Author Topic: Pinchas IS Elijah  (Read 7491 times)

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Offline muman613

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Pinchas IS Elijah
« on: April 15, 2011, 01:45:57 AM »
Over the years I have learned many things about our Torah. I try to learn more every year and I hope that before I die I know as much Torah as I needed to know in this lifetime. The Lubavitch Rabbi explained in a Farbrengen in 1982 that a Jew must utilize every moment of life in order to grow and to fulfill as many mitzvot as possible. I have always tried to reach my potential and I know that I can achieve much more than I have already achieved.

One lesson which I find very interesting is the concept that Pinchas, the son of Eliezer, who was a zealot that killed Zimri who was a prince amongst the Children of Israel, he was 'reincarnated' or was a 'gilgul' in Elijah the Prophet. At first glance this statement is very hard to comprehend.

On the surface it seemed that Pinchas's action was not warranted. Even the Children of Israel who knew what happened did not believe that Pinchas should have acted so zealously. Even Pinchas's own ancestry was called into doubt because he was related to Yitro, who was once a priest of idolatry. But Hashem awarded Pinchas with the title of Kohen, and his children would pass on the priesthood of the Kohanim.

Today we recall Elijah the Prophet on Passover and have the custom of leaving a glass of wine over night so that when Elijah the Prophet comes he has wine for kiddush. It is also the Jewish belief that Elijah the Prophet will arrive to harken the coming of the Moshiach. Another Jewish custom is that Elijah the Prophet is present at every Brit Milah...

What appears to be the connection between the two was that Pinchas and Elijah were both zealous for Hashems honor. The Haftorah for Parasha Pinchas recalls the zealous nature of Elijah.

Quote
http://www.jle.org/Parshat%20Pinchas.htm

The HAFTARA (excerpt from the prophets) is from 1 Kings 18:26-19:21.

This section deals with Elijah the prophet, and his escape from the wicked queen Jezebel, who issued a warrant for his execution. Elijah traveled to Mount Horev/ Sinai. There he perceived G-d and described his zealousness in combating idol-worship and decadence in Israel. His contumely regarding the Jewish People was met with G-d’s command to anoint Elisha as a prophet in his stead. Apparently, Elijah had overstepped his bounds and could no longer serve as the people’s prophet.

According to traditional sources, Elijah the Prophet is associated with Pinchas. Whether this is means mystically that Elijah was a reincarnation of Pinchas, or that it is a literary device, the two share the quality of zealousness in preserving the Jewish People’s loyalty to G-d at any cost. The association of these fiery individuals is the rationale for reading this excerpt from the Prophets with the Torah portion of Pinchas.

Quote
http://www.chabad.org/parshah/in-depth/default_cdo/aid/49232/jewish/In-Depth.htm

I give to him My covenant of peace (25:12)

Pinchas is Elijah.

Said G-d to Pinchas: You made peace between Israel and Me in this world, so, too, in the World to Come, it is you who shall make peace between Me and My children. As it is written (Malachi 3:23-24): "Behold, I will send you Elijah the Prophet, before the coming to the great and awesome day of G-d. And he will return the hearts of fathers to children, and the hearts of children to their fathers."

(Yalkut Shimoni)


Quote
http://www.torahtalk.net/Archives/576441.htm

There is a special chair set up at every Bris.  According to Tradition, Elijah the Prophet comes to every Bris.  He comes to testify that the Nation of Israel continues to adhere to the Bris -- the special Covenant of Peace between G-d and Israel.

The Talmud tells us that Elijah the Prophet never died.  He lives on, coming to every Bris, and will some day announce to the world that the Messianic era is about to begin.  Elijah will announce the permanent fulfillment of the Covenant of Peace.

There is an opinion in the Talmud that Elijah the Prophet, the Messenger of the Covenant, is none other than the man with the spear, Pinchas, son of Elazar the son of Aaron the Priest.

http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/1229209/jewish/Haftorah-in-a-Nutshell.htm

So we learn that Hashem loves a yid who stands up for Hashems honor. Today we do not have real zealots because a zealot must not be motivated by personal reasons. A true zealot puts aside his or her own issues and tries his best to bring Hashems will into the world. This means doing the mitzvot, helping and teaching others, giving tzadakah to those in need even if you don't want to do it, rebuking a Jew who is open to being rebuked.

I hope that anyone who reads this is inspired to learn more about Pinchas and Elijah...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Pinchas IS Elijah
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2011, 01:50:16 AM »
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/582,464/What-does-the-Cup-of-Elijah-signify.html

What does the Cup of Elijah signify?

During the Passover Seder we drink four cups of wine (or grape juice). There is a custom to pour a fifth cup, and this cup is known as the "Cup of Elijah." This cup is poured in honor of Elijah the Prophet who comes to visit every seder.

The first mention of this (as far as I know) is in the Chok Yaakov.1
There are several reasons given for this:

(1) Elijah comes to every circumcision. Concerning the Paschal Offering (which today the Afikoman is in lieu of this sacrifice), the Torah says (Exodus 12:48), "no uncircumcised male may eat of it." So we are "inviting" Elijah to be the witness that all present are circumcised.

(2) On the first night of Passover, right before the Jews left Egypt, they all circumcised themselves (see Midrash Rabbah, Shmot 19:5). To commemorate this event, we invite to the seder Elijah, the angel of circumcision.

(3) On the night when we celebrate our redemption from Egypt, we also express our absolute belief in the coming of the Messiah, the one who will lead us out of this exile and take us all back to our land. We are so confident of our imminent redemption, that we actually pour a cup for Elijah, the prophet who will come to announce the arrival of the Messiah.

