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Offline Secularbeliever

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Torah question, the death of Esau
« on: December 19, 2010, 01:48:24 AM »
Long ago I read the account of the death of Esau in which he starts an argument with Jacob's children and grandchildren as to whether Jacob could be buried at the Cave of Machpela.  As the discussion procedes one of Jacob's grandsons who was deaf, at some point demands to know why Jacob has not been buried yet.  It is explained to him that Esau has refused to allow the burial and that they were going to send one of the family to Egypt to get the deed to the Cave.  The grandson is infuriated and slays Esau.

I discussed this with my Orthodox Israeli friend, whose main reaction was surprise that I was aware of this account.  He told me it is not in the Torah and I did not understand exactly what it is.  Is is a legend, a historical account outside of Torah?  Could one of our Torah scholars help me out on this?  I guess this grandson could have been a Kahanist of his day.
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Offline muman613

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Re: Torah question, the death of Esau
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2010, 01:59:21 AM »
Long ago I read the account of the death of Esau in which he starts an argument with Jacob's children and grandchildren as to whether Jacob could be buried at the Cave of Machpela.  As the discussion procedes one of Jacob's grandsons who was deaf, at some point demands to know why Jacob has not been buried yet.  It is explained to him that Esau has refused to allow the burial and that they were going to send one of the family to Egypt to get the deed to the Cave.  The grandson is infuriated and slays Esau.

I discussed this with my Orthodox Israeli friend, whose main reaction was surprise that I was aware of this account.  He told me it is not in the Torah and I did not understand exactly what it is.  Is is a legend, a historical account outside of Torah?  Could one of our Torah scholars help me out on this?  I guess this grandson could have been a Kahanist of his day.

This is according to the midrash... This is the Oral Torah which was not written until after the desctruction of the second temple {almost 2000 years ago}...

http://www.chabad.org/special/israel/points_of_interest_cdo/aid/588225/jewish/Cave-of-the-Patriarchs.htm

Quote
According to Midrashic sources, when Jacob died, Esau tried to stop Jacob’s sons from burying their father in the Cave of Machpelah. While fleet-footed Naftali ran to Egypt to retrieve the deed to Machpelah in order to prove their ownership, Dan’s deaf-and-dumb son, Hushim, saw the commotion and cut off Esau’s head. It rolled into the cave and came to rest in the bosom of his father Isaac, where it remains buried till today.

Essau was Jacobs brother we was insanely jealous that Jacob received the blessing on the firstborn {which he had purchased from Essau for a bowl of pottage}... In a way we consider the fact the Essaus head is buried in the Cave of Machpela along with all the Patriarchs and Matriachs is a sign that at least a part of him was meritorious. I don't think any Ishmaelites were buried along with Abraham and the others...



You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Secularbeliever

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Re: Torah question, the death of Esau
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2010, 12:03:00 PM »
Could you explan the oral Torah a bit more? Was that revealed to Jews at Sinai but just in record by way of discussion for over 1 thousand years?
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Offline muman613

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Re: Torah question, the death of Esau
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2010, 03:47:36 PM »
Could you explan the oral Torah a bit more? Was that revealed to Jews at Sinai but just in record by way of discussion for over 1 thousand years?

Hello SecularBeliever,

Rather than explain in my own words I will refer to Aish.com's wonderfully informative Jewish site. There is a wealth of information regarding Jewish history and Jewish thought.



http://www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/48948646.html

In a time of chaos, the sages do the unprecedented and write down the Oral Law.

At various times during the Hadrian persecutions, the sages were forced into hiding, though they managed to reconvene at Usha in 122 CE, and then in a time of quiet managed to re-establish again at Yavneh in 158 CE.

With so much persecution and unrest, with the Jewish people fleeing the land of Israel, the rabbis knew that they would not be able to keep a central seat of rabbinic power alive for long.

Yet, during these great periods of chaos, some of the finest rabbinic minds made their mark. Among them:

    * Rabbi Akiva (whom we discussed in Part 38)
    * Rabbi Akiva's chief disciple, Rabbi Meir, also the husband of the legendary Bruriah
    * Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai, the author of the Zohar, the central text of the Kabbalah
    * Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai's son, Rabbi Eliezer
    * Rabbi Shimon Ben Gamliel II, the descendant of the House of Hillel and a direct descendant of King David

Yehudah HaNasi

Now, another man was to emerge and make his mark ― the son of Rabbi Shimon Ben Gamliel II ― Rabbi Yehudah HaNasi (in English "Judah, the Prince").

In a time of chaos, the rabbis decide that they must do the unprecedented ― write down the Oral Law.

He is one personality who is absolutely fundamental to understanding this period of time, and one of the greatest personalities of Jewish history.

So great was he that he is now affectionately referred to in Jewish scholarship as only Rebbe.

