Author Topic: The Reason that David Could Not Build the Temple  (Read 10356 times)

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Offline edu

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The Reason that David Could Not Build the Temple
« on: August 20, 2011, 06:51:52 PM »
One of the reasons given by opponents of Rebuilding the Temple is that our generation like King David's generation is too involved in wars and people who wage wars even for the sake of a mitzva can't build the Temple, which is devoted to peace.
This idea is false. Moshe Rabbeinu was involved in wars and built the Mishkan in the desert.
Yehoshua{Joshua} was involved in many wars, but yet he built the Mishkan in Shilo.
The Maccabees were involved in wars but they rebuilt part of the Temple.
The wicked Herod killed many people, but he still also rebuilt the Temple.
According to Rambam's view Mashiach{Messiah} will wage wars and will also build a Temple.
{Even according to Rambam we can still build the Temple before Mashiach, but I won't get into the subject at this point in time}.
Given all these precedents we must conclude that the fact that David could not build the Temple was not connected to the many wars of Mitzva that he waged. {Except, if you hold by one rabbinic viewpoint that David was too righteous due to all the wars of Mitzva he waged, to build the Temple. A view which I find difficult to accept}.
If so we must look for other explanations for Divrei Hayamim/I Chronicles 22:8 and 28:3 which will explain why G-d did not let David build the Temple.
I hope, G-d willing, to add more on this topic at a later time.

Offline muman613

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Re: The Reason that David Could Not Build the Temple
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2011, 02:41:35 AM »
I believe I remember the answer to this question...

In a reply I gave to a question about David HaMelech I answered this question.

If David HaMelech had built the Temple then it would have stood forever. But Hashem knew that the Jewish people would fall and be exiled and thus he did not allow King David to build the Beit HaMikdash...

Is this the explanation you are thinking of?

Here is the original post I made about it : http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,25101.msg509979.html#msg509979

Quote
R. Nechemya states: "'When You render to every man according to his work' (Tehillim 62:13) — what is 'according to his work'?  There is a person who considers committing a sin, but fails to do so; the Holy One, blessed be He, does not ascribe it to him unless he [actually] does it.  If, however, he intended to perform a mitzva, but because of circumstances beyond his control he fails to perform it, the Holy One, blessed be He, ascribes it to him as if he had done it.

From where do you learn this? You learn from David, who painfully wished to build the Temple…  Immediately, the Holy One, blessed be He, appeared to him through Natan, as it is stated: "And it came to pass that night that the word of the Lord came to Natan, saying… You shall build Me a house" (Shmuel II 7:4-5), and another verse states: "You shall not build Me a house wherein to dwell" (I Divrei Ha-yamim 17:4).  How can these two verses be reconciled? Rather, even though your son Shlomo will build it, it will be called by your name."

Indeed, David was worthy to build it, but the prophet Natan came and said to him: "You shall not build a house to My name, because You have shed much blood upon the earth before Me" (ibid. 22:7).  When David heard this, he was frightened and said: "Surely, I have been disqualified from building the Temple!"  R. Yehuda bar Ila'i said: The Holy One, blessed be He, said to him: "Fear not, David, by your life, all the blood that you shed is before Me like that of a gazelle or a deer, about which it is stated: 'The unclean and the clean may eat of it as they do of the gazelle and the deer.  Only you shall not eat the blood; you shall pour it upon the earth like water' (Devarim 12:15-16)."[12]

He said to Him: "If so, why can't I build it?" The Holy One, blessed be He, said to Him: "If you build it, it will stand forever and never be destroyed." He said before Him: "Surely that is good!" The Holy One, blessed be He, said: "It is revealed and known to Me, that in the future Israel will sin, and I will diffuse My anger by destroying [the Temple], and Israel will be spared."  This is what is written: "He has bent His bow like an enemy… He has poured out His fury like fire" (Eikha 2:4).  The Holy One, blessed be He, said to him: "Even though you will not build it, since you wanted to build it, I will ascribe it to your name."  As it is stated: "A psalm and song at the dedication of the house; of David" (Tehillim 30:1).  It does not say "of Shlomo," but rather "of David." Why?  This is because he desired to build it.  Thus we learn that whoever intends to perform a mitzva, even if, on account of circumstances beyond his control, he fails to do it, the Holy One, blessed be He, regards him as if he had performed it."[13]