The four cups of wine correspond to the four expressions of redemption that G-d uses in describing the Exodus (Ex. 6:6-7):

1. “I will take you out…”

2. “I will save you…”

3. “I will redeem you…”

4. “I will take you as a nation….” —Shmot Rabbah chapter 6

But actually there’s a fifth expression that follows immediately afterward: “And I shall bring you into the land…” This expression is commemorated by the Cup of Elijah, since it is he who will herald the Messianic era when we will truly enter the Land in peace.

The five expressions of freedom are various stages in our redemption process. But while the first four are stages that we work on and achieve—the fifth, the final redemption is something that we need G-d to fulfill. We can do everything that leads up to it—and indeed we must. But that final step has to be taken by G-d. That’s why we don’t drink the Cup of Elijah—it is not within our ken.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Pinchas IS Elijah
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2011, 01:58:02 AM »
One more on this topic:

http://www.torah.org/learning/perceptions/5766/pinchas.html

If The Burden Fits, Bear It

FRIDAY NIGHT:

G-d told Moshe, "Pinchas, the son of Elazar, the son of Aharon the priest, stopped My anger . . . Therefore, I give him My covenant of peace. (Bamidbar 25:11-12)

Question: Who were Eliyahu HaNavi's parents?

Answer: He didn't have any.

Rather, as the Ba'al HaTurim points out at the beginning of this week's parshah, Eliyahu was really Pinchas, who was transformed into Eliyahu as a reward for his zealous act at the end of last week's parshah. As to how that can happen, it is a simple case of simply receiving an additional soul for Pinchas, and voila! Instant prophet and future heralder of the Final Redemption.

Next Question: How many Eliyahus are there?

Answer: Two.

Well, not exactly "two" in the conventional sense, as the Arizal explains:

In the case of a soul that comes b'sod ibur after birth, like the Nefesh of Nadav and Avihu that came to Pinchas, another spark must accompany it. Furthermore, this spark must be new to the world and not a reincarnation. Such a spark joined with the Nefesh of Nadav and Avihu which came b'ibur, to unify it with the Nefesh of Pinchas, which was an actual reincarnation. Therefore, another new soul had to come b'ibur in Pinchas called "Eliyahu HaTishbi" from the inhabitants of Gilad, and from the root of Gad, which was a new soul at that time. This was in order to combine the Nefesh of Nadav and Avihu with the Nefesh of Pinchas, a gilgul from the time of his birth. He also required an additional new soul in order to unite the new soul called "Eliyahu HaTishbi" with the rest of the older souls, that is, the Nefesh of Pinchas and those of Nadav and Avihu. Therefore, he received an additional soul called "Eliyahu" from the root of Binyomin, mentioned in Divrei HaYomim in the posuk, "And Ya'areshyah, Eliyahu, and Zichri were the sons of Yerucham" (I Divrei HaYomim 8:27), as Eliyahu himself wrote to the Chachamim, "from the children of the children of Rachel" (Bereishis Rabbah 71:12) . . . Thus we find that four levels were in Pinchas. The first was that of the Nefesh of Pinchas with which he was born, a single soul even though it was the combination of two drops, one from Yosef and one from Yitro. The second level was the Nefesh of Nadav and Avihu, which came b'sod ibur and was also called "one soul," as is known from the Zohar: Nadav and Avihu were two limbs of one body (Acharei Mos 57b). The third was a Nefesh called "Eliyahu HaTishbi" from the root of Gad, and the fourth level was "Eliyahu" from the root of Binyomin. (Sha'ar HaGilgulim, Ch. 32)

What a transformation! As the Arizal explains, it is possible to become "impregnated" (b'ibur) with additional souls during one's lifetime, and upon receiving an additional soul, one is dramatically changed. To what extent the change occurs depends upon the greatness of the soul sent to the person. Usually it is the soul of some righteous person from the past (or even from the present, once they have finished their lower level soul), but in the case of Pinchas it was a brand new soul called "Eliyahu."

However, the problem with an "ibur," a soul that can come during one's lifetime, is that it can also go away during one's lifetime. So, though many people know that Pinchas because Eliyahu, fewer people know that he went back to being Pinchas for a while, as a result of a mistake he made:

Later in history, when the incident of the daughter of Yiftach HaGiladi occurred, they (Eliyahu and Yiftach) were both punished. For, as Chazal say, Yiftach was a judge and he did not want to come to Eliyahu to cancel his vow, and Eliyahu did not want to come to him, for he said, "The one who is suffering must come to the doctor", and thus, between the two of them, the daughter of Yiftach went. Yiftach, who was directly involved in the incident was punished, and as a result everywhere he went he lost limbs, as it says, "They buried him in the cities of Gilad" (Shoftim 12:7) - in the plural. Eliyahu was punished by the departure of the Shechinah, as Chazal say (Bereishis Rabbah 60:3) on the posuk, "And Pinchas the son Elazar had been the supervisor over them in former times, for G-d was with him, (I Divrei HaYomim 9:20), which is talking about Pinchas. Thus, it seems that he had been the "supervisor" over them, and all of a sudden, no longer. After the Nefesh of Nadav and Avihu that had been in him b'ibur was removed from him, it later reincarnated into Shmuel HaNavi, as we will explain. This is the sod of what Chazal say: The "Vav" of "Briti Shalom" (Bamidbar 25:12) is cut. They also say in the Zohar (Acharei Mot), that the "Yud" of "Pinchas" is small (Bamidbar 25:11). Thus, in the incident with Zimri he merited the ibur of Nadav and Avihu, as mentioned in the Zohar (Pinchas 217a), but he lost the ibur as a result of the sin from the daughter of Yiftach. This is why the Vav is "cut," to represent the sefirah of Yesod, which is called "Briti Shalom." It was actually "cut" when he lost the Shechinah and the ibur of Nadav and Avihu. Thus, from that time onward all that remained was the spark from the root of Yosef . . . After this, his name changed to "Eliyahu HaTishbi." Nadav and Avihu had not been rectified in him, and Pinchas, himself from the side of Yitro, had been involved in the sin of the daughter of Yiftach. Eliyahu from the tribe of Binyomin and had only been in him b'ibur in order to join together the other souls. Thus, what remained as the main part was Eliyahu from the root of Gad, and therefore he could no longer be called "Pinchas," but rather, "Eliyahu HaTishbi," alluding that his soul was from the tribe of Gad. (Ibid.)

