Author Topic: I've been thinking...  (Read 4744 times)

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Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2011, 01:16:08 PM »
Yaacov,

I am trying hard not to appear as you say. Sometimes people hear what they want to hear, and don't hear what they don't want to hear. I am not 'judging' you in particular. I do not know you and I believe that all Jews have merit no matter what mitzvahs they do. The Talmud says that even the most distant Jew has as many 'good deeds' as a pomegranate and I believe it.

I was one of the most distant Jews who rejected his heritage. After my Bar Mitzvah I went down a path which took me to the depths. I got involved with virtually everything prohibited. For almost 20 years I was identifying myself as a 'DeadHead', a follower of the rock-band The Grateful Dead. I got involved with drugs, I got involved with shady women, I got in trouble, etc. etc.

But after 9/11, when my brother was murdered in the WTC, and after my divorce, and after losing a good job I started to become depressed. Then I was told 'Go back to your people' by an African-American Christian neighbor. With that I sought out the local synagogue, a liberal-progressive temple which, thank Hashem, put me back on the path to Hashem. I hooked up with the local Orthodox minyan and ever since then I meet with them to daven and for Shabbat and Yom Tov.

I fully understand and have the greatest patients for Jews. I believe that Teshuva is ALWAYS possible no matter how far from Hashem a Jew has become.

I am sorry if you feel I am being judgmental. I hope you understand what I am trying to say...


Your personal history sheds light on your emotional reactions - as for all the rest of us. You went through a hard time and it seems you have found the personal security you were after through strict religious observance. I am sincerely glad for you because I am sure there is a lot of good in you.
But a dangerous consequence of this psychological process is that you find it hard to accept that another Jew will raise questions that make your feeling of insecurity resurface. You reacted angrily at my remarks because they were calling into question the mental defense mechanisms you have created for yourself. You resent me because you view me as the one you used to be when you were drifiting. But I'm not. I have a different personal history. I have a different background. Yet, I also love the Jewish people and I also respect Judaism, even if my approach probably seems heretic to you.
In general, I believe that religious intolerance derives from fear - fear of the unknown, fear of death, fear of the others, and that fear is very understandable. But what harm am I actually causing by raising questions ? Why shut down one's mind to facts and arguments just because they run counter to certain dogmas ? Is it the right way to try to approach the truth ?




Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2011, 01:17:18 PM »
Disgusted by my comment?  What about it?   I didn't think I said anything objectionable.

I also never called you 'a liar'.  I suggested you lied to us (note the past tense) about a particular thing when you said you were against making the religious Jewish argument for Jewish possession of eretz yisrael because you were trying to appeal to seculars.  Isn't the truth that the argument just doesn't appeal to YOU and that's why you don't like the argument?  Aren't you the one who admitted this is this thread?  I'm only going by what you said.    If it was a lie it was a lie, but I'm just stating ffacts about what has happened with certain people on this forum time after time after time after time on this forum since I've been here for years.

Was this post "disgusting" to you too?

I won't reply to that because you are not being honest.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2011, 01:21:28 PM »
With regards to your intermarriage,what individual on this forum actually called a person that intermarries a nazi?  I think you may have misread someone's comment. 

But even if there is a single person who said such a thing, why did you portray his/her comment as being "JTF opinion" with this thread?   Why do you pick the most outlandish comment someone can possibly make and then act is if the forum as a whole propagates this as a message?   Individuallls can't have a simple disagreement?

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2011, 01:24:05 PM »
I won't reply to that because you are not being honest.

Honest about what?

Please read carefully is all I can say to you.   I really would like to know what is "disgusting " about my comment.   I didn't intend any insult at all, anywhere in my comment!

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2011, 01:28:25 PM »
Honest about what?

Please read carefully is all I can say to you.   I really would like to know what is "disgusting " about my comment.   I didn't intend any insult at all, anywhere in my comment!

Come on, calling me a liar is not offensive ? Insinuating that I will eventually betray this movement and slander you is not offensive ?

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2011, 01:41:28 PM »
Let me put it to you this way-

Given what you wrote here including things you readily admit you've been keeping inside but now want to share with us - is it any wonder that I or anyone else would be surprised by your comment?
Surprise means I was not expecting it.  Unless I was in your head, how would I have known all of this or seen it coming.

Question 2 :  are we all forbidden now from saying we are disappointed that a fellow Jew disbelieves our eternal right to the land of israel as a gift from Hashem?  To be disappointed by that is a swipe at you?

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2011, 01:43:05 PM »
Come on, calling me a liar is not offensive ? Insinuating that I will eventually betray this movement and slander you is not offensive ?

Saying you lied about something is not the same as calling you a liar!

And wasn't it YOU who established w this thread's opening post that you weren't being completely honest with that subject?   So we can't ackowledge facts?   Only you can say it but I can't mention it?

And I expressed hope that u wouldn't turn out like the others.  I think such a reply is warranted given all that you unloaded in this thread.

You read too much into what I said that I did not actually write, it appears.

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2011, 02:26:27 PM »
KWR BT, why won't you stop quibbling ?
Pick whatever answer you want to questions 1 and 2, professor, and gloat over your dialectical triumph. Yeah, I'm a liar, I'm a traitor, I'm erratic, I'm incoherent, I'm simply NOT RELIABLE, Great Master Baal Teshuva.

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2011, 02:40:11 PM »
As regards the territory, Judea and Samaria and Gaza would be annexed. As regards the political institutions, a democratic state with constitutional rights, respecting both religious and secular Jews, open to the outside world. Pretty much a balanced Western-style democracy with strong checks and balances. True freedom of expression, a true multi-party system, an educational system that does not twist the minds of the youth, a truly independent judicial system, media networks that are not controlled by the left.
But the Arabs will have to go first because I obviously do not want them to use the demographic weapon and the majority rule in the political system to become a leading force in Israel. The Constitution will have to guarantee Jewish majority, I don't care whether the world barks "racism" or any other similar libel. Once most Arabs have gone, Israel would have to apply a strictly controlled policy of immigration, to ensure continued Jewish majority.



And with this ideal, how do ensure the next generations will not screw up? the vision you have is similar to beigen's back before he was prime minister.  A secular democratic israel will only go through a vicious cycle that we currently see.  Jews need the torah. even if the don't follow it 100 percent. can't just pick and chose like other religions who try to imitate judaism.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2011, 02:47:02 PM »
And with this ideal, how do ensure the next generations will not screw up? the vision you have is similar to beigen's back before he was prime minister.  A secular democratic israel will only go through a vicious cycle that we currently see.  Jews need the torah. even if the don't follow it 100 percent. can't just pick and chose like other religions who try to imitate judaism.

Nothing can ensure that the next generations will not screw up because we have free will. We will always be under the attraction of yetser ha ra and we will constantly have to fight it while we are in this world.

Offline muman613

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2011, 02:52:50 PM »
I believe that the best thing for a Jew who wants to ensure Jewish continuity is to study the story of Purim. I have learned more and more each year and I am sure that the answer to our problems can be learned from the Megillah.

Jewish unity is very important. We should not be trying to divide the Jewish people. We should be working together to understand each other and bringing ourselves to understand that our fate is only in the hands of Hashem. Our strength does not come from our own work, it comes straight from Hashem himself.

Even when it seems like the end is near things can turn around in a moment. Only because Jews have faith in Hashem and the Chesed/Kindness of Abraham do we merit the Rachaman/Mercy of Hashem. I truly see Hashems hand in the progress of history and I am comforted with the knowledge that Judaism will continue with me, or without me.

