Author Topic: Chabad and Jewish Messianism [Machon Shilo Shiur]  (Read 7710 times)

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Offline Ari Ben-Canaan

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Chabad and Jewish Messianism [Machon Shilo Shiur]
« on: January 31, 2011, 11:51:46 PM »
http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-audio-shiurim/41-audiohalakha/475-habad-and-jewish-messianism

I believe the Rabbi who gives the Shiurim on this website is Rav Davidh Bar-Hayim.  It is a 4 part/4 hour Shiur on Chabad and a look at its controversial messisanism focused around their deceased Rebbe, and how it is a grave violation of Halakcha.  I have enjoyed good times with Chabad, but I have also been warned by a Rabbi and an ultra-Orthodox Jew that you need to watch out for idolation in Chabad, although both people I spoke with also had good things to say about Chabad.  I am not ready to give up going to Chabad because I personally have yet to see idolation going on, or instructions to pray to their Rebbe personally, but I have heard about it before in person, and on the internet as well, but until here never addressed in painstakingly clear terms of Halakcha by a very competent Orthodox Rabbi.


"Habad and Jewish Messianism

Monday, 17 January 2011 15:12

Part One:  Though the term "messiah" is not mentioned in the Torah, the Rambam describes the attributes of the messiah, and the Rebbe doesn't qualify.  Parallels between theology of some Chabad adherents and Christianity.

http://machonshilo.org/en/images/stories/files/Habad-Jewish%20Messianism1D.mp3
Download Part One

Part Two:  Why Jews are drawn to supernatural salvation - even though Hashem has saved us repeatedly through natural means.  Is a miracle worker the messiah?  Examples from the Torah.

http://machonshilo.org/en/images/stories/files/Habad-Jewish%20Messianism2D.mp3
Download Part Two

Part Three:  How to relate to someone with strange ideas or who claims he is Hashem.  A sin greater than eating pork.  The halachic rationale behind destroying some yeshivoth to save others.  Habad uproots the Torah mishnah of sleeping in the sukkah.

http://machonshilo.org/en/images/stories/files/HabadJewishMessianism3D.mp3
Download Part Three

Part Four:  Regarding a Jew who believes that a man is Hashem, or who prays to a man instead of Hashem, can you drink wine he has touched?  Must you burn tefillin, mezzuzoth, or even a Torah he has written?  Plus:  A Habad house may possibly be a place of idol worship.

http://machonshilo.org/en/images/stories/files/Habad-JewishMessianism4D.mp3
Download Part Four"
"You must keep the arab under your boot or he will be at your throat" -Unknown

"When we tell the Arab, ‘Come, I want to help you and see to your needs,’ he doesn’t look at us like gentlemen. He sees weakness and then the wolf shows what he can do.” - Maimonides

 “I am all peace, but when I speak, they are for war.” -Psalms 120:7

"The difference between a Jewish liberal and a Jewish conservative is that when a Jewish liberal walks out of the Holocaust Museum, he feels, "This shows why we need to have more tolerance and multiculturalism." The Jewish conservative feels, "We should have killed a lot more Nazis, and sooner."" - Philip Klein

Offline muman613

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Re: Chabad and Jewish Messianism [Machon Shilo Shiur]
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2011, 01:36:03 AM »
I think this is a bunch of BS...

I know several Chabad Rabbis and not a single one has said anything about Rebbe being Moshiach... I have asked point blank about it and they have answered me honestly. There have been some who believed this heresy... But I have not seen any Chabad rabbis say this... I have listened to Hours and Hours of Rabbi shuirs on Chabad.org and have never heard them suggest that Rebbe was Moshiach.


It has been a common tactic of the Mitnagdim to attack Chassidus. This has been the case since the origins of Chassidic Judaism. There are those who accuse Rabbi Nachmans followers of believing he was Moshiach. I have studied Breslov for a while and have never seen it said that he was Moshiach. But he was accused, and his followers are accused to this day, of following a false Moshiach.

