I am getting tired of this whole Giffords shooting story

[Secularbeliever]

I hope she recovers and lives a happy and healthy life.  But I really don't relate to this media obsession with this.  I was at the gym tonight and they covered the memorial service.  There was no sound so I did not hear what Obama said.  Then CNN had breaking news with a woman Senator who had visited Giffords and was thrilled because she raised her hand.  Again, I truly wish her well, but I don't want to hear about every blink, every toe wiggle, every hand raise.  They will need 24 hour coverage the first time she goes to the bathroom by herself.  This thing was a tragedy and aside from the left trying to use it to stifle dissent it is just not that compelling to me.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

This is a supremely evil far-left, self-hating white, pseudo-Jew Aztlanist who practically supported the boycott of her own state. I hope Giffords survives to--so that she can continue her political career south of the border with her bros and sisters she loves more than fellow Arizonans.

[muman613]

This is a supremely evil far-left, self-hating white, pseudo-Jew Aztlanist who practically supported the boycott of her own state. I hope Giffords survives to--so that she can continue her political career south of the border with her bros and sisters she loves more than fellow Arizonans.

Please provide some evidence of any of this. I have read several times that she was a supporter of Israel, had traveled there several times, and she was proud of her Jewish heritage...

I have not seen any of the allegations you have stated...

http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2011/01/gabrielle-giffords-on-her-jewish-roots.html#links

While certainly she is far left of a Kahanist view.... But she is not anti-Israel... I believe she, like many other liberal Jews, believes she is looking out for the best interests of Israel and the Jewish people. Although we know she is misguided we should not hate her because of her beliefs. Only if she does something obviously against the best interests of the Jewish people. At this time land for peace is obviously a failure, but it will take some time for everyone to agree on this...

[Secularbeliever]

Please provide some evidence of any of this. I have read several times that she was a supporter of Israel, had traveled there several times, and she was proud of her Jewish heritage...

I have not seen any of the allegations you have stated...

http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2011/01/gabrielle-giffords-on-her-jewish-roots.html#links

While certainly she is far left of a Kahanist view.... But she is not anti-Israel...

I am stipulating that she is a nice person and probably relatively unobjectable for a liberal Democrat.  My point is I just don't think it is a big story.

[muman613]

I am stipulating that she is a nice person and probably relatively unobjectable for a liberal Democrat.  My point is I just don't think it is a big story.

I did not suspect you held her accountable for her predicament. I was asking TBF for some examples which support his beliefs...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The media has an obsession.   They promote the govt and especially leftwing figures within it and leftwing causes, no matter how untruthful their means of doing so.

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

The story is Zzzzzzz city.  Especially because the media acts as if the Right/Tea Party had influence on this.  The man was fueled by Leftism [Mein Kampf], extreme Leftism [Communist Manifesto], and American Leftism [enshrined in his listening to of Anti-Flag, et al; no Right winger could stomach those lyrics]. -- And just as the Bolshevik media will not miss a chance to slam Palin or any other non-Bolshevik, Obama would never miss a chance to hear the sound of his own voice [as if the country needs any consoling commentary on this event!].

[Secularbeliever]

I did not suspect you held her accountable for her predicament. I was asking TBF for some examples which support his beliefs...

I was saying that the issue was not is she a good person, my issue is this really such a huge story.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I think this pretty much speaks for itself:

http://www.votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=28507 (Giffords' congressional voting record)
http://www.jewishtucson.org/page.aspx?id=136353 (Giffords supports the "peace process" while pretending to be pro-Israel)
http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/local/report/042310_brewer_sign (Giffords calls SB1070 "racist")
http://azjewishpost.com/2010/3767/ (AZ Jews Say Giffords Not A Friend Of Israel)

I think supporting every amnesty- and abortion-related piece of legislation that comes up, opposing SB1070, voting for fags in the military and nuclear disarmament, and being good friends with the other Tucson congressman (Grijalva, who is a vicious Jew-hater ) speaks for itself.

[Secularbeliever]

I think this pretty much speaks for itself:

http://www.votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=28507 (Giffords' congressional voting record)
http://www.jewishtucson.org/page.aspx?id=136353 (Giffords supports the "peace process" while pretending to be pro-Israel)
http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/local/report/042310_brewer_sign (Giffords calls SB1070 "racist")
http://azjewishpost.com/2010/3767/ (AZ Jews Say Giffords Not A Friend Of Israel)

I think supporting every amnesty- and abortion-related piece of legislation that comes up, opposing SB1070, voting for fags in the military and nuclear disarmament, and being good friends with the other Tucson congressman (Grijalva, who is a vicious Jew-hater ) speaks for itself.

I think you will find a two headed mountain lion before you find a liberal Democrat who is pro Israel in the sense that we think of.  The Israeli government in the Oslo Process has among all the other fiascos blurred the line as to what is pro Israel and what is not.  When you criticize her, or any politician, for supporting the phoney peace process or the suicidal two state solution they can just retort they are following the same policy as the Israeli government.  That is a very difficult argument to rebut.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I know that. I posted that for Muman who was claiming that she supports Israel.

