The future punishment of some Haredim?

[wonga66]

There are c2 million Haredim (ie black-coated Orthodox Jews) in the world, and quickly increasing.

The inherited tradition of 75% of them is not to be sympathetic towards religious nor irreligious Zionism. But they are not activist against it.

But about 5% of them are strongly antagonistic towards it.

To the point of actually travelling to a murderous genocidal Amolekite Haman like Ahmadinejad to give him a brochoh & encouraging him!



These are Orthodox Jews who keep everything: Torah study, Tefillin, Shaatnez, Kashrus, Tefilloh, Family Purity, Pidyon Haben, Shabbes, etc etc far more punctilliously, withy more fervour and emunah, and with all the Halachic minutiae, than anyone on this forum.

This of course does not mean that they are not misguided/dangerous/criminally reckless/outright reshoyim.

What would R.Kahane have deemed as being their appropriate punishment/atonement under a future Kahanist government of that 5%?

What would an Israeli PM Chaim do with them, if anything: Compulsory Kahanist reeducation? Public shaming and recanting? Cherem? Jail? Flogging? Expulsion? Or even execution?

Or nothing at all, & leave it up to Hashem?

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

They're not Haredim you sub-human fart

[The One and Only Mo]

They are considered as a "rodef"; somebody chasing after you to kill you who you are commanded to stop (gemara in sanhedrin discusses further). So although they may keep most mitzvos that doesn't take away their status of "rodef". They want all Jews to die who settle in Israel. So they still get credit for keeping mitzvos like the rest of us, one doesn't have to do with the other, but they are also committing sins of treason among other things. Don't be fooled by their exterior. The Neturei Karta, like any self hating Jew, is worse than any Arab, Nazi, or anti-semite!

[Yaakov Mendel]

I think that the filthy traitors of Naturei Karta should at least be banned on Israeli soil and that the great rabbinical authorities of Israel should officially ostracize them.  

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

These are Orthodox Jews who keep everything: Torah study, Tefillin, Shaatnez, Kashrus, Tefilloh, Family Purity, Pidyon Haben, Shabbes, etc etc far more punctilliously, withy more fervour and emunah, and with all the Halachic minutiae, than anyone on this forum.

 
1.  That is not true.

2.  You have no way to know it either way!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

To answer your question:  they will be kicked out of Israel along with peace now and the arabs

[Zelhar]

 
1.  That is not true.

2.  You have no way to know it either way!

Naturei Karta learn Judaism from "Der Stürmer" which is also why they try to mimic the "Jewish look" as portrayed in Der Stürmer's caricatures.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Still surprised to see so many members taking Wongay's bait. Next time he posts this tripe just post some pics of attractive women so that he can go throw up.

[muman613]

This is ridiculous. NK are not Charedim... They are rodefs of the worst kind. Gehinnom is too good for these rejects.

[Raulmarrio2000]

1- The opposition or even activism against Zionism (if based in the idea that Redemption must come first) is a valid opinion within hallacha and there is no sin in that as far as it is preached ONLY INSIDE the Jewish People. (Not supporting the enemies's claim to EY)
2-Those who speak eveil against Zionists or any other Jews before the enemy encouraging that enemy to attack, could qualify as Malshinim (not rodefim, since a rodef is someone who persecutes his fellow Jews by himself), and if they go even further and claim that their attitude is hallachically correct, it might render them heretics as well. But only a qualified Beis Din could detrmine if they fall in that categories of Malshinim and heretics.
3- Kahanism has no authority to judge them according to hallacha. It can only be done by a qualified Beis Din, and the only punishment which can be applied without a valid Sanhedrin is just a Cherem. But a Kahanist Govt. in Israel could  enact secular security laws preventing them to make alyiah, expelling them from Israel, or perhaps jailing them in some individual cases.
4- If they are in fact comitting Malshinut (I cannot tell that, only a Rabbanut could tell) then they are not keeping all the mitzvot. They would be violating one of the most important. But I believe that, in this case, when their attitude has been observed over a long period of time, and hasn't casued an immediate danger to Jews.(I have heard that some of them claim that their attitude of befreinding the enemy could save Jewish lives). As it's impossible to know their intentions, they  they would only be guilty if a Beis Din issues a psak on them and they refuse to abide by it.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

1- The opposition or even activism against Zionism (if based in the idea that Redemption must come first) is a valid opinion within hallacha and there is no sin in that as far as it is preached ONLY INSIDE the Jewish People. (Not supporting the enemies's claim to EY)
2-Those who speak eveil against Zionists or any other Jews before the enemy encouraging that enemy to attack, could qualify as Malshinim (not rodefim, since a rodef is someone who persecutes his fellow Jews by himself), and if they go even further and claim that their attitude is hallachically correct, it might render them heretics as well. But only a qualified Beis Din could detrmine if they fall in that categories of Malshinim and heretics.
3- Kahanism has no authority to judge them according to hallacha. It can only be done by a qualified Beis Din, and the only punishment which can be applied without a valid Sanhedrin is just a Cherem. But a Kahanist Govt. in Israel could  enact secular security laws preventing them to make alyiah, expelling them from Israel, or perhaps jailing them in some individual cases.
4- If they are in fact comitting Malshinut (I cannot tell that, only a Rabbanut could tell) then they are not keeping all the mitzvot. They would be violating one of the most important. But I believe that, in this case, when their attitude has been observed over a long period of time, and hasn't casued an immediate danger to Jews.(I have heard that some of them claim that their attitude of befreinding the enemy could save Jewish lives). As it's impossible to know their intentions, they  they would only be guilty if a Beis Din issues a psak on them and they refuse to abide by it.