He had a unique combination of attributes ― being both a great Torah scholar and a strong leader ― that gave him the power to lead the Jewish people at this chaotic time. He was also a man of tremendous personal wealth, which put him in a position to wheel and deal and do what needed to get done, not just with the Jews in the Land of Israel but with the Roman authorities as well.

Hadrian dies in 139 C.E and with his death came an improvement in the treatment of the Jewish community in Israel. During a period of relative quiet, Rabbi Yehudah HaNasi managed to befriend the Roman emperors who succeeded Hadrian, particularly Marcus Aurelius (161-180 C.E.). Writes historian Rabbi Berel Wein in his Echoes of Glory (p. 224):

    Providentially, in the course of the Parthian war, Marcus Aurelius met Rabbi [Yehudah HaNasi], and they became friends and eventually confidants. Marcus Aurelius consulted with his friend in Judah on matters of state policy as well as on personal questions.(1)

    The years of Marcus Aurelius' reign, ending in his death in 180, was the high-water mark in the intercourse between Rome and the Jews. The Jews, under the leadership of Rabbi [Yehudah HaNasi], would use this period of blissful respite to prepare themselves for the struggle of darker days surely lurking around the corner.

At this time ― circa 170-200 CE ― the Mishnah was born.

Mishnah

What is the Mishnah?

In past installments we discussed the fact that at Mount Sinai the Jewish people received the Written Torah and the Oral Torah. The Oral Torah was the oral explanation of how the written laws should be executed and followed.

The Oral Torah passed from generation to generation and was never written down(2). Why? Because the Oral Torah was meant to be fluid. The principles stayed the same, but the application of those principles was meant to be adapted to all types of new circumstances.

This worked exceptionally well as long as the central authority ― the Sanhedrin ― remained intact, and the chain of transmission was not interrupted. (That is, teachers were able to freely pass on their wisdom to the next generation of students.) But in the days since the destruction of the Temple, the Sanhedrin had been repeatedly uprooted and teachers had to go into hiding.

Rabbi Yehudah HaNasi realized that things would not get better any time soon. He saw that the Temple would not be rebuilt in his generation and possibly in many generations to come. He saw the Jews fleeing the land as a result of the constant persecutions and impossible living conditions. He saw that the central authority was weaker than ever and might cease altogether To make sure that the chain of transmission would never be broken, he decided that the time had come to write down the Oral Torah.(3)

This was a mammoth undertaking. Although much of the work may have already been done by previous generations of rabbis, the monumental task of editing, explaining and organizing this vast amount of material was left to Rabbi Yehudah. The end result of this massive undertaking was a definitive, yet cryptic (the basic principles were all there yet a teacher was still required to elucidate the material) version of the entire Oral Law called the Mishnah. (Incidentally, the word Mishnah means "repetition" because it was studied by repeating; Mishnah then, by extension, means "learning.") Maimonides, in his introduction to his Mishneh Torah, explains it as follows:

He gathered together all the traditions, enactments, and interpretations and expositions of every position of the Torah, that either come down from Moses, out teacher, or had been deduced by the courts in successive generations. All this material he redacted in the Mishnah, which was diligently taught in public, and thus became universally known among the Jewish people. Copies of it were made and widely disseminated, so that the Oral Law might not be forgotten in Israel

Six Categories of Jewish Law

The Mishnah, which is written in Hebrew, is divided into six basic segments or "orders" and further subdivided into 63 tractates with a total of 525 chapters. These 6 segments dealing with six basic areas of Jewish law:

    * Zeraim, literally "seeds," covering all agricultural rules and laws for foods as well as all blessings
    * Moed, literally, "holiday," dealing with the rituals of Shabbat and other Jewish holidays
    * Nashim, literally "women," examining all the issues between men and women such as marriage, divorce, etc.
    * Nezikin, literally "damages," covering civil and criminal law
    * Kodshim, literally "holy things," concerning laws of the Temple
    * Taharot, literally "pure things," concerning laws of spiritual purity and impurity

Rabbi Yehudah HaNasi finished the Mishnah in ca. 190 CE in the town of Tzipori in the Galilee. You can visit the site today which is very interesting from an archeological perspective. At a site called Beit She'arim (where the Sanhedrin had previously been located prior to its move to Tzipori), there is a vast number of burial caves carved into the side of a mountain. Based on evidence found at the site, archaeologists believe that one of these caves contains the grave of Rabbi Yehudah HaNasi, along with many other great scholars of that time.

Not long after the death of Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi the period know as the era of the Tannaim came to a close. The term Tanna, is derived from the Aramaic word "to teach" and covered a period of 200 years from ca.10 B.C.E. to 200 C.E. beginning with Rabbi Shimon the son of Hillel the Elder and ending with Rabbi Yossi ben Yehuda.

