Author Topic: I've been thinking...  (Read 4757 times)

0 Members and 8 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Yaakov Mendel

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Master JTFer
  • *
  • Posts: 1766
I've been thinking...
« on: March 04, 2011, 06:27:10 AM »
I joined this forum about a year ago. Since then, I have had time to listen and discuss. I have been influenced by some of the views expressed here and I have sometimes tried to convince myself that I believed in opinions that did not actually reflect my true personality. Since I have been posting quite a lot here, I think I owe an explanation and a clarification. This is not a turnaround. I still have much respect and support for Chaim Ben Pesach. I still agree with him on the main points of his agenda for the survival of Israel – no new Arab state, support for the settlers’ struggle, resistance against world pressure, the need to speak the truth about Islam and the myth of the Palestinian people, etc. However, there are many topics on which I do not share views that are frequently expressed on this forum.

First, as much as I love the Jewish people and Judaism, I fundamentally trust rational thinking and values of individualism and universalism, and I am opposed to superstition and religious intolerance. As a consequence, there are some views usually expressed on this forum that conflict with my conscience. For example, I would not say : « I was born Jewish, so this Land belongs to me because G-d gave it to me as a member of the Chosen people ». I do think that Jews have the right to have their own state in the land of Israel but this right should not be grounded on a subjective belief that you cannot force the others to share.
Another consequence is that I would certainly not interpret every natural catastrophe that occurs on this planet as a divine punishment. I find it irrational to assume that there is a will and an intention behind a natural phenomenon. Science describes clearly and accurately the chain of causes and consequences that leads to such events.
Another consequence is that I reject the concepts of collective punishment and collective responsibility. Only those who have been proven to be guilty should be punished. If my brother or my neighbour did something evil and there was no way I could have prevented it, it is just not fair that I should bear the consequences of it.
More generally, I have much respect for the Tanach but as a book that stimulates reflexion and that calls for interpretation, not as a list of rules and bans that should be enforced in today’s society exactly as they were written thousands of years ago. The great Jewish tradition is precisely one of critical comment and discussion and I am convinced that this regularly renewed interpretation is one of the main reasons for the survival of Judaism despite all the attempts to wipe it out throughout the centuries.
I support liberty of conscience. I respect atheists as long as they do not express intolerance with regard to religious believers. To me, what defines a cultural community of individuals in a consistent manner is what they believe in, what they fight for, how they choose to live their life, not how they were born nor any other criterion that they did not choose consciously and deliberately and that is imposed upon them.
As far as I’m concerned, my mother is Jewish. But I received little Jewish education when I grew up. When I was younger, I met a wonderful human being. The fact that she was not Jewish did not bother me. I married her because she is a great individual, Jewish or not, and we love each other. Since then, I have rediscovered the importance of my Jewish roots and identity, something that was partly stolen from me when I was young because of the assimilated way I was brought up. I am giving my daughter, who is not Jewish according to the Halacha, a little of what I did not have the chance to receive, to the best of my limited capabilities. I believe there is a good chance that she will convert when she has grown up – although I will respect her decision if she won’t. And now, when I come to this forum, I am told that I am finishing Hitler’s work through my former intermarriage ! Well I have a message for those miserable souls here who equate me with a Nazi : I do not regret for a second marrying my wonderful wife and I will never even think of doing something as ugly as leaving her because she is not Jewish.

There are other things that make me feel uneasy here. For instance, the calls to refuse to serve in the IDF. I know this is a contentious issue and not all JTFers side with this. I have expressed my opinion several times on this matter. I am certainly not satisfied with the way the IDF operates today and I share most of the criticisms usually expressed against the IDF on this forum. However, I just can’t support calls to refuse to serve in the Israeli military for obvious reasons that I have already stated. Besides, as much as I find destructions of settlers’ homes shocking and insane, I find it very exaggerated, to put it mildly, to equate Tsahal with the German SS and to say that Tsahal is sworn to eliminate the Jewish existence in the Land of Israel, as sometimes read on this forum.

