Author Topic: Where is it written? (Read 2384 times)

muman613 · « **on:** October 03, 2011, 03:11:05 PM »

What is bothering me today is when I read that several very prominent Rabbis in Israel are condemning the 'price tag' operations. While we here at JTF don't necessarily condemn what is happening I am trying to understand why these Rabbis are claiming that Mosques and Qurans are 'Holy Writing'... According to Jewish belief the last Holy Books were written long before Mohamud was born. We do not believe that Mohamud was a prophet {the age of prophecy ended with Malachi} and thus I cannot see why any Rabbi would call Islam holy... Thus we do not consider mosques to be holy nor should korans be considered holy...

If anyone can provide me with the Halachic rational that these Rabbis are using to rebuke Jews I would like to know where it comes from...

muman613 · « **Reply #1 on:** October 03, 2011, 03:16:14 PM »

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/148446

Chief Rabbis Condemn Suspected Mosque Arson
Israel's chief rabbis condemned all religiously motivated violence while surveying the burnt Tuba Zangria mosque.

Israel's chief rabbis condemned the suspected arson of a mosque in the village of Tuba Zangria on Monday.

The rabbis accompanied Israeli President Shimon Peres to survey the burnt mosque as a part of an ecumenical delegation consisting of Jewish, Christian, Muslim, and Druze religious leaders. During the visit the rabbis expressed their opposition to all religiously motivated violence.

"I and my fellow religious leaders crying out for the police, who have the criminal in custody, to prosecute the perpetrator to the full extent the law allows," Sephardic Chief Rabbi Shlomo Amar said. "This is blasphemy, a desecration of the State of Israel, and a desecration of all peoples and religions."

"We all have to speak loudly against terrorism,” Rabbi Amar added, finishing with the prayer "He makes peace in His heights."

Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi Yonah Metzger said the Jewish people's persecution for its own religious beliefs had had sensitized them in their attitude to other faiths.

"Seventy years ago they burned synagogues and Torah scrolls," Rabbi Metzger said. "We cannot accept that will happen to any other religion. The mosque as a house of worship is a synagogue and the Embassy of God. It must not harm."

The two chief rabbis’ statements echo those of Rabbi Chaim Druckman, who earlier on Monday, condemned so-called 'price tag' attacks, which many have assumed the Mosque fire is a result of.

"All of the actions that are undertaken under the headline 'Price Tag' are horrible, shocking, anti-Jewish and anti-morality," Rabbi Druckman said.

Rabbinic condemnation of violence targeting religious sanctuaries and texts has been widespread following the Zangria mosque fire.

Earlier Monday police announced they several suspects in custody, but have not revealed their identities or established their guilt. The investigation is ongoing.

For his part, President Shimon Peres immediately asked local Sheikh Muammad Ciwan for forgiveness for the suspected arson.

"I am full of shame and disgrace on the odious act," Peres said. "I came here, saw the mosque burnt and I'm shaken to the core. This is blasphemy and we will not tolerate this abomination. I believe that there is not one Israeli who is not ashamed to face the fire in the mosque. This heinous act is not only against the law, it is against Judaism, morality and spirit."

Dr. Dan · « **Reply #2 on:** October 03, 2011, 03:43:22 PM »

Shimon Perresite...Ymach shmo vizichro. You are seem to never be ashamed when your enemies hurt the Jewish people, but here you grovel and cry for the poor Muslim Nazis...

Kahane-Was-Right BT · « **Reply #3 on:** October 03, 2011, 08:22:03 PM »

Its very simple. When a rabbi receives a salary from the state of israel, he will say what the israeli govt wants him to say. And when such a rabbi also happens to be a mamlachti drone who worships the state and has a galut mentality to boot, well you have quite the recipe there.

Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks · « **Reply #4 on:** October 03, 2011, 08:31:36 PM »

Rabbi Druckman or Rabbi Dreckman?

muman613 · « **Reply #5 on:** October 03, 2011, 09:36:43 PM »

I just want to know what 'Halachic Basis' there is to say these things... I have been searching and searching and cannot find a single source which supports the concept that Islam is Holy according to Jewish belief...

muman613 · « **Reply #6 on:** October 03, 2011, 09:49:17 PM »

The closest explanation I can find is in relation to the question about whether a Jew can enter a Church or a Mosque. Most of the responses indicate that the sages forbade a Jew from entering a Church because of concerns of Idolatry while a Jew can enter a mosque because supposedly the muslims worship 'the one true G-d'... While there is some disagreement between some of the sages, the majority opinion is that it is OK to enter a mosque but not a church.