Writing The Talmud

During the centuries following the completion of the Mishnah, the chain of transmission of the Oral law was further weakened by a number of factors: Economic hardship and increased persecution of the Jewish community in Israel caused many Jews, including many rabbis, to flee the country. Many of these rabbis emigrated to Babylon in the Persian Empire. The role of the rabbis of Israel as the sole central authority of the Jewish people was coming to an end.

This decentralization of Torah authority and lack of consensus among the rabbis led to further weakening of the transmission process. It became clear to the sages of this period that the Mishnah alone was no longer clear enough to fully explain the Oral Law. It was written in shorthand fashion and in places was cryptic. This is because it was very concise, written on the assumption that the person reading it was already well-acquainted with the subject matter.

So they began to have discussions about it and to write down the substance of these discussions.

Since at this time a significant portion of the Jewish population was living in Babylon, which was outside the bounds of the Roman Empire, the rabbis there put together their discussions, the end product of which was called Talmud Bavli or the Babylonian Talmud. Even before this process had begun in Babylon, in the land of Israel, another set of discussions took place and the end result was Talmud Yerushalmi or the Jerusalem Talmud. (Incidentally, the Jerusalem Talmud was not written in Jerusalem; it was written in Tiberias, the last place where the Sanhedrin sat, but was called the Jerusalem Talmud in deference to the Sanhedrin's rightful home.)

Due to persecution of the Jewish community in Israel the Jerusalem Talmud, completed in the mid 4th century C.E., was never completed or fully edited. The Jerusalem Talmud is much shorter (it contains only four of the six sections of the Mishnah(4)) and is more cryptic and harder to understand than the Babylonian Talmud. The situation of the Jews in Babylon was much more stable and the rabbis in Babylon had considerably more time to edit and explain the subject matter.

Although there are two Talmuds, they are not really separate. The Rabbis of Babylon had access to the Jerusalem Talmud while they were working on their text. But if there is dispute between the two Talmuds, the Babylonian Talmud is followed.(5) Both because Babylonian Talmud is considered more authoritative and the Jerusalem Talmud is more difficult to study, Jewish students pouring over the Talmud in yeshiva are using chiefly the Babylonian Talmud. The Talmud is more than just an application of the details of the Jewish law as expounded in the Mishnahh. It's the encyclopedia of all Jewish existence.

The Talmud also contains a lot of agadata ― these are stories that are meant to illustrate important points in the Jewish worldview. These stories contain a wealth of information on a huge range of topics. you name it, it's in there.

This information was vital to the Jewish people because Jewish law was never applied by reading a sentence in the Torah and executing it to the letter. Take for example, "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth." It was never Jewish law that if someone blinded you, that you should go and blind him. What is the good of having two blind people? It was always understood on two levels: 1) that justice must be proportional (it's not a life for an eye) and 2) that it means the value of an eye for the value of the eye, referring to monetary damages. Thus, the Talmud presented the written and oral tradition together.

To read the Talmud is to read a lot of arguments. On every page it seems that the rabbis are arguing. This kind of argument ― the purpose of which was to arrive at the kernel of truth ― is called pilpul. This word has a negative connotation outside the yeshiva world, as people read these arguments and it seems to the uneducated eye that the rabbis are merely splitting hairs, and that some of the arguments have absolutely no basis in everyday life. But this is not so.

The reason why the rabbis argued about things that may not have any application to everyday life was to try to get to truth in an abstract way – to understand the logic and to extract the principle. These rabbis were interested in knowing what reality is and in doing the right thing. Reality is what Judaism is all about ― the ultimate reality being God.

Another important point is that much of the discussion and dispute is focused on relatively minor points while the larger issues are generally not disputed. You don't see a single argument as to whether or not you eat pork, or whether or not you can light a fire on the Sabbath. These things were a given, they were totally agreed upon. Only small points were subject to discussion. And these rabbis were wise enough to know that a day would come when the principles established by getting to the core kernel of truth would have far reaching implications.
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Read the entire article @ http://www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/48948646.html

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Torah question, the death of Esau
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2010, 03:53:47 PM »
Here is some discussion of the belief that the Oral law was given at Sinai to Moses, who passed it down to the Rabbis through Joshua..




http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/812102/jewish/What-is-the-Oral-Torah.htm

What is the "Oral Torah"?

By Naftali Silberberg

The Torah has two parts: The "Torah Shebichtav" (Written Law), which is composed of the twenty-four books of the Tanach, and the "Torah Sheba'al Peh" (Oral Law).

G‑d told Moses1 that he will give him "the Torah and the commandments." Why did G‑d add the word "commandments?" Are there any commandments which are not included in the Torah? This verse (amongst others) is a clear inference to the existence of the Oral Torah.

The Oral Torah was transmitted from father to son and from teacher to discipleOriginally the Oral Law was not transcribed. Instead it was transmitted from father to son and from teacher to disciple (thus the name "Oral" Law). Approximately 1800 years ago, Rabbi Judah the Prince concluded that because of all the travails of Exile, the Oral Law would be forgotten if it would not be recorded on paper. He, therefore, assembled the scholars of his generation and compiled the Mishnah, a (shorthanded) collection of all the oral teachings that preceded him. Since then, the Oral Law has ceased to be "oral" and as time passed more and more of the previously oral tradition was recorded.

The Oral Law consists of three components:

1. Laws Given to Moses at Sinai (Halachah L'Moshe M'Sinai):

When Moses went up to heaven to receive the Torah, G‑d gave him the Written Torah together with many instructions. These instructions are called "Halachah L'Moshe M'Sinai" (the Law that was given to Moses on Sinai). Maimonides writes that it is impossible for there to be an argument or disagreement concerning a Halachah L'Moshe M'Sinai, for the Jews who heard the instructions from Moses implemented them into their daily lives and passed it on to their children, who passed it on to their children, etc.

Some examples of Halachah L'Moshe M'Sinai are: tefillin straps must be black, a sukkah must have at least two and a half walls, and all the different Halachic measurements and sizes.

2. The Thirteen Principles of Torah Exegesis (Shlosh Esreh Middot ShehaTorah Nidreshet Bahem):

When G‑d gave the Written Law to Moses he also instructed him how one is to study and understand the Torah. Every word and letter in the Torah is exact, and many laws can be extrapolated from an extra (or missing) word or letter, or a particular sequence which the Torah chooses to use. The thirteen principles which are the keys to uncovering the secrets of the Torah are called the "Shlosh Esreh Middot ShehaTorah Nidreshet Bahem."

For instance: One of the rules is: "Anything that was included in a general statement, but was removed from the general statement in order to teach something, was not removed to teach only about itself, but to apply its teaching to the entire generality." An example for the usage of this rule is: In Exodus 35:3 the Torah says "You shall not light fire in any of your dwellings on the Shabbat day." Now, kindling a fire was already included in the general statement that prohibits work on Shabbat (Exodus 20:10). It was removed from the general rule and stated independently in this verse to teach us that it is a distinct form of work and, as such, carries a distinct penalty. Moreover, this lesson applies to each of the 39 categories of work included in the general statement. Thus, there isn't a broad category called "work," rather each type of work is to be viewed as distinct. Therefore, if someone should do several kinds of work while unaware that they are forbidden on Shabbat, he must bring a separate sin-offering to atone for each type of work that he did.

A full list of the thirteen principles can be found in the prayer-book.2

3. Edicts (Gezayrot):

The rabbis constantly added gezayrot according to the needs of their timesThe Torah3 authorizes the rabbis to protect the word of the Torah through making "Gezayrot" (edicts).

For example: The Torah prohibition of eating or possessing chametz (leavened products) on Passover begins at midday of the fourteenth day of Nissan. Our sages added two hours to this prohibition, for they feared that on a cloudy day people would err and eat chametz after noon.

Just like the Congress is constantly enacting new laws and regulations, for the old laws are not always adequate for modern trends and tendencies, so too, the rabbis constantly added gezayrot according to the needs of their times.

Although the Torah commands us to follow these gezayrot, there are distinctions between a rabbinic decree and a Torah law. One of the distinctions is that when there is a doubt concerning a Torah law one must be stringent, whereas if there is a doubt in a rabbinic decree one may be lenient. [In case of an actual dilemma, always make sure to ask a rabbi what to do.]

Until the end of the Talmudic Era (approx. 1500 years ago) there was a central rabbinic authority which issued gezayrot which were accepted by all the Jews.4 Since that time, different communities have assumed upon themselves various stringencies, but rarely are there universally accepted gezayrot.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Torah question, the death of Esau
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2010, 03:59:46 PM »
The Jewish book of wisdom, Pirkie Avot, starts by establishing this 'Mesorah' through the generations:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/680284/jewish/Chapter-One.htm

Pirkie Avot Mishnah 1:1

1. Moses received the Torah from Sinai and gave it over to Joshua. Joshua gave it over to the Elders, the Elders to the Prophets, and the Prophets gave it over to the Men of the Great Assembly. They [the Men of the Great Assembly] would always say these three things: Be cautious in judgment. Establish many pupils. And make a safety fence around the Torah.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Secularbeliever

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Re: Torah question, the death of Esau
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2010, 05:02:57 PM »
 The Oral Torah was the oral explanation of how the written laws should be executed and followed.<<

I realize this could be out of context, but why would something like Esau's death be included in the Oral Torah when it is not an interpretation or explanation of written laws but a description of a historical event?

We all need to pray for Barack Obama, may the Lord provide him a safe move back to Chicago in January 2,013.

Offline muman613

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Re: Torah question, the death of Esau
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2010, 05:09:42 PM »
The Oral Torah was the oral explanation of how the written laws should be executed and followed.<<

I realize this could be out of context, but why would something like Esau's death be included in the Oral Torah when it is not an interpretation or explanation of written laws but a description of a historical event?



I am sorry if this is confusing. The Midrash is not really the Talmud, but it is part of the oral law or what is referred to as the aggadah...

Here is a discussion of the Midrashic sources:



http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/190,200/What-is-the-Midrash.html

What is the Midrash?

A. "Midrash" means "exposition." The Midrash (or Medrash) is probably the most referred-to collection of explanatory works on Tanach, next to Rashi. The Midrash, or Midrashim, fills in the gaps behind the oft-times sketchy, skeletal narrative of the Torah, Neviim and Ketuvim. It adds meat to its bones, telling us things we otherwise would never know, mainly the dialogues between the Torah's figures and details of their lives. As such, the Midrash is a vital, true part of the Oral Torah.

B. Here's a great definition of "Midrash" by the late great Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan, author of The Living Torah: "...a generic term, usually denoting the non-legalistic teachings of the rabbis of the Talmudic era. In the centuries following the final redaction of the Talmud (around 505 CE), much of this material was gathered into collections known as Midrashim." So, "the Midrash" is like "the dictionary"--there are many dictionaries, each compiled by a different party at a different time.

C. The Midrash consists of a large number of individually written books on various sections of Tanach, or on the entire Tanach. A prominent example of a Midrash is the Midrash Rabbah, which adds critical details to the five books of the Chumash. There is also the Midrash Tanchuma on the Chumash (written by Rabbi Tanchuma, a Talmudic sage), the Yalkut Shim'oni, the Midrash Agadah... and Avot D'Rabbi Natan, Mechilta, Midrash Hagadol, Pirkei D'Rabbi Eliezer, Sifra, Sifri and many more. Each elaborates on all or part of the Written Torah. None, however, should be taken lightly: unfortunately, the misconception exists that midrashim are mere tales or legends. They are not, and the assumption that one can write their own book of Biblical fiction on the assumption that the authors of the Midrash did the same is the most tragic result thereof.

How can I study Midrash?

1. Study Torah

Midrash is part of Torah, and thus studying Midrash is studying Torah. How do you study Torah? See What is Torah? first, and then I'll see you back here.

2. Go Shopping

Perhaps the most popular Midrashic publication is what might be dubbed "Midrash for Dummies": a terrific five-volume, English-language translation of Midrashic commentary entitled The Midrash Says. (There is also The Little Midrash Says, a large-print format of same, just for kids.) Pick up your set at any Jewish bookstore. When you do, don't skip the fabulous Foreword.

3. Remember What you're Doing

Like "Kabbalah," there's a lot of confusion out there when it comes to "Midrash." So here's a golden rule you can't go wrong with: don't rely only on books - go to classes. And since 99 percent of Midrash is on "the Bible" anyway--Tanach--go to a basic Torah class, where your instructor will bring the text to life with ample samplings of Midrashic teachings. Visit www.chabad.com for your nearest one.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Torah question, the death of Esau
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2010, 07:01:03 PM »
Not my place I must admit, but I think that what Secularbeliever means is that he's seeking out some individualized analysis/opinion on this issue from JTF rather than a cut/paste job.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Torah question, the death of Esau
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2010, 08:00:14 PM »
The Oral Torah was the oral explanation of how the written laws should be executed and followed.<<

I realize this could be out of context, but why would something like Esau's death be included in the Oral Torah when it is not an interpretation or explanation of written laws but a description of a historical event?



Good question, the oral Torah, what eventually evolved into the corpus known as Talmud, contains two major components - midrash halacha and midrash agada.     Midrash halacha refers to statements of Jewish law, while midrash agada refers to homiletic explanations of the verses in which the sages used parables to explain events that took place 'reading between the lines' of what is actually written.    

So we have traditions for certain events having taken place even though not recorded in written Torah, aside from certain traditions of custom (ie taking an esrog, for instance - the written Torah doesn't specify what fruit) that we also have.       But we don't always know what is a tradition stemming from Moshe, and what sages derived later.  Sometimes in halacha, that is made known by certain Talmudic phrases, such as 'halacha lemoshe misinai' - these are relatively rare, but usually major subjects of agreement (esrog is one example).  But this distinction isn't really so relevant to us, in practical terms.    
So sometimes an agada could be based on tradition, or it could have been derived from the text (or both - who knows when it originated, it could be long before it was recorded)  Often times when you study deeply you can find the subtle indications in the written text for where the sages derived these type of explanations based on sentiments or grammatical indications, etc.