See : http://vbm-torah.org/archive/mikdash3/70mikdash.htm

« Last Edit: August 21, 2011, 03:03:19 AM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline stalepie

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Re: The Reason that David Could Not Build the Temple
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2011, 03:00:11 AM »
Just rebuild the temple now. Why do you need to wait for the Messiah to prove himself?

http://www.beingjewish.com/unchanged/rebuild.html

"The most obvious answer would seem to be that we can't for political and safety reasons. The Muslims have control over the Temple Mount, and for us to destroy the Muslims' holy site to build our own would be a terrible and most dangerous idea. There would be no Jew safe in the entire world, or at least wherever there are Muslims."

So you guys fear the Muslims that much? Why? I find them fairly stupid. I would fear Christians more. If the Holocaust happened already, then you ought to fear Christians the most, I would think, since they killed more Jews with greater efficiency (speed) than Muslims ever have.

But you guys are great friends with Christians.

Well, let me introduce you an idea: it's Christians holding you back. Maybe it's like Bill Maher says: they only want you there (in Israel) so that you can eventually -- most of you -- be destroyed (with a remnant saved by Jesus). That's generally what Christians believe.

So you need to watch out for that. Christians practice their own sort of "taqiyya."

Actually all gentiles do. All humans do. It's kind of just endemic to our species.

But I think if you want you can just push out all gentiles from Israel, rapidly, including Noahides perhaps, including those living their peaceably, until later when it's a good time to allow them back in, when you have more control. Because right now it sounds to me you guys don't have much control. You don't have your own country. It says it's Israel, you claim it as yours, but in effect it isn't. You can't do what you want there. You can't build your temple.

You're waiting for some guy called the "Messiah" to do it for you, I guess. You're waiting for a magician, I think, some kind of wizard to just magically fix everything for you, as though most Jews can't afford plane tickets and move to Israel any time they want, or get there through other surreptitious ways. 

You know, I hate to turn this into a long-winded rant nobody is going to read ("tl;dr"), but maybe people like Alex Jones and Glenn Beck aren't entirely WRONG in some of their fears about this country (America, if that's where most JTFers live) turning into a police state. I said, before, "if the Holocaust happened yet," well what I meant was that if the Holocaust deniers are right that it didn't happen in the past, perhaps it will happen in the future.

I don't want it to, but I'm just saying there's like 6 million Jews who live outside of Israel, and I'm thinking (or at least it's a recurring thought with me) that perhaps the whole FEMA camp thing, that Glenn Beck addressed (and dismissed), is actually true. And that it will mainly be Jews and their supporters who are thrown in. Why not? And also the no-fly lists, thanks to the PATRIOT ACT, you could be put on no-fly lists so that you cannot leave the country easily, except, as I said, surreptitiously.

(Such as through Mexico, by boat and smuggling, Canada, etc).

I'm not calling for anyone to be exterminated or killed. Just saying that we are moving into a world where corporations and politicians do have great power and sometimes they don't always like Jews. I mean, I know you guys find that Naomi Wolf type stuff about America hard to believe. It's all a bunch of liberal nonsense to you.

I don't know. I don't know the future. Just felt like rambling a bit. I'm probably like Zishe at the end of Werner Herzog's "Invincible," trying to warn others of their future, not that I've really had any great visions, and not that I'm Jewish (as far as I know).

Offline muman613

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Re: The Reason that David Could Not Build the Temple
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2011, 03:09:04 AM »
Stalepie you will get nowhere fast around here with posts like this.

I don't know why you think that our enemy is not the muslims who have stated clearly that they want to wipe Israel and Jews out of existence. You must be aware that Hitlers Mein Kamf and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are both best selling books in the muslim/arab world? Do you not take their daily threats and provocations seriously?

I do not understand why people like you come around here trying to make trouble. The Christians have provided the Jews in America a very safe place for the last century. My family is grateful to this country and I am the third generation and we have prospered here. I am certainly aware of the ill treatment at the hands of the sons of Essau in Europe and Ukraine. My family emigrated from Ukraine after many pogroms against the Jews there.

