Jewish honor

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

In the Bar Kochva revolt, we slaughtered two thirds of the Roman army. Almost crushed the Roman empire, which was the America of that time. The sole reason we lost and that the redemption didn't come is because our leader, Bar Kochva, was an arrogant moron who asked G-d not to interfere and who murdered a Jew whom he suspected as a traitor just like that, in the town of Beitar which was later eliminated by Rome. But still - what a piece of Jewish honorable history

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

"In the Bar Kochva revolt, we slaughtered two thirds of the Roman army"

 Woow, didn't know that, did know we killed many romans (yimah shemam), but 2/3rds is great. but your second point- "the sole reason" is not entirely true. It is one of the reasons given, but their are also many others. If it was the "sole reason" G-D would have just eliminated him (as happened) and then given us victory, but as we saw that didn't happen.

[Dr. Dan]

Rabbi akiva was much more a hero in my eyes.  King David even more

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

Rome was our slut

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Another reason was because their weren't enough Jews who came back and fought against rome. This is why we find Reish Lakish telling Rav Bar Bar Channa (I believe thats his name) "I hate you people" when the later came from Babylon and extended his hand to Reish Lakish who was by the Yardan (Jordan river). Even though this was generations later. Also many other examples where Jews in Israel making fun and looking down upon those who didn't come back. Like a Rabbi (from Babylon) going to a butcher and asking how much for something- the butcher saying an amount and a hit on the head. The Rabbi asks another Rabbi (from Israel) whats going on and he is told this is how we treat you people (or something like that).

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Rabbi akiva was much more a hero in my eyes.  King David even more

 Yepp, also check http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-audio-shiurim/35-hagim/304-sephirath-haomer-how-did-the-talmidhim-of-rabbi-aqiva-die
If it strikes you as unreasonable that 24,000 Tora scholars should have died in a plague because they did not treat each respectfully, then this shiur is for you. What's more, you are in good company: Rav Sharira Gaon, based on the authentic Talmudic text before him 1100 years ago, presents the matter very differently.

- Perhaps something you haven't heard before (maybe have here on this form). Certainly not something the average Jew (that is one who is even Torah observant) hears today.

[muman613]

Rabbi Akiva was a true Tzadik and a man who made the most of his life. His humble beginnings belie his final dedication to Hashems Torah.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

In the Bar Kochva revolt, we slaughtered two thirds of the Roman army. Almost crushed the Roman empire, which was the America of that time. The sole reason we lost and that the redemption didn't come is because our leader, Bar Kochva, was an arrogant moron who asked G-d not to interfere and who murdered a Jew whom he suspected as a traitor just like that, in the town of Beitar which was later eliminated by Rome. But still - what a piece of Jewish honorable history

Lol.

[t_h_j]

In the Bar Kochva revolt, we slaughtered two thirds of the Roman army. Almost crushed the Roman empire, which was the America of that time. The sole reason we lost and that the redemption didn't come is because our leader, Bar Kochva, was an arrogant moron who asked G-d not to interfere and who murdered a Jew whom he suspected as a traitor just like that, in the town of Beitar which was later eliminated by Rome. But still - what a piece of Jewish honorable history

really?

[mord]

 




http://www.livius.org/ja-jn/jewish_wars/jwar07.html  





Slowly but surely, the Romans gained the upper hand. Simon made his last stand at Betar, three hours southwest of Jerusalem. The defenders are recorded to have caught the missiles from the Roman catapults and hurled them back. The siege lasted a long time, until the winter of 135/136 (Simon was still able to send letters on 6 November 135). The rebels never surrendered, but died from famine and thirst. Among the dead bodies, the legionaries recognized that of Simon, the son of Kosiba. When they brought his head to the emperor Hadrian, he said: 'If his G-d had not slain him, who could have overcome him?'   


Many Romans perished in the war. Therefore, Hadrian, in writing to the Senate did not employ the opening phrase commonly affected by the emperors: 'If you and your children are in health, it is well; I and the army are in health.'
[Cassius Dio, Roman history 69.14.3]

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

As I mentioned before their are many reasons why the romans (Yimah shemam) defeating Jews. Here is another example why given by the Rambam (Perhaps to teach us how to not repeat the same mistakes again)-

This is what abolished our kingdom, destroyed our Beit HaMikdash, prolonged our exile, and brought us to our present predicament. Our fathers sinned and are no more.