One other thing that I do not align myself with here is the number of extremely derogatory comments on « Blacks » in general. Of course I reject the jealousy and the hatred of some African Americans, their « culture » of violence, their claims to affirmative action in order to conceal their own failures, but there is too much blind generalization on this forum against all « Blacks » (as if this referred to a consistently defined group of individuals), that sometimes barely disguises crude racism under the pretense of not being politically correct. In this respect, one of the things that shocked me most was the almost unanimous expression of satisfaction at the earthquake and outbreak of cholera in Haiti, and the bitter criticism of Israel sending a modest rescue team out there, although Haiti has never been an ennemy of Israel and has never done any harm to Israel as far as I know.
Likewise, I do not share the obsession of some JTFers (not all of them) with homosexuals. I am opposed to gay activism and to the promotion of homosexuality, but apart from that I do not essentially judge someone based on their sexual preferences. Not all homosexuals behave like Sodom and Gomorrah, as many posts suggest. I have good friends who are gay. They have been a faithful couple for a long time, they do not indulge in the sexual debauchery fantasized by some here, and they do not brag about their homosexuality.

One last point where I differ from most members of this forum is my position on the economy. I am certainly not a socialist, I am basically in favour of free markets and competition as a more effective way to create wealth, but I am not opposed to some forms of wealth redistribution and I do not systematically view taxes as robbery. I also think that careful government intervention is sometimes needed to regulate the markets.

Finally, I’ve been thinking about the dangers of sustaining Internet-based relationships. Obviously, it can create some form of addiction. It can also lead people to say things that they would not say to each other if they met face to face. That is why I think I will post less from now on.

I know I have tackled many different topics. My point is not to raise a debate on each one but rather to clarify where I now realize I stand on issues that regularly come up here. I am doing this because I do not want to be some sort of misleading character on this forum. If someone feels surprised at some of the things I have written in this thread, I want to emphasize that I never tried to deceive anyone here – except perhaps myself… I am sincerely trying to know who I am, what is good and what is evil, what is right and what is wrong.

« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 03:30:52 PM by Yaakov Mendel »

Offline Zelhar

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10689
Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2011, 07:17:43 AM »
Any paragraph here could become a hot debate. I agree with some of what you say and I am myself a secular cynical skeptic. For example regarding the IDF issue I think that it's not just factually wrong to equate the IDF to the SS, but it is also pragmatically wrong and presents a serious risk of losing the crowed.

But one thing in your attitude and thought I believe is lacking- the realization that the future of the Jewish people is carried on the shoulders of the religious Jews. Secular Jews just cannot survive as a people, so if we care about our people, we better support the religious Jews.

Offline Dr. Dan

  • Forum Administrator
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12593
Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2011, 07:25:42 AM »
Shalom yacov

I hear you. You are entitled to any opinion you want to have. You are not required to agree with everything jtf believes in. it's good to have an open mind though.  I used to have the same opinions as you. There are certain things that still conflict me, but now I just see it as first proving my original opinion right.  There are other things I take as a grain of salt.  Most reasonable people do that.

There are things here that jtfers vehemently disagree with what you do. Take it easy. I think some if them need to also when addressing you personally.

But bottom line, chaim is the man. He will be the most honest person here. Anything private that you feel attacked about, talk to him.  He will allow you to debate him if it is a debate without defaming you.  I know he loves and respects you.  I know I do too. You are overall a good man even though there are some fundamental things you wrote on your post that are either wrong or misunderstood about views of this movement. It's clear that some people here are overzealous, immature or plain angry. Don't take any of it personally. Some posters here have strengths and weaknesses on certain subjects.  Muman for example on his torah topics or kwrbt when he adds logic and explanatio.

Bottom line, the torah is always right and when I disagree it means I don't understand something yet. Interpretation will vary of course in the torah, but still question with that logic of yours and you'll eventually understand.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline mord

  • Global Moderator
  • Platinum JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 25853
Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2011, 08:03:08 AM »
You see Yaakov why i feel harshly to some Jews if you look at this tape                 http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,53602.0.html     









this as well

http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,53601.0.html
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
Shot at 2010-01-03

Offline Yaakov Mendel

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Master JTFer
  • *
  • Posts: 1766
Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2011, 08:11:33 AM »
You see Yaakov why i feel harshly to some Jews if you look at this tape                 http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,53602.0.html     









this as well

http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,53601.0.html

I obviously share 100% your disgust at this kind of Jews... There is no question that I'm completely on board here against them.