But does this mean that Jews consider the cult of islam holy? I have not heard this...

maelgwyn · « **Reply #7 on:** October 04, 2011, 01:56:49 AM »

Malachi was the last prophet FINITO!

Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks · « **Reply #8 on:** October 04, 2011, 01:39:33 PM »

I'm not really sure what the question is here. KWRBT answered it very well--these are stooge "rabbis" that work for the Israeli government and of course are going to do what it says:

Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on October 03, 2011, 08:22:03 PM

Its very simple. When a rabbi receives a salary from the state of israel, he will say what the israeli govt wants him to say. And when such a rabbi also happens to be a mamlachti drone who worships the state and has a galut mentality to boot, well you have quite the recipe there.

Did you misunderstand him or something?

Zelhar · « **Reply #9 on:** October 04, 2011, 01:56:31 PM »

The only halachic excuse in this case is for the sake of piece and to not provoke the gentiles we must show respect to their believes and holly sites. But I think when it comes to Islam this rational is null and void as they don't respect our holly sites and use their mosques directly in their jihad against Jews and all infidels.

Manch · « **Reply #10 on:** October 04, 2011, 02:01:10 PM »

doesn't bother me one bit. How one can "desecrate" something that is so repugnant?

muman613 · « **Reply #11 on:** October 04, 2011, 02:45:28 PM »

Quote from: 911Avenger on October 04, 2011, 01:39:33 PM

I'm not really sure what the question is here. KWRBT answered it very well--these are stooge "rabbis" that work for the Israeli government and of course are going to do what it says:

Did you misunderstand him or something?

I think you don't understand the question... But suffice to say a Rabbi always must have a Halachic reason for saying something like this. My question was not answered by KWRBT {although that may be the root cause of them saying this}. They have not, nor has KWRBT, provided an answer for the Halachic basis for any Rabbi to make such statements..

Just calling them names does not accomplish anything. These Rabbis are real Rabbis who have authority to decide Halacha...

Rabbi Druckman does have credentials which enable him to make these kinds of decisions... He studied at Merkaz HaRav under the holy Rabbi Kook.

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Early life

Born in Kuty in Poland (today in Ukraine), Drukman made aliyah to Mandate Palestine in 1944 after being saved from the Holocaust. He studied in the Aliyah Institute in Petah Tikva, continuing in the Bnei Akiva Yeshiva in Kfar Haroeh. He then transferred to the Mercaz HaRav yeshiva in Jerusalem where he became a student of Zvi Yehuda Kook. He also served in the Israel Defense Forces in the a Bnei Akiva gar'in in the Nahal. In 1952 he became a member of Bnei Akiva's National Directorate, and from 1955 until 1956 he served as an emissary of the organisation to the United States.

In 1964 he founded the Ohr Etzion B'nei Akiva Yeshiva Highschool, where he remains Rosh Yeshiva. In 1977 he established the Ohr Etzion Yeshiva, which for many years was the largest Hesder Yeshiva in the country, and in 1995 founded the Ohr MeOfir academy for highschool graduates of the Ethiopian community. Since 1996 he has also been the head of the Center for Bnei Akiva Yeshivot and ulpanot in Israel.

He played a leading role in the establishment of Gush Emunim.[1][2]

While it is true that when Rabbis go into politics they usually are tainted... I would like to know the source of the Rabbis 'excuse'...

Rubystars · « **Reply #12 on:** October 04, 2011, 04:15:59 PM »

Muman is it possible that they consider it to be that way because they believe that Muslims are worshipping the same G-d, albeit in a different and delusional way?

They might then therefore conclude that burning a mosque would be burning a place of worship of God?

muman613 · « **Reply #13 on:** October 04, 2011, 04:17:31 PM »

Quote from: Rubystars on October 04, 2011, 04:15:59 PM

Muman is it possible that they consider it to be that way because they believe that Muslims are worshipping the same G-d, albeit in a different and delusional way?

I do suspect that may be the root of the issue. But it would make it clearer if there was a halachic opinion published which says this... Many Rabbis discuss a Galut of Ishmael and I don't know how that concept fits in....

