Jewish Thoughts on Celebrating OBLs Destruction

[muman613]

This article from Israel National News does a good job explaining why it is correct, according to Torah Judaism, to rejoice in the destruction of an enemy who is dedicated to destroying the Jewish people.



http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/143953

Interview: Should One Rejoice at an Enemy's' Downfall?
Iyar 2, 5771, 06 May 11 09:25
by David Lev

(Israelnationalnews.com) Is it proper to rejoice in the fall of one's enemy? That question has been on the lips of many in the USA and Israel this week, as Israelis observed the spontaneous joy Americans evinced at the news that arch-terrorist Osama Bin-Laden had been killed.

Even before the news broke close to midnight Washington time on Sunday, rumors had begun spreading on Twitter and Facebook that a daring strike in Pakistan had ended the life of the mastermind behind the 9/11 attacks.

Many Israelis shared in that joy, with some even raising a “lechaim” ["to life"] glass of schnapps to the demise of the man who was responsible for over 3,000 deaths, but some – especially in the mainstream media – were critical of the celebration.

Commenting on the footage of crowds of thousands outside the White House and in Times Square praising the operation, the anchor team on Israel Radio's Reshet Bet questioned whether such joy was permitted. “When Israel eliminates a terrorist, Israelis do not go out and dance in the street,” said morning program anchor Karen Noibach, as she went on to describe the crowd as “young, mostly college students that look like they had something to drink.” Certainly, she implied, older, more responsible people – and Israelis – would not behave that way.

But is celebrating at your enemy's downfall unJewish – or something that should, at best, be restricted to drunk adolescents?

There are those who claim that G-d disapproves of such behavior, citing how a the Pesach Seder Jews use their finger to spill a drop of wine from their winedups as each of the 10 plagues is mentioned, in memory of how the Egyptians, who enslaved and murdered the Jews, were punished in the Exodus.

Clearer insight on this point can be seen from the commentaries on the Song of the Sea (Exodus 15) sung by  Moses after the splitting of the Red Sea during the same Exodus. The Midrash says that the angels wished to sing praises for G-d's drowning of the Egyptians, and He told them to desist, saying:  'My creatures are drowning in the sea, and you are singing songs of praise?'”

G-d told the angels to desist, but he did not stop Moses from singing a song in praise of the destruction of Israel's enemies, nor did he stop Miriam and the women of Israel  from dancing and singing to the refrain "Let us praise the Lord, who has sunk horse and rider in the sea."

The angels did not suffer, but the Jews did, and this Midrash and other sources point to the fact that Judaism sees joy at the fall of one's enemies to be a normal reaction.  Regret, as seen in the spilling of the wine, is for the fact that G-d's creations behaved in ways that made their downfall deserved.

One, however, is not allowed to rejoice in the fall of a personal enemy or rival, according to the biblical Book of Proverbs which states "When your enemy falls, do not rejoice". The word "your" is written in the singular to emphasize that it does not refer to enemies of the Jewish people. The prohibition of revenge (Leviticus 19) is also in the singular and aimed at interpersonal relations.

In fact, a Talmudic midrash criticizes the Jewis people for not celebrating the downfall of their enemy. “The Talmud in Sanhedrin 94a says that G-d wished to make King Hezekiah become the Messiah, and the Assyrians that G-d had defeated into Gog and Magog, the final enemy that will persecute the Jews right before the Messiah's arrival,”  says Rabbi Jay Shabtai of Kfar Saba.

“But G-d changes his mind, after an angel points out that, unlike King David, who sang many praises to G-d for his victories – the book of Psalms is full of them – and was not even allowed to build the Temple, that it would be improper to bestow this honor on Hezekiah, who did not sing a song of praise. The importance of praising G- for his defeat of our enemies is one reason the rabbis instituted the recitation of Moses' Song of the Sea, which praises G-d for decimating the pursuing Egyptians at the Reed Sea, in our daily prayers.”

The Jewish calendar incorporates praise for G-d's – and the Jewish people's – defeat and decimation of their enemies. “The Purim story, of course, is among the most prominent. Many people don't realize that the feasting was set for the day after the Jews killed tens of thousands of their enemies, and put the fear of G-d into those who survived, with many of them converting to Judaism, the Scroll of Esther tells us,” Rabbi Shabtai says, adding, "it's certainly a natural reaction to feel joy at the removal of an enemy who threatens to destroy you.”