Offline mord

  • Global Moderator
  • Platinum JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 25853
Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2011, 08:13:21 AM »
I obviously share 100% your disgust at this kind of Jews... There is no question that I'm completely on board here against them.
So whats the problem
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
Shot at 2010-01-03

Offline Yaakov Mendel

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Master JTFer
  • *
  • Posts: 1766
Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2011, 08:31:33 AM »
Shalom yacov

I hear you. You are entitled to any opinion you want to have. You are not required to agree with everything jtf believes in. it's good to have an open mind though.  I used to have the same opinions as you. There are certain things that still conflict me, but now I just see it as first proving my original opinion right.  There are other things I take as a grain of salt.  Most reasonable people do that.

There are things here that jtfers vehemently disagree with what you do. Take it easy. I think some if them need to also when addressing you personally.

But bottom line, chaim is the man. He will be the most honest person here. Anything private that you feel attacked about, talk to him.  He will allow you to debate him if it is a debate without defaming you.  I know he loves and respects you.  I know I do too. You are overall a good man even though there are some fundamental things you wrote on your post that are either wrong or misunderstood about views of this movement. It's clear that some people here are overzealous, immature or plain angry. Don't take any of it personally. Some posters here have strengths and weaknesses on certain subjects.  Muman for example on his torah topics or kwrbt when he adds logic and explanatio.

Bottom line, the torah is always right and when I disagree it means I don't understand something yet. Interpretation will vary of course in the torah, but still question with that logic of yours and you'll eventually understand.

Thank you Dr Dan for your kind answer.
I definitely agree with you that I might misinterpret the Torah or fail to understand what it says. However, I would not be ready to assume that "the torah is always right". As a general rule, I am wary of any possible form of control of my judgement and of my critical thinking. This rules out nothing, not even the Torah. I try to make as few assumptions as I can and to trust only empirical evidence and sound logic. But that doesn't mean I always succeed in doing so, of course, especially when emotions interfere.

Offline Yaakov Mendel

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Master JTFer
  • *
  • Posts: 1766
Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2011, 08:45:46 AM »
So whats the problem

The "problem", basically, is that I am fundamentally a rationalist, an individualist and a universalist mind, and these principles sometimes conflict with the Torah, which makes me wonder if I really belong here, since this is a religious forum, although I have a lot of admiration and respect for Chaim Ben Pesach and I support his agenda for Israel's survival.

Offline mord

  • Global Moderator
  • Platinum JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 25853
Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2011, 08:48:29 AM »
The "problem", basically, is that I am fundamentally a rationalist, an individualist and a universalist mind, and these principles sometimes conflict with the Torah, which makes me wonder if I really belong here, since this is a religious forum, although I have a lot of admiration and respect for Chaim Ben Pesach and I support his agenda for Israel's survival.
How can this be a strictly religious Forum we have none Jews as well as some agnostics.BTW some Catholics catch hell from a few members yet they just ignore them or mock them
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 08:54:04 AM by mord »
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
Shot at 2010-01-03

Offline Yaakov Mendel

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Master JTFer
  • *
  • Posts: 1766
Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2011, 09:06:10 AM »
How can this be a strictly religious Forum we have none Jews as well as some agnostics.BTW some Catholics catch hell from a few members yet they just ignore them or mock them

Yes, I know that, however it is a fact that Kahanism is a deeply religious vision of the world and history and Chaim himself justifiably defines his movement as a religious movement. The ultimate aim of Kahane, if I'm not mistaken, was to create a true Jewish state and this implied, in his mind, to achieve in Israel a kind of society that would be as close as possible as to what the Tanach prescribes.

Offline mord

  • Global Moderator
  • Platinum JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 25853
Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2011, 09:07:29 AM »
Yes, I know that, however it is a fact that Kahanism is a deeply religious vision of the world and history and Chaim himself justifiably defines his movement as a religious movement. The ultimate aim of Kahane, if I'm not mistaken, was to create a true Jewish state and this implied, in his mind, to achieve in Israel a kind of society that would be as close as possible as to what the Tanach prescribes.
True but without coercion
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
Shot at 2010-01-03

Offline Zelhar

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10689
Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2011, 09:24:58 AM »
Yes, I know that, however it is a fact that Kahanism is a deeply religious vision of the world and history and Chaim himself justifiably defines his movement as a religious movement. The ultimate aim of Kahane, if I'm not mistaken, was to create a true Jewish state and this implied, in his mind, to achieve in Israel a kind of society that would be as close as possible as to what the Tanach prescribes.
And what sort of viable Israel do you support ?

