In the ideal Jewish state, who would be allowed to vote and on what issues?

[edu]

In the ideal Jewish state, who would be allowed to vote and on what issues?
That is to say do we expect some type of righteous king to decide everything without input from the population?Or is the ideal to have some type of constitutional monarchy like in England, where the people decide more or less the direction of the country.
And if you believe the people should decide, which people? Everyone? Just Experts in Torah? Those that serve in the army? or some other litmus test of loyalty?
Or maybe in Economic Areas, you would like the people to have a say, while in other areas the King?
Also maybe someone would like to comment what method, we will use to pick a king? and will he serve for all his lifetime and pass the job to his children?

[Zelhar]

The fact of the matter is we never had an ideal Jewish state. We no longer have anyone with a valid claim for the throne anyway until mashiach comes, which is actually quite fortunate IMO. In any historical and any practical form of a Jewish state there is are civilian authority like a king, or president, with the ability to enact civilian law alongside the religious authority in the form of sanhedrin or knesset gdolah. I think the Sanhedrin is in any case not a ruling authority but a judicial and legislative authority. The king should rule under the religious guidance but he had all the powers (executive, legislative, judicial) and the licence to kill people. It is quite obvious that such absolute power is problematic and proved to be so in Jewish history and in general.

My assumption is that a Jewish state would have all the institutions of a modern republic alongside a Sanhedrin which would have the ability to overrule like a supreme court. The tricky part is how to install the mechanism that nominates the members of Sanhedrin.

[Yaakov Mendel]

The fact of the matter is we never had an ideal Jewish state. We no longer have anyone with a valid claim for the throne anyway until mashiach comes, which is actually quite fortunate IMO. In any historical and any practical form of a Jewish state there is are civilian authority like a king, or president, with the ability to enact civilian law alongside the religious authority in the form of sanhedrin or knesset gdolah. I think the Sanhedrin is in any case not a ruling authority but a judicial and legislative authority. The king should rule under the religious guidance but he had all the powers (executive, legislative, judicial) and the licence to kill people. It is quite obvious that such absolute power is problematic and proved to be so in Jewish history and in general.

My assumption is that a Jewish state would have all the institutions of a modern republic alongside a Sanhedrin which would have the ability to overrule like a supreme court. The tricky part is how to install the mechanism that nominates the members of Sanhedrin.

I fully agree with your analysis.
It seems obvious that the members of Sanhedrin should not be designated by a civilian authority, both in a religious and in a political perspective (separation of powers). The Sanhedrin should be composed of the greatest rabbis in Israel. They should be our modern Sages, guiding us through difficult choices and making sure that the values and the principles of the Torah remain the ultimate source of decision-making at the state level, but without interfering in private affairs and liberties.
In this respect, I think that any new member of the Sanhedrin should be chosen in a spirit of consensus by the current members of the Sanhedrin, without a formal procedure such as a majority vote (that applies to the secular powers).
I think this combination of modern, democratic institutions and a Sanhedrin that has the authority to act a supreme court could be really awesome ! I look forward to the day when it becomes reality.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

We do not have to wait for a moschiach to reestablish the throne of David.   In fact, it is known who is moschiach based on what actions one of those kings will take!    So we have to establish a Jewish govt first, then worry about who fulfills the criteria to be named moshiach.

[muman613]

I don't really understand the question.

A King is a monach and is not voted on. Voting is a democratic principle and the Kingdom of Hashem is a monarcy...

So until Moshiach comes I don't know what the point of appointing a king would be. Unless you are just asking who should be allowed to vote in Israel...

[muman613]

When I first saw you asked this question I was thinking whether you asked it in light of this weeks Haftorah? It is the Haftorah where the people asked Shmuel HaNavi to appoint a king over them...

I received this bit of Torah from Torah.org:

http://www.torah.org/learning/haftorah/korach.html
Parshas Korach
Shmuel 1 11:14

This week's haftorah shares with us a significant perspective about a Jewish government in Eretz Yisroel. The Jewish people had recently approached the prophet Shmuel requesting the appointment of a king. The prophet acquiesced in their request and transferred the mantle of leadership to the most worthy candidate in Israel, Shaul. Shmuel then proceeded to convey strong words of reprimand to the Jewish people for their request. He reviewed with them his personal service both as judge and prophet and challenged them to find any fault in his faithful service. After they attested to Shmuel's perfect record of leadership he reminded them of Hashem's constant favors securing them with perfect leadership at all times.

Shmuel then said "And now here is the king you requested; behold Hashem has given you a king. If you revere Hashem, serve Him and follow His voice without rebelling you and your king will merit the guidance of Hashem. And if you don't adhere...."(12:14). Malbim understands these passages to convey the following message. If the Jewish people follow closely the path of Torah, Hashem will, in effect, be their leader. But if they don't they will not merit His guidance and will ultimately be severely punished for their wrong doings.

