work?” To answer this and many other questions (like how to slaughter an animal in the kosher way, what tefillin are), G-d explained the entire Torah to Moses. Moses then explained the entire Torah to the people orally. This explanation is therefore called the Oral Torah, since it was transmitted by word of mouth and was not written down.
B. The Oral Torah was taught mouth-to-ear, mouth-to-ear, through the generations until the 2nd Century C.E., at which point the sages felt that it would be forgotten unless it was written down. Rabbi Judah the Prince indeed went ahead and compiled the basics into a 63 volume document called the Mishnah. The Mishnah was taught in schools through the generations, with an accompanying oral explanation. In the 5th Century C.E., it became too vast and confusing for people to understand, and the oral explanation was written down in a massive collection that dwarfs the Mishnah. This explanation is known as the Gemara, and together they - the Mishnah with its Gemara commentary - form the Talmud.
C. The 63 volumes of the Mishnah are divided into six sections, each one on a different area of Jewish life: Agriculture, Shabbat and Holidays, Family Relations, Civil Law, Temple Sacrifices and Ritual Purity. Thirty eight volumes of the Mishnah have accompanying Gemara commentary, making them Talmudic Tractates. The Talmud thus consists of huge books crammed with densely packed Aramaic, an ancient Semitic language that uses the Hebrew alphabet. The Talmud follows the six-section structure of the Mishnah.
How do I study Talmud?
1. Study with a partner or with a class
OK, you’ve decided to study Talmud on your own, with your brand-new English-language version. Now, you’re cruising through the third page, and you get stuck—something doesn’t make sense. The commentaries help, but not completely—what do you do? To preempt this problem, The Rabbis instituted what might be called the “buddy system”—always studying Torah, and particularly the intricate, challenging Talmud—with a partner. Better yet, go to a Talmud class—you’ll learn even more and meet people who share your avid interest in Talmud, too. Chances are your local Chabad center offers one.
2. Remember what you’re doing
The Talmud is not just an engrossing exposition of Jewish law and lore—it’s part and parcel of the Torah. In other words, it’s not just another book—it’s a Jewish book. When you study Talmud, remember that you’re studying Torah, Divine wisdom.
--- End quote ---
PS: BTW all my Rabbis (I know 3 Chabad & 2 Modern Orthodox) tell me that the Talmud is a part of the Torah, the Oral tradition...
muman613:
http://www.jewishamerica.com/ja/timeline/torahs2.cfm
The Two Torahs
The Written Torah consists of the Five Books Of Moses. They are directly transmitted letter for letter to Moses from G-d.
Additional scriptures are authored by the Prophets during the thousand years that follow Sinai. The collection of these works becomes known as the Bible. The Biblical period ends some three-hundred years before the Common Era, when the Men Of The Great Assembly decree that there are to be no more additions.[Oral & Written Torah]
The Oral Torah, also transmitted to Moses on Sinai, defines and elaborates upon the behavior and values that the Written Torah prescribes. It provides keys and approaches with which one can read and understand the Written Torah, to be able to derive the expected behavior and values. This capability of derivation provides the Oral Torah with its infinite dimension.
The Written and Oral Torahs together provide Mankind with a set of formal and detailed instructions for living.
Without the Oral Torah, the Written Torah will be misunderstood and thereby misused, distorted by individuals for personal advantage or out of sheer ignorance.
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/torah.htm#Talmud
Talmud
In addition to the written scriptures we have an "Oral Torah", a tradition explaining what the Five Books of Moses mean and how to interpret them and apply the Laws. Orthodox Jews believe G-d taught the Oral Torah to Moses, and he taught it to others, and others taught it to others down to the present day. This tradition was maintained in oral form only until about the 2d century C.E., when much of the oral law was compiled and written down in a document called the Mishnah.
Over the next few centuries, authoritative commentaries elaborating on the Mishnah and recording the rest of the oral law were written down in Israel and Babylon. These additional commentaries are known as the Tosefta, Mekhileta, Sifra, Sifre, Jerusalem Talmud, and Babylonian Talmud. The last was completed at about 500 C.E.
The two largest works are the Jerusalem Talmud and the Babylonian Talmud. The Babylonian one is more comprehensive, and is the one most people mean when they refer to The Talmud.
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