One of the basic ideas of Chassidus is the concept of a spiritual leader of a generation, called in Chassidus the Tzaddik of the generation. Another related idea is the 39 hidden tzadikim of the generation. The spiritual leader is steeped in study of Talmud and Torah. He also brings down Kabbalah to a level which the average Jew can understand. This is why all major branches of Chassidus, which stem from the legacy of the Baal Shem Tov, contain elements of Kabbalah. Another important concept in both Lubavitch and Breslov is the idea of simcha. Joy is a commandment and this is why we sing and dance and engage in singing during davening.

I do not believe that the Chabad organization is teaching people that Rebbe was the Moshiach. I was afraid of this for a while but I am pretty confident now that this is just a rumor held by some who look for problems with Chassidic Judaism as a whole.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Chabad and Jewish Messianism [Machon Shilo Shiur]
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2011, 01:40:00 AM »
All of those topics are completely false...

Chabad does not teach that Hashem is a man... There is no idol worship at Chabad houses...

The redemption from Egypt is the prototype of the future redemption. I consider that redemption to be totally miraculous... And I believe that there will be some major miracles in the future redemption. If you don't believe that this is the case just read the Song at the Sea and tell me that they did not "See Hashem" when they pointed and said "This is my L-rd, I will build him a house".

I think that this rabbi has some sour grapes.. And he is engaged in massive Lashon Hara against good Jews...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Chabad and Jewish Messianism [Machon Shilo Shiur]
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2011, 01:41:49 AM »
Don't tell me you listen to this 'rabbi'...


In the first tape he claims that these beliefs are held by 'some CHabad' and then goes on to attack Chabad as an organization. I call that a straw man argument. And I refuse to learn anything from this man..

Quote
Part One:  Though the term "messiah" is not mentioned in the Torah, the Rambam describes the attributes of the messiah, and the Rebbe doesn't qualify.  Parallels between theology of some Chabad adherents and Christianity.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ari Ben-Canaan

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Re: Chabad and Jewish Messianism [Machon Shilo Shiur]
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2011, 01:45:13 AM »
I think this is a bunch of BS...

I know several Chabad Rabbis and not a single one has said anything about Rebbe being Moshiach... I have asked point blank about it and they have answered me honestly. There have been some who believed this heresy... But I have not seen any Chabad rabbis say this... I have listened to Hours and Hours of Rabbi shuirs on Chabad.org and have never heard them suggest that Rebbe was Moshiach.


It has been a common tactic of the Mitnagdim to attack Chassidus. This has been the case since the origins of Chassidic Judaism. There are those who accuse Rabbi Nachmans followers of believing he was Moshiach. I have studied Breslov for a while and have never seen it said that he was Moshiach. But he was accused, and his followers are accused to this day, of following a false Moshiach.

One of the basic ideas of Chassidus is the concept of a spiritual leader of a generation, called in Chassidus the Tzaddik of the generation. Another related idea is the 39 hidden tzadikim of the generation. The spiritual leader is steeped in study of Talmud and Torah. He also brings down Kabbalah to a level which the average Jew can understand. This is why all major branches of Chassidus, which stem from the legacy of the Baal Shem Tov, contain elements of Kabbalah. Another important concept in both Lubavitch and Breslov is the idea of simcha. Joy is a commandment and this is why we sing and dance and engage in singing during davening.

I do not believe that the Chabad organization is teaching people that Rebbe was the Moshiach. I was afraid of this for a while but I am pretty confident now that this is just a rumor held by some who look for problems with Chassidic Judaism as a whole.



Did you listen to the Shiur?  The Shiurim this Rabbi gives are pretty good.  I was tipped off to the website by KWRBT.
"You must keep the arab under your boot or he will be at your throat" -Unknown

"When we tell the Arab, ‘Come, I want to help you and see to your needs,’ he doesn’t look at us like gentlemen. He sees weakness and then the wolf shows what he can do.” - Maimonides

 “I am all peace, but when I speak, they are for war.” -Psalms 120:7

"The difference between a Jewish liberal and a Jewish conservative is that when a Jewish liberal walks out of the Holocaust Museum, he feels, "This shows why we need to have more tolerance and multiculturalism." The Jewish conservative feels, "We should have killed a lot more Nazis, and sooner."" - Philip Klein

Offline muman613

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Re: Chabad and Jewish Messianism [Machon Shilo Shiur]
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2011, 01:51:18 AM »
It does not matter to me...

