Who wants Moshiach Now?

[muman613]

I watched this video last night and it is a very good 1h30m video which goes into depth about the prophecies concerning the coming of Moshiach including the signs {which Rabbi Mizrachi obviously believes to be happening now}.

http://www.divineinformation.com/videos-english/how-to-bring-mashiach/

[edu]

The Talmud in Megilla page 17 tells us about the stages of the redemption, what comes first.
Namely, the agricultural blessing of the land of Israel, ingathering of the exiles to Israel,
Return of the Good Judges to the Jewish People, the victory over various ideoligical opponents of Judaism, the strengthening of the righteous, the building of Jerusalem, which according to the Havinenu prayer includes the repairing of the Temple Sanctuary {Heichal}. Only after this is the sprouting of the offspring of David and his "horn of salvation".
You could possible contend that all these stages will happen very quickly.
But I think history shows that we have been, more successful, when we have tried to do actions to push forward the beginning stages of redemption, rather than just waiting for Mashiach to come and do everything.

[muman613]

The Talmud in Megilla page 17 tells us about the stages of the redemption, what comes first.
Namely, the agricultural blessing of the land of Israel, ingathering of the exiles to Israel,
Return of the Good Judges to the Jewish People, the victory over various ideoligical opponents of Judaism, the strengthening of the righteous, the building of Jerusalem, which according to the Havinenu prayer includes the repairing of the Temple Sanctuary {Heichal}. Only after this is the sprouting of the offspring of David and his "horn of salvation".
You could possible contend that all these stages will happen very quickly.
But I think history shows that we have been, more successful, when we have tried to do actions to push forward the beginning stages of redemption, rather than just waiting for Mashiach to come and do everything.

Yes, Rabbi Mizrachi discusses that and other discussions in Tanach and Talmud concerning Moshiach...

This video from Chabad of the Rebbe speaking about Moshiach is very interesting also:

[muman613]

One of the signs which I have heard numerous Rabbis discuss is the concept that in the generation before the coming of Moshiach the people will have a face like a dog.

http://www.inner.org/leader/leader5.htm

In the Talmud, a series of prophetic predictions are given regarding events that will occur before the coming of Mashiach. One of these "signs" is that the generation preceding Mashiach will have "a face like a dog." Among many possible interpretations is that a dog always runs ahead of his master appearing to lead, but always looks back to his master to get a sign as to which direction he should go. This can be compared to today, where most "leaders" lead only in appearance, forever looking behind at the press and public opinion polls to gauge which opinions to adopt.

Within this negative development is actually hidden a positive aspect if properly applied. A true leader in a sense also "looks back," but for different reasons. As discussed above, the word for "messenger," shaliach, with an additional yud numerically equals Mashiach, 358. As the ultimate leader, Mashiach not only leads but is forever "looking back" to G-d, the source of his message, for instruction as to which direction to pursue. Additionally, a compassionate leader "looks back" to his generation, forever strengthening the soul connection between them.

The most telling sign of a leader is whether his people are joyous and content. The letters of Mashiach when rearranged spell the word "to be joyous.". At the conclusion of the dedication of the first Temple by Solomon it is written: "On the eighth day he sent away the people and they blessed the king and went to their tents joyful and glad of heart for all the goodness that G-d had done for David His servant and for Israel His people." The number eight always signifies a level above nature and logic. The bond between king and people transcends all other relationships, touching the deepest supra conscious point of the soul, the yechidah, the origin point of the spark of Mashiach within each individual Jewish soul. The sense of joy emanating from the soul-union of king and people creates an experience of redemption and new life. This is referred to as the passion "to see the king in his glory." The phenomenon of movie stars, performers and sports figures commanding loyal followings, to the occasional point of near hysteria, is but a perverted shadow image of this reality.

http://www.torah.org/learning/perceptions/5759/haazinu.html

The Talmud says that, the generation right before Moshiach comes will have the "face of a dog" (Sanhedrin 97a). A dog can have a positive connotation in Judaism, but, in most cases, and certainly within the context of this Talmudic discussion, it is a negative one.

At the end of Parashas Beshallach, Rashi indicates that the dog even symbolizes Amalek. If so, then maybe the Talmud means:

Before Moshiach, the generation will have the face of Amalek!

The "face of Amalek"? What kind of face is that?!

As we have discussed on so many occasions before, Amalek epitomizes doubt more than anything else in creation, specifically doubt in G-d and Torah ... a doubt that results in losing appreciation of Torah, and its depth. Whether Rashi was hinting at this point or not is hard to know. However, it remains to be true nonetheless, and an important idea to integrate at a time in history when so many, Rachmanah L'itzlan (Heaven help us), are prepared to "throw" Torah to the dogs.