As Mordechai said to Esther in the palace:

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16477/jewish/Chapter-4.htm

Quote
12. And they told Esther's words to Mordecai.
13. And Mordecai ordered to reply to Esther, "Do not imagine to yourself that you will escape in the king's house from among all the Jews.
14. For if you remain silent at this time, relief and rescue will arise for the Jews from elsewhere, and you and your father's household will perish; and who knows whether at a time like this you will attain the kingdom?"
15. Then Esther ordered to reply to Mordecai:
16. "Go, assemble all the Jews who are present in Shushan and fast on my behalf, and neither eat nor drink for three days, day and night; also I and my maidens will fast in a like manner; then I will go to the king contrary to the law, and if I perish, I perish."
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2011, 03:19:10 PM »
Nothing can ensure that the next generations will not screw up because we have free will. We will always be under the attraction of yetser ha ra and we will constantly have to fight it while we are in this world.

so why use free will to put a secular jewish state that can mislead jews that it's permissible to act secular or even hellenistic, Gd forbid? As jews we have a duty to build a fence around the torah so not to be tempted by doing the wrong thing. Let someone use free will in private so not to mislead others.

A religious state should not coerce one's private life.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2011, 03:22:32 PM »
Even when it seems like the end is near things can turn around in a moment. Only because Jews have faith in Hashem and the Chesed/Kindness of Abraham do we merit the Rachaman/Mercy of Hashem.

But then, why did so many faithful European Jews, who believed in Hashem and the Chesed of Abraham, were gassed, while it was secular Israeli Jews imbued with the socialist ideology of David Ben Gurion and Golda Meir, many of them having little faith in Hashem, who survived another attempt to wipe out the Jewish people ? Doesn't this fact suggest that the survival of the Jews essentially depends on their ability to defend themselves militarily rather than on their strict religious observance ?

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2011, 03:23:29 PM »
so why use free will to put a secular jewish state that can mislead jews that it's permissible to act secular or even hellenistic, Gd forbid? As jews we have a duty to build a fence around the torah so not to be tempted by doing the wrong thing. Let someone use free will in private so not to mislead others.

A religious state should not coerce one's private life.

What do you mean by a religious state ?

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2011, 03:34:42 PM »
As far as marrying a non jew, the right thing to do is divorce her.  I should add the right thing for a jew is live in eretz yisrael and be shomer shabat.i can acknowledge as a jew those two things are logically correct. Except I dont live in israel nor keep shabat appropriately. I have free will and hope in the future I have the strength to do those things. I think it's wrong to say, "I'll pick and choose since I'm a humanist."  That misses the whole point of being a jew.

So as far as intermarrying, I can't tell you how to change it. You still love your wife and there other issues to deal with that are not simple nor practical, just like not getting up and making a huge move to israel.

Bottom line it's wrong to reject parts of judaism because it doesn't fit the way you live. Doing that is just plain islam.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline muman613

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2011, 03:41:12 PM »
But then, why did so many faithful European Jews, who believed in Hashem and the Chesed of Abraham, were gassed, while it was secular Israeli Jews imbued with the socialist ideology of David Ben Gurion and Golda Meir, many of them having little faith in Hashem, who survived another attempt to wipe out the Jewish people ? Doesn't this fact suggest that the survival of the Jews essentially depends on their ability to defend themselves militarily rather than on their strict religious observance ?

No I think you are looking at the situation the wrong way. Look at the shaky ground that the Jews in the secular state are living in. This is not the 'Jewish state' which we have longed for, our parents had dreamed about. The current state is a bolshevik hell-hole which will not stand as it is. This state of Israel is a wicked state which is oppressing its Jews in order to keep the nations happy.

The Germans killed religious and irreligious Jews. There was no separation between the two. This is what happens when the Jewish people fall from the level which Hashem wants us to be at, to be the light unto the nations. During the 1920s-1930s the Jews in Germany were assimilating at an incredible rate. This did not prevent the German pigs from hating us even more. Antisemitism is a disease which has no rational explanation. They hate us if we are rich, if we are poor, if we are powerful, if we are powerless, if we are chosen, if we are assimilated. This was how King Achashveras and his henchman Haman were. The majority of the Jews in Shushan WERE NOT religious Jews. Most of them wanted to attend the party of the King, where they would be led down the path to destruction.