Also you seem to totally miss the reason the edu posted this thread. He is not saying that we should wait for Moshiach before building the temple. Most of the religious JTF members and most religions Zionists are supportive of starting the rebuilding process. I don't know where you came with your misunderstanding of what was written...

See this thread for further discussion of Jewish belief in redemption process : http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,56755.0.html
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline stalepie

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Re: The Reason that David Could Not Build the Temple
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2011, 03:14:52 AM »
The Muslims are certainly your enemies. However most of humanity is as well. Be caerful about categories and just guarding against certain kinds of people.

Offline edu

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Re: The Reason that David Could Not Build the Temple
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2011, 05:39:07 AM »
Yes I hinted to Muman613's answer
Quote
If David HaMelech had built the Temple then it would have stood forever. But Hashem knew that the Jewish people would fall and be exiled and thus he did not allow King David to build the Beit HaMikdash...
that this is indeed the belief of some Rabbis. Namely, that G-d wanted David's son to build the Temple in order to allow for the possibility of having the Temple destroyed at a later date. That is what I meant by the statement David was too good, to build the Temple.
The #1 difficulty I have with that view is that Yehoshua/Joshua, was also on a very high spiritual level, but that didn't stop G-d both from allowing Yehoshua to build the Mishkan at Shilo or from letting it be destroyed in a later generation that deserved punishment.
A more minor difficulty I have with that position, is that we say that G-d usually judges people by their present actions and not by their future. So when, Yishmael the father of our Arab enemies, was in a danger of dying from thirst, Rashi tells us that the angels complained, that his sons would in the future cause some of the people of Israel to die from thirst so please don't save him. G-d answered them back, that right now he is on the level that he deserves to be saved, and I am not going to take into account the future. With the above explanation for why David couldn't build the Temple, it seems to be going a bit against this rule.
One of the first of a number of alternate explanations which I hope to present in the coming days is based on Sifri to Parshat Eikav
ספרי דברים פרשת עקב פיסקא נא

אם תאמר מפני מה כבש דוד ארם נהרים וארם צובה ואין מצות נוהגות שם אמרת דוד עשה שלא כתורה התורה אמרה משתכבשו ארץ ישראל תהו רשאים לכבש חוצה לארץ והוא לא עשה כן אלא חזר וכבש ארם נהרים וארם צובה ואת היבוסי סמוך לירושלם לא הוריש אמר לו המקום את היבוסי סמוך לפלטורין שלך לא הורשת היאך אתה חוזר ומכבש ארם נהרים וארם צובה.
Sifri and I believe some of the Rishonim, said that David violated the Torah for he should have first  expelled all of the 7 nations of Canaan from the land of Israel before waging wars of conquest outside the land.
In other words G-d didn't have a problem in principle with War, but only how Dovid waged some of his wars or his priorities in War.
Later on though I hope to provide an even better explanation.
One final comment to Stalepie. I don't think building the Temple is dependant on Messiah. I just mentioned Rambam's opinion, because based on his views, many individuals do believe, rightly or wrongly, that it is Messiah's job.
A second point to make to "Stalepie" is that just like the reestablishment of the state of Israel, made many Christians rethink their theological positions towards the Jews and improved their attitudes towards us. I think the sanctification of G-d's name that a new Temple would bring, would cause a substantial change for the better in attitude of many of the world's population towards the Jewish people.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: The Reason that David Could Not Build the Temple
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2011, 07:59:53 AM »
Why do you need to wait for messiah to prove himself

We don't.

Offline edu

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Re: The Reason that David Could Not Build the Temple
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2011, 04:13:21 AM »
Melachim/Kings I, 15:5 States that David did what was upright in the eyes of G-d, he did not depart from all that he commanded him all his days, except for the matter of Uriah HaChitti.

An interesting question arises, how can the Sages offer some criticism of David at all outside of the issue of Uriah in light of this verse in the Tanach. Another interesting, question is that David himself admits that he sinned when he counted Israel, close to the end of his life (Shmuel/Samuel II 24:10). Why then does the verse in Melachim/Kings I, 15:5 not count this sin?