However, in cases of agada, sometimes the sages purposely exaggerated and 'mythologized' events in order to teach lessons, so it's not always the same as a "historical fact" per se.  And it can't always be considered a historical investigation in the way that we understand the discipline of history today.  Generally speaking though if it's plausible there's no reason to think twice but sometimes if it's incredible a deeper meaning to their words is sought.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Torah question, the death of Esau
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2010, 08:02:07 PM »
Not my place I must admit, but I think that what Secularbeliever means is that he's seeking out some individualized analysis/opinion on this issue from JTF rather than a cut/paste job.

No problem - you could be right.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Torah question, the death of Esau
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2010, 08:14:12 PM »
KWRBT, I will ask you something--in Judaism how is it explained why the Oral Torah was not written down to begin with?

Offline muman613

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Re: Torah question, the death of Esau
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2010, 08:21:28 PM »
KWRBT, I will ask you something--in Judaism how is it explained why the Oral Torah was not written down to begin with?

I know you are asking KWRBT but I will attempt to answer you.

I have explained this many times here... The primary reason given as to why the Oral Torah was not written was so that the Jewish people would be the only people who know how to interpret the Written Torah. Without the Oral law the Torah makes very little sense.

As KWRBT explained, the Oral law explains many things alluded to in the Torah, as to what constitutes work, what a beautiful fruit {the esrog} we are to bring on Sukkot, what constitutes Tefillin, etc...

Those other religious which claim divinity through the Torah, who reject the Oral law, are only dealing with a half-truth. The Oral torah is a part of the entire Torah to the Jewish people.

http://www.beingjewish.com/mesorah/whynotwritten.html
« Last Edit: December 19, 2010, 08:27:29 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Torah question, the death of Esau
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2010, 08:24:59 PM »
Not my place I must admit, but I think that what Secularbeliever means is that he's seeking out some individualized analysis/opinion on this issue from JTF rather than a cut/paste job.


The answer to this question was not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of fact, which I very clearly backed up with evidence from the sources. This story concerning Essau is most certainly of Midrashic origin, there is no debate about that. Is there?

What matter is it what my opinion of the story is? Does this make Hushim a Kahanist? I didn't think it did..

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

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Re: Torah question, the death of Esau
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2010, 08:28:41 PM »
Here is what this site says as to why the Oral law was kept oral..


Quote

http://www.beingjewish.com/mesorah/whynotwritten.html

Why Did Hashem Create an Oral Law?

Question: If there is an Oral Law, why didn't Hashem or Moses write it down? What benefit could there be in the details of the Law being Oral?

Answer: There are actually many reasons why the Torah needs an oral component. I will, Hashem willing, try to explain a few in this article.


The Rabbis make a very interesting statement in the Midrash Rabbah (sermons of the Rabbis taken from the Oral Tradition, and later collected and published by a student of Rabbi Judah the Prince, Rabbi Oshayah, circa 200 C.E.). The Midrash is discussing some of the deeper meanings of the sacrificial offerings brought by the leaders of the Tribes of Israel when the Holy Tabernacle was built and dedicated:

    "And for the peace sacrifice, two oxen..." Because Hashem gave Israel two Torahs: The Written Torah and the Oral Torah. He gave them the Written Torah that has the 613 Commandments, to fill them up with merits and to purify them, as it says "Hashem wants His righteous people, so He increased and strengthened the Torah."

    He gave them the Oral Torah so that they would, by the Oral Torah, be distinct from all other nations. For this reason it was not given in writing, so that the Gentiles could not forge it or claim it for their own, and then claim that they are the true Israel, as they did with the Written Torah.

    -- Midrash Bamidbar Rabbah 14:10, s.v. "On the Eleventh Day"


The Oral Torah is our unique property, our special possession, our glory and source of joy. It is what makes us what we are, and enables us to fulfill Hashem's will.

...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Torah question, the death of Esau
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2010, 08:46:10 PM »
KWRBT, I will ask you something--in Judaism how is it explained why the Oral Torah was not written down to begin with?

It wasn't meant to be written down.  In fact, by the sages at the time of the mishna, even to compile the mishnayot for systematic study, was viewed as risque - they collectively agreed upon its necessity, however.   But these sages viewed it as forbidden to write down the oral Torah into a compendium or systematic corpus, initially.   (They did take down private notes and write statements in their personal possession, for memory or other reasons, but to write down systematically for the purpose of public teaching or even for teaching a few students was viewed as forbidden).

The whole point of this was that Oral Torah was meant to be flexible in a way that written statements (the Written Torah) cannot be, so it was supposed to be a system of interpretation to go hand-in-hand with the written Torah.   Both components were needed.     This would enable a Sanhedrin to rule in accordance with pressing religious needs and communal issues in changing times and changing situations so that they could react and respond accordingly.     This system broke down when the Sanhedrin was persecuted and disbanded, along with all the dispersal of the sages, and so the oral Torah eventually had to be written down.   My Rabbi explains that the Talmud (all the collected explanations of mishnaic statements) was meant to function as a sort of "replacement-Sanhedrin" based on all the legal precedent and teachings that came before it, when it was established for systematic study.