Offline Yaakov Mendel

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Master JTFer
  • *
  • Posts: 1766
Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2011, 09:49:10 AM »
And what sort of viable Israel do you support ?

As regards the territory, Judea and Samaria and Gaza would be annexed. As regards the political institutions, a democratic state with constitutional rights, respecting both religious and secular Jews, open to the outside world. Pretty much a balanced Western-style democracy with strong checks and balances. True freedom of expression, a true multi-party system, an educational system that does not twist the minds of the youth, a truly independent judicial system, media networks that are not controlled by the left.
But the Arabs will have to go first because I obviously do not want them to use the demographic weapon and the majority rule in the political system to become a leading force in Israel. The Constitution will have to guarantee Jewish majority, I don't care whether the world barks "racism" or any other similar libel. Once most Arabs have gone, Israel would have to apply a strictly controlled policy of immigration, to ensure continued Jewish majority.


Offline mord

  • Global Moderator
  • Platinum JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 25853
Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2011, 09:53:48 AM »
As regards the territory, Judea and Samaria and Gaza would be annexed. As regards the political institutions, a democratic state with constitutional rights, respecting both religious and secular Jews, open to the outside world. Pretty much a balanced Western-style democracy with strong checks and balances. True freedom of expression, a true multi-party system, an educational system that does not twist the minds of the youth, a truly independent judicial system, media networks that are not controlled by the left.
But the Arabs will have to go first because I obviously do not want them to use the demographic weapon and the majority rule in the political system to become a leading force in Israel. The Constitution will have to guarantee Jewish majority, I don't care whether the world barks "racism" or any other similar libel. Once most Arabs have gone, Israel would have to apply a strictly controlled policy of immigration, to ensure continued Jewish majority.


Thats what we all want no one can force a secular person to be Religious
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 10:16:50 AM by mord »
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
Shot at 2010-01-03

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2011, 10:10:05 AM »
So you were lying to us?   All along you were saying that your objection to the religious jewish argument about the land of Israel was because you were trying to appeal to seculars and don't think they will buy that.   But now it sounds like you are saying that it is you that simply does not believe in Judaism.  It usually turns out very badly here with people who come on to the forum initially misrepresenting themselves.  There is usually some ulterior motive behind that and they end up obsessively slandering us in the end.    I hope you won't turn out like this yaakov, but I must say I'm surprised and disappointed.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2011, 10:19:46 AM »
Btw I haven't finished reading what you wrote, but I just want to say I  don't see what the big problem is.  Not everyone has to agree here.  And certainly not about EVERYTHING.   There are people here I disagree with all the time but we are friends and support this movement.  Let me give you an example some people here deny evolution, and I think that is nuts.   So what?  There are also some here who agree with me that it happened.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2011, 10:48:59 AM »
I could say something about your opinion of Judaism but I am afraid it will sound insulting or derogatory. But I will say this...

A person who thinks he knows it all, knows better than Hashem, is a person who does not understand the ways of Hashem. This is a very troublesome position for a Jew to be in. If you reject your heritage you lose all the benefits of being a Jew. When you turn your back on Hashem he in turn turns his back on you.

When a man believes that his good fortune comes from his own work and ingenuity he is on a very dangerous path. If every person were to decide what is right and moral in his own eyes there would be no peace in the world. Secular humanism is a religion of self-worship.

It is sad to hear from another Jew who is obviously working against Hashem and his people. That you proudly post that you intermarried is very bad and a terrible influence on any Jew reading this forum. I was married to a non-Jew but I divorced her before I did Teshuva. If I remarry it will certainly be to a Jewess. I don't agree that intermarrying makes one like Hitler but I do see the comparison. You Yaacov have contributed to the decline of the Jewish people. You may rationalize it with your secular humanism thinking but it is true none the less.

I hope that you realize that I pray for you to resolve your issues..