And it's a sentiment shared even by those on the left, he says. “I remember that there were many jokes and happiness back in the mid-90's when the Shin Bet killed Yahya Ayyash of the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades with a booby-trapped cellphone. There was plenty of celebrating then by the left, when Rabin was in power."

[muman613]

Well without even going into all the midrashic stuff, it's clear from the Tanakh itself that there are songs rejoicing over the deaths of Israel's enemies. 

But Judaism is more than Tanakh. Tanakh is only the written Torah, but without the Oral Torah we cannot truly understand the written Torah. This is why it is important to demonstrate that Jewish belief is that we should rejoice, even when there are opinions which oppose this conclusion. Judaism requires us to look for the answers in the entirety of the Torah.

 

[muman613]

Here is what Chabad says on the subject:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1507393/jewish/Is-It-Okay-to-Celebrate-Bin-Ladens-Death.htm

Is It Okay to Celebrate Bin Laden’s Death?
By Tzvi Freeman

Question:

Is it inappropriate to be celebrating the death of Osama Bin Laden? Is that a Jewish value?

Response:

You’ve asked what I could only call a very Jewish question. For one thing, it’s so typically Jewish to feel guilty about rejoicing. Aside from that, the wisdom of our sages on this topic runs deep and thick. When do you know a wisdom is deep? When at first glance it seems full of contradiction.

Let’s start with Solomon the Wise, who writes, “When the wicked perish, there is joyful song.”1

Sounds pretty unequivocal. Until you find another statement of the same author, in the same book: “When your enemy falls, do not rejoice, and when he stumbles, let your heart not exult, lest the L‑rd see and be displeased, and turn His wrath away from him.”2

The Talmud mirrors the tension. We find: “When the wicked perish from the world, good comes to the world, as the verse states, ‘When the wicked perish, there is joyful song.’”3

. . . while in the same volume, the Talmud has already told us, “When the Egyptians were drowning in the Sea of Reeds, the angels wanted to sing. G‑d said to them, ‘The work of My hands is drowning in the sea, and you want to sing?’”4

We aren’t the first to note these paradoxes and more. Now is not the time to list every resolution suggested. Instead, let’s get straight to the heart of the matter:

What is so terrible, after all, about celebrating the death of a wicked evildoer? Why would you even think it decrepit to rejoice that a man who himself rejoiced over the demise of thousands of others, and connived ingeniously to bring destruction and terror across the globe, should now be removed from it? Is it so horrible to feel happy that the world has just become a better, safer and happier place?

No, it’s not. That’s perfectly legit. On the contrary, someone who is not celebrating at this time is apparently not so concerned by the presence of evil upon our lovely planet. Those who are outraged by evil are carrying now smiles upon their face. The apathetic don’t give a hoot.

If so, when Pharaoh and his henchmen, who had enslaved our people for generations—mistreating them with the utmost cruelty, drowning our babies and beating workers to death—when they were finally being drowned in the sea, why would not G‑d Himself rejoice?

Simple: Because they are “the work of My hands.” For this, they are magnificent. And a terrible loss.

As another prophet put it, “As I live, says the L‑rd G‑d, I do not wish for the death of the wicked, but for the wicked to repent of his way so that he may live.”5

For the same reason, Solomon tells you not to rejoice over the fall of your enemy. If that’s the reason you are celebrating—because he is your enemy, that you have been vindicated in a personal battle—then how are you better than him? His wickedness was self-serving, as is your joy.

But to rejoice over the diminishment of evil in the world, that we have done something of our part to clean up the mess, that there has been justice—what could be more noble?

That, after all, was the sin of Bin Laden: He recognized G‑d. He was a deeply religious man—those who knew him call him “saintly.” He prayed to G‑d five times a day and thanked Him for each of his nefarious achievements. The sin of Bin Laden was to refuse to recognize the divine image within every human being, to deny the value G‑d Himself places upon “the work of My hands.” To Bin Laden, this world was an ugly, dark place, constructed only so that it could be obliterated in some final apocalypse, and he was ready to help it on its way. With that sin, all his worship and religiosity was rendered decrepit evil.