Your comment strikes me as quite odd.   These are people (naturei karta) who go to iran and encourage ahmed to nuke israel.   There is really little question or uncertainty as to their status, except to a complete fool.    They will be sent packing at very least if not to the gallows.

[wonga66]

Even worse than the Jerusalem Neturei Karta are the English Neturei Karta from Manchester!

[Raulmarrio2000]

Your comment strikes me as quite odd.   These are people (naturei karta) who go to iran and encourage ahmed to nuke israel.   There is really little question or uncertainty as to their status, except to a complete fool.    They will be sent packing at very least if not to the gallows.

I am not expert on Hallacha, but the Hallachic standards of proof to punish someone are quite more stringent than civil or penal secular codes. That's why Cherem is so rare. And the original post asked about flogging or execution which, in case there were a Sanhedrin to aplly them, would require even more stringencies. I have heard that even some anti-Zionist groups have ostracised some NK leaders, and judging by some articles NK has in their web, it seems a quite justified measure. But, as we are no Hallachic authority and cannot do anything about them, it's far better to keep silent and avoid mistakes. There is a rule that a Jew must follow his Rav as long as he cannot undoubtedly know his decisons are wrong, so most NK individuals would be innocent, especially if their leaders have told them that their attitude could save lives.

[wonga66]

A Melech/Nasi has the Halachic ability to have someone put to death even if he was absolved by the Sanhedrin: "You Jewish traitors at the time of a Kahanist Government will be executed immediately!" (Yosef Ben Meir z"l, 2001).

For having gone mouth to mouth & tongued Ahmadinejad, these Neturei Karta will jus' have to be taken out! All their families' & children's pleas, their 'Shma Yisraels' and their vidduiyim will be of no avail! The Honour of Hashem & Torah & Yisrael will not even entitle them to be shown rachmonus.

[Meerkat]

jailtime should suffice, either that or deportation into Gaza

[Raulmarrio2000]

I think that any honest secular judge, having to impartially apply the anti-hate-speech laws in many Western countries, Argentine Federal Antidiscrimination Law, for instance, would have no other alternative than sending those NK demonstrators to jail. Publicly stating that being Zionist (believing in Israel's right to exist) equals massacre is a clear example of hate speech and incitement to violence against freedom of thought.
But those suggestions about Kahanism taking Hallacha on their own hands, appointing Melachim/Nassim, and applying Hallachic executions are out of place. It's well known that only a Sanhedrin can apply those penalties, and there will be no King of Israel till the Moshiach, according to Judaism.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I am not expert on Hallacha, but the Hallachic standards of proof to punish someone are quite more stringent than civil or penal secular codes. That's why Cherem is so rare. And the original post asked about flogging or execution which, in case there were a Sanhedrin to aplly them, would require even more stringencies. I have heard that even some anti-Zionist groups have ostracised some NK leaders, and judging by some articles NK has in their web, it seems a quite justified measure. But, as we are no Hallachic authority and cannot do anything about them, it's far better to keep silent and avoid mistakes. There is a rule that a Jew must follow his Rav as long as he cannot undoubtedly know his decisons are wrong, so most NK individuals would be innocent, especially if their leaders have told them that their attitude could save lives.

Lol.  You hold that anyone who is not a rav cannot express their opinion about traitors (or about anything). -  I strongly disagree with this and you are not even Jewish so who are you to tell Jews they cannot have an opinion?   

[Rubystars]

Interesting how the Iranian guy words that "would you like to be eliminated?" and the NK guy responds in the affimative. Sickness...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

A Melech/Nasi has the Halachic ability to have someone put to death even if he was absolved by the Sanhedrin: 

Indeed, that's a good point, and it is true they have some extralegal powers in the halacha.

[Christian Zionist]

I have a few questions about Haredim:

1.  Do they serve in the IDF?

2.  What is the relationship between Satmar Hasidim and Haredim?  Satmar also opposes the existence of the state of Israel.

3.  Who do they vote for during elections in Israel and in America?

[Zelhar]

I have a few questions about Haredim:

1.  Do they serve in the IDF?

Very Few of them do.

2.  What is the relationship between Satmar Hasidim and Haredim?  Satmar also opposes the existence of the state of Israel.

Satmar is a fringe group of Hasidim. The Haredim are composed of non-hasidim AKA The Litvaks (Lithuanians) / Mitnagdim which are a minority but their rabbis are really the ones who leads many of the Yeshivas and also politically are most influential. The rest of the haredim are hasidim of various "courts" like Chabad, Gur, Breslav etc.

The Sephardi Haredim like Shas are basically mimicing the Litvaks because the Sepharadim have no tradition of Heredism from the exile.

But there are also few fringe groups that are extremely anti-zionist and isolationist. One of them is Ha'Eda Ha'charedit to which Satmar and few other hasiduyot belong and also some mitnagdim. Even more extreme is the Naturei Karta (technically I think they are mitnagdim/non-chasidim).

3.  Who do they vote for during elections in Israel and in America?

In Israel, Ashkenazim vote for Yahadut Hatorah and Sepharadim vote Shas. The Eda Charedit and Naturei Karta don't vote.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I have a few questions about Haredim:

1.  Do they serve in the IDF?

2.  What is the relationship between Satmar Hasidim and Haredim?  Satmar also opposes the existence of the state of Israel.

3.  Who do they vote for during elections in Israel and in America?

Please.

Do not be misled by the idiotic title of this thread.  " The Haredim" is a whole group of people - thousands- with absolutely zero to do with naturei karta which is the subject of this thread.  

So posing these questions here in this thread and others answering them is likely to only confuse people even more.