You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Manch

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1869
  • Kahane Tzadak!
Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2011, 10:53:33 AM »
Yes, I know that, however it is a fact that Kahanism is a deeply religious vision of the world and history and Chaim himself justifiably defines his movement as a religious movement. The ultimate aim of Kahane, if I'm not mistaken, was to create a true Jewish state and this implied, in his mind, to achieve in Israel a kind of society that would be as close as possible as to what the Tanach prescribes.
Yakov,
I for, example, agree with a lot of what you said in your post - I am a religious secularist, if I were to define myself. I believe in G-d but am a very secular Jew and do not want to see any type of religious dictate over the lives of Jews in Israel.  Before the coming of the Messiah, I do not want to see a religious state in Israel - I believe that democracy is the best form of government. However, HaRav, ZT"L HY"D Kahane often said that he is "not a politician who is also a rabbi", but he defined himself as "a rabbi who is also a politician." As such, you have to respect his uncompromising position even though you may disagree with it. This was an honest position, albeit not a popular stance.

I think that calling you a nazi for marrying a non-Jew is insane. One could, however, make a logical argument, that spiritually you continue the work of the nazis by marrying a non-Jew and ending future Jewish life.
Hayot Araviot Masrihot

Offline Yaakov Mendel

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Master JTFer
  • *
  • Posts: 1766
Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2011, 11:18:33 AM »
I could say something about your opinion of Judaism but I am afraid it will sound insulting or derogatory. But I will say this...

A person who thinks he knows it all, knows better than Hashem, is a person who does not understand the ways of Hashem. This is a very troublesome position for a Jew to be in. If you reject your heritage you lose all the benefits of being a Jew. When you turn your back on Hashem he in turn turns his back on you.

When a man believes that his good fortune comes from his own work and ingenuity he is on a very dangerous path. If every person were to decide what is right and moral in his own eyes there would be no peace in the world. Secular humanism is a religion of self-worship.

It is sad to hear from another Jew who is obviously working against Hashem and his people. That you proudly post that you intermarried is very bad and a terrible influence on any Jew reading this forum. I was married to a non-Jew but I divorced her before I did Teshuva. If I remarry it will certainly be to a Jewess. I don't agree that intermarrying makes one like Hitler but I do see the comparison. You Yaacov have contributed to the decline of the Jewish people. You may rationalize it with your secular humanism thinking but it is true none the less.

I hope that you realize that I pray for you to resolve your issues..


You see, when I was talking about religious intolerance, superstition and bigotry, I was thinking of individuals who react like you... I thought you had more sensitivity, intelligence and ahavat israel, but it is clear that I was wrong. I did not suspect that you could be so nasty.
Save your prayers, you should curse me instead, since there is so much fear and hatred in your heart. Go ahead, Muman, be a good Jew and curse Yaakov Mendel the traitor ! Hashem will reward you !

Offline Yaakov Mendel

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Master JTFer
  • *
  • Posts: 1766
Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2011, 11:34:08 AM »
So you were lying to us?   All along you were saying that your objection to the religious jewish argument about the land of Israel was because you were trying to appeal to seculars and don't think they will buy that.   But now it sounds like you are saying that it is you that simply does not believe in Judaism.  It usually turns out very badly here with people who come on to the forum initially misrepresenting themselves.  There is usually some ulterior motive behind that and they end up obsessively slandering us in the end.    I hope you won't turn out like this yaakov, but I must say I'm surprised and disappointed.

Don't worry, nothing is going to turn out very badly with me, I am not the kind of person who will "slander you obsessively"... No, I'm not a liar, it is obvious that if I was not sincere I would not have said the things I said in this thread...
As far as I am concerned, I'm not "surprised and disappointed", I am disgusted by your comment.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2011, 11:43:02 AM »
You see, when I was talking about religious intolerance, superstition and bigotry, I was thinking of individuals who react like you... I thought you had more sensitivity, intelligence and ahavat israel, but it is clear that I was wrong. I did not suspect that you could be so nasty.
Save your prayers, you should curse me instead, since there is so much fear and hatred in your heart. Go ahead, Muman, be a good Jew and curse Yaakov Mendel the traitor ! Hashem will reward you !

Yaacov,

Your response is to be expected. I did not express hatred I expressed the simple truth of being Jewish. Without the Torah there would be no Jewish people. If you have any respect for your heritage you would investigate it instead of rejecting it. I did not say that there is no hope for you. But if you really wanted to be Jewish you would seek out the truth of Judaism and not follow secular humanism.

