Dear Christianity,

[Lisa]

Jbeige, I just saw your dig at Muman, which was totally uncalled for. 

Yes he had his problems in the past, but he worked them out and made something good of his life.  What's your point?  I have a hard time believing you have been the model of virtue your entire life.  So I think you owe Muman an apology. 

[muman613]

Muman, I read the original post.  

Of course I'm against misisionizing, and I'm well aware of the anti-semitism against Jews committed in the name of Christianity.  We don't allow missionizing here.  Anyone who tries it is banned immediately, as are anti-Semite trolls.  

Now from my experience as an administrator on this forum, I've seen how these types of threads morph into a Judaism vs. Christianity thing, and they always end up getting locked because of people bickering.  I don't want to see that again here.  

Certainly... I am sorry if what I wrote causes any bickering. I explained why I offered my opinion on the topic and otherwise I don't want to keep this going.

But how about Lashon Hara? jbeige has obviously attacked my character. I know that many here at JTF are supportive of me and I don't need to be validated by jbeige.

What I did almost 10 years ago was bad but it was something I needed to go through in order to end up where I am today. The Sages wrote that 'A Baal Teshuva stands where no person born Righteous can stand'. The Torah is full of the concept of repentance. Look at the story of Adam & Eve, the episode of the sin of the golden calf, and even King David... The prototype of repentance is the sin of the golden calf for which Hashem spared the entire Jewish people despite them having committed the gravest offense of idolatry. This is the major theme of Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur...

[Lisa]

Jbeige, we've all done things in the past we haven't been proud of.  But you chose to throw that in Muman's face.  You owe him an apology.

[muman613]

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/137090/jewish/Tzaddik-The-Baal-Teshuvah.htm

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G-d puts tzaddikim in this world to testify to the fact that He exists.13 By virtue of our connection to these righteous people and our belief in them, we are provided with a channel to connect with G-d.

The letter tzaddik has two forms. There is the bent tzaddik which occurs at the beginning or middle of a word. Then there is the straight tzaddik which occurs at the end of a word. What is the significance of each? The straight tzaddik represents the baal teshuvah, one who has worked to improve his connection to G-d and returned to his essential holy nature. The bent tzaddik is born righteous, but has not yet reached the level of a baal teshuvah. As we are told, even a complete tzaddik cannot stand in the place of a baal teshuvah.14 A baal teshuvah stands higher.

What does this mean? How is it possible that a baal teshuvah—one who has sinned all his life and then decides to change—stands higher than a tzaddik? There are two reasons. The first is that the one who has transgressed has already tasted cheese­burgers and lobster, and relished them. Now he must wrest himself from their grip. It is similar to the difficulty experi­enced by a long-time smoker who now wants to quit. There might be a certain temptation on the part of one who has never smoked to try a cigarette. But having never smoked, it is much easier for him to control the temptation. One who has already experienced its physical pleasure, however, might be hooked. It is very difficult to extirpate that aspect from his life, and it requires tremendous strength and commitment. Thus a baal teshuvah who was born to a non-religious home, who never learned anything about Judaism, and lives according to the secular ways of the world creates an elevated connection to G-d when he decides to change. G-d says, “You, My dear child, stand higher than the tzaddik.”

The second reason the baal teshuvah stands higher than the tzaddik is that the wrongdoings of the baal teshuvah are con­verted into mitzvos. Once his past sins have been renounced, they are actually credited as positive command­ments.15
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13.      See Sefer HaIkarim, book 3, chs. 8, 12.
14.      Rambam’s Code of Jewish Law: Laws of Teshuvah 7:4.
15.      There are three basic ways to acquire merit through the commandments: The first comprises the 248 positive, or active, commandments (i.e., doing something that has been commanded). The second includes the 365 negative, or passive, commandments (i.e., refraining from doing something prohibited). The third is the transformation of a negative commandment into a positive one (through the process of teshuvah or repentance).

[nessuno]

Dear Christiandom

Lisa,

Did you read the original post. It did not say that Christians are enemies. I do not see that... It asks for Christian missionaries to leave us alone. It says that we are just fine worshiping G-d. I don't understand why anyone would be opposed to that? The fact that we have been on the sharp end of the sword so many times in history is very sad. But the original post did not even exhibit any anger.

Honestly I think some people are just too sensitive. It is essential for Jews to be proud to be Jews and not be ashamed of it. Rabbi Kahane was intimately aware of this and he was 100% against intermarriage. Do our non-Jewish members consider that too to be anti-Christian? It is not anti-Christian, it is 100% pro-Jewish. In order to remain Jewish we need strong Jewish youth...I believe Rabbi Kahane was right.

What does this have to do with anything or that original post?
Why would I want a Jewish person not to be proud of being Jewish?

