Katsav sentenced to 7 years in jail: over-punishment?

[wonga66]

The Katsav sentencing reminds one of the advisability of keeping to the Code of Jewish Law's Hilchot Yichud  - "The Laws of Modesty" - that govern with whom and when a Jewish man can be alone with a woman.

Personal female secretaries are a recipe for disaster, laying both open to suspicions and charges.
 
In the Even Haezer section of the Code of Jewish Law there is a section Lihitrachek min hanashim - "On distancing from women", which states tzarich ha'adam lihtrachek min hanashim me'od me'od - "a man must keep away from women very very much"!
 
The Talmud views men and women as two different 'species' who should not over mix: "Do not overly converse with a woman, even one's own wife, let alone another's...he will bring evil on himself, neglect Torah study, and in the end will inherit Gehinnom!" (Pirke Avot 1:5)
 
Like the US White House under Clinton, Israel's Beit Hanassi has been brought somewhat into disrepute. One of the signs of the Chevlei Moshiach - "the Pre-Messianic Pangsl" - is when Beit Hava'ad l'znut   - "the High Offices will become bordellos" (Mishna Sotah 9)!



                                                                        

[wonga66]

The Katsav conviction would never have stood up in a US court.

There were no rape kits, no semen or DNA proof, no physical evidence such as Katsav's hair or clothing, no professionals like doctors or police sex crimes experts, and no rape victims testifying in open court. Instead they remained unidentified in a closed court, their testimony being full of holes; no victim went to the police after being raped, one having being allegedly raped in Katsav's office, and then raped by him again in his hotel room long after, the police opening the investigation years after the alleged crimes allegedly took place etc etc.

Katsav claimed that he was being framed and turned down a simple way out of jail, by resigning the Presidency after confessing to some minor charges. He rejected the deal and chose to be exonerated in court.  No one guilty would take this route.

Who really wanted Katsav out of the Presidency?

[muman613]

It also states the same thing in Sanhedrin 97b:

http://halakhah.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_97.html
[Wherewith thine enemies have reproached, O Lord,' wherewith they have reproached the footsteps of thine anointed.]8  it has been taught, R. Judah said: in the generation when the son of David comes, the house of assembly9  will be for harlots, Galilee in ruins, Gablan lie desolate,10  the border inhabitants11  wander about from city to city, receiving no hospitality, the wisdom of scribes in disfavour, G-d-fearing men despised, people12  be dog-faced,13  and truth entirely lacking, as it is written, Yea, truth faileth, and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey.14  What is meant by 'yea, truth faileth [ne'edereth15  ]'? — The Scholars of the School of Rab16  said: This teaches that it will split up into separate groups17  and depart.18  What is the meaning of 'and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey [mishtollel19  ]'? — The School of R. Shila said: He who departs from evil will be dubbed a fool by his fellow-men.20

[muman613]

Avodah Zara 20 also supports this view:

http://halakhah.com/zarah/zarah_20.html

[It has been stated above.] 'Another interpretation of lo tehannem is, Thou shalt not pronounce them as graceful.' This supports the view of Rab. For Rab said: One is forbidden to say, 'How beautiful is that idolatress!' The following objection was raised: It happened that R. Simeon b. Gamaliel, while standing on a step on the Temple-mount, saw a heathen woman who was particularly beautiful, and he exclaimed: How great are Thy works, O Lord.11  Likewise, when R. Akiba saw the wife of the wicked Tyranus Rufus,12  he spat, then laughed, and then wept. 'Spat,' — because of her originating only from a putrefying drop;13  'laughed,' — because he foresaw that she would become a proselyte and that he would take her to wife; 'wept', that such beauty should [ultimately] decay in the dust. What then about Rab's ruling?14  [He might say that] each of these Rabbis merely offered thanksgiving. For a Master has said: He who beholds goodly creatures should say. 'Blessed be He who hath created such in His universe.'15  But is even mere looking permitted? The following can surely be raised as an objection: 'Thou shalt keep thee from every evil thing16  [implies] that one should not look intently at a beautiful woman, even if she be unmarried, or at a married woman even if she be ugly,