[דוד בן זאב אריה]

It's getting prety sick I have to admit

[White Israelite]

I guess the senators life is more important than all the other victims who were shot...

[angryChineseKahanist]

I agree with the argument that this story is to boost King Obama's toilet hole ratings.

[muman613]

I know that. I posted that for Muman who was claiming that she supports Israel.

There are those who consider the peace-process pro-Israel. Not every Jew understands that it is a very bad thing for the Jewish people. I do not consider them evil because of it, just because they are misguided.

I do not know the facts but I do know that some people here are quick to accuse and blame.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Don't mince your words Muman, everybody knows full well you mean me. It's interesting that you think that ignorance is a free pass for pressuring Israel to commit suicide; since some people think the "peace process" is a good thing, then they are morally off the hook in your eyes? WTH? I suppose that since Giffords also thinks abortion on demand is a good thing, that it's okay for her to fight for that at every turn too.

I guess that since Adolf Shitler thought that he was doing a good thing for the world, that he was a good guy too.

[muman613]

Don't mince your words Muman, everybody knows full well you mean me. It's interesting that you think that ignorance is a free pass for pressuring Israel to commit suicide; since some people think the "peace process" is a good thing, then they are morally off the hook in your eyes? WTH? I suppose that since Giffords also thinks abortion on demand is a good thing, that it's okay for her to fight for that at every turn too.

I guess that since Adolf Shitler thought that he was doing a good thing for the world, that he was a good guy too.

So you are comparing her to Adolph shitler? I don't really understand where you are coming from TBF. But that is another issue... There are Jews who hold political opinions all over the spectrum. Some consider the peace plan in the best interest of the Jews. I know some of these people and I will not condemn them all to eternal damnation as you so easily do.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but you will not hear me condemn anyone unless I know that they are evil. I have not seen the evidence of this yet... So I apologize that I cannot agree with you...

If she is supporting abortion on demand this issue needs to be investigated. I personally think it is a terrible thing that people kill babies. But Judaism does not have as clear a prohibition as other religions seem to have. I think the basic idea is that we should not destroy any life, or potential life, and thus abortion is prohibited.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

You are entitled to think however you want, Muman. However, I kindly ask you to stop referring to Giffords as a Jew. She is very definitely not.

[Secularbeliever]

I know we are getting off track but I thought Judaism did clearly prohibit abortion except to save the mother's life

[muman613]

You are entitled to think however you want, Muman. However, I kindly ask you to stop referring to Giffords as a Jew. She is very definitely not.

I have said, ever since this topic came up, that I do not consider anyone who is not Halachically Jewish as a Jew. Do not imply that I said anything other than this because it is a belief which causes me much personal anguish {because of the fact I must 'cut-off' some members of my family because of it}.

I say that she has stated her desire to be Jewish. I welcome such desires and wish some of the members of my family who have intermarried would wish to be Jewish, and then go through a full conversion process. There is nothing wrong with a person wanting to be Jewish because of their fathers Judaism. And as I said, we should encourage them to pursue the Torah lifestyle by bringing them in, not pushing them away.

You animosity towards liberal/reform Jews is not the best way to confront the problem, at least according to my understanding of Judaism. Jews are supposed to bring other Jews closer to Hashem through setting a good example which the other Jews will emulate. We are not supposed to build a wall and separate Jews into categories and exclude those who don't necessarily agree with us 100%. We obviously must be aware who our enemies are, and clearly not every Jew is our friend. But I believe that the majority of those who identify themselves as Jewish have a reason to do so, and we should give some the benefit of the doubt.

I attend Shabbatons held by Religious Orthodox Jews who also invite Jews of all beliefs. The outreach to other Jews is a great thing, and brings many into better observance, and eventually into obviously Zionist thinking.

I do not say that she is a 'Jew', but that she has an affinity towards Judaism. I wish that more people born of Jewish fathers would pursue their fathers faith and convert according to Halacha.

[muman613]

I know we are getting off track but I thought Judaism did clearly prohibit abortion except to save the mother's life

Yes, that is one of the major exceptions where abortion is allowed.

But the question as to when 'life' starts is a little different from the non-Jewish sources. I believe we have had this discussion in the forum before, and I do not want to cut/paste again. Let me see if I can find that discussion...