I have investigated the matter because of course it was a concern to me. I know what idolatry is, and I know the difference between accepting that a man was a tzadik {which I fully believe that Rebbe Schnerson was} and believing he was Moshiach.

I do not deny that there are some who do believe this. But here, in California, I know at least four Chabad Rabbis pretty personally {I have their phone #s and know where they live}.... I have asked each one about it, and they do not believe he was Moshiach. As it is clear that Moshiach must complete a mission and Rebbe did not do so, he cannot be Moshiach. That is what Rambam said about Moshiach, he will accomplish the mission in one lifetime.

I do not listen to rabbis who knock Chassidus. I used to listen to Rabbi Mizrachi but have since ceased doing so once he laid into Breslov for their pilgrimage to Rabbi Nachmans grave in Uman. I believe that there may be some questions about whether one should go on Rosh Hashana, but I do not believe it amounts to idolatry.

There is one strange issue with Chabad. I myself do not have any images of man or animals in my home {I believe I hold a strict interpretation of making images}.... But at every Chabad house there is a painting of Rebbe.... I think it is a little bit questionable...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Chabad and Jewish Messianism [Machon Shilo Shiur]
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2011, 01:55:54 AM »
There is not a single Jewish organization which does as much good for the Jewish people than Chabad does {possibly OU and NCSY} . I am entirely grateful for the many Shabbatons and the Rabbis who make themselves available to answer questions. I myself am confident that they are not leading me on a path towards idolatry.

I certainly believe that Moshiach is coming, and I do believe that he is coming soon. I believe that we are witnessing the birth pangs of Moshiach.

I believe that Chassidic Judaism holds a lot of Torah truth. It is my minhag, and it is the minhag of my ancestors...

http://www.ou.org
http://www.ncsy.org/
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Chabad and Jewish Messianism [Machon Shilo Shiur]
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2011, 02:01:41 AM »
On another note:

Sometimes I feel that people think we idolize Rabbi Kahane... He was nifter over 20 years and we have not replaced him... He is still OUR rabbi in some respects...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Chabad and Jewish Messianism [Machon Shilo Shiur]
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2011, 02:16:05 AM »
On a slightly similar note I would like to explain what Chassidus is:

http://www.inner.org/chassidut/chassidut.htm



Overview of Chassidut (Chassidus)

Chassidut (or, Chassidus) is the movement within Judaism founded by Rabbi Yisrael Ba'al Shem Tov (5458 – 5520 [1698-1760 CE]. Its purpose is to awaken the Jewish People to its own inner self through the inner dimension of the Torah, thus preparing the way for the advent of Mashiach.

Chassidut is inwardly based upon the ancient doctrinal tradition of Kabbalah. Outwardly it gives new emphasis to the simple and joyful service of God, particularly through prayer and acts of loving-kindness. In Chassidic thought, the abstract and often impenetrable formulae of classical Kabbalah are recast into the psychological terms of human experience.

By using the individual’s own inner experience as an allegorical model for understanding the deepest mysteries of the universe, Chassidut both elevates the consciousness of the ordinary Jew as well as expands the conceptual territory of Kabbalistic thought. Indeed, the classical tradition of Kabbalah can be considered superficial relative to that of Chassidut. By focusing upon immediate experience, Chassidut identifies aspects of Divinity that the highly formal and abstract system of Kabbalistic induction leaves unexplored.

Another way of explaining the differing emphases of Kabbalah and Chassidut is to say that Kabbalah focuses on the "vessels" (kelim) of Creation while Chassidut deals with the "lights"(orot) that fill these vessels. This distinction is apparent even in the names attached to these two mystical traditions: The word Kabbalah in Hebrew is derived from the root kabal, "to serve as a receptacle or vessel," while the word Chassidut is constructed from the root chesed, "lovingkindness," an attribute often referred to symbolically as the light of day.