I am not trying to push you away, I am trying to pull you in... If you feel Jewish you should try to find a Rabbi who speaks to your Jewish neshamah.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Yaakov Mendel

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Master JTFer
  • *
  • Posts: 1766
Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2011, 11:51:15 AM »
Yaacov,

Your response is to be expected. I did not express hatred I expressed the simple truth of being Jewish. Without the Torah there would be no Jewish people. If you have any respect for your heritage you would investigate it instead of rejecting it. I did not say that there is no hope for you. But if you really wanted to be Jewish you would seek out the truth of Judaism and not follow secular humanism.

I am not trying to push you away, I am trying to pull you in... If you feel Jewish you should try to find a Rabbi who speaks to your Jewish neshamah.



If that's the way you try to pull in your fellow Jews, you are not doing a favour to Judaism and to the Jewish people. One word of advice if I may : before you harshly condemn those you don't understand, try to listen to them, to open your mind and your heart. You are the one who thinks he knows everything here and who arrogantly and complacently asserts his alleged moral superiority.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2011, 12:27:05 PM »
If that's the way you try to pull in your fellow Jews, you are not doing a favour to Judaism and to the Jewish people. One word of advice if I may : before you harshly condemn those you don't understand, try to listen to them, to open your mind and your heart. You are the one who thinks he knows everything here and who arrogantly and complacently asserts his alleged moral superiority.
Yaacov,

I am trying hard not to appear as you say. Sometimes people hear what they want to hear, and don't hear what they don't want to hear. I am not 'judging' you in particular. I do not know you and I believe that all Jews have merit no matter what mitzvahs they do. The Talmud says that even the most distant Jew has as many 'good deeds' as a pomegranate and I believe it.

I was one of the most distant Jews who rejected his heritage. After my Bar Mitzvah I went down a path which took me to the depths. I got involved with virtually everything prohibited. For almost 20 years I was identifying myself as a 'DeadHead', a follower of the rock-band The Grateful Dead. I got involved with drugs, I got involved with shady women, I got in trouble, etc. etc.

But after 9/11, when my brother was murdered in the WTC, and after my divorce, and after losing a good job I started to become depressed. Then I was told 'Go back to your people' by an African-American Christian neighbor. With that I sought out the local synagogue, a liberal-progressive temple which, thank Hashem, put me back on the path to Hashem. I hooked up with the local Orthodox minyan and ever since then I meet with them to daven and for Shabbat and Yom Tov.

I fully understand and have the greatest patients for Jews. I believe that Teshuva is ALWAYS possible no matter how far from Hashem a Jew has become.

I am sorry if you feel I am being judgmental. I hope you understand what I am trying to say...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Dr. Dan

  • Forum Administrator
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12593
Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2011, 12:55:48 PM »
Thank you Dr Dan for your kind answer.
I definitely agree with you that I might misinterpret the Torah or fail to understand what it says. However, I would not be ready to assume that "the torah is always right". As a general rule, I am wary of any possible form of control of my judgement and of my critical thinking. This rules out nothing, not even the Torah. I try to make as few assumptions as I can and to trust only empirical evidence and sound logic. But that doesn't mean I always succeed in doing so, of course, especially when emotions interfere.

The torah will always be my guide as a man, dentist, and human being. Somethings I might read will interfere with our logic, but sometimes we misread and misinterpret.

However Gd is Greater than our own logic. So my answer to you us to have and develop a sense of faith. In other words, floods for example. Yess' act of nature, but why and when and where specifically is Hashem.  The why, nobody can really say, but are allowed to assume and speculate.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 03:03:00 PM by Dr. Dan »
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2011, 01:09:23 PM »
Don't worry, nothing is going to turn out very badly with me, I am not the kind of person who will "slander you obsessively"... No, I'm not a liar, it is obvious that if I was not sincere I would not have said the things I said in this thread...
As far as I am concerned, I'm not "surprised and disappointed", I am disgusted by your comment.

Disgusted by my comment?  What about it?   I didn't think I said anything objectionable.

I also never called you 'a liar'.  I suggested you lied to us (note the past tense) about a particular thing when you said you were against making the religious Jewish argument for Jewish possession of eretz yisrael because you were trying to appeal to seculars.  Isn't the truth that the argument just doesn't appeal to YOU and that's why you don't like the argument?  Aren't you the one who admitted this is this thread?  I'm only going by what you said.    If it was a lie it was a lie, but I'm just stating ffacts about what has happened with certain people on this forum time after time after time after time on this forum since I've been here for years.

Was this post "disgusting" to you too?