In any case, since the Tanach focuses on the matter of Uriah Hachitti, it would be only natural to focus on whether we can connect the matter of Uriah Hachitti to the reason that G-d did not allow David to build the Temple.
Indeed this is part of the reason that Radak, offers, for the reason that G-d did not allow David to build.
However, there is also a problem with this view.
1) G-d already informed David before the incident with Uriah Hachitti that he would not build the Temple.
2) Although it is true that Uriah Hachitti as well as several other soldiers were sent on a suicide military mission and were killed, it does not fit so well with the exact wording used by David in the Tanach to explain why he was prevented from building the Temple.
Maybe you might try to answer both  questions by saying that the seeds of the sin, were already there in David at the time, when G-d told him, he would not build the Temple, even though, they only came to the surface, at the time of Uriah.
I hope though, later on to provide a better answer.

Offline edu

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Re: The Reason that David Could Not Build the Temple
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2011, 03:43:51 PM »
Now I will try to present a better explanation, what were the big wars and bloodshed that prevented David from building the Temple.
But first I will begin with a question. After David explains in the Tanach that he was invalidated from building the Temple because he was a man of wars and spilled much blood on the ground, he does something that seems pretty odd.
He tells his successor, Shlomo {Solomon} who the prophet predicted would build the Temple to arrange for the execution of potential troublemakers, such as Yoav and Shimi the son of Gera [I Melachim/Kings chapter 2].
Shlomo obeys and even goes further. When he sees an indication that his brother, Adoniyahu, has not given up plans of seizing the throne, he also executes Adoniyahu.
Despite all this bloodshed, Shlomo indeed does build the Temple.
And the obvious question, is why, when Shlomo sheds blood is it not an obstacle to building the Temple, but it is for David?

It appears to me, that David asked himself, if wars of Mitzva are fulfilling the will of G-d, what other wars and spilling of blood, could Hashem be enough upset about to cause me to be disqualified from building the Temple.
David concluded, it must be that I had the ability to do some action to stop an unnecessary war or at least it was in my hands to turn a war defeat into a war victory yet I failed to do so.
David at the end of his life concluded, I will at least instruct my son, Shlomo not to repeat my error, by asking him to get rid of the troublemakers at the outset in order to ensure public safety.
Where else do we find that not getting rid of the troublemakers in a timely fashion damages the Temple?
The answer is in tractate Gittin.
In the tractate Gittin pages 55 and 56 we learn that the Caesar of Rome sent an animal to be sacrificed at the Temple and the wicked man, Bar Kamtza physically damaged the animal. It was a type of  blemish that invalidates the animal for the sacrificial service by Torah standards, however, according to the standards of the Gentiles, it does not.
    The sages of the Sanhedrin thought to eliminate Bar Kamtza who threatened to inform to the Emperor that the Jews were planning a revolt against Rome. The proof being that the Jews didn't agree to sacrifice the Emperor's animal.
    At the end they did not kill Bar Kamtza because an elder of the Sanhedrin, Rabbi Zechariah son of Avkulos claimed that one should be pious above the law and not kill Bar Kamtza [who was a Rodef] because perhaps people will wrongfully deduce that Bar Kamtza was killed because he put a blemish on an animal that was consecrated for a sacrifice and not because he was a Rodef.
    Concerning the piety of Rabbi Zechariah the Talmud states: "Rabbi Yochanan said 'Onvutanuto' of Rabbi Zechariah son of Avkulos destroyed our Temple burnt the Heichal Building [where the Holy of Holies was located] and exiled us from our land".
    Rashi explained there, 'Onvutanuto' - His tolerance that he tolerated this and did not kill him".
    And the Meiri commentary there explained: - "And you learn from this that all who have a presumption of striking the community by means of the monarchy, it is permitted to kill him and as they said, "they thought to kill him so he wouldn't go and inform on them to the monarchy. Rabbi Zechariah said to them", etc. Now they said about him, the tolerance that he tolerated this and did not kill him destroyed our Temple".

The obvious question then is what was the unnecessary bloodshed, or defeat did  David blame himself for at the end of his life..
I have 2 possible answers, but I will choose to write only about the one, with firm Rabbinical sources.