[muman613]

Here is a portion of Talmud Sanhedrin which discusses these signs: http://www.neveh.org/winston/parsha58/shavuos_5758_part_1.html

Rebi Yochanan said: In the generation that Ben Dovid will come, talmidei chachamim will decrease, and the eyes of the remainder will protrude from sighing and sorrow; many chastisements and many evil decrees will be renewed; one will not cease before another begins.

The rabbis taught: The Shmittah period in which Ben David will come the following verse will be fulfilled in the first year, "And I caused it to rain upon one city, and upon another city I caused it not to rain." (Amos 4:7). In the second year, slight famine will be sent. In the third year, a great famine from which men, women, and children, pious and deed-doing people will die, and Torah will be forgotten by those who learned her. In the fourth year, some will be satiated, and others will not be. In the fifth year, there will be great satiation, with eating, drinking, and joy, and Torah will return to those who learned it. In the sixth year, voices [speaking of the Moshiach's imminent arrival] will be heard, and in the seventh year, there will be war [Gog u'Magog]. In the year after the seventh, Ben Dovid will come. Rab Yosef said, "Many Shmittah cycles have come and he did not arrive!" Abaye answered, "Were there voices in the sixth year followed by war in the seventh year? Secondly, did they follow this order?"

Rebi Yehuda said: The generation in which Ben Dovid will come ... The wisdom of the scribes will be corrupted; men fearing sin will be hated; the leaders of the generation will have the nature of dogs; and truth will be lacking ... He who turns away from evil will be regarded by the public as being foolish.

Rebi Nehorai taught: The generation in which Ben Dovid will come the young will embarrass the old, and the old will rise for the young; a daughter will rebel against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law, the leaders of the generation will have the nature of dogs, and a son will feel no shame when criticized by his father.

Reb Nechemia taught: The generation in which Ben Dovid will come, insolence will increase, respect will be missing ... and all the governments will turn to false beliefs (minnus); criticism will be of no avail.

Ben Dovid will not come until informers increase ... And hope in the redemption is renounced. (Sanhedrin 97a)

[muman613]

Rabbi Mizrachi, I think, talked about people whose faces look like their dogs:






http://www.tanmonkey.com/fun/dog-looks-like-owner.php

[Yaakov Mendel]

I don't like the way Rabbi Mizrachi ridicules and smears every person who doesn't think like him.
In this video, I think he sounds like a complacent man who hasn't got the courage and the intellectual honesty to question his beliefs, and as a manipulative man who tries to seduce his audience through jokes that are imbued with yetser hara.

[muman613]

I don't like the way Rabbi Mizrachi ridicules and smears every person who doesn't think like him.
In this video, I think he sounds like a complacent man who hasn't got the courage and the intellectual honesty to question his beliefs, and as a manipulative man who tries to seduce his audience through jokes that are imbued with yetser hara.

Interesting... That is my only complaint with Rabbi Mizrachi... He does have a tendency to knock others who don't believe like him. For a while I boycotted his videos because he spoke badly of Breslov Chassidim {of which I consider myself a part of}.

But I have found there is something I dislike about every Rabbi I listen to. So I come to the conclusion that the Rabbi is only human, and as such he is liable to say things which are offensive to some people. I try to look past that and hear the good which they are trying to convey in their lecture.

[muman613]

Here is Rabbi Brody talking about the subject:

[edu]

If you do a little research on the topic, you will find that there are other generations,
that pointed to certain incidents that occured in their time or certain spiritual problems that occured in their time as "proof" that Messiah is about to come.

Therefore it is worthwhile not to get too excited or convinced about proofs now being offered and just say, it is possible that things develop as the optimists say, but it is certainly possible, that they are wrong and our focus should be on what actions we can do to further the redemption process by natural means.

One final note. Although I don't currently own a dog, I am afraid that dog lovers will be offended by all the negative comments about them, so just for a little balance, here are some positive statements:

תלמוד בבלי מסכת בבא קמא דף ס עמוד ב
ת"ר: כלבים בוכים - מלאך המות בא לעיר, כלבים משחקים - אליהו הנביא בא לעיר; וה"מ דלית בהו נקבה.
מלבי"ם שמות פרק כב
 לכלב תשליכון אותו. ובנבלה אמר לגר אשר בשעריך תתננה (דברים יד) שמותר בהנאה ומשמע שהטרפה אסורה בהנאה, אך זה א"א דהא הנבלה חמורה מהטרפה שמטמאה במשא, וכיון שהיא מותרת בהנאה כ"ש טרפה, רק פי' כמ"ש הראב"ע שאמר לכלב בפת"ח, הכלב הידוע שומר הצאן שהוא נהנה במה שנותן מזון לכלב שמזונותיו עליו, והכלב הציל את בשר הטרפה מפי החיה ושייך לו בשכרו, כי הוא השומר קנין אדוניו וצאנו, והוא שמר צאן אדוניו במצרים והכיר את קונו ושמר את צאנו ולא חרץ עליהם לשונו, ואף שבע"ח אינם בעלי שכר ועונש כי פעולתם טבעיית אמר הקב"ה תן לו שכרו שמזה ילמד אדם מוסר לדעת דרכי ה' שכ"ש שיש שכר ועונש להאדם שהוא בעל בחירה, וכן אמר ירמיה (ירמיה יז) שהעושה עושר ולא במשפט ילמד מוסר מן הקורא שאוסף לקנו ביצים של  עופות אחרים ולבסוף מקבל עונש על ידם כדי שיהיה זה מוסר להעושה עושר בגזל שבחצי ימיו יעזבנו:

For those that don't understand Hebrew you should look up the translation  to Talmud Baba Kama 60b and Malbim's commentary  to Shmot/Exodus chapter 22 verse 30

[muman613]

edu,

The point for believing that Moshiach is about to come is in order to bring a person to want to merit his coming at this time.

We all know that there are two scenarios, the first is that Moshiach will come because we merit his coming. This is the best option for everyone involved because there will not be much suffering if he comes because we merit it. The other way he can come is if the Jewish people fall so low that unless they are redeemed they will be completely lost. It is said that the redemption from Egypt was the second form of redemption, that the Jewish people had fallen to the 49th level of tumah and if they descended any further they would have been utterly destroyed.

But the prophecies concerning how the world will be when the Moshiach comes do seem to be describing the times today. Only in recent times have the young people been so brazen that they no longer respect their elders. Never has there been so much assimilation amongst the Jewish people.

What will bring Moshiach? Only if we return to Hashem, fulfilling our promise made during Shema that we should love Hashem with all our heart and with all of our soul and with all of our resources. That a Jew should Love and Fear Hashem and walk in his ways. In my opinion it is essential in todays world to always remember that Moshiach could be here if we only do the right thing, perform Hashems mitzvot in this world and elevate this world to understand Hashem.

I remember this Gemara which says that three things come in an unexpected manner...

http://www.jewishamerica.com/ja/features/arndyr.cfm
The Gomorra Sanhedrin (97a) says the following: "Three things come (/ shall come) in an unexpected manner: Moshiach, finding something valuable, and (the sting of a) scorpion.

The following thoughts come to mind:

Perhaps the three are all related. Some people think of the Messianic Era as being 'free lunch,' like finding something valuable. We'll just sit back take it all in; we'll take it easy.

Other people may tend to think of the Messianic Era as being like the sting of scorpion. The jig will be up. No more fun. One big prison. Maybe he can wait until I pass the CPA exam?

Then there is a third thing - Moshiach.

So far, the free lunch people and the scorpion people are missing the boat. Hope they will hop aboard soon.

It'll be wonderful. We'll be plenty busy. They'll straighten out.

[muman613]

Here is some discussion of the two ways that Moshiach can come:

http://www.messiahtruth.com/yosef.html
With this we can return to the passage from the Rabbis quoted at the beginning. This passage refers to the principle we have just stated, and is a reference to Moshiach ben Dovid, and the two ways in which HE can come! Before this above passage[18] we find the following passage:

Rabbi Eliezer said, ‘If Israel repents they will be redeemed, and if not they will not be.” Rabbi Yehoshua said to him, “If they don’t repent they will not be redeemed? But the Holy One Blessed is He will raise up for them a King who will make decrees over them like Haman and they will repent and return to the good.”

As Rabbi Saadiah Gaon points out[19] this teaching refers to the wars and disasters that would occur before the coming of Moshiach ben Yosef. But if they do repent then there is no need for all of that. If we look at the Tenach we see two types of prophecies dealing with the end-times period. One tells of wars, like Ezekiel 38 and Zechariah 12. But others are silent, mentioning neither war, nor any other series of events. Based on the Biblical principle we saw from the books of Jonah and Jeremiah, we see that G-d’s message of war is a conditional one that can be mitigated by repentance. This is the message of the Talmud. Let’s see the passages in context. First Daniel 7:

[muman613]

And the desire for Moshiach is even discussed in Rambams 13 principles...

#12 I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah. How long it takes, I will await His coming every day.

[Yaakov Mendel]

Interesting... That is my only complaint with Rabbi Mizrachi... He does have a tendency to knock others who don't believe like him. For a while I boycotted his videos because he spoke badly of Breslov Chassidim {of which I consider myself a part of}.

But I have found there is something I dislike about every Rabbi I listen to. So I come to the conclusion that the Rabbi is only human, and as such he is liable to say things which are offensive to some people. I try to look past that and hear the good which they are trying to convey in their lecture.

Interesting to learn that he speaks badly of Breslov Chassidim. This confirms my sentiment. I am not saying that all Breslov Chassidim should be immune from criticism. But I take it that by "speaking badly" you mean something closer to lishon hara than to fair criticism.