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nor at a woman's gaudy garments, nor at male and female donkeys, or a pig and a sow, or at fowls when they are mating; even if one be all eyes like the Angel of Death! (It is said of the Angel of Death that he is all full of eyes. When a sick person is about to depart, he stands above his head-pillow with his sword drawn out in his hand and a drop of gall hanging on it. As the sick person beholds it, he trembles and opens his mouth [in fright]; he then drops it into his mouth. It is from this that he dies, from this that [the corpse] deteriorates, from this that his face becomes greenish)'? — [What may have happened in those cases was that] the woman turned round a corner.1

[It was said above.] 'Nor at a woman's gaudy garments!' Said R. Judah b. Samuel: Even when these are spread on a wall. Whereon R. Papa remarked: That is if he knows their owner. Said Raba: This is also proved by the wording which reads, 'Nor at a woman's gaudy garments,' but does not read 'at gaudy garments.'2  This proves it. R. Hisda said: That can only refer to such as had been worn,3  but in the case of new ones it does not matter; for were you not to say so, how could women's dresses be handed to a trimmer; he must needs look at them! — And according to your opinion, [how will you explain] the statement of Rab Judah4  that in the case of animals of the same kind one may bring them together [for mating] in the very closest manner; surely he, too, must needs look!5  — But, we assume that what he cares about is only his work; so here, too, it is only his work that he cares about.

http://www.ou.org/shabbat_shalom/article/masechet_shevuot_20a26b/

Avodah Zarah 20a-b - Traditional values

Traditional values regarding sexuality seem somewhat old-fashioned in the modern age. Nevertheless, the Gemara on today's daf (=page) shows a deep understanding of sexual drives and the need to avoid situations that will lead to inappropriate thoughts and actions.

The Gemara quotes a baraita that interprets the passage in Sefer Devarim (23:10) that warns people to avoid all evil things – venishmarta mi-kol davar ra – to be referring specifically to issues of sensuality. Thus the baraita forbids a man from gazing at a beautiful woman, even if she is unmarried, or at any married woman, even an unattractive one. Similarly, the baraita forbids watching animals engage in sexual relations or even looking at the colorful clothing worn by women. In the Gemara, Rav Yehudah quotes Shmuel as extending this prohibition to the clothing itself, even if the clothing is hung out and is not being worn; Rav Papa limits this prohibition, however, only to cases where the man knows the woman to whom these clothes belong.

The emphasis on colored clothing should be understood in the context of the times of the Mishnah. From the limited archaeological evidence that we have, together with information that we find in histories of the time, men's clothing was usually a single color – either the original color of the fibers or else yellowish brown or black. Special clothing would have stripes of a brighter color, like blue or purple. Women's work clothing also was ordinarily a single, plain color. Clothing that women wore for celebratory purposes – or for purposes of intimacy – were specially made to be colorful (see Sefer Shoftim, Judges 5:30).  Such clothing was, therefore, considered to be sexually "suggestive" in-and-of itself.

Thus we find that the Gemara attempts to limit activities that will lead a man to gaze upon out-of-the-ordinary sights that may be sexually stimulating.

[Eden Ben Yitzchak]

This is a day of great embarrassment to the State of Israel!
I also pity Katzav's wife and sons. What a shame...

[wonga66]

It will be interesting to see if Katsav appeals to the High Court and whether they'll accept it.

Meanwhile, Katsav is atoning for having supported Oslo and the Gaza Deportation. The Lubavitcher Rebbe warned that he would have an ignominious end if he supported "land for peace".

[edu]

Given that Israel is a democracy and Torah observant Jews do not seem to be the majority, I think Israel needs a new law setting term limits for judges and allowing for direct elections to dismiss the crooked and biased judges.

Not that I am a supporter of Katzav. But if we let the courts get away with even giving the president a 7 year jail term on such  flimsy evidence, what chance does a true right-winger have when he has to go before these crooks for a trial?

[Aces High]

I'm with Wonga.  Seems like over punishment to me.  Arab murderers of Jews don't do 7 years of prison time. 