The Ba'al Shem Tov brought Kabbalistic thought to its historical apex, both in terms of its conceptual refinement and its degree of influence upon the lives of the Jewish populace. It has been said that where Kabbalah is the "soul of the Torah," Chassidut is "the soul within the soul."
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Chabad and Jewish Messianism [Machon Shilo Shiur]
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2011, 02:34:40 AM »
I would also like to say that I respect KWRBTs choice to learn from this Rabbi. I do not denigrate Rabbis no matter what they say just out of principle...

Im sure that the Rabbi believes he is doing good...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ari Ben-Canaan

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Re: Chabad and Jewish Messianism [Machon Shilo Shiur]
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2011, 02:40:53 AM »
It does not matter to me...

I have investigated the matter because of course it was a concern to me. I know what idolatry is, and I know the difference between accepting that a man was a tzadik {which I fully believe that Rebbe Schnerson was} and believing he was Moshiach.

I do not deny that there are some who do believe this. But here, in California, I know at least four Chabad Rabbis pretty personally {I have their phone #s and know where they live}.... I have asked each one about it, and they do not believe he was Moshiach. As it is clear that Moshiach must complete a mission and Rebbe did not do so, he cannot be Moshiach. That is what Rambam said about Moshiach, he will accomplish the mission in one lifetime.

I do not listen to rabbis who knock Chassidus. I used to listen to Rabbi Mizrachi but have since ceased doing so once he laid into Breslov for their pilgrimage to Rabbi Nachmans grave in Uman. I believe that there may be some questions about whether one should go on Rosh Hashana, but I do not believe it amounts to idolatry.

There is one strange issue with Chabad. I myself do not have any images of man or animals in my home {I believe I hold a strict interpretation of making images}.... But at every Chabad house there is a painting of Rebbe.... I think it is a little bit questionable...



Have you ever asked them if their Rebbe is dead?  Or hiding?  Next time I go to Chabad I am going to ask the Chabadniks. :)

I don't disagree that Chabad is a kind or great organization, and has done great things for the Jewish people especially getting Jews to come back to Judaism.  The first time I ever put Tefflilin on was with a Chabadnik.  And the people there are accepting of everyone who comes, even if they are an abecedarian when it comes to Judaism, Hebrew and being in a Shul [I speak from experience].  Chabad, despite the personal feelings of their Rebbe and his refusal to step foot in modern day Israel, are very clear on the Halakcha about "Land for Peace", and shame other Orthodox organizations which turned blind eyes to the matter.

If you have 4 hours of listening time I do recommend the Shiur because it is interesting.  I don't agree with everything this Rabbi says; he bashed on Rebbe Kahane, Kach, and Kahanists for moment in another Shiur and it rubbed me the wrong way greatly [grrrrrrr]!  I've listened to about 10 hours of this Rabbi's Shiurim this week and its been enjoyable so far.  

I am alarmed with the practice of going to Uman and praying to the Breslov Rebbe/coin thing.  I still like Breslov teachings a lot [!], but I will never partake in that custom and frown upon it.

I do not know any Kahanist who believes our Rebbe had magical powers, defies death, will rise again, knows the secret name of G-d, or any that any Kahanist who prays to him or bring coins to his grave in expectation of redemption.  No Rebbe in history has been as defamed as our Rebbe; let them say what they will; an attack on Kahanism is an attack on Judaism!!
"You must keep the arab under your boot or he will be at your throat" -Unknown

"When we tell the Arab, ‘Come, I want to help you and see to your needs,’ he doesn’t look at us like gentlemen. He sees weakness and then the wolf shows what he can do.” - Maimonides

 “I am all peace, but when I speak, they are for war.” -Psalms 120:7

"The difference between a Jewish liberal and a Jewish conservative is that when a Jewish liberal walks out of the Holocaust Museum, he feels, "This shows why we need to have more tolerance and multiculturalism." The Jewish conservative feels, "We should have killed a lot more Nazis, and sooner."" - Philip Klein