There are many good explanations of why Hashem allowed the Holocaust to happen. For some people it distanced them from him, for others it brought them closer. Hashem has become upset at his people, when this happens he allows the nations to smack us, and it is hoped that this will bring us back.

I feel that understanding this relationship with Hashem is essential to understanding Jewish history.

Please look at the material on Aish.com to learn some insights into the question 'Why the Holocaust?' @ http://www.aish.com/ho/

http://www.aish.com/ho/i/God_Is_Not_a_Babysitter.html

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/108398/jewish/Belief-After-the-Holocaust.htm
Quote
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Faith versus tragedy

The conflict between tragedy and faith is not new. Anybody knowledgeable in Jewish history will realise that our people have undergone the most terrible persecutions and genocide at the hands of many oppressors. The believing Jew of 1940 knew about the pogroms, crusades, destruction of the Temples, he read out aloud on the Seder night, “In each generation they rise over us to destroy us”, and yet it did not shake his faith. Anti-Semitism was nothing new.

The same method by which the Jew of 1940 knew about the past and yet kept his faith could be employed after the Holocaust. The philosophical question of “Shall the Judge of the earth not do justice?” applies just as much to the seemingly meaningless suffering of an individual as to that of six million individuals. If it could be dealt with on an individual basis before the Holocaust, it could be dealt with in the same way afterwards. The difference is one of quantity, but the quality of the question remains the same.

In truth however, Hitler’s Final Solution was something novel in that few people believed that in the 20th Century, when civilisation had reached its intellectual and ethical peak, such genocide was conceivable. Public consensus, supported by the media, reassured us that we could no longer return to the Middle Ages. However, the philosophers and poets of Berlin, with their fine manners and high society, turned into the world’s greatest murderers. The Holocaust was not only perpetrated by monsters, but connived at by an entire nation numbering close to one hundred million people.

The world was silent. One may add, not only silent but on the whole passive, sometimes comfortable with what was taking place, and happy that it was not they, only others, who were carrying out the atrocities.

If anything the story of the Holocaust shows clearly that man may not rely upon his own intellect and his own feelings for righteousness and justice. Those with the highest diplomas and university degrees were often accomplices, if not direct perpetrators, of cold-blooded murder. Man must be accountable. The command, “Thou shalt not kill”, must be premised on “I am the L–rd your G–d.”
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2011, 03:44:44 PM »
But then, why did so many faithful European Jews, who believed in Hashem and the Chesed of Abraham, were gassed, while it was secular Israeli Jews imbued with the socialist ideology of David Ben Gurion and Golda Meir, many of them having little faith in Hashem, who survived another attempt to wipe out the Jewish people ? Doesn't this fact suggest that the survival of the Jews essentially depends on their ability to defend themselves militarily rather than on their strict religious observance ?

You know what? There are answers to this. First off, I believe the afterlife if these victims is so amazing that I don't worry about what happened. I just worry about how to prevent it from happening again. That's why I'm on jtf.

Secondly, if Gd were to reward only the righteous and punish the evil in this world, very few would choose free will to be righteous and just do it for a reward. I try to be the best jew possible because it is the right thing to do. I try not to do bad things because they are unhealthy for my spirit and well being.

Those who suffer and die and were good people are in a better place. Believing in this takes faith and having faith like this is good for my spirit and life. That's why Gd prescribed this thinking for jews like you and me

That's why we are required to believe in the world to come. It's to exercise faith throughout our lives.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2011, 03:50:03 PM »
What do you mean by a religious state ?

The constitution of the jewish state should be the torah, talmud, and have a sanhedrin (a group of 70 torah scholars) with a monarch who is not above the law but to serve Hashem and His people of israel.  This should be the jewish eventuality. Dont know how and when or who.