So there’s the irony of it all, the depth and beauty that lies in the tension of our Torah: If we celebrate that Bin Laden was shot and killed, we are stooping to his realm of depravation. Yet if we don’t celebrate the elimination of evil, we demonstrate that we simply don’t care.

We are not angels. An angel, when it sings, is filled with nothing but song. An angel, when it cries, is drowned in its own tears. We are human beings. We can sing joyfully and mourn both at once. We can hate the evil of a person, while appreciating that he is still the work of G‑d’s hands. In this way, the human being, not the angel, is the perfect vessel for the wisdom of Torah.

Sources

See Maharsha on Sanhedrin 39b; Midrash Shmuel 4:22.
FOOTNOTES
1.    Proverbs 11:10.
2.    Proverbs 24:17–18.
3.     Sanhedrin 113b.
4.    Sanhedrin 39b.
5.     Ezekiel 33:11.


© 2001-2011 Chabad-Lubavitch Media Center

[Lisa]

I realize we don't like Michael Savage here, as he talks from all sides of his mouth.  But here's what he had to say to a teacher in an Orthodox yeshiva, where the rabbis were telling the students not to rejoice at Osama Bin Laden's death. 

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/LQqFs__B7Lw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[muman613]

I realize we don't like Michael Savage here, as he talks from all sides of his mouth.  But here's what he had to say to a teacher in an Orthodox yeshiva, where the rabbis were telling the students not to rejoice at Osama Bin Laden's death. 

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/LQqFs__B7Lw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I heard about that... Arutz Sheva called Savage an anti-semite... I think Savage really sounded stupid although I didn't listen to it. He called the Rabbis idiots, including the great sage Rabbi Akiva. I don't think I will listen to savage. Rabbi Akiva is the sage whom we are remembering during the count of the Omer, we count 49 days from the 2nd seder of Pesach till Shavuot when the Jewish people received the Torah at Sinai.

But during the 1st part of the Omer count over 24,000 students of Rabbi Akiva died of a plague. It is for this reason that Orthodox Jews do not listen to music with instruments during the time the students were dying of the plague.

The Talmud explains to us that the main reason all 24,000 students of Rabbi Akiva died was because they did not give each other honor which is due a Torah scholar. This underscores the need to be very careful when we disparage a Torah scholar.

http://www.torah.org/learning/yomtov/omer/5755/vol1no20.html


Sefiras Ha'Omer and the Students of R' Akiva
by Rabbi Yehudah Prero
Now that we know what an Omer is, what does it have to do with counting?

The Gemora in the tractate of Yevamos 62b, tells us that "Rabbi Akiva had 12,000 pairs of students...and all of them died in one period of time because they did not conduct themselves with respect towards one another...they all died between Pesach and Shavuos...and they all died a terrible death. What was that it? R' Nachman said "As'kerah" (a death from suffocating, from a croup-like illness). "

The Aruch HaShulchan says that " these days between Pesach and Shavu'os are established by all of Israel as days of judgement and mourning, because in this short period of time, the students of Rabbi Akiva died. Furthermore, in the past, we have seen that the main fulfillment of decrees against us in Germany and France took place during this time period, and ..." therefore, the Aruch HaShulchan says, we have the custom to maintain certain practices associated with mourning.

The Iyun Yaakov, a commentator on the Talmud, adds some insights as to what happened with the students of R' Akiva, and why they were punished so harshly. He comments that we find that there are times when a great sage and scholar is taken from us, as an atonement for the generation. How does the passing of a great sage an atonement for the generation? The atonement is not automatic. Rather, the passing of a giant is to be an inspiration for the whole generation to take note of their deeds, and see if improvement or modification is necessary. The passing of a great sage is meant to grip the nation, to cause them to note "If such a great sage can be taken from this earth, a sage whose deeds were better than mine, who commitment to G-d and His commanments was firmer than mine, who knowledge of Torah was more vast than mine, a fortiore I can be taken from this earth at any time." The re-awakening will inspire the nation to repent, thereby acheiving atonement. This, the Zohar says, is comparable to the practice of blood-letting, where a small anount of blood is drawn from one part of the body so that the whole body will heal and become healthy.