However, as one would suspect, there is a happy ending to the Pinchas- Eliyahu story, since we open the door for Eliyahu each Pesach, and he also comes to each and every brit.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Pinchas IS Elijah
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2011, 02:08:50 AM »
Ok, I just want to explain how the Children of Israel looked at Pinchas and his zealous act:



http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/535208/jewish/Who-Was-Pinchas.htm

Classic Questions

Why does verse 11 stress the lineage of Pinchas?

Rashi: Because the tribes ridiculed him, saying, "Have you seen the descendant of Puti [i.e., Yisro], whose mother's father fattened calves for idol worship, and yet he killed a leader of one of the tribes of Israel?" Therefore, scripture traces his lineage to Aharon.

Sifsei Chachamim: At the end of Parshas Balak, the Torah already stated that Pinchas was "the son of Elazar the son of Aharon the priest" (25:7), so why does this point need to be stressed again here? Rashi concluded that the Torah stressed Pinchas' lineage again in response to the ridicule he suffered.

Kli Yakar: The tribes ridiculed him because it was difficult to believe that a person whose own father married somebody who was not born Jewish should feel genuine indignation against Zimri for cohabiting with a non-Jewish woman.

Likewise, Pinchas' grandfather was an idolater, so it is difficult to believe that he was genuinely disgusted by the worship of Ba'al Pe'or.

Be'er Basadeh: The tribes felt that the Torah only sanctions a true zealot to execute a person such as Zimri. They found it difficult to believe that his intentions were pure.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Pinchas IS Elijah
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2011, 05:27:23 PM »
So we learn that Hashem loves a yid who stands up for Hashems honor. Today we do not have real zealots because a zealot must not be motivated by personal reasons.

How do you know?      How can anyone possibly know that?

Offline muman613

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Re: Pinchas IS Elijah
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2011, 07:32:20 PM »
How do you know?      How can anyone possibly know that?

Of course I don't know. I just believe that many people who we consider zealots to have ulterior motives.

Obviously Moshiach will be a zealot, may he come soon...

 
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline edu

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Re: Pinchas IS Elijah
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2011, 02:21:15 PM »
I hold by the view that Eliyahu was a descendant of the tribe of Binyamin (Benjamin)
אליהו רבה (איש שלום) פרשה יח

פעם אחת היו רבותינו (וחכמים) יושבים ואומרים [מהיכן אליהו בא], מהן היו אומרים מזרעה של רחל, ומהן היו אומרים מזרעה של לאה, עד שהן יושבין ואומרים בא אליהו ועמד לפניהם, אמר להן, רבותיי, אני איני אלא מזרעה של רחל, לא כך כתוב ביחוסו של בנימין, ועדשה ואליה וזכרי בני ירחם (דהי"א =דברי הימים א'= ח' כ"ז), אמרו לו, לא כהן אתה, לא כך אמרתה לאשה אלמנה, אך עשי לי משם עוגה וגו' (מ"א =מלכים א'= י"ז י"ג), אמר להן, אתו תינוק משיח בן יוסף היה, ורמז רמזתי לעולם שאני יורד תחלה לבבל ואחר כך יבא משיח.

Offline edu

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Re: Pinchas IS Elijah
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2011, 03:08:27 PM »
תלמוד בבלי מסכת ברכות דף כ עמוד א
אמר ליה רב פפא לאביי: מאי שנא ראשונים דאתרחיש להו ניסא, ומאי שנא אנן דלא מתרחיש לן ניסא? אי משום תנויי - בשני דרב יהודה כולי תנויי בנזיקין הוה, ואנן קא מתנינן שיתא סדרי! וכי הוה מטי רב יהודה בעוקצין האשה שכובשת ירק בקדרה ואמרי לה זיתים שכבשן בטרפיהן טהורים אמר: הויות דרב ושמואל קא חזינא הכא, ואנן קא מתנינן בעוקצין תליסר מתיבתא! ואילו רב יהודה, כי הוה שליף חד מסאניה - אתי מטרא, ואנן קא מצערינן נפשין ומצוח קא צוחינן - ולית דמשגח בן! - אמר ליה: קמאי הוו קא מסרי נפשייהו אקדושת השם, אנן לא מסרינן נפשין אקדושת השם. כי הא דרב אדא בר אהבה חזייה לההיא כותית דהות לבישא כרבלתא בשוקא, סבר דבת ישראל היא, קם קרעיה מינה; אגלאי מילתא דכותית היא, שיימוה בארבע מאה זוזי. אמר לה: מה שמך? אמרה ליה: מתון. אמר לה: מתון מתון ארבע מאה זוזי שויא.
Translation by http://halakhah.com/berakoth/berakoth_20.html
Said R. Papa to Abaye: How is it that for the former generations miracles were performed and for us miracles are not performed? It cannot be because of their [superiority in] study, because in the years of Rab Judah the whole of their studies was confined to Nezikin, and we study all six Orders, and when Rab Judah came in [the tractate] 'Ukzin [to the law], 'If a woman presses vegetables in a pot'3  (or, according to others, 'olives pressed with their leaves are clean'),4  he used to say, I see all the difficulties of Rab and Samuel here.5  and we have thirteen versions of Ukzin.6  And yet when Rab Judah drew off one shoe,7  rain used to come, whereas we torment ourselves and cry loudly, and no notice is taken of us!8  He replied: The former generations used to be ready to sacrifice their lives for the sanctity of [God's] name; we do not sacrifice our lives for the sanctity of [God's] name. There was the case of R. Adda b. Ahaba who saw a heathen woman wearing a red head-dress9  in the street, and thinking that she was an Israelite woman, he rose and tore it from her. It turned out that she was a heathen woman, and they fined him four hundred zuz. He said to her: What is your name. She replied: Mathun. Mathun, he said to her: that makes four hundred zuz.10