Of course Rabbis are only human and, as such, even the most righteous of them have their own shortcomings and weaknesses. But I think there are certain shortcomings that are acceptable and others that are not when you are a Rabbi...
As Rabbi Baal Shem Tov, z''tl, said : "Every spiritual malady has a cure, except for pride".

[edu]

Muman613
On the one hand the "We want Mashiach Now" campaign of Chabad has made them more nationalistic and interested in learning Rambam
On the other hand because of the high messianic expectations raised by the campaign, even after the Rebbe died, many in Chabad refused to deal properly with the new reality and instead started to originate
"strange ideologies" to explain the seeming failure of their Mashiach scenario. Are you implying MUMAN613
that the pluses of the Chabad campaign outweigh the minuses?

[muman613]

Muman613
On the one hand the "We want Mashiach Now" campaign of Chabad has made them more nationalistic and interested in learning Rambam
On the other hand because of the high messianic expectations raised by the campaign, even after the Rebbe died, many in Chabad refused to deal properly with the new reality and instead started to originate
"strange ideologies" to explain the seeming failure of their Mashiach scenario. Are you implying MUMAN613
that the pluses of the Chabad campaign outweigh the minuses?

Edu,

I do suggest that Chabad has done a great thing by getting people excited about the coming of Moshiach. So many Jews talk about it today, and not only Chabadniks. All strains of Judaism have been affected by Chabads open discussion of Moshiach.

I think what you are implying is the age-old accusation that Chabad believes that their Rebbe was Moshiach. We all know that this is impossible because Rebbe did not bring about any of the signs which indicate that he was moshiach, and he died without fulfilling any of the signs... I have many good Chabad friends, and know 3 Chabad Rabbis personally. Chabad is one of the most open and inviting Jewish organization which I have encountered. Their Rabbis have opened their houses and helped me and my family perform many Mitzvot.

I have asked my Chabad Rabbi friends about this accusation that they believe that their Rebbe is Moshiach. Every single response indicated that they did not believe it, and they have never taught this heretical idea. I have listened to years of Chabad lectures and not once have I heard any suggestion that Rabbi Schneerson was the Moshiach. I have heard that people know people who propagate this heresy.. But I have never sat down and spoken with a single Chassid who would admit to me that they believe this.

I do not believe that Rebbe was Moshiach. I do believe he was a Tzaddik, and a Tzadik is a special character in the Chassidic belief. As I identify with Breslov {because my family is from Uman in Ukraine} I have learned to understand that the Tzadik is not a Messianic figure but one who has great wisdom and brings it to the people. Rabbi Nachman of Breslov was a tzadik and I will always believe this. I believe Rabbi Schneerson was also a tzadik, but he certainly was not Moshiach.

http://www.613.org/hasidism/03.htm

We frequently assume that man’s spiritual status hinges upon the measure of his deeds.  G-d places man’s actions on the Divine scale, Mitzvos, good deeds, on one side and Aveiros, violations of G-d’s commands, on the other.  Defendants with a heavier Mitzvah side are Tzadikim (saints); an excess of Aveiros characterizes Rishoim (sinners).  The few with perfectly split behaviors belong to a third category - Beinonim or Middle-of-the-Roaders. Chassidus argues that this simplistic definition is not wholly accurate.

Rabbi Shneur Zalman of Liadi,[5] dedicated the first part of his book Likutey Amarim (Tanya) to the premise that a Tzadik is not “merely” a person whose deeds are usually Mitzvos.  The Talmud records a dispute between two sages, Abaye and Rabbah, as to whether the latter was a Beinoni or a Tzadik.   Rabbah insisted that he was a Beinoni, while Abaye argued that if Rabbah was a Beinoni it would be impossible for anyone to be a Tzadik.[6]  Rabbah definitely performed more good than evil[7] yet felt undeserving of the Tzadik title.  The Tanya deduced that a Tzadik is not just a practitioner of good deeds.  His inner life is virtuous, Sin repulses him, and he is only attracted to virtue.

A handful of individuals are born Tzadikim.  Job referred to the natural Tzadik when he said “G-d, You created Tzadikim.”[8]  While the Talmud states that the angel of predestination[9] does not declare the spiritual level the child will attain, because each individual must attain holiness through his own efforts, that is merely the norm.   Every rule has exceptions.  The natural Tzadik Job referred to is such an exception.  From birth this Tzadik is predisposed to a life of holiness and internally he hardly feels that sin is a viable option.  King David was a different type of Tzadik, he was born with virulent and sinful urges.  Through mortification of the material body and rigorous Torah study he killed his evil urge and reached the spiritual level of a Tzadik.[10]  A Tzadik, whether by birth or through spiritual achievements, is not afflicted with the struggle between lust and conscience.  The only desire of the Tzadik is attachment to Divinity.  

http://www.ou.org/about/judaism/rabbis/mmschneerson.htm

[edu]

http://www.ksol.org/image.asp?f=psak_large.pdf&d=11
This is a link to a hebrew petition of hundreds of rabbis presumably mostly from Chabad
who signed a petition years after the death of Rabbi Schneerson that he is Mashiach.
This is in response to what Muman613 wrote:

I have listened to years of Chabad lectures and not once have I heard any suggestion that Rabbi Schneerson was the Moshiach. I have heard that people know people who propagate this heresy.. But I have never sat down and spoken with a single Chassid who would admit to me that they believe this.