This could have happened in the time of Rabbi Akiva's students. The students of Rabbi Akiva were the greatest sages of that generation. The Gemora in Yevamos says that the world was desolate and deviod of such scholarship and Torah knowledge after the students died. These students were not merely students of one of the great sages of the time: they were great sages in their own right as well. Therefore, as soon as the first of the students passed away, all the other students should have been alarmed: A great sage died! The students should have realized that they, just as their colleague, could be taken from this earth. This should have inspired the students to engage in introspection, to determine where improvement was needed, and to act on the inspiration of the moment. However, the very flaw which they were being warned to repair prevented them from taking any inspiration. The students, as the Gemora tells us, did not treat each other with respect. Because they did not treat each other with respect, no one student viewed any other student as "anything great." Beacuse they did not accord each other respect, when the first student died, the others did not gain any inspiration, as they did not acknowledge the greatness of their comrade, and hence did not make the a fortiore as to their own mortality. The students, therefore, did not refine their character and did not start treating each other with respect. The students, therefore, caused their own death. Beacuse of their failure to accord respect, not only were the students punished, but they passed up an opportunity to repent for this flaw. The students, therefore, truly died "because they did not conduct themselves with respect for one another."

[Lisa]

While I don't like that Savage disparaged Rabbi Akiva, I have to agree with him about rejoicing at the death of enemies to the Jewish people. 

And one more thing. 

I realize the IDF has now become the enemy of the heroic Jews in Yosh.  However, I just don't understand some of these ultra religious Jews who don't work, or serve in the army.  If it was good enough for Joshua and King David, why isn't it good enough for them.

[Yaakov Mendel]

Any Jew who feels guilty of rejoicing in the death of a pig like Bin Laden is a despicable lemming and a danger to the Jewish people. It is this kind of Jews who exhibit criminal weakness when things turn ugly and we have to fight for our survival.

[syyuge]

 

[Yaakov Mendel]

I realize the IDF has now become the enemy of the heroic Jews in Yosh.  However, I just don't understand some of these ultra religious Jews who don't work, or serve in the army.  If it was good enough for Joshua and King David, why isn't it good enough for them.

I agree. Behaving like a parasite is very anti-Jewish.

[muman613]

I think savage is an idiot for saying what he said. He is entitled to think what he wants about the rabbis but Im sure he is ignorant of the relevant issues from a Jewish standpoint. There indeed is a machloket whether it is proper for a Jew to celebrate. As I have intimate knowledge of this topic, since I am a victim and have been looking into this issue for some years, I know that there is an acceptable rejoicing and an unacceptable rejoicing. I have posted several of the relevant portions which relate to this topic. But savage just made an attack on rabbis because his own evil inclination wanted to disparage one of the greatest sages of the Jewish people.

The issue really has nothing to do with feeling bad that the enemy was destroyed, but to what extent should we celebrate their destruction. As always Judaism advises we follow the middle path, not too extreme to either side.

It is especially important to celebrate the destruction of Israels enemies when we see clearly the hand of Hashem in the event. For a Jew not to celebrate the obvious miracles is a chillul Hashem.

[muman613]

But I think savage should read Pirkie Avot, Chapter 6 Mishnah 6 which discusses the wisdom of the sages...

http://www.torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter6-622.html

The 48 Ways: 22(a)
Are the Sages Infallible? Part I
Chapter 6, Mishna 6

By Rabbi Dovid Rosenfeld

"Torah is greater than priesthood and kingship, for kingship is acquired with 30 qualities, priesthood is acquired with 24, whereas the Torah is acquired with 48 ways. These are: ... (22) trust in the Sages..."

We are continuing to cover the famous 48 Ways of Pirkei Avos, listing the means of acquiring Torah.

This week's quality, "emunas chachamim," means trusting or having faith in the Sages. There are a number of implications to this term, all of them significant. In fact, this quality might be considered one of the truest signs of the true believer as opposed to the religious skeptic.

On its simplest level, trust in the Sages implies believing in their teachings and the traditions upon which they are based. We accept that the laws, discussions and homilies of the Sages are authentic and a part of our Torah.