footnotes
3 'Ukzin, II, 1.
4 Ibid.
5 I.e., this Mishnah itself presents as many difficulties to me as all the rest of the Gemara.
6 I.e., the Mishnah and the various Baraithas and Toseftas. Aliter: We have thirteen colleges which are well versed in it.
7 In preparation for fasting.
8 For fuller notes on the passage, v. Sanh. (Sonc. ed.) p. 728.
9 Aliter: 'mantle'.
10 The Aramaic for two hundred is mathan. Mathun also means 'deliberate'; had he been less rash he would have saved himself 400 zuz; there is here a double play on words.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Pinchas IS Elijah
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2011, 01:26:40 AM »
Ibn Ezra says point blank it's simply not the case that Pinchas is Eliyahu.   Just goes to show that there are (and are allowed to be) different opinions about such matters.

Offline muman613

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Re: Pinchas IS Elijah
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2011, 01:33:10 AM »
Ibn Ezra says point blank it's simply not the case that Pinchas is Eliyahu.   Just goes to show that there are (and are allowed to be) different opinions about such matters.

But most Rabbis I talk to acknowledge that there is the belief that Pinchas is Eliyahu... I asked two Rabbis about it today and they both knew about it, and even before I asked about it one said "Pinchas is Eliyahu"...

Do you know why Ibn Ezra has a divergent opinion?

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Pinchas IS Elijah
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2011, 01:41:12 AM »
I found this discussion on Pinchas and Ibn Ezra...

It appears that Ibn Ezra does not interpret the 'Covenant of Peace' to mean that Pinchas was granted the Kohanim status. Instead he interprets it to mean that Pinchas was protected from the wrath of the families of the people he killed in his zealous act.

Quote
http://www.vbm-torah.org/archive/salt-bemidbar/41-6pinchas.htm
The first part of his reward, however, seems unclear. What does God mean by "My covenant of peace"?

Several different explanations are suggested by the commentators. Many, such as Ibn Ezra, Bekhor Shor, Chizkuni (in his first approach), the Ba'alei Ha-Tosefot, and Abarbanel, explain this as a promise of protection from vengeance on the part of the victims' relatives and supporters. God assured Pinchas that he had nothing to fear from those who vowed to avenge the blood he spilt.

Targum Yonatan Ben Uziel adopts a Midrashic interpretation of this verse, claiming that "My covenant of peace" means that Pinchas will live forever so that he will ultimately announce the final redemption. Targum Yonatan here refers to the famous comment of Chazal (Pirkei De-Rabbi Eliezer 47) identifying the prophet Eliyahu as Pinchas. According to tradition, as mentioned in the final verses of Sefer Malakhi, Eliyahu will come before "the great, awesome day of God" to announce the arrival of the long-awaited redemption. The Targum Yonatan claims that it is to this that "My covenant of peace" refers.


I suppose this is one reason we learn the laws of the the pursuer, that Pinchas could have been killed legally by bystanders because Pinchas was pursuing Zimri to kill him...

http://www.torah.org/learning/olas-shabbos/5759/pinchas.html
Quote
We should note that this is not the conventional "death penalty," which can only be carried out by a Beis Din (Jewish Court). Rather it is a licence given to a zealot to kill the transgressor on the spot. The "halacha of the zealots" contains a number of highly interesting anomalies. The Gemara (ibid. 82a) quotes Rav Chisda who rules that if one comes to Beis Din (Jewish Court) while such a transgression is being committed, to take counsel as to whether he should kill the sinner, the judges do not instruct him to do so. Rabbah bar bar Channah says that not only do we not instruct, but moreover, had Zimri ceased sinning momentarily, and Pinchas were to have killed him then, Pinchas would have been brought to trial, and could be given the death penalty for having killed the sinner. Furthermore, taught Rabbah bar bar Channah, had Zimri turned the tables, and succeeded in killing Pinchas before Pinchas killed him, he would not be liable on Pinchas' account, because Pinchas has the halachic status of a "pursuer," who may be killed in self-defense.

But, as the first link states, the belief that Pinchas is Eliyahu is held by many of the great sages..

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Pinchas IS Elijah
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2011, 01:47:26 AM »
This discussion explains in depth why the sages said this:



http://www.vbm-torah.org/archive/salt-bemidbar/41-6pinchas.htm

Yesterday we made brief reference to the famous notion in Midrashic literature identifying the prophet Eliyahu as Pinchas. As we saw, some commentaries interpret the "covenant of peace" promised to Pinchas (25:12) as referring to long life. This interpretation very well accommodates this concept, that Pinchas was Eliyahu – who was taken the heavens alive, and never died (see Melakhim II, chapter 2). Today we will discuss this topic at further length, making use of some of many sources compiled with remarkable comprehensiveness by Rabbi David Mandelbaum, in his "Pardes Yosef He-chadash" to this parasha.