Offline edu

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Re: Chabad and Jewish Messianism [Machon Shilo Shiur]
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2011, 02:54:59 AM »
Contrary to the claims of Muman613 that this is just an anti-hasidic conspiracy, there are factions of followers of Rabbi Schneerson who do hold he is the messiah and there are some that go further to claim that make statements about the nature of G-d and the Rebbe that are similar to Christian claims about the nature of G-d and Jeersus. I have heard this personally (concerning G-d and the Rebbe) from at least 2 followers of Rabbi Schneerson although to be fair they are currently I believe a small minority, but if not attacked strongly have the ability to  grow.
For some background
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chabad_messianism
I should stress that there are many Chabad Rabbis that do not believe the Rebbe is now Messiah or turn the Rebbe into the jewish version of Jeersus.
I should also be honest and admit, that I do believe the Chassidic, view of G-d as well as certain non-chassidic thinkers, who hold that everything is G-d and the physical world is just an illusion are departing from the classical Jewish view.
The classical view is that G-d is completely separate from the created world or to quote a brief translated excerpt from Rabbi Saadia gaon in Emunot Vedeot
Now this is a quote of Rabbi Saadia:
"and the third viewpoint is the viewpoint of the person that said that the Creator of the bodies created them from his own essence.
    And I found that these people can't deny the maker, however, it was not acceptable in their opinion according to what they imagine that creation can come to be from nothing [creation ex-nihilo]. And since there is no detail outside of the Creator, they assumed in their minds that he created all the things from his essence.
[A refutation of the third viewpoint]
    Now these individuals, let the Almighty have mercy on you, are more foolish than the first ones. And I saw fit to reveal their foolishness in 13 ways". 
The full Hebrew source can be found at http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/mahshevt/kapah/1a-2.htm#3
[שיטה שלישית: הבריאה מעצמות הבורא]
והשיטה השלישית שיטת מי שאמר כי בורא הגופות בראם מעצמותו.
ומצאתי כי האנשים הללו לא יכלו להכחיש את העושה, ועם זאת לא התקבל על דעתם לפי דמיונם הווית יש מן האין. וכיון שאין מאומה פרט לבורא, הניחו בדעתם שהוא ברא כל הדברים מעצמותו.


[דחיית השיטה השלישית]
ואלה, ירחמך האל, סכלים יותר מן הראשונים. וראיתי לגלות סכלותם בשלושה עשר פנים, מהם הארבעה אשר על בעלי הרוחניות, והם ארבע1 ראיות החידוש, וארבע ראיות הווית יש מן האין. אבל ארבעת סוגי התשובות על קדמות הרוחניות אינם מחייבים אותם2, אבל מחייבים אותם במקומם חמשה סוגים כל אחד מהם יכחישהו השכל.

הראשון מהם שינוי עניין הקדמון אשר אין לו צורה ולא תכונה ולא שיעור ולא גבול ולא מקום ולא זמן, עד שנעשה מקצתו גוף, שיש לו צורה ושיעור ותכונות ומקום וזמן וכל יתר מאורעות הנמצאים3, וזה רחוק מאוד שיעלה על הדעת.

והשני בחירת החכם4 אשר לא יבואהו צער5 ולא יפעל בו פועל ולא ישיגהו משיג, שיעשה מקצתו גוף כדי שישיגוהו המשיגים וכדי שיפעלו בו הפועלים, וכדי שיסכל אחרי החכמה6, ויצטער7 אחרי הנחת, וירעב ויצמא וידאג וייגע8 ויבואוהו שאר הרעות, והוא היה משולל מכל אלה, ואין לו צורך לרכוש בהם תועליות,9 כל שכן שלא יתכן שירכוש בהם תועלת10, אין זה אלא מתכונות ההבל.

והשלישי הצדיק אשר לא יעשה עול, היאך גזר על מקצת חלקיו להביאם בפגעים הללו? וכאשר אני מהרהר בכך מצאתי שלא ימלט מאחד משני דברים:
- או שהוא הביא עליו את זאת בצדק, ולא יתכן שיהא זה בצדק אלא בגלל עברה שעבר או דברים בלתי כשרים שעשה,
- או שיהיה שלא בצדק, ואם כן עושק עשקו ועוול עשה לו11. ועל איזה אופן שיניח המניח את הדבר - ימצאנו בטל ומבוטל12.