For they found many astrology books, followed them, and went astray. They imagined that these wisdoms were glorious and greatly beneficial, and they did not study warfare and land conquest. Instead, they imagined that these wisdoms would help them. Therefore, the prophets called them fools; and they certainly were fools, for they followed vanities which cannot avail nor rescue, for they are vain.   (Iggrot U'Teshuvot LeRambam, Iggrot Shonot, p. 21. 204)

The Rambam writes as follows: (Rambam, Laws of Kings and Their Wars, 7:15) "A man should not think at the time of war of his wife, nor of his children, nor of his possessions, but he must free his heart of everything and set himself to the battle. And more - he should think that the entire existence of Israel depends on him. And if he is afraid and turns back, it is as if he spilled the blood of his comrades. And regarding this, it is written: 'Not to melt his brother's heart like his heart'... For everyone who fights with all of his heart, and with the intention to sanctify the Name of Hashem, is promised that he will not be harmed... and he will merit the life of the World To Come." (Rambam, Laws of Kings and Their Wars, 7:15)

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

As I mentioned before their are many reasons why the romans (Yimah shemam) defeating Jews. Here is another example why given by the Rambam (Perhaps to teach us how to not repeat the same mistakes again)-

This is what abolished our kingdom, destroyed our Beit HaMikdash, prolonged our exile, and brought us to our present predicament. Our fathers sinned and are no more.

For they found many astrology books, followed them, and went astray. They imagined that these wisdoms were glorious and greatly beneficial, and they did not study warfare and land conquest. Instead, they imagined that these wisdoms would help them. Therefore, the prophets called them fools; and they certainly were fools, for they followed vanities which cannot avail nor rescue, for they are vain.   (Iggrot U'Teshuvot LeRambam, Iggrot Shonot, p. 21. 204)

The Rambam writes as follows: (Rambam, Laws of Kings and Their Wars, 7:15) "A man should not think at the time of war of his wife, nor of his children, nor of his possessions, but he must free his heart of everything and set himself to the battle. And more - he should think that the entire existence of Israel depends on him. And if he is afraid and turns back, it is as if he spilled the blood of his comrades. And regarding this, it is written: 'Not to melt his brother's heart like his heart'... For everyone who fights with all of his heart, and with the intention to sanctify the Name of Hashem, is promised that he will not be harmed... and he will merit the life of the World To Come." (Rambam, Laws of Kings and Their Wars, 7:15)

As always the Rambam was right on point, but we see this same huge problem does exist today and too few people learn Rambam.

[Manch]

In the Bar Kochva revolt, we slaughtered two thirds of the Roman army. Almost crushed the Roman empire, which was the America of that time. The sole reason we lost and that the redemption didn't come is because our leader, Bar Kochva, was an arrogant moron who asked G-d not to interfere and who murdered a Jew whom he suspected as a traitor just like that, in the town of Beitar which was later eliminated by Rome. But still - what a piece of Jewish honorable history

It is you who is a moron to call one of Jewish greatest heroes a moron. Roman's losses were extremely heavy in the beginning of the revolt, but are you saying that Jews slaughtered 2/3 of the entire Roman army?!! 

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

It is you who is a moron to call one of Jewish greatest heroes a moron. Roman's losses were extremely heavy in the beginning of the revolt, but are you saying that Jews slaughtered 2/3 of the entire Roman army?!! 

 Actually he is right (partially). Bar Kochba was a great warrior, but he got too full of himself (too much pride) which brought about his downfall).

[muman613]

Here are some interesting tidbits of information on the topic of the Bar Kochba Revolt:


http://www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/48944706.html

Why Did the Jews Lose?

Apparently the Jews came very close to winning the war. Indeed, they did win for a time. Why did they lose in the end? The sages say they lost because they were too arrogant. Having tasted victory they adopted the attitude of , "by my strength and my valor I did this." (Deut. 8:17)

Bar Kochba too became arrogant. He saw himself winning. He heard people calling him the Messiah. Certainly, if Rabbi Akiva thought so, then he had the potential to be Israel's Ultimate Leader. He also became corrupted by his power and even beat his uncle, the great Rabbi Elazar HaModai, to death, having accepted false accusations that he was a Roman spy (3). Because of these faults he began to lose battles and was forced into retreat and guerrilla warfare.

In Judaism we are taught that while people must make the effort, it is G-d that wins the wars. It is not human strength nor human might that's doing it.