However in a current ideal state if religious, those who choose to be secular at home should not be coerced or forced to be religious. Better to encourage it.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2011, 03:53:45 PM »
As far as marrying a non jew, the right thing to do is divorce her. 

Sorry Dr Dan but I have to say I strongly disagree on this. I would find it utterly despicable to suddenly dump my wife although we have a daughter and we love each other just because she is not Jewish and I have got back to my Jewish roots and identity since we married. There is no way I am ever going to do such a thing unless I start losing any sense of good and evil.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2011, 03:58:21 PM »
KWR BT, why won't you stop quibbling ?
Pick whatever answer you want to questions 1 and 2, professor, and gloat over your dialectical triumph. Yeah, I'm a liar, I'm a traitor, I'm erratic, I'm incoherent, I'm simply NOT RELIABLE, Great Master Baal Teshuva.

I never said any of this stuff.  You saw something in my post that wasn't there and you reacted irrationally because you're in a defensive posture.  Why I'm "quibbling" is because I think you misinterpreted my comment as an attack on you and I don't intend to attack you.

Why did you put all those terms into my mouth which I never said about you?  Is it because since I'm a religious Jew on the forum you perceive me as an enemy from this point forward?   If so I think you should reconsider.

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2011, 04:01:32 PM »
Sorry Dr Dan but I have to say I strongly disagree on this. I would find it utterly despicable to suddenly dump my wife although we have a daughter and we love each other just because she is not Jewish and I have got back to my Jewish roots and identity since we married. There is no way I am ever going to do such a thing unless I start losing any sense of good and evil.

Did you read what I wrote after that? Read it again.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2011, 04:05:27 PM »
You know, its bad enough when I botch up by saying the wrong things or not being sensitive enough to someone etc, but I really don't need someone to create even more mistakes (and hateful things) which I never even said or thought and attribute them to me like I'm some cartoon character whose words can simply be anticipated and made up by anyone.

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #47 on: March 04, 2011, 04:10:56 PM »
You know, its bad enough when I botch up by saying the wrong things or not being sensitive enough to someone etc, but I really don't need someone to create even more mistakes (and hateful things) which I never even said or thought and attribute them to me like I'm some cartoon character whose words can simply be anticipated and made up by anyone.

Kwrbt, take it easy. sometimes we choose words or sentences that are interpreted to be attacks when the intention is not to attack.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2011, 04:18:23 PM »
You know what? There are answers to this. First off, I believe the afterlife if these victims is so amazing that I don't worry about what happened. I just worry about how to prevent it from happening again. That's why I'm on jtf.

Secondly, if Gd were to reward only the righteous and punish the evil in this world, very few would choose free will to be righteous and just do it for a reward. I try to be the best jew possible because it is the right thing to do. I try not to do bad things because they are unhealthy for my spirit and well being.

Those who suffer and die and were good people are in a better place. Believing in this takes faith and having faith like this is good for my spirit and life. That's why Gd prescribed this thinking for jews like you and me

That's why we are required to believe in the world to come. It's to exercise faith throughout our lives.

I hope what you are saying is true, although we ought to be careful that sometimes we assume that some things are true just because that is how we want reality to be, but it might be only an illusion, a tale we need to tell ourselves because the truth is too hard to confront.
I want to believe what you are saying too because I just can't stand thinking about the possibility that all these people died for no purpose.
More generally, I believe that there is a world to come in which there is true justice, because otherwise life just doesn't make sense.

However, if you worry about how to prevent a genocide from happening again, I suppose you agree that it is essential for Jews to make sure they keep up a well-equipped, well-trained and disciplined army, with a good strategy and a fierce determination to survive.

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: I've been thinking...
« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2011, 04:20:51 PM »
Did you read what I wrote after that? Read it again.

I thought the sentence I quoted meant you think that I must leave my wife but I'm sorry if I misunderstood you.