Here are some sources which discuss the Jewish view on abortion:

http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48954946.html

As abortion resurfaces as a political issue in the upcoming U.S. presidential election, it is worthwhile to investigate the Jewish approach to the issue. The traditional Jewish view of abortion does not fit conveniently into any of the major "camps" in the current American abortion debate. We neither ban abortion completely, nor do we allow indiscriminate abortion "on demand."
.
.
.
To gain a clear understanding of when abortion is permitted (or even required) and when it is forbidden requires an appreciation of certain nuances of halacha (Jewish law) which govern the status of the fetus.1

The easiest way to conceptualize a fetus in halacha is to imagine it as a full-fledged human being -- but not quite.2 In most circumstances, the fetus is treated like any other "person." Generally, one may not deliberately harm a fetus. But while it would seem obvious that Judaism holds accountable one who purposefully causes a woman to miscarry, sanctions are even placed upon one who strikes a pregnant woman causing an unintentional miscarriage.3 That is not to say that all rabbinical authorities consider abortion to be murder. The fact that the Torah requires a monetary payment for causing a miscarriage is interpreted by some Rabbis to indicate that abortion is not a capital crime4 and by others as merely indicating that one is not executed for performing an abortion, even though it is a type of murder.5 There is even disagreement regarding whether the prohibition of abortion is Biblical or Rabbinic. Nevertheless, it is universally agreed that the fetus will become a full-fledged human being and there must be a very compelling reason to allow for abortion.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I know we are getting off track but I thought Judaism did clearly prohibit abortion except to save the mother's life

You are right, Chaim has stated this many times on Ask JTF.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I say that she has stated her desire to be Jewish. I welcome such desires and wish some of the members of my family who have intermarried would wish to be Jewish, and then go through a full conversion process. There is nothing wrong with a person wanting to be Jewish because of their fathers Judaism. And as I said, we should encourage them to pursue the Torah lifestyle by bringing them in, not pushing them away.

So... marrying a 100% Gentile, casually attending an extreme-leftist Deform "synagogue", pushing for such Jewish policies as fag marriage and fags in the military, and demanding that Israel commit suicide mean that she "really wants to be Jewish"?

You animosity towards liberal/reform Jews is not the best way to confront the problem, at least according to my understanding of Judaism. Jews are supposed to bring other Jews closer to Hashem through setting a good example which the other Jews will emulate.

Are you kidding me? Tell me, what professedly Jewish member of JTF is constantly flaming other forum members who aren't as devout as he claims to be?

But I believe that the majority of those who identify themselves as Jewish have a reason to do so, and we should give some the benefit of the doubt.

Translation: "We should refrain from attacking Joey Lieberman and Neturei Karta because they claim to be proud Jews."

I do not say that she is a 'Jew', but that she has an affinity towards Judaism. I wish that more people born of Jewish fathers would pursue their fathers faith and convert according to Halacha.

Once more, are you serious?  

[muman613]

So... marrying a 100% Gentile, casually attending an extreme-leftist Deform "synagogue", pushing for such Jewish policies as fag marriage and fags in the military, and demanding that Israel commit suicide mean that she "really wants to be Jewish"?
Are you kidding me? Tell me, what professedly Jewish member of JTF is constantly flaming other forum members who aren't as devout as he claims to be?
Translation: "We should refrain from attacking Joey Lieberman and Neturei Karta because they claim to be proud Jews."
Once more, are you serious?  

TBF,

Are you kidding me? Tell me, what professedly Jewish member of JTF is constantly flaming other forum members who aren't as devout as he claims to be?

Who the heck have I flamed? I don't know what the heck you are talking about. I do not say anything against any forum member for their observance. I do say that it would be best for all Jews to observe the mitzvot, and that it is a mitzvah for me to do so. But I do not have any bad opinion of any Jewish member here {except maybe that Ben M. character}. My opinion of virtually all JTF members is very high and I am sorry that you feel that I am flaming others.

Translation: "We should refrain from attacking Joey Lieberman and Neturei Karta because they claim to be proud Jews."

I said you can do as you will, but I will refrain from attacking Lieberman on the forums. Regarding NK I have stated repeatedly that I rebuke them and I feel that they are rodefs against the Jewish people and should be cut off from normative Judaism. I have stated that the branch of Chassidic Judaism from which the NK originated, the Satmar Chassidic Judaism, is an authentic Chassidic Jewish sect and I know some Satmar Jews who are good Jews, even if they are not Zionistic.

The Torah clearly tells a Jew what to do concerning treatment of other Jews. Those who are born of Jewish mothers are considered Jewish and Torah says that we should not be 'tale-bearers' against our brothers. I am of the belief that the laws of Lashon Hara are very important, and Jews today do not realize how bad we speak of other Jews. I too am disappointed by many Jewish leaders but I do not try to tear them down, I try to build up Jews who will replace these sorry leaders. I believe that it is best to expend 'positive' energy rather than constantly expending 'negative energy' tearing down others.

Regarding whether I want Jews who are far from Jewish belief, and from Halacha, to come back to their roots.... Yes I am 100% serious. And I even want those who have Jewish fathers to investigate the Jewish beliefs and then desire to convert to Judaism. I hope that my believing this is not offensive to your religion, but I do want my relatives to one day want to become Jewish.

It is a command for a Jew to love a convert. Do you wonder why we are commanded to do this? It is a long and interesting explanation. But I will save it for another time.

I am sorry that we are disagreeing once again TBF... I sometimes wish we had better understanding..

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I'm not going to get into a blamegame with a pathological liar. If this sits well with your conscience, then I'm done. Have a good day.