We begin by reviewing the sources that indeed identify Pinchas as Eliyahu. Pirkei De-Rabbi Eliezer (28) and Yalkut Shimoni (in several places) describe in fuller detail the conversation between G-d and Eliyahu at Mount Chorev (= Sinai) after the prophet's famous, victorious "showdown" against the idolatrous prophets at Mount Carmel. As recorded in the Tanakh (Melakhim I 19:10), Eliyahu tells G-d, "I have acted zealously for the Lord, the G-d of hosts, for the Israelites have forsaken Your covenant… " The Midrash relates G-d's critical response to Eliyahu: "You always act zealously! You were zealous at Shitim… " This zealotry at Shitim is a clear reference to the incident of Ba'al Pe'or, which occurred at Shitim (see Bamidbar 25:1), where Pinchas killed Zimri and Kozbi. Clearly, then, according to these Midrashim, Pinchas and Eliyahu are the same person.

Another interesting source relevant to this discussion is the Targum Yonatan Ben Uziel to Shemot 4:13. Moshe Rabbenu, in his insistent refusal to accept the task of going to Pharaoh to demand Benei Yisrael's release from bondage, pleads with G-d, "Send whomever you will send." Targum Yonatan explains this to mean, "Send the one whom you will eventually send" – meaning, send Pinchas, the one whom you will send in the end of days. Like the passage from Targum Yonatan in Parashat Pinchas that we saw yesterday, this refers to Eliyahu's mission to herald the coming of the final redemption (see final verses of Sefer Malakhi). Clearly, then, Targum Yonatan identifies Pinchas, Moshe's great-nephew, as the prophet Eliyahu. Targum Yonatan makes this point even more explicitly a bit later in Sefer Shemot (6:18), where he writes that Amram, Moshe's father, lived to see his great-grandson, Pinchas, "he is Eliyahu, the high priest, who in the future will be sent to the Israelite exile, in the end of days."

The Yalkut Shimoni in Parashat Balak (771) likewise mentions explicitly that Pinchas is Eliyahu. It records G-d telling Pinchas, "You brought peace between Me and My children – in the future, as well, you are the one who will bring peace between Me and My children." The Midrash proceeds by citing the verse from the end of Sefer Malakhi that indicates that Eliyahu will come to lead Benei Yisrael towards teshuva in anticipation of the final day of judgment.

This identification of Eliyahu as Pinchas may have a basis in the Talmud, as well. The Gemara in Masekhet Bava Metzia (114a-b) tells the story of Rabba Bar Avuha, who once met Eliyahu in a graveyard. The rabbi asked him, "Are you not a kohen?!" He wondered why Eliyahu was permitted in the cemetery if he was a kohen, given the prohibition against kohanim contracting tum'a. Eliyahu replied that the graves wthose of gentiles, and according to Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai, the remains of gentiles render tum'a only upon direct contact; their graves, however, do not generate tum'a. In any event, it emerges from this Gemara that Eliyahu was a kohen, which would obviously accommodate the theory that he was Pinchas. Indeed, Rashi, in his commentary to this Gemara, writes that the Gemara works under this very assumption.

Rabbi Mandelbaum draws further Talmudic evidence from a brief passage in Masekhet Ta'anit. The mishnayot towards the beginning of the second chapter of that Masekhet describe the prayer service conducted during public fast days. One prayer, which has been incorporated into our Selichot service, as well, goes through the Bible and cites examples of where G-d answered the prayers of our ancestors. In this appeal to G-d, we ask that He answer us the way He answered them. The Gemara notes a chronological inconsistency in this prayer, that we mention G-d's favorable response to the prophet Yona before we speak of His having answered the prayers of David and Shelomo. Why would we discuss Yona before we mention David and Shelomo, whom lived many years earlier? Leaving aside the Gemara's response to this question, the Gemara, oddly enough, does not ask why this prayer mentions G-d's answer to Eliyahu's prayer before it talks of David and Shelomo, despite the fact that Eliyahu, too, lived a good deal later than David and Shelomo! Rabbi Mandelbaum suggests that perhaps the Gemara assumed that Eliyahu was Pinchas, who indeed lived before David and Shelomo.

Tomorrow we will iy"H discuss this topic further.

*******

Yesterday, we looked at several sources in Midrashic and Talmudic literature that either state explicitly or imply that Pinchas, the man after whom this week's parasha is named, is the same man as the prophet Eliyahu. Tosefot, in Masekhet Bava Metzia (114b), raise a very simple difficulty on this theory. A famous story is told in Sefer Melakhim I (chapter 17) of how Eliyahu brought back to life the deceased child of the "isha ha-tzarfatit," the woman who had supported Eliyahu during the famine that ravaged the Northern Kingdom of Israel. Eliyahu revived the child by "stretching out over him three times" (verse 21), which seemingly involved direct, physical contact. But if we identify Eliyahu as Pinchas, who, at the beginning of Parashat Pinchas, is blessed with priesthood, how could he come in contact with a dead body? Does this not violate the code of the kohanim, which forbids them from contracting tum'a by touching a dead body? (In truth, the question applies even if Eliyahu did not actually touch the child, since he did enter the same room as the child's body, from which a kohen is likewise forbidden.)

Tosefot give a very simple answer: "This was permitted because of piku'ach nefesh [the interest in saving human life], for he was certain that he would live." In other words, the prohibition forbidding kohanim from coming in contact with a corpse was suspended in this instance in the interest of saving a life.