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Re: Torah question, the death of Esau
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2010, 08:58:27 PM »
KWRBT, I will ask you something--in Judaism how is it explained why the Oral Torah was not written down to begin with?

It wasn't meant to be written down.  In fact, by the sages at the time of the mishna, even to compile the mishnayot for systematic study, was viewed as risque - they collectively agreed upon its necessity, however.   But these sages viewed it as forbidden to write down the oral Torah into a compendium or systematic corpus, initially.   (They did take down private notes and write statements in their personal possession, for memory or other reasons, but to write down systematically for the purpose of public teaching or even for teaching a few students was viewed as forbidden).

The whole point of this was that Oral Torah was meant to be flexible in a way that written statements (the Written Torah) cannot be, so it was supposed to be a system of interpretation to go hand-in-hand with the written Torah.   Both components were needed.     This would enable a Sanhedrin to rule in accordance with pressing religious needs and communal issues in changing times and changing situations so that they could react and respond accordingly.     This system broke down when the Sanhedrin was persecuted and disbanded, along with all the dispersal of the sages, and so the oral Torah eventually had to be written down.   My Rabbi explains that the Talmud (all the collected explanations of mishnaic statements) was meant to function as a sort of "replacement-Sanhedrin" based on all the legal precedent and teachings that came before it, when it was established for systematic study.

That is also very true. The Oral system was intended to be flexible for the current situations in life, not static in time... I have heard this explained as another important reason the law was intended to be kept Orally.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Torah question, the death of Esau
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2010, 09:03:44 PM »
Muman, why the defensiveness?

I made a guesstimation about Secularbeliever's intentions and that's it. There was no excoriation. You do have a lot of knowledge but I think many of us would like to see more of it in your own words, instead of simply in pastings from chabad.org. I'm of course not at all trying to say that Chabad is wrong in any manner (they are among my favorite Jews), but I'm sure that a strong Torah scholar like you can also mull the rabbinical opinions and formulate your own views too, even if they largely agree with theirs.

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Re: Torah question, the death of Esau
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2010, 09:20:10 PM »
Not my place I must admit, but I think that what Secularbeliever means is that he's seeking out some individualized analysis/opinion on this issue from JTF rather than a cut/paste job.

I appreciate your input but I was just trying to understand where an account like this comes from if it is not in the Torah, especially since Esau and Jacob were significant characters in the Torah and you would think that an incident as dramatic as one of Jacob's grandsons slaying Esau for refusing to allow Jacob to be buried in the proper sport would be included.  In terms of Hushim being a Kahanist obviously he preceded Kahane, but the idea of someone who acts while others are discussing legalities and technicalities is certainly something that Kahane would have related to.
We all need to pray for Barack Obama, may the Lord provide him a safe move back to Chicago in January 2,013.

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Re: Torah question, the death of Esau
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2010, 09:21:30 PM »
Not my place I must admit, but I think that what Secularbeliever means is that he's seeking out some individualized analysis/opinion on this issue from JTF rather than a cut/paste job.

I appreciate your input but I was just trying to understand where an account like this comes from if it is not in the Torah, especially since Esau and Jacob were significant characters in the Torah and you would think that an incident as dramatic as one of Jacob's grandsons slaying Esau for refusing to allow Jacob to be buried in the proper sport would be included.  In terms of Hushim being a Kahanist obviously he preceded Kahane, but the idea of someone who acts while others are discussing legalities and technicalities is certainly something that Kahane would have related to.

Indeed, it is an act similar to that of Pinhas!

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Re: Torah question, the death of Esau
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2010, 09:26:17 PM »
The amazing thing about Hushim is that he was deaf, and he was Dan's only son, and yet by the time Moshe takes a census of the tribes, I believe in sefer bamidbar, the Tribe of Dan comes to outnumber even the tribe of Benyamin, and Benyamin had 10 sons!    So we see several things, among them that one can overcome physical limitations and achieve great things and be blessed in other ways, but also that the righteous devotion of Hushim was rewarded greatly.

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Re: Torah question, the death of Esau
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2010, 09:26:31 PM »
Not my place I must admit, but I think that what Secularbeliever means is that he's seeking out some individualized analysis/opinion on this issue from JTF rather than a cut/paste job.

I appreciate your input but I was just trying to understand where an account like this comes from if it is not in the Torah, especially since Esau and Jacob were significant characters in the Torah and you would think that an incident as dramatic as one of Jacob's grandsons slaying Esau for refusing to allow Jacob to be buried in the proper sport would be included.  In terms of Hushim being a Kahanist obviously he preceded Kahane, but the idea of someone who acts while others are discussing legalities and technicalities is certainly something that Kahane would have related to.