[muman613]

http://www.ksol.org/image.asp?f=psak_large.pdf&d=11
This is a link to a hebrew petition of hundreds of rabbis presumably mostly from Chabad
who signed a petition years after the death of Rabbi Schneerson that he is Mashiach.
This is in response to what Muman613 wrote:

That is sad but it does not represent the opinion of the national Chabad organization. As I stated in the quotation you mentioned I know several good Chabad Rabbis and not a single one has taught or admitted to believe that he was Moshiach.

Are your posts here intended to be a smear of Chabad? That is what I am seeing in your posts.

http://www.chabad.org/library/moshiach/default.htm

http://www.chabad.org/library/moshiach/article_cdo/aid/1121893/jewish/The-Basics.htm

Who is Moshiach?—The Basics

The Messianic Redemption will be ushered in by a person, a human leader, a descendant of Kings David and Solomon, who will reinstate the Davidic royal dynasty. According to tradition, Moshiach will be wiser than Solomon, and a prophet around the level of Moses.

Ever since the destruction of the Holy Temple, in every generation there is an individual, a scion of the House of David, who has the potential to be the Moshiach. If at any moment the Jews are worthy of redemption, this person would be directed from Above to assume the role of the redeemer.
During the Messianic Era, the Moshiach will serve a dual role. He will be a monarch, ruling over all of humanity with kindness and justice, and upholding the law of the Torah—613 commandments for the Jews, and seven for the non-Jews. He will also be the ultimate teacher, the conduit for the deepest and most profound dimensions of the Torah which will then be revealed by G‑d.

How are we to identify the Moshiach?

Moshiach is not identified by his ability to perform earth-shattering miracles. In fact, he isn't required to perform any miracles at all (although the performance of miracles doesn't disqualify him either).

The following are the criteria for identifying the Moshiach, as written by Maimonides:

If we see a Jewish leader who (a) toils in the study of Torah and is meticulous about the observance of the mitzvot, (b) influences the Jews to follow the ways of the Torah and (c) wages the "battles of G‑d"—such a person is the "presumptive Moshiach."

If the person succeeded in all these endeavors, and then rebuilds the Holy Temple in Jerusalem and facilitates the ingathering of the Jews to the Land of Israel—then we are certain that he is the Moshiach.

http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/mashiach/index.html

[muman613]

I realize that there is danger in getting Jews all excited about Moshiach and some of the followers may get the impression that their rebbe is Moshiach. This is one reason some mitnagdim were against the entire Chassidic movement. Breslov never replaced Rabbi Nachman and some people still believe that the followers of Rabbi Nachman believe he was Moshiach. I have never met a Breslover who would tell me that Rabbi Nachman was the Moshiach and I do not believe that he was the Moshiach. But as I said before, I do believe he was a tzadik of his generation. And every generation really needs a good tzadik to help keep the generation going in the ways of Hashem. They are also called Gedolim, which we have so few of today...

[edu]

quote from Muman613 based on Chabad
According to tradition, Moshiach will be wiser than Solomon, and a prophet around the level of Moses.
Before the Rebbe died, Chabadniks tried to show me the Rambam, to prove through their distorted interpretation that the Rebbe was Mashiach or at least the person who would be Mashiach if we have Mashiach in our generation.
Rambam says that if not for sins, Bar Cochba, who was not wiser than Solomon and not a prophet, could have been Mashiach.

Now I would like to ask you a personal question Muman613. Let's say, that hundreds of Breslav Rabbis officially came out with a signed petition, that Rabbi Nachman of Breslav is the Mashiach, who will do all his Mashiach activities in his second coming. And a small minority said even more radical things about him. Wouldn't you feel obligated to come out with a forceful, statement repudiating the idea in order to avoid, Chilul Hashem and spreading of a lie in the nation of Israel.
I assume you would.
If so, where is the forceful statement by Chabad, regarding their Rebbe?
Point 2. For many years, The Vilna Gaon was smeared as having voiced needless opposition to the Chassidic movement of his time. I stress of his time, since the Movement has undergone some changes. I do believe, in order to protect the reputation of the Vilna Gaon and also to prevent a major spiritual obstacle from developing in Israel, it is indeed proper to point out the faults of Chabad on the Messianic issue and not just sweep the problems under the rug.