Many writers, however, have asked why Tosefot added, "for he was certain that he would live." This obviously implies that had Eliyahu entertained any doubts about his power to bring the boy back to life, halakha would have forbade him from making such an attempt by coming in contact with him. Why should this be the case? A well-established halakhic principle allows for the violation of Torah prohibitions (with the well known exception of the three grave prohibitions of adultery, idolatry and murder) for even a reasonable possibility of saving life. For example, in a case of an avalanche or toppled building, Shabbat may violated to continue searching for survivors so long as the possibility remains that dangerously injured people are still alive in the rubble – even if this cannot be ascertained. Why, then, would Tosefot require total confidence on Eliyahu's part in his ability to bring the boy back to life to permit him to violate Torah law for this purpose?

Some have explained Tosefot's position in light of the Rambam's ruling in his commentary to the mishna (Yoma, chapter 8) forbidding violations of halakha to save a life through mystical means ("be-ofen seguli"). Tosefot perhaps concurred with this position, and therefore justified Eliyahu's touching the dead child's body on the basis of the prophet's certitude in the effectiveness of his efforts. Given his assurance in the successful outcome of his attempt to revive the boy, this supernatural means of saving life was, for purposes of halakha, equivalent to a natural means of lifesaving, and was hence permitted even at the expense of the violation of a Torah prohibition.

Other answers are offered, as well, to explain how Eliyahu could come in contact with a dead body. The Shita Mekubetzet (there in Bava Metzia) claims that the child was not, in fact, dead, but rather a "goseis" – on the verge of death, a theory advanced by the Rambam (Moreh Nevukhim 1:42) and cited in the Radak's commentary to Sefer Melakhim. Tosefot did not accept this answer for one of two reasons. They may have felt that, as the Abarbanel argues, the verses there in Melakhim strongly indicate that the child had actually died and was brought back to life by Eliyahu. Alternatively, as Rav David Mandelbaum suggests in his "Pardeis Yoseif He-chadash" to Parashat Pinchas, Tosefot here may follow the position of Tosefot in Masekhet Nazir (4b), that a nazir, who is likewise forbidden from coming in contact with dead bodies, may not touch a "goseis," either, a halakha that may very well apply to a kohen, as well. (Although, as Rabbi Mandelbaum notes, Tosefot later in Nazir – 43a – rule explicitly that a kohen is permitted to come in contact with a "goseis.") For this reason, perhaps, Tosefot could not answer their question regarding the prophet Eliyahu by adopting this assumption, that the child had not died but was rather a "goseis."

Rabbi Mandelbaum cites possible Talmudic proof for the Shita Mekubetzet's claim that the child Eliyahu treated had not actually died, from a brief passage in Masekhet Nida (70b). The Gemara there records three "divrei borut," or foolish questions, posed by the Jews of Alexandria, one of them being, "Does the son of the Shunamite convey tum'a?" They refer here to a famous incident recorded in Melakhim II (chapter 4) where Elisha, the disciple and successor of Eliyahu, brings to life the son of the Shunamite woman – much like Eliyahu had resuscitated the son of the "tzarfatit." The Alexandrians wondered whether the Shunamite's son, who had died and been brought back to life, conveyed tum'a after having come back to life, or if his return to life terminated the ritual impurity he generated as a corpse. Leaving aside the Gemara's response, it is perhaps noteworthy that the people of Alexandria asked specifically about the boy revived by Elisha – but never questioned the status of the child treated by Eliyahu. The explanation, Rabbi Mandelbaum suggests, might be that, as the Shita Mekubetzet claimed, the child of the "tzarfatit" did not actually die, and thus the Alexandrians' question was not relevant to him. (Of course, it is highly questionable whether we can reach definitive conclusions based on a question the Gemara itself terms "foolish.")

We conclude our discussion by briefly mentioning two other explanations suggested to justify Eliyahu's actions. The Tosefot Ha-Rosh (in Bava Metzia) and the Radbaz (teshuvot, 6:301) answer very simply that this incident constituted a "hora'at sha'a," an extraordinary situation that allowed for a one-time breach of the Torah for the sake of "kiddush Hashem." The Radbaz suggests a different explanation, as well, citing Kabbalistic sources who explain that Pinchas and Eliyahu were not, in fact, the same person. When Chazal inform us that "Pinchas is Eliyahu," they meant that on some mystical level, their souls emanated from the same root, but not that there was a single person named Pinchas and subsequently Eliyahu. This will serve as our introduction to tomorrow's topic – the view in Chazal that Piis not Eliyahu. Here we will simply comment that this answer of the Radbaz does not explain the Gemara in Bava Metzia, which, as we saw yesterday, clearly assumed that Eliyahu was a kohen and thus bound by all the laws applicable to kohanim.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline edu

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Re: Pinchas IS Elijah
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2011, 02:33:39 AM »
Yalkut Shimoni brings several opinions what is the tribe of Eliyahu
ילקוט שמעוני מלכים א רמז רח
One of them is that he is from Binyamin and in the end Eliyahu himself testifies that this is true.
Radak to shoftim/judges chapter 20 also brings the two major opinions regarding the lineage of Eliyahu and he ends up saying that the side that holds he is from Binyamin, has a support for their view in Divrei Hayamim/Chronicles.
Malbim on Hoshea chapter 6 verses 7,8 holds that Eliyahu was from Binyamin
Rashi in his commentary to Braishit/Genesis 35:11 which talks about the birth of Binyamin, also says that the prophecy contains a hint to Eliyahu's sacrifice on Mount Carmel
The Midrash Agada spells it out, that Eliyahu was a descendant of Binyamin and the Torah provides a hint to his future actions on Mount Carmel in the way that it describes the birth of Binyamin.
מדרש אגדה (בובר) דברים פרק יב