Namely, had David acted more harshly to Avshalom, {even without killing him} he could have prevented the major civil war that his son Avshalom had instigated. And even though, the war took place after David was already informed that he would not build the Temple, we can say that the seeds of Avshalom's rebellion were already there earlier on.
In what way were the seeds of Avshalom's rebellion already present, when G-d told David he would not build the Temple?

At first I thought to bring tractate Sanhedrin 107a as proof. Afterwards, I found in Midrash Tanchuma at the beginning of  Parshat Ki Teizei, an even more explicit proof.

When you go out for war, etc. and you take captives (Dvarim/Deut. 21:10). Our Rabbis taught, a mitzvah brings about (lit. drags along) another mitzvah and a transgression brings about a transgression, And you shall see among the captives a beautiful woman [etc.] and you shall shave her head (there Dvarim/Deut. 21:11,12) in order that she should not find favor in his eyes. What is written afterwards?
If a man has two wives (see there, Dvarim/Deut. 21:15); two women in the house, and there is a quarrel in the house, and furthermore, one of them is beloved and one is hated or both of them are hated. What is written after this? When a man has a stubborn and rebellious son (there, Dvarim/Deut. 21:18). All who marry a beautiful woman (from among the captives), a stubborn and rebellious son will emanate from this relationship. For thus we found with David. Because he desired Maacah the daughter of Talmai, King of Geshur, when he went out for war, Avashalom emanated from him, that sought to kill him, and slept with his wives before all the eyes of Israel and in front of the sun. And through him several tens of thousands of Israel were killed, and he caused a dispute in Israel, and Shimi the son of Gera was killed, and Sheva the son of Bichri, and Achitophel and Mephiboshet, and Ish Boshet, (comment: Eitz Yosef says  Ish Boshet should be eliminated from the list, while Mephiboshet was not physically killed but severely economically damaged and I will add put to public shame {see, Orchot Tzaddikim, Shaar Habusha, on the serious of publicly shaming a fellow Jew} and Tziva was made the master over the house of Shaul.

In addition to all this, Midrash Tanchuma to Shmot, also faults David, with giving Avshalom a poor upbringing by not punishing him for evil behavior. By not punishing Avshalom in time, Midrash Tanchuma explains that David is to blame, for Avshalom's evil behavior later on, which included trying to kill David, sleeping with ten of David's wives and causing thousands from Israel to fall (in battle).

Two questions on the above explanation that links David's inability to build the Temple to the episode of Avshalom.

Question 1] Where do we find, that not preventing a crime is made equivalent to some degree to the crime? David was just guilty in not preventing the needless civil war of Avshalom, he himself, did not actively instigate that war.
Answer] We do find that somehow who has the power to prevent evil is somewhat blamed as if he actively did that evil. So for example, the Talmud in tractate Shabbat 56b {Soncino translation} states
But it is written, And Solomon did that which was evil in the sight of the L-rd?( I Kings XI, 6.) — But because he should have restrained his wives, but did not, the Writ regards him as though he sinned.
Question 2] When the Tanach invalidated David from building the Temple, he is called a man of wars [in the plural]. The civil war of Avshalom was only one war.
Answer] Midrash Tanchuma as I already brought above, attributes also the civil war of Sheva Ben Bichri, as being a byproduct of David taking Avshalom's mother as a wife, from among the captives.
Question 3 How can the Rabbis be so critical of marrying a beautiful captive woman, after all the Torah allows it?
Answer Concerning the beautiful captive woman, our Rabbis in tractate Kiddushin 21b, taught (Soncino translation): The Torah only provided for human passions: it is better for Israel to eat flesh of animals] about to die, yet [ritually] slaughtered, than flesh of dying animals which have perished (Soncino comments: Without ritual slaughter. The first too is repulsive, but sanctioned.). End of Quotation

In other words David was expected to realize that this law was meant just for people who are overpowered by their passions and close to rebellion against G-d. It is a leniency not meant to be practiced by the anointed of G-d, who received Divine Inspiration, and authored much of the book of Tehillim/Psalms.

Offline muman613

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Re: The Reason that David Could Not Build the Temple
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2011, 12:16:31 AM »
Very interesting... Our David HaMelech is one of the most difficult personas to fully appreciate. He has so many great traits, and yet the sages discuss many of his failures. In a way it is a puzzle which needs much study in order to render a decision concerning King David.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14