The Fall of Betar

Bar Kochba made his final stand in the city of Betar, which is to the southwest of Jerusalem. You can go visit it today, thought ancient Betar has not been excavated. The Talmud (in Gittin 57a) relates what happened in Betar:

They had the custom in Betar that when a baby boy was born they planted a cedar tree and for a baby girl they planted a pine tree, and when they would marry they would cut them down and make a marriage canopy of the branches. One day the daughter of Caesar was passing and the shaft of her litter broke. They cut down a cedar and brought it to her. The Jews of Betar fell upon them and beat them. They reported to Caesar that the Jews were rebelling and marched against them... they killed [Jewish] men, women and children until their blood flowed into the Mediterranean Sea... It was taught that for seven years the gentiles cultivated their vineyards with the blood of Israel without requiring manure for fertilization.

The city fell on the saddest day in the Jewish calendar ― the 9th of Av of the year 135, the same date as both the First and the Second Temple fell.

The Romans, in their fury, did not want to allow the Jewish bodies to be buried; they wanted to leave them out in the open to rot. According to tradition, the bodies lay in the open for months but did not rot. Today, when Jews say the Grace after Meals, Birkat HaMazon, they add a special blessing (ha tov u'mativ) as a way of thanking G-d for this act of mercy in Betar.

Exhausted, the Romans have had enough of the Jews who had caused them more manpower and material losses than any other people in the history of Empire. At the end of the Bar Kochba revolt, Hadrian decided that the way not to have another one is to cut off the Jews from connection to their beloved land.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/144572/jewish/The-Fall-of-Betar.htm

Betar was destroyed. For they [the residents of Betar] had a custom: When a boy was born they would plant a cedar tree, and when a girl was born, they would plant an acacia. At the time of a marriage, the trees were cut down and the wood was used to make the bridal canopy.

One day Caesar's daughter was passing by and the spoke of her chariot broke. Her attendants cut down a cedar and took it to fix the chariot. The residents of Betar came and attacked them, and the attendants went and told Caesar: "The Jews are rebelling against you." The Romans attacked them [and destroyed the city].

R. Yochanan taught: There were eighty thousand Roman soldiers who beseiged Betar. [The city was defended by] Bar Koziva who had two hundred thousand soldiers with severed fingers [for the test of admission into Bar Koziva's army called for one to cut off his own finger to show his bravery].

The Sages asked him: "How long will you continue to make cripples of Israel?" He replied: "How else shall I test them?" They answered: "Anyone who is incapable of uprooting a cedar of Lebanon while riding by on his horse should not be counted among your troops."

He [Bar Koziva] had two hundred thousand like this [capable of uprooting a cedar] and two hundred thousand like that [who had severed their own fingers]. Hadrian sent armies against them but they came out [of Betar] and slaughtered Hadrian's forces.

Once, when Bar Koziva's forces were going out to battle, an elderly man came and said: "May your G-d give you assistance." They misspoke and replied: "Let Him not assist us nor hinder us! (Psalms 60:12): Is it not so, G-d, that You have abandoned us, and will not accompany our armies!"

What was an example of Bar Koziva's great strength? He would block the catapult stones with his knee and hurl them back, killing many soldiers.

When R. Akiva saw him, he declared: "A star has come forth from Ya'akov (Numbers 24:17) - Bar Koziva has come forth from Ya'akov, he is the Mashiach!" R. Yochanan ben Tursa told him: "Akiva! Grass will grow on your cheeks and the son of David will not have arrived [i.e., Bar Koziva is not the Mashiach]!"

For three-and-a-half years Hadrian Caesar besieged Betar. R. Elazar ha-Moda'i was there and wore sackcloth and fasted, praying: "Master of the World! Do not sit in judgment today."

Hadrian decided to return [i.e., to end his unsuccessful siege of Betar], when a Cuthite [from the arch enemies of the Jews] came to him and said: "Master! As long as this rooster [R. Elazar ha-Moda'i who prayed repeatedly] sits there in ashes, you will be unable to conquer it. Wait for me and I shall enable you to capture it today."

He [the Cuthite] went into Betar through the main gate and found R. Elazar who was busy praying. He made believe that he was whispering in his ear. The people reported this to Bar Koziva, telling him: "Your uncle, R. Elazar, seeks to deliver the country into the hands of Hadrian."

Bar Koziva sent a messenger to bring the Cuthite before him. "What did you say to R. Elazar and what did he answer?"

The Cuthite replied: "If I tell you, the king [Hadrian] will kill me and if I don't tell you, then you will kill me. Better that I allow myself to be killed than to reveal the secrets of the king."

Bar Koziva assumed that R. Elazar sought to deliver the country [into the hands of Hadrian). Bar Koziva sent messengers to bring R. Elazar to him, and asked him: "What did the Cuthite say to you?"