Ashamed?  Why would they be ashamed?
On that note...Why should I be ashamed to be Catholic?
You Muman are a foolish man.  I agree with JBeige.  You want respect.  Yet, you never stop being derogatory to the Christian members of this forum.  Who do not missioninze or do anything but support the Jewish people.  So you lead a good and decent life now.  Great for you.  Some of us have tried to do that our whole lives.  Do we ask to be patted on the back for it.  You are driving good and decent people from wishing to work with JTF.  Especially touting posts like the original in this thread.
I'm sorry Lisa.  I agree with JBeige.

[muman613]

Dear ChristiandomWhat does this have to do with anything or that original post?
Why would I want a Jewish person not to be proud of being Jewish?

Ashamed?  Why would they be ashamed?
On that note...Why should I be ashamed to be Catholic?
You Muman are a foolish man.  I agree with JBeige.  You want respect.  Yet, you never stop being derogatory to the Christian members of this forum.  Who do not missioninze or do anything but support the Jewish people.  So you lead a good and decent life now.  Great for you.  Some of us have tried to do that our whole lives.  Do we ask to be patted on the back for it.  You are driving good and decent people from wishing to work with JTF.  Especially touting posts like the original in this thread.
I'm sorry Lisa.  I agree with JBeige.

Bullcat, what BS...

I was not derogatory to anyone... If anything you are constantly speaking of me in a derogatory manner. In this thread, or in any other thread, I have never called a Christian a bad name, have I said they are going to hell, or otherwise disparaged them. You on the other hand take every opportunity you can to attack me. I don't know what the heck your problem is... But look at the history of the messages and figure out what your problem is.

What have I said which 'drives people away from JTF'? Are you offended when a Jew says 'Its OK to be Jewish?'. It seems that you do. Every time I have expressed the idea that Jews have suffered at the hands of the Christian you, instead of feeling compassion you seek to justify or minimize it.

You really seem to want to have an issue with me.. That is really not my problem. My opinion of the original post stands.


Here is a reproduction of the post which Bullcat has issue with:

I dont see anything which is offensive in this post. It is 100% true... It is not a secret that Jews do not believe in the Christian 'messiah'... And maybe a gentile reader can understand that Jews are G-ds chosen people and do not deserve the disrespect we have been shown.

For those who find it offensive I am sorry... But the Jewish people found it offensive for 1000s of years to be subjected to the forced conversions, pogroms, crusades, and inquisitions. Rabbi Kahane was not shy to talk about these events nor should any Jew worth his world to come..

[cjd]

Maybe I didn't use the right word, So I will say what I meant by that and you can label it.
I'm talking about some people on here who went to town drinking and smoking everything under the sun and taking drugs and never following the Torah and suddenly they follow it for a few years and suddenly they become these holy rollers that can preach about religion and the Big Bad Christians.
This goes for any religion, I don't believe in this born again and becoming a preacher stuff.
Sorry but anyone like that from any religion I can not take serious and their word and preaching should just be ignored.

I have to agree here... There is nothing worse than listening to stuff like this from a person who by their own word tell of how they spent a good part of their life doing things  people just shouldn't do... It's all well and fine to warn people of living that sort of life style but to stand on a pedestal like some sort of rabbinic sage or clergy just rubs me wrong... muman you really need to stop your nonsense.... You have cause untold division here on this forum with your piling on to threads like this... If you wanted to preach you should have kept your past dealings a secret... The storm had me off the forum for a few days however I saw this thread tonight  and it's just more of the same... Sorry if my post offends but this sort of nonsense causes our movement to loose ground.   

[cjd]

Jbeige, we've all done things in the past we haven't been proud of.  But you chose to throw that in Muman's face.  You owe him an apology.

No... I respectfully have to disagree here... Yes we have all done things we might not be proud of but that person should try to lead by example not preach from the pulpit like a TV missionary.... If we can't call a spade a spade here we may have drifted away from one of the policies that made JTF unique... Our forum use to attract a wide target of different people... It's threads like this that have caused many non Jewish people to loose interest in our movement.

[muman613]

No... I respectfully have to disagree here... Yes we have all done things we might not be proud of but that person should try to lead by example not preach from the pulpit like a TV missionary.... If we can't call a spade a spade here we may have drifted away from one of the policies that made JTF unique... Our forum use to attract a wide target of different people... It's threads like this that have caused many non Jewish people to loose interest in our movement.

What have you been smoking mr cjd? I do not preach... Please show me where I have preached anything. I bring to the table what I have learned. What I have learned is Orthodox Judaism straight from the Torah, Tanakh, and Talmud. I study the scriptures at least 2 hours a day, and if you have any questions about what I am talking about concerning Judaism you have had every opportunity to chime in, but you have not.