The prophet continued and stated, "Is it not the harvest season today? I'll call upon Hashem and He will bring heavy rain. You will see and know the great offense you have committed by requesting a king for yourself."(12:17) Shmuel seems to have admonished the Jewish people merely for requesting a king. Why would a request of this nature be considered so wrong? After all, the Torah does allow for a monarch system and dedicates a full section in Parshas Shoftim to the regulations of a Jewish commonwealth? Malbim explains that at the appropriate moment the notion ofa Jewish king is certainly acceptable. However, during the lifetime of Shmuel Hanavi a request of this nature was considered a rejection of both himself and the Torah he represented. Shmuel had faithfully served and judged his people with all the perfect standards of the Torah. In Shmuel'seyes, therefore the Jewish people's request represented a rejection of the Torah's perfect judicial system. In addition it ref lected a strong desire for the people to establish their own control over the land. Malbim deduces this intent from the marked words of their initial request. They asked,"Now bestow upon us a king to judge us like all the nations." (8:5) He explains that the Jewish people desired to establish their own judicial system whereby they could have total control over the development of their country. They yearned to be like all other nations whose control over their destiny was per se in their own hands. They no longer wished to subjugate themselves to the dictates of the Torah and be led by secret revelations of Hashem told to His prophets.

Malbim concludes that, in truth, timing was the key factor in this request. Had they waited until the passing of their faithful prophet and judge, Shmuel, their request would have been in line. With his passing a sincere need for direction and leadership would have arisen and the request for aking would have been forthcoming. However, while remaining under the devout leadership of Shmuel their request was sinful and completely unacceptable.It reflected a new direction for the Jewish people and a sincere interest to be released from the tight control of Hashem. Shmuel responded by asking Hashem to display fierce thunderstorms. It was customary during the summer months to spread the fruits of the land on the open fields to dry. During this process rain was certainly untimely and unfavorable Although rain, in general is definitely a blessing, during certain moments it can be a sign of Hashem's rejection and displeasure. In fact, Chazal teach us that rain during the Sukkos fe stival is viewed as a sign of rejection. (see Tractate Sukkah 28b) Through this untimely rain and its reflection of rejection, Shmuel informed them that their untimely request for a king was likewise a true sign of rejection.

However Shmuel's response didn't end there. He continued in admonition,"And if you don't adhere to the voice of Hashem but rebel against Him the hand of Hashem will be upon you and your ancestors." Chazal explain this peculiar notion of Hashem's plaguing our ancestors. They profoundly state,"Through the sin of the living the deceased are desecrated." (Yevomos 63b) This means that the sinfulness of an inappropriate government in Eretz Yisroel is so severe that it provokes the desecration of the deceased. Mahral (Chidushei Agados ad loc.) enlightens us about the association of the desecration of the deceased and an inappropriate government in Eretz Yisroel. He explains that from the Torah perspective the desecration of the deceased is regarded as total disorder. After one departs from this world he is entitled to a peaceful and undisturbed rest and the desecration of his remains violates his basic human rights. In this same vein the most basic and appropriate setting for go vernment in Israel is to be governed by the principles of Hashem. After all shouldn't Hashem's will be the law of His land!? It follows that any violation of this and, more specifically,control of the land divorced from His principles is nothing other than total disorder. We now realize that desecration of the deceased, their total disorder is but a natural consequence of a secular, non-religious government in Israel, our total disorder.

At present, the governmental structure in Israel displays some level of respect for the principles of Torah. Let it be the will of Hashem that they be fully recognized in His land and that all disorders amongst the deceased and the living be corrected and perfected speedily in our days.

Rabbi Dovid Siegel

[edu]

Muman613 stated

I don't really understand the question.

A King is a monach and is not voted on. Voting is a democratic principle and the Kingdom of Hashem is a monarcy...

It's not so simple. For example, when Dovid wanted to punish Naval, [see Shmuel/Samuel I chapter 25] according to the Talmud's interpretation, Avigail correctly informed Dovid, that although he was annointed, he didn't have the full authority to punish Naval, because his coins were not yet accepted by the population, that is to say his legal right to be king was not accepted yet by the population. I have another proof concerning Dovid, but I need to research it so that I can quote it accurately.
Furthermore, we have had in our history non-Davidic Kings and some of them came to power by popular will.
I will add, that sometimes even in the Davidic dynasty, sometimes popular will takes a role.
So Rashi, tells us that the people chose a younger son of the Davidic line rather than the natural candidate, the older son, to be the king during the short reign of Yehoachaz, the son of Yoshiyahu [see Divre Haymim II/II Chronicles chapter 36 verse 1].
Also during the time of Rabbi Saadia Gaon, the sages chose the younger son in the Davidic line of the Exilarch{Reish Galuta} to be the new Exilarch {a quasi-royal position} rather than the older son. The older son was so enraged at the Rabbis, that this led him to become the leader of the heretical Karaite movement.
For those that know Hebrew I end with a quote from Rashi, that we should do some type of active
striving to restore the Davidic dynasty and not just leave it all up to G-d
רש"י הושע פרק ג

ישובו בני ישראל ובקשו את ה' וגו' - תנא משום ר"ש בן יוחאי בג' דברים מאסו בני ישראל בימי רחבעם במלכות שמים ובמלכות בית דוד ובבית המקד' הה"ד (מלכים א יב) אין לנו חלק בדוד כמשמעו לאהליך ישראל (שם /מלכים א' יב/) אל תקרי לאהליך אלא לאלהיך ראה ביתך דוד (שם /מלכים א' יב/) זה ב"ה אמר רבי שמעון בן מנסיא אין מראין סימן טוב לישראל עד שיחזרו ויבקשו שלשתן אחר ישובו בני ישראל ובקשו את ה' זו מלכות שמים ואת דוד מלכם כמשמעו ופחדו אל ה' ואל טובו זה בית המקדש כד"א ההר הטוב הזה: