Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
does the Tanakh explicitly talk about drugs?
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
I think you can generally have an idea of what is healthy and what isn't. Soft drinks are not healthy because of huge amounts of processed sugar inside. So intake should be limited (I don't drink any). If someone claims something is unhealthy they have to be able to give a rational nutritional reason as to why that is so. Not simply make claims about random things. The degree to which one damages himself by having one drink of pepsi is rather small - and its also a functional form of nutrition, not just a poision like a drug- so I don't think the idea that any drink of pepsi is a sin against God is a correct attitude to take. But if you imbibe tons of it in an overall process of letting yourself become unhealthy and living an unhealthy lifestyle where you have no concerns for such things - then that would be sinful.
Zenith:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on February 21, 2011, 11:29:17 AM ---Devarim 4: 9-10
It is a positive commandment to take care of ourselves. Its not a prohibitive statement against damaging oneself but I think its common sense that doing so is negative and doing so is also in violation of this warning.
--- End quote ---
You know, something sounds odd about your interpretation of Deut. 4.9 (i.e. about health): it's as if G-d sends a man (i.e. a prophet) in a place, and when that man steps out of his house, G-d tells him "take care!". I hope such a situation does sound odd to everybody. And I think the reason for that is that it's man's natural instinct to seek his welfare.
About my interpretation of Deut 4.9, that you said:
--- Quote ---You can't even pinpoint what exactly the prohibition is. Look what you wrote: "it's a "take heed not to make yourself idols" thing. It's not about health."
First of all, it's not a prohibition because it commands to do something. (Ie, it's a positive commandment, not a negative commandment - Look at the language).
It's not a "'take heed" not to make idols thing' because that's not "a thing." Is it take heed of something? Or is it don't make idols? Refraining from making idols is an actual action. What do you mean take heed? We already have the prohibition against idol worship, and every time it is said, it is said very much UNLIKE this current expression in Devarim 4:9.
--- End quote ---
Sorry, I was a bit in a hurry, and perhaps I didn't say it properly.
First, let's see the verses:
--- Quote ---7. For what great nation is there that has G-d so near to it, as the Lord our G-d is at all times that we call upon Him?
8. And which great nation is it that has just statutes and ordinances, as this entire Torah, which I set before you this day?
9. But beware and watch yourself very well, lest you forget the things that your eyes saw, and lest these things depart from your heart, all the days of your life, and you shall make them known to your children and to your children's children,
10. the day you stood before the Lord your G-d at Horeb, when the Lord said to me, "Assemble the people for Me, and I will let them hear My words, that they may learn to fear Me all the days that they live on the earth, and that they may teach their children.
11. And you approached and stood at the foot of the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire up to the midst of the heavens, with darkness, a cloud, and opaque darkness.
12. The Lord spoke to you out of the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of the words, but saw no image, just a voice.
13. And He told you His covenant, which He commanded you to do, the Ten Commandments, and He inscribed them on two stone tablets.
14. And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and ordinances, so that you should do them in the land to which you are crossing, to possess.
15. And you shall watch yourselves very well, for you did not see any image on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire.
16. Lest you become corrupt and make for yourselves a graven image, the representation of any form, the likeness of male or female,
.....
--- End quote ---
1. Look at the context and see that it has nothing to do with physical health. The context talks about a totally different subject.
2. It seems that the commandment to "watch yourself" is repeated in verse 15. In verse 9 we are told to watch ourselves because, but doesn't get to say about what you should watch yourself. Instead, the focus is put in what happened, which must be related to the commandment to "watch yourself". And this would make the interpreted "health" commandment sound odd, because it would mean that one should be commanded to keep himself healthy because G-d appeared on the mountain, because He spoke to the people from the fire, because He gave them the Ten Commandments, etc. - it just doesn't make sense this way.
3. Instead, the focus of the context is the keeping of the commandments that were given. So "watch yourself" is meaningful because one must be careful to keep the commandments and must be careful not to fall (e.g. by making idols). And the focus is also put on "watch yourself" not to make yourself idols, because, as the context suggests, G-d did not appear in a human form, so that people would not make any image of Him, and to strengthen His commandment to people not to make and not to worship any idol (perhaps I am not wrong if I understand idol as "a material representation of someone (e.g. G-d, angel, "saint", etc.), for worship").
muman613:
Remember Zenith that there is much more to the Torah than the simple meaning. It is said that there are as many as 70 interpretations of each sentence in the Torah... There is the concept of PaRDeS... The simple meaning {Phat], the deeper interpretation Remes, Drash is integrating the Phat and Remes, and then there is the hidden, the Sod...
So in order to understand deeper levels you must study more...
--- Quote ---http://www.closetotorah.com/tag/moshe-rabbeinu/
The greatness of Moshe’s actions is clearly pristine. The words of Chazal explain that Moshe was zocheh to burial by Hashem himself due to his actions. As was already mentioned there must be a greater significance beyond the fact that Moshe did something that no one else was willing to do…isn’t that what Moshe was all about? The Chazal quote a pasuk in Mishlei that expounds upon the grandeur of his actions, חכם לב יקח מצות. On that pasuk the Baal HaTurim comments that the gematriah of Mitzvos is 612 (if you spell out each letter as he explains), which is the same as the words תלמידי חכמים. It is without question that there is a connection with the word Mitzvos and the 613 Mitzvos in the Torah. It is also interesting to know that the gematriah העצמות is Torah. Additionaly the word atzmos contains the mitzvos. In fact perhaps it is that the עין or eye of the Torah is Mitzvos. That means that the 70 interpretations of Torah as well as its sense of sight is associated with it intrinsic value. The word atzmos means both bone and core or essence. That means that the Talmidei Chachamim and the Mitzvosand the eye of the Will of Hashem is the essence (העצמות).
--- End quote ---
Zenith:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on February 22, 2011, 10:21:01 AM ---Btw I will add to zenith, I'm sure not every single person interprets that verse the same so even if you don't agree that its speaking about health, I still think it is common sense even if the Torag does not say it explicitly. We all agree that suicide is forbidden right? By the same logic to harm oneself is a wicked thing to do.
A person has to use common sense because not everything is written explicitly, we are expected to use our minds, not be robots. And to be overly literalist misses the whole point of living a life dedicated to the Torah.
--- End quote ---
I know it is the common sense of man that it is bad to do harm to himself and to kill himself. Though I don't believe that in any circumstance, a man that suicides is to be condemned by G-d afterwards (by being destroyed, going to hell, whatever). There are people whose lives are too horrible, and I'm sure that we are not much stronger than them to resist more than they do. So "common sense" tells me that we should not regard a man as worth being destroyed (after death) or burnt in hell because we never felt what he felt and never lived what he lived.
About harming yourself... I really have doubts that G-d condemns a diabetes man for eating a cookie (i.e. he's had relish for cookies), though he is forbidden to. And if Pepsi would do some kind of harm, it's hard for me to believe that G-d would condemn a man for drinking Pepsi.
And if you support the idea of not doing anything that harms you, how can you prove the drinking of wine (i.e. alcohol) as ok? And if the chemical ingredients of foods are unhealthy, does that mean that you are supposed to eat only natural foods? consider also that many cannot afford eating only natural foods.
muman613:
--- Quote from: Zenith on February 22, 2011, 05:59:47 PM ---I know it is the common sense of man that it is bad to do harm to himself and to kill himself. Though I don't believe that in any circumstance, a man that suicides is to be condemned by G-d afterwards (by being destroyed, going to hell, whatever). There are people whose lives are too horrible, and I'm sure that we are not much stronger than them to resist more than they do. So "common sense" tells me that we should not regard a man as worth being destroyed (after death) or burnt in hell because we never felt what he felt and never lived what he lived.
About harming yourself... I really have doubts that G-d condemns a diabetes man for eating a cookie (i.e. he's had relish for cookies), though he is forbidden to. And if Pepsi would do some kind of harm, it's hard for me to believe that G-d would condemn a man for drinking Pepsi.
And if you support the idea of not doing anything that harms you, how can you prove the drinking of wine (i.e. alcohol) as ok? And if the chemical ingredients of foods are unhealthy, does that mean that you are supposed to eat only natural foods? consider also that many cannot afford eating only natural foods.
--- End quote ---
Zenith,
All the Jewish faith says is to do things in moderation. A few cakes and cookies will not kill you. A cup of wine on a Friday or Saturday night will not kill you. But smoking cigarettes pretty much is doing damage, and will kill you. Doing cocaine and methamphetamines will kill you. And if you believe, as Jews do, in the concept of reward and punishment {though it seems from your comments that you seriously doubt this}, then we are held accountable for every time we did something with the intention of damaging ourselves. The fact that we are not aware that certain things are killing us is not the point. The point is that if we do something which we know will have damaging consequences then we are commanded not to do it. That does not seem to hard understand to me.
I do believe that a person who kills himself is judged for violating the command to not kill. Why should he not be? We Jews believe that we are judged for the good and for the bad on 613 commandments, including observing Shabbat, eating Kosher, what we say about our fellow Jews, and how we treat the poor, amongst many of the commandments.
PS: Another important concept of the Torah is Pikuei Nefesh {Saving Life}... This concept means that when there is a contradiction between carrying out Jewish law and living, living takes precedence every time. So saving life is the most important Mitzvah of them all...
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