Indeed, it is an act similar to that of Pinhas!

Yes, Pinchas is the ultimate zealot. But obviously Pinchas was right according to Halacha, as he was awarded with the ultimate honor of being a Kohen... And I recently was learned that Pinchas actually is the same soul as Eliyahu HaNavi...  I have not heard about Hushims act being as beloved to Hashem as Pinchas's zealotry.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

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Re: Torah question, the death of Esau
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2010, 09:33:07 PM »
Not my place I must admit, but I think that what Secularbeliever means is that he's seeking out some individualized analysis/opinion on this issue from JTF rather than a cut/paste job.

I appreciate your input but I was just trying to understand where an account like this comes from if it is not in the Torah, especially since Esau and Jacob were significant characters in the Torah and you would think that an incident as dramatic as one of Jacob's grandsons slaying Esau for refusing to allow Jacob to be buried in the proper sport would be included.  In terms of Hushim being a Kahanist obviously he preceded Kahane, but the idea of someone who acts while others are discussing legalities and technicalities is certainly something that Kahane would have related to.

Well there is so much Midrash which is not in the Torah...

Here are a couple very important examples:

1) Abraham was thrown into the fiery furnace by Nimrod, as a test of faith. Nimrod challenged Abraham to bow to an idol or be cast into the furnace. Abraham refused, was thrown into the fire, yet walked out unscathed... This story is a paramount example of Abrahams devotion yet we hear nothing about it in the Torah.

2) The prophecy of Miriam. The Torah doesn't tell us much about Miriam, Moses sister. Yet the midrash tells us much about this wonderful woman. Without Miriam Moses would never have been born. Because of the edicts against the Hebrews in Egypt Moses parents divorced and swore to never have any more children after Miriam and Aaron were born... But Miriam told her parents that their edict was more cruel than Pharoahs {death of male children} because both males and female will be killed. So Moses parents resumed marital relations and they had Moses. This story is also missing from the written Torah.


Also, in the Torah portion we read yesterday, a midrash tells us why the Torah tells us that Jacob was going to tell his sons about what will happen at the end of days, and yet he never tells this to them. The midrash relates that Jacob had the Divine Presence {Shechinah} resting on him which granted him the vision of the future, but when he foresaw some of his childrens future generations becoming wicked, the divine presence left him. Without learning this we are left with the question as to why the Torah says he was going to say something, and yet he didn't say it..

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Torah question, the death of Esau
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2010, 09:34:39 PM »
Btw, the tale of Esav's beheading appears in Bereshith Rabba (97:21).   This is an early midrashic source and is one of the foundations of Rashi's commentary on Chumash from which he regularly cites.   Bereshith Rabba is usually is giving exegesis word by word/verse by verse in all of Bereshith, and its compilation is attributed to a sage of the Amoraic period (Gemara/Talmudic period) Osha'yah.   It is a collection of explanations by various sages in the period before him (I think including tannaim).

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Re: Torah question, the death of Esau
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2010, 09:38:06 PM »
Not my place I must admit, but I think that what Secularbeliever means is that he's seeking out some individualized analysis/opinion on this issue from JTF rather than a cut/paste job.

I appreciate your input but I was just trying to understand where an account like this comes from if it is not in the Torah, especially since Esau and Jacob were significant characters in the Torah and you would think that an incident as dramatic as one of Jacob's grandsons slaying Esau for refusing to allow Jacob to be buried in the proper sport would be included.  In terms of Hushim being a Kahanist obviously he preceded Kahane, but the idea of someone who acts while others are discussing legalities and technicalities is certainly something that Kahane would have related to.

Indeed, it is an act similar to that of Pinhas!

Yes, Pinchas is the ultimate zealot. But obviously Pinchas was right according to Halacha, as he was awarded with the ultimate honor of being a Kohen...

Hushim was also right.  I have not heard him attributed negatively by anyone.   

It was a family dispute and he defended his father's honor.   I don't think chazal were trying to portray him negatively.



Quote
And I recently was learned that Pinchas actually is the same soul as Eliyahu HaNavi...

I recently learned that Ibn Ezra disagrees on that point and says so explicitly.   In many places he disagrees with certain statements of chazal or says that they can't be taken literally, and this is one of them.


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 I have not heard about Hushims act being as beloved to Hashem as Pinchas's zealotry.


Well, it did not appear in the written Torah, so I never said it was equal in scope or degree of righteousness, but you can't deny the similarity of the situation!    And Secular Believer put it well:  "but the idea of someone who acts while others are discussing legalities and technicalities is certainly something that Kahane would have related to."