[יג] השמר לך פן תעלה עולותיך. אין אתה רשאי לעשות לאחר שיבנה, אבל יכול לעשות מזבח כמו שעשה אליהו בהר הכרמל, ומנין למד אליהו לעשות כן בהר הכרמל, ממה שאמר לו הקב"ה ליעקב נוי וקהל גוים יהיה ממך (בראשית לה יא), עתיד לצאת מבנימין בן שיעשה בקהל גוים שיבנה מזבח באיסור הבמות ואני מקבלו, ואליהו משבט בנימן היה, שכן כתיב בספר יחוסין בשבט בנימן (ערשיה) [ויערשיה] ואליה וזכרי בני ירוחם (דה"א ח כז). ערשיה בשעה שהקב"ה מרעיש את העולם על ישראל זוכר ברית אבות והקב"ה מרחם עליהם ולכך נאמר (ואליהו) אשר היה דבר ה' אליו [לאמר] ישראל יהיה שמך (מ"א יח לא), באותה שעה ששם לו הקב"ה זה השם ואמר לו גוי וקהל גוים:

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Pinchas IS Elijah
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2011, 10:55:50 AM »
But most Rabbis I talk to acknowledge that there is the belief that Pinchas is Eliyahu... I asked two Rabbis about it today and they both knew about it, and even before I asked about it one said "Pinchas is Eliyahu"...

Ok.

I also acknowledge that there is such a belief.  But not everyone believes that, nor has to.  Where did I ever say "that belief doesn't exist?"  Since you yourself stated it in this thread that you believe it obviously then it does exist.

Quote

Do you know why Ibn Ezra has a divergent opinion?



As in many cases with the Ibn Ezra, he holds that such a tremendous miracle if it really did happen, would be said explicitly by the Torah.  He has a basic view that we cannot read impossible/improbable miracles into the text if they are not stated there.

Offline muman613

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Re: Pinchas IS Elijah
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2011, 01:01:20 PM »
Ok.

I also acknowledge that there is such a belief.  But not everyone believes that, nor has to.  Where did I ever say "that belief doesn't exist?"  Since you yourself stated it in this thread that you believe it obviously then it does exist.

As in many cases with the Ibn Ezra, he holds that such a tremendous miracle if it really did happen, would be said explicitly by the Torah.  He has a basic view that we cannot read impossible/improbable miracles into the text if they are not stated there.

Interesting, but I find it hard to believe that :

Quote
He has a basic view that we cannot read impossible/improbable miracles into the text if they are not stated there.

I can think of three very good examples that we learned over Pesach which demonstrate miracles which are not explicitly stated in the written Torah.

1) During the reading of the Passover Haggadah we talk about how many plagues Hashem smote Egypt with. Some sages say 50, others 200... Each of the plagues was a miracle in its own right.

2) When we celebrate Shabbat HaGadol we learn that a great miracle happened on that day, yet the Torah says nothing about it...

3) Many of the great Commentators explain how a great miracle happened during the plague of darkness. We have discussed it here at JTF many times, that 4/5 of the Jews in Egypt perished in the plague of darkness. According to some sages as many as 8 MILLION, maybe 12 MILLION Jews died in this plague. That is more Jews than died in the Holocaust... But the Torah does not mention their deaths... The miracle was that the 3 million Jews were able to bury the 8-12 million dead Jews before the plague was done, so the Egyptians did not know what happened...

Each of these miracles is not explicitly stated in the Torah, and I can think of many more which are brought out by Midrash and Gemora.

http://www.aish.com/h/pes/h/48959306.html

Quote
Rabbi Yossi the Galilean said: "How do you know that the Egyptians were struck by 10 plagues in Egypt and 50 plagues at the sea? Because regarding the plagues of Egypt it says: 'The magicians said to Pharaoh, this is the finger of God' (Exodus 8:15). While at the sea it says: 'And the Jewish people saw the great hand which God had used in Egypt, and the people feared God, and they believed in God and in Moses His servant' (Exodus 14:31). How many plagues did they receive with the finger? Ten. Therefore if in Egypt they received 10 plagues then at the sea (when smitten by God's hand) they must have had 50 plagues.'"

Rabbi Yossi the Galilean said there were 50 plagues.

Rabbi Elazar says that the number of plagues was four-fold. This is an allusion to the four-letter Name of God -- Yud, Heh, Vav, Heh -- which represents God's attributes of kindness and mercy. Because in Rabbi Elazar's opinion, the purpose of the plagues was to sensitize the Jewish people to the love and care shown to them by God.

Rabbi Akiva, meanwhile, says that the plagues were primarily for sake of punishing the Egyptians. The number of plagues was therefore five-fold, corresponding to the five letters of Elokim -- the Name of God which represents strict justice.

Multiple Plagues
Rabbi Tom Meyer


Rabbi Yossi the Galilean said: "How do you know that the Egyptians were struck by 10 plagues in Egypt and 50 plagues at the sea? Because regarding the plagues of Egypt it says: ‘The magicians said to Pharaoh, this is the finger of God' (Exodus 8:15). While at the sea it says: ‘And the Jewish people saw the great hand which God had used in Egypt, and the people feared God, and they believed in God and in Moses His servant' (Exodus 14:31). How many plagues did they receive with the finger? Ten. Therefore if in Egypt they received 10 plagues then at the sea (when smitten by God's hand) they must have had 50 plagues."