[muman613]

quote from Muman613 based on Chabad
According to tradition, Moshiach will be wiser than Solomon, and a prophet around the level of Moses.
Before the Rebbe died, Chabadniks tried to show me the Rambam, to prove through their distorted interpretation that the Rebbe was Mashiach or at least the person who would be Mashiach if we have Mashiach in our generation.
Rambam says that if not for sins, Bar Cochba, who was not wiser than Solomon and not a prophet, could have been Mashiach.

Now I would like to ask you a personal question Muman613. Let's say, that hundreds of Breslav Rabbis officially came out with a signed petition, that Rabbi Nachman of Breslav is the Mashiach, who will do all his Mashiach activities in his second coming. And a small minority said even more radical things about him. Wouldn't you feel obligated to come out with a forceful, statement repudiating the idea in order to avoid, Chilul Hashem and spreading of a lie in the nation of Israel.
I assume you would.
If so, where is the forceful statement by Chabad, regarding their Rebbe?
Point 2. For many years, The Vilna Gaon was smeared as having voiced needless opposition to the Chassidic movement of his time. I stress of his time, since the Movement has undergone some changes. I do believe, in order to protect the reputation of the Vilna Gaon and also to prevent a major spiritual obstacle from developing in Israel, it is indeed proper to point out the faults of Chabad on the Messianic issue and not just sweep the problems under the rug.

Oh, I agree with you fully that nobody should be fooled to think that Moshiach has already come.

If I had heard such talk from any one of the Rabbis from Chabad which I personally know I would avoid them and speak out about it. I do not try to sweep this issue under the rug.

I do believe that Rebbe, if he was of the Davidic line may have been a prospective Moshiach. I dont think it is heretical to say that. But once the mission is left unfulfilled he cannot be Moshiach. As you bring up the issue with Bar Kochba, who we call Bar Kosiva because he did not fulfill the prophecies of Moshiach and yet allowed the belief that he was Moshiach to cloud his senses and fall far.... This is one of the reasons we mourn during most of the Omer period:

http://www.ou.org/chagim/sefira/emotions.htm

Another is for the tragic loss by the Jewish People of the Military Campaign which centered on the City of Beitar. This struggle pitted Jewish forces led by a great Jewish leader by the name of Bar Kosiva, against the most powerful of the Roman legions, led by the ablest of the Roman generals. This uprising of the Jewish People in approximately 135 C.E., which by archaeological evidence definitely included the minting of coins, and which some have speculated included the re-conquest of Yerushalayim, with at least the beginning of work on Temple Reconstruction, came to a tragic end with the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Jews.

Another source of tragedy is the failure of the man whom Rabbi Akiva, one of the greatest Jewish leaders of all time, had declared to be the Mashiach. This man, Bar Kosiva, was given the name "Bar Kochba," "Son of the Star," based on a verse of Messianic Prophecy uttered, paradoxically, by one of our People's greatest Biblical enemies, Bilaam the Seer. "I see him, but not now; I perceive him, but not in the immediate future; a star will shoot forth from Yaakov, and a Tribe will arise from Israel, which will destroy the ends of Moav and uproot all the Children of Seth."

http://www.ou.org/chagim/lagbaomer/arrows.htm

Spiritually, the revolt was led by Rabbi Akiva, who endorsed the Revolt and proclaimed Bar Kochba to be the Mashiach. If Rabbi Akiva believed that Bar Kochba was the Moshiach, it is nearly certain that Bar Kochba had at least the potential to be the "real thing."

Tragically, and mysteriously, Bar Kochba lost Divine favor when he erroneously accused Rabbi Elazar of betraying Betar and executed him, triggering the immediate withdrawal of support by Rabbi Akiva and the rest of the Rabbis.

"Bar Kochba," "The Son of the Star," the almost-Mashiach, was now reduced to the name of Bar Kosiva, which was either his real name or another symbolic name, meaning "the son of the lie." He attempted to "go it alone," without the support of the Rabbis and thus, so to speak, also without the support of G-d, against the most powerful of the Roman legions. In the end, his great army was defeated by the Romans, having lost the invincibility guaranteed only by the favor of Hashem, triggering a horrifying massacre of Jews, and the crushing of the last Independent Jewish State until our time.

[Chai]

Interesting to learn that he speaks badly of Breslov Chassidim. This confirms my sentiment. I am not saying that all Breslov Chassidim should be immune from criticism. But I take it that by "speaking badly" you mean something closer to lishon hara than to fair criticism.

Of course Rabbis are only human and, as such, even the most righteous of them have their own shortcomings and weaknesses. But I think there are certain shortcomings that are acceptable and others that are not when you are a Rabbi...
As Rabbi Baal Shem Tov, z''tl, said : "Every spiritual malady has a cure, except for pride".