This immediately raises a few issues. How *do* we know that the Talmud and Midrash are sacred and divinely inspired? Weren't they authored by scholars who lived a millennium or more after the Revelation at Sinai? We have no doubt they were great men -- just look at their words and advice -- but are their words on par with the Torah itself? And if not, what does "trust in the Sages" exactly mean? Trust that what? That they are infallible, that everything they say is in line with G-d's will? Again, they were certainly great men, but doesn't everyone make mistakes? Didn't Moses himself makes mistakes -- as well as virtually all the great men of Scripture? "Trust" implies almost a degree of blind faith -- of submitting ourselves before the Sages even beyond what makes sense to us. Is that what is required of the true believer? Do we have no right to challenge or question the scholars before us but must blindly "trust" whoever preceded us?

We're opening an important issue. Let us back up slightly and review some of our past discussions relating to this issue. After the review, we will hopefully gain a better understanding of the subject matter at hand. (You can find a related discussion on 3:17 (start with www.torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/archapter3.html and follow the links). Below I present a somewhat condensed version of the discussion.)

As we know, the Torah was given to us at Sinai in two sections -- the Scripture or the Written Law, and the Oral Law -- a set of laws not recorded in writing but memorized and passed down orally from generation to generation. The Written Law on its own is filled with pleasant but meaningless generalities ("Do no manner of servile labor on the Sabbath," "It shall be for a sign between your eyes," etc.) charging us with all sorts of dramatic and inspiring commandments, but telling us very little about what it actually means to be a Jew. The Oral Law fills in the gaps left by the Written. It provides structure and detail for the general concepts of the Written. It takes religion from the level of empty inspiration -- where many other religions leave their adherents -- to an organized and well-thought-out guide for life.
.
.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I heard about that... Arutz Sheva called Savage an anti-semite... I think Savage really sounded stupid although I didn't listen to it. He called the Rabbis idiots, including the great sage Rabbi Akiva.

He said what about Rabbi Akiva?  Is he an idiot?   Rabbi Akiva was the shieldbearer of bar kochva and his students fought in the revolt.  I have no doubt that Rabbi Akiva and his greatest talmid, Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai, if they were alive today, would be celebrating the death of bin laden, and they would be pursuing the deaths of similar animals in Gaza.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

While I don't like that Savage disparaged Rabbi Akiva, I have to agree with him about rejoicing at the death of enemies to the Jewish people.  

Even a moron can be right about some things.

So he picked on some PC rabbi (there are many of these as Rabbi Kahane always pointed out), and then lumps in every rabbi with them, including the great Rabbi Akiva, and that makes him a good guy?   Savage is an idiot.

[muman613]

He said what about Rabbi Akiva?  Is he an idiot?   Rabbi Akiva was the shieldbearer of bar kochva and his students fought in the revolt.  I have no doubt that Rabbi Akiva and his greatest talmid, Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai, if they were alive today, would be celebrating the death of bin laden, and they would be pursuing the deaths of similar animals in Gaza.

Indeed... Rabbi Akiva is remembered every Yom Kippur when we read about the 10 martyrs.

Here is a nice article which informs us of Rabbi Akivas contributions to the Jewish people:

http://njop.org/resources/holidays/complete-guide-to-holidays/lag-baomer/rabbi-akiva-hero-and-martyr/

Rabbi Akiva-Hero and Martyr

    One of Israel’s greatest sages, Rabbi Akiva ben Yosef, was a scholar, a teacher, a shepherd and a revolutionary.

    A revolutionary? In the year 70 of the Common Era, the Romans destroyed the Second Temple and the Jews were exiled from Jerusalem. The emperor promised to rebuild the city, but his plan was to rebuild it and rename it Aeila Capitalina, dedicating it to the Roman G-d, Jupiter. This outrageous act, along with the harsh laws forbidding the study of Torah and the observance of many of the mitzvot, led to the Bar Kochba revolt over 60 years after the destruction of the Temple, in the year 132 CE.

    While Shimon Bar Kochba was the military commander of the revolt, the spiritual leader was Rabbi Akiva. He had such faith in Bar Kochba that he believed him to be the Messiah, which, unfortunately, he was not. It was during the Bar Kochba revolt that the 24,000 of Rabbi Akiva’s students died in a plague. The rabbis understood this plague to be a result of the students lack of respect for each other, and, despite their high level of intellectual development, their lack of proper moral comportment was fatal. Devastated by the death of his pupils, and the failure of the Bar Kochba revolt, Rabbi Akiva nevertheless persevered and continued teaching his surviving students.