והרביעי היאך קבל אותו החלק פקודת יתר החלקים, עד שהוטבע ונתקן ונצטייר ונכנס תחת הצער? האם זה היה בגלל פחד שפחד, או לאיזו תקווה שהוא מקווה? ואם יהיה הדבר על אחד משני העניינים, לא יבצר שיהא טבע הכל שיירא ויקווה, או שזה טבע המקצת בלבד13.
- ואם היה זה טבע הכל מי יתן ואדע ממה הוא ירא ומה הוא מקווה, והרי אין מאומה זולתו.
- ואם היה זה טבע המקצת מאיזו סיבה נעשה המקצת מקווה וירא, והשאר לא יקווה ולא יירא?
- ואם היה שהמקצת קבל פקודת הרוב, לא לתקווה ולא מפחד, הרי זה רע14, כיון שאין לו סיבה ידועה, וכל זה שקר והתעללות15.

והחמישי מי שיכול להחזיר את חלקיו מתוך הצער והוא חכם, לא יתכן שלא יחזירם, ואם נעלה בדמיון שהוא יעשה כן, בטלו הנבראים. ואם אי אפשר בלעדיהם16 בסוף, כמו שלא היה אפשר בלעדיהם בתחילה, הרי החלקים הללו ייעשו גופים במשמרות17, כל חלק מהם יצטייר ויתהווה18 זמן מסוים, ואחר כך ישתחרר ויסתלק, ויבוא חלק אחר במקומו בהתפעלות. ועם זאת לא יתכן שיהא למשמרות הללו סוף, כי הכללות אשר הם ממנה - אין לה סוף.
וזה ממה שהשכל דוחה אותו, ותסרבנה לקבלו המחשבות הבריאות.
ואין לחשוב את הסכלים האלה בבורחם מהווית "יש מן האין", עד אשר קבעו דברי הסכלות הללו, אלא כבורח מן החום אל הרמץ19, ומן המטר אל הצינור המקלח, נוסף למה שדחו מעניין האותות והמופתים.

Offline muman613

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Re: Chabad and Jewish Messianism [Machon Shilo Shiur]
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2011, 10:40:15 AM »
Edu,

I did not deny that there are some who believe this stuff... It is simply my claim that the Chabad organization does not preach or teach or spread the idea that their Rebbe was Moshiach... Simple as that... What some kooks who are in Chabad say does not indict the entire organization.

There is a desire by some to besmirch Chabad.... I have seen these kinds of videos on youtube...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

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Re: Chabad and Jewish Messianism [Machon Shilo Shiur]
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2011, 10:46:13 AM »
Edu,

Do you believe that Hashem is infinite, without boundaries, and without time and space?

If so, is Hashem not everywhere? How can there exist a micron of space which is not filled with some level of Hashems presence? If you disagree you are imposing a limitation on Hashem, you are excluding Hashem and denying his omnipresence...

This is how I see the concept of sparks of divinity being expressed in physicality. Hashem is everywhere, just that in some places he is concealed, and others he is revealed...


PS: The concept of Divine sparks is not a Chabad or Chassidic only concept. It is also found in various Kabbalistic writings...

See this article section "Divine Sparks" : http://vbm-torah.org/archive/bereishit/04bereishit.htm



« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 10:57:14 AM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline edu

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Re: Chabad and Jewish Messianism [Machon Shilo Shiur]
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2011, 02:25:32 PM »
Muman613 you wrote:
Quote
Edu,

Do you believe that Hashem is infinite, without boundaries, and without time and space?

If so, is Hashem not everywhere? How can there exist a micron of space which is not filled with some level of Hashems presence? If you disagree you are imposing a limitation on Hashem, you are excluding Hashem and denying his omnipresence...