Please show me what it is you think I am 'preaching'? As I said before we have no such concept in Judaism. You learn from the sources, what Rabbi A said concerning Halacha, what argument Rabbi B had with Rabbi A, etc. I have brought abundant sources concerning my posts regarding Jewish law and faith. What exactly is it you have a problem with? I have never suggested I am a rabbi, and I learn from other Jews who are Torah scholars.

And my past was only revealed in order to show others that a person CAN change if he wishes himself to. I never was completely fallen, and I always was employed in my profession {over 26 years in my software engineering profession}. I have no regrets about what happened in my life because everything happened for a reason and I am currently living a good life and support my family and my community. I try to set an example to everyone around me, and I have succeeded in affecting people and I see the results.

You also did not say what exactly it is about this thread which is offensive. Would you mind exposing what the problem is instead of just attacking me?

I am very disappointed in you cjd... Why you find a need to denigrate me. I sure hope you are not Jewish.

[cjd]

Sad to say for me I do smoke a few hand made cigars and a pipe now and then...  I don't see them as causing what I wrote here to be any different then what it would normally be unless the pro pot people are sneaking something into my tobacco supply  muman it seems we have grown up in places that were quite different... Here in New York, the New York I grew up in anyway we never had this so called proselytizing situation that you folks outside of New York seem to deal with... Arguments, disagreements, seeing things from different angles yes, but for the most part Jew's and Gentiles here in New York got along quite well... It was sort of a Macy's, Gimbels thing of who had the better religion however nobody was trying to convert anybody... It's all well and fine that you were able to pull yourself back from the path your were on however it was not Gentiles that put you on that path and if there was temptation out there it was the same temptation that everyone else in the world has to deal with... The temptation was not designed to lure only Jews away from their religion... Look, The brass tacks of the issue is that you never fail to hop on the band wagon when it comes to this sort of thread... The original poster made a point and you true to form had to bring it to the next level... All I am going to say is the old Kahane Forum was a very boring place to spend time at... I only hope that is not the business model you have in mind for our forum... It's not enough to only shield our good members from being called proselytizers you need to name the names of the groups  doing the proselytizing so we can all see them in action... Gentiles coming to our forum for the first time will be put off by all this blanket talk of proselytizing... It seems at times your even to much for the Jewish membership to deal with with some of the positions you take on things and yes you do alway back yourself up with Rabbinic opinions but there is a limit of how much of the so called "clip and post" people are willing to read... The political season for the presidential campaigns here in America are starting and I was wishing that JTF could play a big part in that online... That can never happen if we are going to run threads that drive people away with their fist visit to our forum.

[nessuno]

Muman...my forum name is BullCat. 
I don't think you meant to be derogatory when you called me BullShot.  Right?
I see you edited that right out of your post to CJD.

Typical.

I don't think you have the right to question my support of the Jewish people.  Here in America or over in Israel.  I'm not going to defend myself against the accusation that I support antisemitic behavior or the persecution of the Jewish people.  That is just stupid.

My father (G-d bless him) taught me to have respect for the Jewish people.
My religious upbringing taught me nothing different.

You know that my support of the Jewish people is not an issue.  Don't try to go there.

You make Christianity an issue every chance you get. 
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Are you attempting to make Christians feel uncomfortable here?
I'm not going to allow you to do that.  My problem with you lies right there. 
Stop attacking Christianity or piling on.  You never let the opportunity pass. 
There are bigger issues for JTF to deal with than having the support of some Christians.

[muman613]

Good Morning,

I have had some time last night to think about things and I would like to explain once again what my feelings are. First of all I would like to apologize once again to all those who feel that I am trying to offend them, or that I have any big problem or disdain for Christians. I would like to work things out because my feeling is that I often am misunderstood. I have tried to explain this before but I have failed to express what I really feel.

Also BC... I did get upset when I initially responded and I did take a snipe at you with that name.... I am human and I do get emotional and irrational when I get angry. It may be hard to believe but I have had problems with my temper and I do a lot of work trying to contain my anger in the hopes of being able to express the feelings in a positive manner. I always believe that there are two ways to solve a problem, either the negative destructive way, or the positive constructive way. I believe that we should always seek a positive constructive solution to problems.

I also think about what I post long after I post it. This is why I come back later and fix spelling and grammar errors, and if I say something which I regret I will remove it. I removed the snipe at you because I do not intend to provoke and prolong this disagreement. I would like to work toward mutual understanding.

I agree that this thread has devolved into something negative.. I understand that we have to work for the positive goal of changing the course of America by helping defeat Obama... I would enjoy working for that cause..

PS: I hope to write more to explain my apology later today...