    Living in such turbulent times, however, Rabbi Akiva’s life was not to end peacefully. Ignoring the Roman prohibitions against the Jewish people and their practices, he was declared a criminal for teaching Torah wherever he could, and was eventually captured by the Romans. Tortured, he called out joyfully: “All my life I’ve been waiting to fulfill the concept ‘You shall love Hashem, your G-d, with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your resources…’[the first paragraph of the Shema] and now I finally have the chance.” Rabbi Akiva died a martyr’s death.

Rabbi Akiva–The Simple Shepherd

    Where did Rabbi Akiva get the strength to persevere while watching all but 5 of his students die, his country in revolution, and while being tortured himself?

    Akiva ben Yosef ben Avraham was not always a great sage. In fact, he was the son of a convert who was once a thoroughly ignorant and illiterate shepherd. So poor and downtrodden a figure was Akiva ben Yosef that his father-in-law, one of the wealthiest men in Israel, disinherited his daughter, Rachel, for marrying him

    At the age of forty, Akiva’s life changed suddenly. One day, while out tending his flocks, he noticed a rock with a strange hole going straight through it. This hole was created by constantly dripping water. Akiva ben Yosef decided then and there to go and learn Torah, for if dripping water could bore a hole into solid rock, then even he, a forty year old man could learn Torah through constant effort. He had to start from scratch, for Akiva ben Yosef did not even know the aleph-bet!

    Fully supported by Rachel, his wife, he went to study Torah for 12 years. When he returned he overheard his wife tell a friend that she would gladly let him learn for another 12 years. And he did. When he finally returned, he had become the great sage and acquired his 24,000 students.

    Like Moses, Rabbi Akiva started as a shepherd. He became one of the greatest sages of the Jewish people with enough wisdom to unravel the intricacies of the law, guide the populace, and inspire an army.

[muman613]

This is the quote, according to INN that savage made about Rabbi Akiva:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/143907
Jason: I just think that it's a dilemma that there is all the hate...

Savage: The dilemma is its false teachings, that's all. Some rabbi wrote it a thousand years [ago] – who, Rabbi Akiva wrote it, so therefore it's Gospel? He was just another man. He was just another man! I think his view was wrong. I think there are times to rejoice in the death of your enemy.

I don't think he was correct because I don't think Rabbi Akiva has any comment on this topic. It was King Solomon the Wise who said in Proverbs/Mishlei that we should rejoice in the fall of our enemies. But as it has been explained this is talking about rejoicing in the fall of our own personal enemies, not national enemies.

I don't know why savage pulled Rabbi Akiva out like this...

PS: Now that I look at the conversation it appears to me that 'Jason' is completely wrong about why there is a question about whether we should rejoice. His comment about 'all the hate' is not the reason.

[muman613]

I also found this part extremely offensive:

“Telling yeshiva boys that... you can find a rule for everything on every direction in the holy books,” Savage went on. “Because the holy books are a compendium of the writings over hundreds of thousands of years written by various scholars and they have a variety of opinions on everything. It doesn't mean that they're all valid. You can pick and choose what you want.”

That 'pick and choose what you want' is the reform Judaism motto. Orthodox Judaism does not pick and choose what we believe. We look at all the sources and learn from the Rabbi who was accepted by the sages, as the Talmud is full of Rabbis with differing opinions.

Another quote from Torah.org supports this in the further discussion of the mishnah in Pirkie Avot:

http://www.torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter6-624.html
It should also be borne in mind that the Sages tell us there are many valid interpretations to the Torah. The Midrash writes that there are 70 "faces" (facets) to the Torah (Bamidbar Rabbah 13:15). There are many valid ways of understanding each part of the Torah -- some more literal and some more profound -- but all valid according to the legitimate methods of Torah study handed to us. Thus, the Sages who contested R. Eliezer did not consider themselves "wrong". Perhaps their opinion was not the most profound in an absolute sense. But they correctly recognized that it was the only explanation their generation could fathom.

I'd like to illustrate this principle with yet another fascinating episode from the Talmud (Shabbos 12b). I recognize this topic is one of our most profound and to be honest, most difficult to explain. Hopefully another illustration will shed a little more light -- and then we'll call it a day.