Hey you know I met Rabbi Mizrachi in person. The Rabbi told me something interesting there is a great need for Rabbis today as good ones are lacking today and thats why he does what he does. I think his attitude seems like that to you because he was in the army . We as JTFers have so many enemies its hard to give people the benefit of the doubt but we should .

Also he has made many religious because he understands the masses  today have short attention spans when it comes to Torah that why he makes jokes. I realize myself now that its important how we judge kiruv Rabbis on forums because it may be the spiritual life and death of a person that wants to learn.

He is very Internet savvy he once asked what benefit is there in criticizing rabbis that take time to  turn jews religious (FOR FREE)

I think you will agree with me that we have lost many great rabbis with few to replace  sefard and askeneaz  ( Kahane , baba sali , rebi nachman , rav kaduri ,  Yisrael Meir Kagan,we even lost Binyamin Ze'ev Kahane! who can hold a candle to the rabbis i mentioned?

lets take what we can get.

[muman613]

Hey you know I met Rabbi Mizrachi in person. The Rabbi told me something interesting there is a great need for Rabbis today as good ones are lacking today and thats why he does what he does. I think his attitude seems like that to you because he was in the army . We as JTFers have so many enemies its hard to give people the benefit of the doubt but we should .

Also he has made many religious because he understands the masses  today have short attention spans when it comes to Torah that why he makes jokes. I realize myself now that its important how we judge kiruv Rabbis on forums because it may be the spiritual life and death of a person that wants to learn.

He is very Internet savvy he once asked what benefit is there in criticizing rabbis that take time to  turn jews religious (FOR FREE)

I think you will agree with me that we have lost many great rabbis with few to replace  sefard and askeneaz  ( Kahane , baba sali , rebi nachman , rav kaduri ,  Yisrael Meir Kagan,we even lost Binyamin Ze'ev Kahane! who can hold a candle to the rabbis i mentioned?

lets take what we can get.

I have nothing against him. I have nothing but ahavat yisroel for just about all the Rabbis on TorahAnyTime { Mostly Rabbi Mizrachi & Rabbi Aderet & Rabbi Wallerstein & Rabbi Schwab } and Israel National News {Including Rabbi Brody & Rabbi Richman & Rabbi Shafier}.

And certainly we don't have any gedolim like in the recent generations...

I have heard stories about Rabbi Kook who was the 1st Ashkenazi Rabbi of Jerusalem...

http://ravkooktorah.org/

Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook (1865-1935) – first Chief Rabbi of pre-state Israel – was a mystic and a philosopher, a preeminent Talmudic scholar and a Lurian Cabbalist, an original thinker and a saintly tzaddik.

Due to his poetic style and abstract thought, his writings are often difficult to understand, even for those fluent in Hebrew and well-versed in traditional Jewish sources. For the English-speaking audience in particular, his books are hidden treasures whose light has not been fully revealed.

I have not attempted to translate his works. Such an undertaking is beyond my capabilities. I am doubtful if it is even possible to lucidly transmit his ideas when constrained to a literal translation. Instead, I have tried to take an idea and present it in a clear, straightforward fashion. Of course, I run the risk of over-simplifying and even misinterpreting the author's true intent. Still, this is a sincere effort that I believe to be faithful to the spirit of the Rav's thought.

    "Our master [Rav Kook] does not deal with the exegesis or the uncovering of hidden meanings in verses. He rarely takes them out of their simple peshat meaning. Nonetheless, they are revealed to the reader as tremendous novelties. The innovation here is not in the elucidation of the verse per se, but in the light that he pours over them."

    Rabbi Hillel Zeitlin, Sifran shel Yechidim, p. 237

Rav Kook did not write a commentary on the Torah as such. I have collected ideas from his writings – primarily from his commentaries on Talmudic Midrashim (Ein Ayah) and the prayer book (Olat Re'iyah) – and organized them according to the weekly Torah readings and holidays.

http://www.ou.org/about/judaism/rabbis/kook.htm

Great Leaders of our People

Rabbi Abraham Yitzchak Kook
(1865-1935)

The first chief rabbi of what was then Palestine, Rabbi Kook was perhaps the most misunderstood figure of his time.

Born in Latvia of staunch Hasidic and Mittnagdic stock, he retained throughout his life a unique blend of the mystical and the rational. He was a thorough master of the entire Halachic, Midrashic, philosophic, ethical, and Kabbalistic literature. But more important, he brought to bear the entire tradition upon the contemporary scene. He saw the return to Eretz Yisrael as not merely a political phenomenon to save Jews from persecution, but an event of extraordinary historical and theological significance. Rabbi Hutner once said that Rav Kook peered down on our world from great heights and hence his perspective was unique.