R. Elazar replied: "I don't know what he whispered, for I was in the middle of my prayers and heard nothing."

"And what did you say to him?"

"I said nothing."

Bar Koziva became very angry and kicked him, causing him to die. A voice was then heard from Heaven, saying: Woe to the shepherd of the idol, who has abandoned the flock, a sword on his forearm and on his right eye (Zecharyah 11:17). You have broken the forearm of Israel and blinded her right eye. Therefore the forearm of that man [Bar Koziva] shall wither and his right eye shall be struck. The Jews' own sins thus brought it about that Betar was captured and Bar Koziva was put to death.

His head was brought to Hadrian, who asked: "Who killed him?" A Cuthite came forward and said: "I did." Hadrian told him: "Go and bring his body." He went and brought it and they found a snake curled around his neck. Hadrian declared: "Had his G-d not killed him, who would have been able to do so?"

Eighty thousand Romans entered Betar and slaughtered the men, women, and children until blood flowed from the doorways and sewers. Horses sank up until their nostrils and the rivers of blood lifted up rocks weighing forty se'ah and flowed into the sea where its stain was noticeable for a distance of four mil.

Hadrian had a large vineyard, eighteen mil [approximately 11.5 miles] by eighteen mil - the distance between Tiberias and Tzippori and he surrounded it with a wall made from the bodies of those slain in Betar. He also ordered that they not be brought to burial.

The Sages taught: for seven years the gentiles harvested their vineyards without having to fertilize them because of the blood of Israel.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

All that said, it's always easy to play Monday morning quarterback when we already know the results.

[Manch]

All that said, it's always easy to play Monday morning quarterback when we already know the results.

Exactly! How else would rabbis explain Bar Kochba defeat? Bar Kochba fought and died to the sanctification of G-d's name, for freedom of Israel. He is a forever hero of Jewish people.

[muman613]

Exactly! How else would rabbis explain Bar Kochba defeat? Bar Kochba fought and died to the sanctification of G-d's name, for freedom of Israel. He is a forever hero of Jewish people

Regardless he is the prime example of a failed messiah. Thus we never proclaim someone moshiach unless they complete their mission.

When men falsely believe that the strength comes from their own hand, rather than give credit to the source of all power then your action is no longer lshem shamayim for heavens sake.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

It is you who is a moron to call one of Jewish greatest heroes a moron.

So an arrogant murderer is your hero?

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

Lol.

What's funny?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

What's funny?

You have a way with words.

[Manch]

So an arrogant murderer is your hero?

I think that Rabbi Kahane, if he lived at the time, would be in the army of a great Jewish martyr, Bar Kochba! It would have been an honor to serve under his command. He is my hero. His name is forever in the annals of glorious Jewish military history.

[muman613]

I think that Rabbi Kahane, if he lived at the time, would be in the army of a great Jewish martyr, Bar Kochba! It would have been an honor to serve under his command. He is my hero. His name is forever in the annals of glorious Jewish military history.

I understand your feeling but Bar Kochba was almost the Moshiach, and that is what we are supposed to learn... But he failed and he was not able to bring about the redemption. His failure lead to the final destruction of the Jewish people. I have never really heard any Jewish sources call him a hero though.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I think that Rabbi Kahane, if he lived at the time, would be in the army of a great Jewish martyr, Bar Kochba! It would have been an honor to serve under his command. He is my hero. His name is forever in the annals of glorious Jewish military history.

 We may never know. As far as I know (little on this subject, soo I might be mistaken on this, people should double check), Bar Kochba was supported at first by Rabbis in general. Then they "Killed it", some think it means they killed him- but really its - it meaning the idea that he is the Messiah after he failed to properly lead the army. People (Rabbis, important people, etc.) who supported him then didn't after they saw what he was doing and that he wasn't doing some things properly (for example killing a Tzaddik Rabbi Eliezer, his uncle, and other wrong things like acting arrogantly).
 BUT definitely their was a lot of resistance on the part of Jews especially in Beitar, Jerusalem and other places.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I think that Rabbi Kahane, if he lived at the time, would be in the army of a great Jewish martyr, Bar Kochba! It would have been an honor to serve under his command. He is my hero. His name is forever in the annals of glorious Jewish military history.

Um, ok, but the great Rabbi Akiva and his many talmudic students were shieldbearers of Bar Kochva and did fight in his army in addition to thinking he was messiah.  That doesn't mean he did not have flaws, and it also doesn't mean those flaws couldn't have played a role in the ultimate Jewish defeat.    So while I would temper the monday morning qb'ing, it also doesn't make sense to pretend that everything about it was great.