The Sages of the Mishna forbade reading from the light of an oil lamp on the Sabbath for fear the reader will tilt the lamp to adjust the light (causing the fire to burn better on the Sabbath). R. Yishmael son of Elisha responded: "I will read and I will not tilt." He felt, no doubt rightly, that he was so cognizant of the Sabbath that it could never possibly slip his mind. He went ahead and ignored the decree and the inevitable occurred: he found himself tilting the lamp.

[Dr. Dan]

We are permitted to rejoice the death of enemies like haman, but we shouldn't rejoice if it is our neighbor our competitor when something negative befalls him or her.

[muman613]

We are permitted to rejoice the death of enemies like haman, but we shouldn't rejoice if it is our neighbor our competitor when something negative befalls him or her.

That is a succinct way of saying what I have said...

[Dr. Dan]

That is a succinct way of saying what I have said...

Sometimes it's better to be succinct. 

Unfortunately the liberal streams of"judaism" have made everything politically correct.

[Yaakov Mendel]

I also found this part extremely offensive:

That 'pick and choose what you want' is the reform Judaism motto. Orthodox Judaism does not pick and choose what we believe. We look at all the sources and learn from the Rabbi who was accepted by the sages, as the Talmud is full of Rabbis with differing opinions.

Another quote from Torah.org supports this in the further discussion of the mishnah in Pirkie Avot:

This is a complex issue. On the one hand, you are right to point out the absurdity of picking and choosing whatever we like. There is no Judaism if Halakha is not binding and normative. In this respect, the view held by Reform Judaism and Reconstructionist Judaism is not tenable. On the other hand, Halakha has been an evolving process subject to interpretation by rabbis in every time period. Chazal is just a way to refer collectively to the consensus of authoritative opinion.
There has to be some flexibility in the law, but the circumstances and extent to which change is permissible must be carefully defined.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

On the other hand, Halakha has been an evolving process subject to interpretation by rabbis in every time period. Chazal is just a way to refer collectively to the consensus of authoritative opinion.
There has to be some flexibility in the law, but the circumstances and extent to which change is permissible must be carefully defined.

Good point but obviously savage couldn't tell you a thing about that and shouting into a microphone on his program he just comes off as a buffoon who is throwing the rabbis under the bus.

[Yaakov Mendel]

Good point but obviously savage couldn't tell you a thing about that and shouting into a microphone on his program he just comes off as a buffoon who is throwing the rabbis under the bus.

Sure. Savage is a big mouth and an ignoramus on Judaism.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

Savage is Jew-hating sub-human but so are the other Hellenists he dares to call Rabbis. Not suprising hearing that from a Hezbollah supporter

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Yimach shemo to Michael Faggot, the Jewish OBL.

[Christian Zionist]

But Judaism is more than Tanakh. Tanakh is only the written Torah, but without the Oral Torah we cannot truly understand the written Torah. This is why it is important to demonstrate that Jewish belief is that we should rejoice, even when there are opinions which oppose this conclusion. Judaism requires us to look for the answers in the entirety of the Torah.

 

Correct!

   For the director of music. To the tune of “Do Not Destroy.” Of David. A miktam.
 1 Do you rulers indeed speak justly?
   Do you judge people with equity?
2 No, in your heart you devise injustice,
   and your hands mete out violence on the earth.

 3 Even from birth the wicked go astray;
   from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies.
4 Their venom is like the venom of a snake,
   like that of a cobra that has stopped its ears,
5 that will not heed the tune of the charmer,
   however skillful the enchanter may be.

 6 Break the teeth in their mouths, O God;
   LORD, tear out the fangs of those lions!
7 Let them vanish like water that flows away;
   when they draw the bow, let their arrows fall short.
8 May they be like a slug that melts away as it moves along,
   like a stillborn child that never sees the sun.

 9 Before your pots can feel the heat of the thorns—
   whether they be green or dry—the wicked will be swept away.[c]
10 The righteous will be glad when they are avenged,
   when they dip their feet in the blood of the wicked.
11 Then people will say,
   “Surely the righteous still are rewarded;
   surely there is a God who judges the earth.”



Especially

the wicked will be swept away.[c]
10 The righteous will be glad when they are avenged,
   when they dip their feet in the blood of the wicked