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http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/mashiach/11.htm

6) Edom is the perpetual enemy of Israel (see Sifre, Beha'alotecha, par. 69, cited by Rashi on Genesis 33:4; and see also Megilah 6a) and its final foe: the present galut is referred to as the galut of Edom (see Bereishit Rabba 44:17; Vayikra Rabba 13:5; and parallel passages) and Edom will be defeated ultimately by Mashiach (Obadiah; Yoma 10a; Midrash Tehilim 6:2; and cf. Tanchuma, Bo:4).

Interestingly enough, according to Pirkei deR. Eliezer ch. 28 (in non-censored versions), the Ishmaelites (Arabs) will be the final kingdom to be defeated by Mashiach. Other sources state "Edom and Ishmael" (see Torah Shelemah on Genesis 15:12, note 130). Note, however, Pirkei deR. Eliezer, ch. 44 (and cf. Midrash Tehilim 2:6 and 83:3) that Edom and Ishmael have become intermingled. See also Mayanei Hayeshu'ah, Mayan 11:8.

Daniel Michael ben Avraham · « **Reply #14 on:** October 04, 2011, 04:20:57 PM »

Statements like that are cowardice. The real response should have been something like, "what do you expect from people threatened by Islamonazi attacks?" Then he should have said, "do you think they should give you kisses and candy after you murder our children, mothers, and fathers?"

You reap what you sow. They desire death so much that I think the IDF should grant them their wish. Of course, the IDF is on the take as well.

cjd · « **Reply #15 on:** October 04, 2011, 05:43:36 PM »

Quote from: muman613 on October 03, 2011, 09:49:17 PM

The closest explanation I can find is in relation to the question about whether a Jew can enter a Church or a Mosque. Most of the responses indicate that the sages forbade a Jew from entering a Church because of concerns of Idolatry while a Jew can enter a mosque because supposedly the muslims worship 'the one true G-d'... While there is some disagreement between some of the sages, the majority opinion is that it is OK to enter a mosque but not a church.

But does this mean that Jews consider the cult of islam holy? I have not heard this...

Well at work today I was observing the muslims during their afternoon prayer ceremony... What I saw might not be Idolatry however it was the closest thing I ever saw to paganism... I don't know whats worse the foot washing and nose clearing in the washroom sink or laying face down on the old prayer rug [censored] and moaning... I don't know what common ground any normal Jew would find with all that.

Rubystars · « **Reply #16 on:** October 04, 2011, 05:57:09 PM »

Quote from: cjd on October 04, 2011, 05:43:36 PM

Well at work today I was observing the muslims during their afternoon prayer ceremony... What I saw might not be Idolatry however it was the closest thing I ever saw to paganism... I don't know whats worse the foot washing and nose clearing in the washroom sink or laying face down on the old prayer rug [censored] and moaning... I don't know what common ground any normal Jew would find with all that.

The star and crescent are pagan symbols and it's well known that the Muslim piligrimage pre-dates Islam and was a pagan thing beforehand.

muman613 · « **Reply #17 on:** October 04, 2011, 06:11:30 PM »

Quote from: cjd on October 04, 2011, 05:43:36 PM

Well at work today I was observing the muslims during their afternoon prayer ceremony... What I saw might not be Idolatry however it was the closest thing I ever saw to paganism... I don't know whats worse the foot washing and nose clearing in the washroom sink or laying face down on the old prayer rug [censored] and moaning... I don't know what common ground any normal Jew would find with all that.

Well, there is nothing exceptionally wrong with what you are saying {except for using a normal bathroom sink for the foot washing}...

According to Jewish faith we have the foot-washing ceremony which is done by the Kohain {and this was done over Rosh Hashanah}. But a special laver is used for this ritual... Also during the Rosh Hashanah services all Jews do bow all the way down to the ground {but not on prayer rugs}... Jewish custom is that when we bow we only bend the knee and bow, not fully to the ground, except for during the High Holidays when we fully bring ourselves down to the ground during the 'Aleinu' prayer...

http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/380255/jewish/Cleansing-the-Spiritual-Worlds.htm

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And Aaron and his sons shall wash their hands and their feet from it [the laver]. (Ex. 30:19)

This washing was out of reverence for Him Who is on high, for whoever approaches the King's table to serve, or to touch the portion of the King's food, and of the wine which he drinks, washes his hands, because "hands are busy" [touch unclean things automatically]. In addition He prescribed here the washing of feet because the priests performed the Service barefooted, and there are some people who have impurities and dirt on their feet.

http://www.aish.com/tp/b/app/48950111.html

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One of the first explicit associations between Jewish law and washing comes at the beginning of this week's Torah portion, which commands the construction of the kiyor. This was a large basin, with twelve faucets, set in the middle of the Temple courtyard. It was required that each Kohen (priest) wash his hands and feet before beginning their daily service. (They washed their feet because service in the Temple was always performed barefoot.)