Above all, Rav Kook pulsated with a sense of the Divine. And, he sought to reach those who had strayed. He once quoted the rabbinic dictum that one should embrace with the right hand and rebuff with the left and commented that he was fully capable of rejecting, but since there were enough rejecters, he was fulfilling the role of embracer. On the other hand, he was never tolerant of desecration of Torah, as will be clear to any objective student of his life and works.

Though keenly aware of the huge numbers of non-observant Jews, he had a vision of the repentance of the nation. His concept of repentance envisioned in addition to the repentance of the individual, a repentance of the nation as a whole; a repentance which would be joyous and healing. He refused to reject Jews as long as they identified themselves as Jews. In a noteworthy exchange with his great friend, admirer, and opponent, Rabbi Yaakov David Willowski, Rav Kook explained the two components of a Jew: his essential nature -- the pintele yid, and the path he had chosen in exercising free will. Even if the second element were weak, as long as the first was not repudiated, there was still hope.

He called for and envisioned a spiritual renaissance where "the ancient would be renewed and the new would be sanctified." His vision of repentance disdained fear and apprehension and looked forward to "the poet of Teshuva, who would be the poet of life, the poet of renewal and the poet of the national soul waiting to be redeemed."

Perhaps he was that poet.

Rav Kook’s printed works to date are in excess of 30 volumes with many works still in manuscript. There are a number of translations into English of a small fraction of his works.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

If you do a little research on the topic, you will find that there are other generations,
that pointed to certain incidents that occured in their time or certain spiritual problems that occured in their time as "proof" that Messiah is about to come.

Thank you for adding some sanity to the thread.  I'm glad I didn't have to be the one to rain on parades this time.

[muman613]

Thank you for adding some sanity to the thread.  I'm glad I didn't have to be the one to rain on parades this time.

So you are saying it is not sane to believe in the arrival of Moshiach, at any moment? That would cast you on the other side of what Rambam has said about this command:

http://www.moshiach.com/translated-texts/analysis-of-maimonides-3-sources-for-the-coming-of-moshiach.html

Whoever does not believe in him, or does not await his coming, denies not only [the statements of] the other prophets, but also [those of] the Torah and of Moshe, our teacher, for the Torah attests to his coming, stating,[3] "And the L-rd your G-d will bring back your captivity."

http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/i-await-his-coming-every-day/03.htm

Our faith and our yearning for Mashiach ? as the Rambam continues, "Whoever does not believe in him, or does not await his coming..." ? should therefore focus not only on his coming, but also on his restoration of the Davidic dynasty and on the complete observance of the Torah and its mitzvos.

In this context, we can understand the Rambam's intent in citing the prooftexts mentioned above for support. The verse that promises the Jewish people that "G-d will bring back your captivity" indicates that there will be an ingathering of the dispersed remnant of Israel. This will make it possible for the Davidic dynasty to be reinstated and for the observance of the Torah and its mitzvos to be restored in its totality.

And one more from Aish.com :

http://www.aish.com/sp/ph/48929482.html

A WORLD WITHOUT THE MESSIAH

Realization of this Principle is not easy because it involves more than awareness and conviction. It demands feelings and thoughts that can only be the products of a very special way of life.

In his Mishneh Torah (Laws of Kings 11:1), Maimonides says: "Anyone who does not believe in him [the Messiah] or does not await his coming not only denies [the truth of his coming, as stated in] the rest of the prophets, he denies Torah and [the prophecy of] Moshe Rabbeinu."

What is meant by "awaiting his coming"? Must one think that he is going to come today? What if today is Shabbat or Yom Tov? Concerning this Principle, Ani Ma'amin states, "I believe with complete faith in the coming of the Messiah, and even if he should tarry, I nevertheless will wait every day for his coming." Does this "waiting every day" apply to Shabbat and Yom Tov, as one would assume?

Actually, our tradition tells us that the Messiah will not come on Shabbat or Yom Tov (Eiruvin 43b). Therefore, one need not anticipate his coming at every moment. What is more, in his Commentary to the Mishnah (Sanhedrin 10:1), Maimonides states: "Whoever doubts or minimizes his [the Messiah's] importance denies the Torah that attests to it." Instead of the need to await his coming, which Maimonides discussed in Mishneh Torah, here he warns against minimizing the Messiah's importance. It would seem, then, that "awaiting him" should be understood as attributing to him so much importance that one is aware of missing something, of lacking something every moment of one's life. It is not enough to know and believe in his coming; one must also feel and understand what it means not to have him in our world.

A world without the Messiah is a world of exile, where Jews find themselves dispersed amongst many nations. It is a world where even in the Land of Israel, Jews are subjected to the whims and values of other nations. It is a world in which terrible barriers created by spiritual apathy deter man from coming close to the Almighty, and where the opportunities to approach Him and to experience His presence in His Temple are gone.

It would seem from my perspective that to live in a world without the hope of the imminent arrival of Moshiach would be insanity...