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

The Talmud views men and women as two different 'species' who should not over mix: "Do not overly converse with a woman, even one's own wife, let alone another's...he will bring evil on himself, neglect Torah study, and in the end will inherit Gehinnom!" (Pirke Avot 1:5)

Pedofront much, faggot?

[muman613]

Pedofront much, faggot?

That is not called for... I know you don't like wonga but what he said is true. That quote from Pirkie Avot is a warning that men and women should not have social contact outside of marriage. I know it is hard to understand but during my previous marriage I learned that a wife can be a very jealous partner...

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

That is not called for... I know you don't like wonga but what he said is true. That quote from Pirkie Avot is a warning that men and women should not have social contact outside of marriage. I know it is hard to understand but during my previous marriage I learned that a wife can be a very jealous partner...

And I'm supposed to just believe your countless fanciful personal life anecdotes because... ?

[muman613]

And I'm supposed to just believe your countless fanciful personal life anecdotes because... ?

TBF, you don't have to do anything. But I am just telling you that you cannot just call a person a name and expect it to mean anything. You did not address the wisdom of Pirkie avot nor the Talmud...

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

OK, I apologize and bow down before your great Talmudic wisdom--even though Chaim and the other religious Jews of JTF never corroborate your Talmudic interpretations and claims.

[muman613]

There is no interpretation here TBF. Read the words and try to explain to me what is being said. Besides I can quote at least 20 commentaries on this topic.

But aside from your denial of the truth... I will tell you what I believe the final word on this issue is...

Within the marriage intimate relations are a mitzvah, a commandment and obligation... But outside of marriage it is a sin. Because we know that illicit thoughts may lead a man to sin. That is what the Talmud brings in that section of Avodah Zarah I quoted above.

The mitzvah to be fruitful and multiply is accomplished by having intimate relations. But we also are commanded to guard our eyes, in one of the most important prayers the Shema.

See : http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/680284/jewish/Chapter-One.htm

5. Yossei the son of Yochanan of Jerusalem would say: Let your home be wide open, and let the poor be members of your household. And do not engage in excessive conversation with a woman. This is said even regarding one's own wife--how much more so regarding the wife of another. Hence, the sages said: One who excessively converses with a woman causes evil to himself, neglects the study of Torah, and, in the end, inherits purgatory.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

There is no interpretation here TBF. Read the words and try to explain to me what is being said. Besides I can quote at least 20 commentaries on this topic.

But aside from your denial of the truth... I will tell you what I believe the final word on this issue is...

Within the marriage intimate relations are a mitzvah, a commandment and obligation... But outside of marriage it is a sin. Because we know that illicit thoughts may lead a man to sin. That is what the Talmud brings in that section of Avodah Zarah I quoted above.

The mitzvah to be fruitful and multiply is accomplished by having intimate relations. But we also are commanded to guard our eyes, in one of the most important prayers the Shema.

Yeah yeah cut and paste 20 commentaries for me. Yawn.

[muman613]

Yeah yeah cut and paste 20 commentaries for me. Yawn.

You sure are a good debater, aren't you?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

You sure are a good debater, aren't you?

Says the member who said "I don't consider Jews to be white" on his third day here.

[Dr. Dan]

Tpf:

Debate; don't defame. your comments are disruptive with these attacks.

I agree with muman idealistically on this topic. However some jews don't need such an extensive barrier from the torah.

[Chai]

My family knows the President personally and they tell me it was a frame up because they only want Ashkenazim in power. When was the last time we had a Mizrachi prime minster.

The only politician I ever trusted was Rabbi Kahane ZTL though.

In the end weather or not he did it IT is a fact the Israeli government is racists words Mizrachim, but its not as bad as it used to be and is getting better.

[muman613]

My family knows the President personally and they tell me it was a frame up because they only want Ashkenazim in power. When was the last time we had a Mizrachi prime minster.

The only politician I ever trusted was Rabbi Kahane ZTL though.

In the end weather or not he did it IT is a fact the Israeli government is racists words Mizrachim, but its not as bad as it used to be and is getting better.

My Israeli friend at work today thought I was nuts to suggest that he was not guilty. He started accusing me of reading biased sites. To which I also accused him of being a Ha'aretz reader...

I will not speak {any more} Lashon Hara about him at this time...