Rabbeinu Bechaya explains the deeper significance behind this ritual. He notes that since the Temple was primarily a conduit to bring God's blessing into the world, the water flowing forth from the kiyor was symbolically linked to the blessing of rain falling down upon the land.

Nachmanides (12th century Spain) says this washing ceremony was a sign of respect. He explains that just as one would never stand before a king with an unclean appearance, so too the Kohanim were particularly careful to present themselves properly in the sanctuary - the palace of the King of Kings!

http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/eng/?id=4692

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Question:
Does the prohibition to fully prostrate oneself on a stone floor refer to one’s knees or one’s face (or both)? During Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur, I see some people taking paper towels or cloth and putting them beneath their knees and others to prevent their faces from touching the floor.

Answer:
We learn from the Gemara Megilla 22b, the Rambam (Hilchot Avoda Zara 6:7), Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim(131:8), that the main concern of Chazal in regard to "Even Maskit" (the prohibition of bowing on a stone floor outside the Bet Mikdash) is having one's face on a stone floor. Therefore, some poskim suggest that where there is nothing to place between oneself and the floor, one should turn his head to the side. Your question is truly in place at this time so people should not merely place small mats just to keep their knees clean. Gmar Chatima Tova and may we speedily return to the Bet Hamikdash.

http://www.yeshiva.org.il/midrash/shiur.asp?id=7504

Quote

"We actually mention this theme every day in Aleinu," continued the Rav. "But it figures even more significantly in the Musaf Sh’moneh Esrei of Rosh HaShanah. We coronate Hashem and emphasize how different we are from the nations of the earth."

"Is this why we ‘fall korim’ and kneel when reciting Aleinu on Rosh HaShanah unlike the rest of the year?" interjected Reb Hershel.

"Precisely," replied the Rav. "However, I want to point out that according to many poskim there is a difference in custom between ‘falling korim’ at Aleinu on Rosh HaShanah, and ‘falling korim’ on Yom Kippur as part of the ‘Seder Avodah’. When we ‘fall korim’ at Aleinu, we should place our knees on the floor and bow our heads, but not completely prostrate ourselves. Only on Yom Kippur do we prostrate ourselves completely and emulate what was done in the Beis HaMikdash. On Rosh HaShanah, it is sufficient to demonstrate our total subservience to Hashem by kneeling and bowing. Other poskim feel that both on Rosh HaShanah and Yom Kippur one should bow completely prostrate." (Each community should follow the psak of its Rav or its custom.)

Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks · « **Reply #18 on:** October 04, 2011, 07:04:13 PM »

I don't know why this is still an issue. KWRBT answered you. These aren't real rabbis, these are government-funded stooges who will say whatever they are paid to. Why are you trying to find some deep meaning to their words when it's been made plain that their basis and motivation is all financial? Has this forum not had this discussion before regarding the Shas party and its rabbinical rulings?

muman613 · « **Reply #19 on:** October 04, 2011, 07:41:21 PM »

Quote from: 911Avenger on October 04, 2011, 07:04:13 PM

I don't know why this is still an issue. KWRBT answered you. These aren't real rabbis, these are government-funded stooges who will say whatever they are paid to. Why are you trying to find some deep meaning to their words when it's been made plain that their basis and motivation is all financial? Has this forum not had this discussion before regarding the Shas party and its rabbinical rulings?

Not quite... Rabbi Druckman is a 'Real Rabbi'... As I posted above he learned with Rabbi Kook who is still considered a great sage of our generation... You cannot simply write off all Rabbis who you disagree with by saying that they are government funded stooges.

I would love to disregard what they say but several of these Rabbis do hold a lot of say in issues of Halacha...

Kahane-Was-Right BT · « **Reply #20 on:** October 05, 2011, 10:48:38 PM »

Quote from: muman613 on October 04, 2011, 07:41:21 PM

Not quite... Rabbi Druckman is a 'Real Rabbi'... As I posted above he learned with Rabbi Kook who is still considered a great sage of our generation... You cannot simply write off all Rabbis who you disagree with by saying that they are government funded stooges.

I would love to disregard what they say but several of these Rabbis do hold a lot of say in issues of Halacha...

A "real rabbi" who helped carry out the expulsion of Gaza. 'Nuff said.