Many people find this part of the Haggadah confusing. Basically, the idea is that each plague in Egypt was "by the finger of God," and the miracle at the Sea was "the hand of God." So there must have been five times more miracles at the Sea than there were original plagues. It's all rabbinical mathematics – multiply 10 times five.

So what? The Haggadah spoke earlier about the Sages staying up all night talking about the Exodus. What took them so long? They were trying to identify each aspect of how God interacts with us. They were examining details of how choosing spirituality brings a reward, and choosing unnecessary physicality brings a punishment. In Judaism, "reward" doesn't only mean a relief from pain, depression, suffering, anti-Semitism, etc. (although that's part of it). You also get innumerable positive things. And that's why it's so great to be Jewish.

We don't hate the body. Judaism uses the body. It's not the enemy. Just don't get swallowed by it. If God didn't want us to have a body, He wouldn't have put us in this world. But He also doesn't want you to totally surrender to the body. He shows you the consequences -- all the plagues and punishments and suffering. Each plague can damage yourself, damage interpersonal relationships, damage you with God, damage your possessions, damage the ecology and the environment.

Each plague had all these different parts.

The miracle of Shabbat HaGadol:

Quote
http://www.torah.org/learning/olas-shabbos/5758/shabbos-hagadol.html

Shabbos HaGadol
Rabbi Eliyahu Hoffmann


The Great Shabbos

Many reasons are given for the unique name of this week's Shabbos - Shabbos haGadol, the Great Shabbos. After all, aren't all Shabboses great?

The Tur (chapter 430) explains: We find in the Torah (Shemos 12:3) that on the 10th day of Nisan the Jews were commanded to take a sheep and set it aside for the Korban Pesach (Pesach offering). They did so - the head of each family took a sheep and tied it to the foot of his bed. When the Egyptians saw what they were doing, they were mystified. "What are you doing with these sheep?" they asked. "We are putting them aside in order to slaughter them as an offering for Hashem (G-d)," they replied. Now the sheep was the god of the Egyptians, and thus the Egyptians were extremely agitated by the Jews telling them this. Under normal circumstances, they would have incited riots and pogroms against the Jews. Yet, for reasons unknown even to them, they found themselves unable to react. ("For fear [of the Jews] had fallen upon them," (Tehillim/Psalms 105:38).) Now we know that the day Bnei Yisrael (the Jews) left Mitzrayim (Egypt), the 15th day of Nisan, was on a Thursday (Seder Olam). Thus, the miracle of the Egyptians' non-reaction occurred on Shabbos, five days earlier. This is why it is called Shabbos haGadol - because of the Great Miracle which occurred on this Shabbos.

Some question this: If so, why was Shabbos chosen to commemorate this miracle? True, the miracle occurred on Shabbos that year, but wouldn't it have been more appropriate to designate the 10th day of Nisan, no matter when it falls, as the day of commemoration?

They answer that the neis (miracle) only transpired because it was Shabbos. Normally, there would have been nothing so unusual about the Jews putting sheep aside. What caught the Egyptians' eyes was that it was Shabbos, and they knew that the Jews were forbidden to handle live animals on Shabbos. Their interest was piqued, and they asked, and that's how the whole miracle came about. Thus the neis is attributed to Shabbos.


Quote
http://www.torah.org/learning/parsha-insights/5759/bo.html
.
.

That is what was meant by the 'darkness of above'. The heavens are filled with the pure, clear light of clarity and truth. But that brilliant light, for the eye that is not prepared for it, is blinding. It is seen as darkness. Not an absence of light but a tangible darkness that obliterates all.

With this we can understand that the Jews who didn't want to leave Mitzrayim died during this plague of darkness. For those with the potential to see this pure light who instead chose impurity, for them it wasn't simply darkness, it was death.

Rashi adds that they died during the days of darkness in order that the Egyptians wouldn't see them dying and say the Jews were also getting hit like them.

What a glaring example of having clarity before you and choosing to deny it. Choosing darkness. To date, eight plagues had been brought upon them, precisely as Moshe had foretold each time. Mitzrayim was in ruins. The ninth plague is now upon them. They are entrapped in darkness while there is light for the Jews. However, some Jews died! How would that be interpreted by their desperate minds? You see! There really is no G-d! All that has happened so far has not been Hashem punishing us for torturing His nation. It hasn't been His Hand smacking us until we'll finally release His children. The past nine months will be ignored because Jews also died during this ninth plague. Incredible. The darkness that a person can see in the midst of such blinding light.

I am just saying that just because the written Torah doesn't explicitly spell out miracles doesn't necessarily mean that we don't have ample sources to learn that miracles did occur...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Pinchas IS Elijah
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2011, 11:03:54 PM »
I may not have said that clearly enough.  Ibn ezra feels free to argue on chazal in instances where they read in impossible/improbable miracles to the text where they are not said explicitly by the text itself.  One could argue that some of those instances he is simply arguing against a literal interpretation of certain midrashim (the examples you brought from the hagada may well fit that), but nonetheless there are at least a few individual circumstances where he undeniably argues on chazal's view in a matter of this nature.  He has a much more, call it inclusive approach to interpretation.

Modification - Actually in some way it's exclusive.   Exclusive interpretation in the sense that not just any very imaginative improbable event can be read into the text (In other words, his methodology is more exclusive).   But on the other hand it's inclusive in the sense that he holds interpretation of the Torah is not limited strictly to chazal, and other Torah scholars can disagree on matters of interpretation with chazal (so his understanding of the authority of interpretation is more inclusive).
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 10:17:31 PM by Kahane-Was-Right BT »

Offline muman613

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Re: Pinchas IS Elijah
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2011, 03:14:46 PM »
Rabbi Richman discusses this at 3:36 in this video:



You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14