Rabbi Saadia Gaon who as I quoted before holds the created world is different than G-d, also states the following
 in Emunot Vedeot :
Quote
And I say: How shall we establish in our understanding his presence in all places, to the point where there is no place that is empty of him. Because he is prior to every place. And if the places would have separated between his parts, he would not have created them, and if there would be situation that the bodies would grab space in whole or partially, he would not have brought them into existence.
  Now since the matter is such, behold his existence after he created the bodies is like his existence before this, without change, unhidden, and without division. And it is, in accordance to what was said: "If a man hides in the hidden places but shall I not see him, says G-d? Is it not so that the Heaven and the Earth I fill".
    Now I draw the matter near for the sake of comprehension, and I will say:
    If not for the fact that some of the walls do not form a barrier against sound, and that we have become accustomed to the fact that glass does not hide the light, and we know that the dirtiness in the world does not harm the light of the sun, we would then be astounded about this. Now behold all these things teach us about the truth of his state {of being}.
In other words, Rabbi Saadia Gaon holds the 2 principles I mentioned earlier do not contradict.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Chabad and Jewish Messianism [Machon Shilo Shiur]
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2011, 11:40:26 AM »
I think this is a bunch of BS.. 

You must not have listened to the shiurim.  Unless you can point to something specific about what he said that is so-called "bs" your comment is a meaningless denial and disrespectful. 

Come on muman, it is well known that many chabad shluchin believe in their rebbe as moschiach or worse they think he was God and pray to him.  Usually the american shluchim won't admit this openly even if they think him messiah.  But notably, such people won't openly deny it either.  And I'm speaking about many but not all, of course.  Like Rabbi bar Hayim says SOME CHABAD ADHERENTS.   But in Israel, the chabadniks are much more open about it with their flags and openly admitting it.  If u go there you'll see this.  But people who interact with chabad , like you or me or Ari usually don't share these beliefs it's just the actual shluchim.

And I don't say any of this because I look for problems with chassidism, its simply ackowledging the facts.



Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Chabad and Jewish Messianism [Machon Shilo Shiur]
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2011, 01:03:08 PM »
Btw Rabbi Wolpe who heads the SOS Israel organization is openly "messichist".    Quite ironically IMO he is one of very few rabbis in Israel who are advocating real common sense measures of what must be done to save the Jewish people.   I say that's ironic because I would think that a rabbi who believes the moschiach came already would be anything but practical.

Btw muman  you say you asked your chabad rabbis point blank if they believe the rebbe is messiah and they answered honestly, but what was their answer?

Offline muman613

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Re: Chabad and Jewish Messianism [Machon Shilo Shiur]
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2011, 02:18:52 PM »
Btw Rabbi Wolpe who heads the SOS Israel organization is openly "messichist".    Quite ironically IMO he is one of very few rabbis in Israel who are advocating real common sense measures of what must be done to save the Jewish people.   I say that's ironic because I would think that a rabbi who believes the moschiach came already would be anything but practical.

Btw muman  you say you asked your chabad rabbis point blank if they believe the rebbe is messiah and they answered honestly, but what was their answer?

As we have said here, the Rabbis relate that there are some Chabad followers who do believe these heretical beliefs. I never denied that some do... I simply state that of all the Rabbis and Chabad houses which I have been to, and Rabbis I have asked, they all explain that it is just a fringe element which believes this.

I have a good friend who grew up in the Chabad community in NY and he confirms that there are some who do believe this. I do not recall the entire conversation but we did have an in-depth discussion on this issue. Maybe I will ask him again and relate what he said.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Chabad and Jewish Messianism [Machon Shilo Shiur]
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2011, 09:45:24 AM »
But I am wondering, did those rabbis themselves (which you asked) personally deny that they themselves believe that.  Ie did any of them say 'No that is not true that the rebbe was /is/will be messiah'   

Or did they just claim its a fringe element and left it at that?

Offline wonga66

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Re: Chabad and Jewish Messianism [Machon Shilo Shiur]
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2011, 01:43:43 PM »
In exactly what year and in what subjects did this Australian R.David Bar Chayim teach in the Jerusalem Kahane Yeshivah?



Would he be allowed to teach there again?

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Chabad and Jewish Messianism [Machon Shilo Shiur]
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2011, 03:16:45 PM »
In exactly what year and in what subjects did this Australian R.David Bar Chayim teach in the Jerusalem Kahane Yeshivah? 

Not sure.  But it was definitely while the Rabbi was still alive.   And he was a Talmud rebbi there.

Quote
Would he be allowed to teach there again?

Who cares?   He does other things now.   I wish them all well.