Author Topic: Who would you want to be PM of Israel  (Read 3533 times)

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Offline Chaimfan99

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Who would you want to be PM of Israel
« on: November 03, 2011, 03:13:02 PM »
Ofcourse #1 would be Chaim, if the Israeli people demanded he be let back into Israel.
The other leader i like is Arieh Eldad. 

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Who would you want to be PM of Israel
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2011, 04:45:54 PM »
Israel's actually supposed to have a King, not a Prime Minister, right?

Offline muman613

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Re: Who would you want to be PM of Israel
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2011, 04:48:26 PM »
Israel's actually supposed to have a King, not a Prime Minister, right?

When Moshiach arrives we will live under him as a King... The Torah mostly relates that we should live according to Torah law with a Court called the Sanhedrin... But because we would like to be judged similarly to the nations Hashem allows us to appoint a King...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Debbie Shafer

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Re: Who would you want to be PM of Israel
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2011, 04:52:19 PM »
I would vote for Chaim...Not sure what the choices would be by then...What about Avigdore Lieberman..Any thoughts?

Offline muman613

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Re: Who would you want to be PM of Israel
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2011, 04:58:24 PM »
I would vote for Chaim...Not sure what the choices would be by then...What about Avigdore Lieberman..Any thoughts?

I am not against Lieberman but around JTF he does not have enought 'street cred' or whatever you want to call it. He is a politician who often acts as a politician instead of being concerned with the big picture for the Jewish people. Of all the current crop of politicians I think he has the best shot at being 'right-wing'... But surely he pales in comparison to a true Kahanist.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline WestCoastJTF

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Re: Who would you want to be PM of Israel
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2011, 05:37:16 PM »
Chaim! 

Who else?!?!?   ;D

Offline Manch

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Re: Who would you want to be PM of Israel
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2011, 06:31:38 PM »
Today - Chaim! No questions about it.
As a political giant from the past - HaRav Kahane!
I wouldn't mind a Bar Kochba type of hero as well!
Hayot Araviot Masrihot

Offline muman613

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Re: Who would you want to be PM of Israel
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2011, 06:46:22 PM »
Today - Chaim! No questions about it.
As a political giant from the past - HaRav Kahane!
I wouldn't mind a Bar Kochba type of hero as well!

I would hope if Bar Kochba 'comes back' he would achieve the redemption rather than disappoint the entire nation {who believe he was Moshiach}.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline cjd

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Re: Who would you want to be PM of Israel
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2011, 07:03:05 PM »
Chaim! 

Who else?!?!?   ;D
No one else... Chaim is the only man for the job  :dance: It would give the Rav's dreams for Israels future a new chance at success.
He who overlooks one crime invites the commission of another.        Syrus.

A light on to the nations for 60 years


Offline muman613

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Re: Who would you want to be PM of Israel
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2011, 07:04:36 PM »
Manch,

Chaim has explained this several times over the last couple of weeks. It is not too hard to understand why Bar Kochba let down the entire Jewish people because of his arrogant ways. The Talmud and the Sages clearly say that it is because of Bar Kochba's behavior that the Jewish people were not redeemed...



Quote
http://www.jewishmag.com/77mag/barkokhba/barkokhba.htm

During the time of the rebellion, bar Kokhba was referred to as the Nasi, the leader or prince of the Jewish people. The Messianic hopes that the Jews possessed during those times were centered around him. Because of this he was called bar Kokhba, the son of a star.

No less than the great sage, Rabbi Akiva, called bar Kokhba the messiah as related in the Talmud Jerusalmi, tractate Tannit, "When Rabbi Akiva saw bar Kokhba, he said, 'this is the king Messiah'. Rabbi Yochanan was not so impressed and replied to Rabbi Akiva, "grass will grow from your cheeks and yet the son of David (the king messiah) will not have come." The Rambam explains that the sages of that generation were convinced that bar Kokhba was the Messiah. However since due to his sins he was killed, the sages realized he was not the Messiah. (Rambam, Malachim, 11:3) Because of this, he is not referred to in the Talmud as bar Kokhba, but as bar Koseba, the son of deceit, since he was not the Messiah. Instead of redemption, he brought upon them greater destruction.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Who would you want to be PM of Israel
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2011, 08:41:40 PM »
When Moshiach arrives we will live under him as a King... The Torah mostly relates that we should live according to Torah law with a Court called the Sanhedrin... But because we would like to be judged similarly to the nations Hashem allows us to appoint a King...



 Why do you think he will just arrive? (as if falling from the sky or something). Perhaps he will be elected, or better yett nominated. And perhaps the Sanhedrin needs to be formed before a Moshiah is even made because someone needs to anoint him. Either the Sanhedrin or a prophet.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Who would you want to be PM of Israel
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2011, 08:46:10 PM »
Why do you think he will just arrive? (as if falling from the sky or something). Perhaps he will be elected, or better yett nominated. And perhaps the Sanhedrin needs to be formed before a Moshiah is even made because someone needs to anoint him. Either the Sanhedrin or a prophet.

I did not state 'how Moshiach will arrive'... I am stating that once he has been revealed as Moshiach he will be King. As always the exact sequence of events is open to interpretation. I have never been on the belief that he will 'fall from the sky' or other such fantasy. Obviously Moshiach will have to accomplish the mission of the redeemer in order to be called as such...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Who would you want to be PM of Israel
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2011, 08:50:41 PM »
I like eldad.  Chaim ben pesach is choice # 1.   No phony peaceniks like lieberman!

Offline USAReturn2GodNow1776

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Re: Who would you want to be PM of Israel
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2011, 09:24:54 PM »
Chaim, Noam Federman, anybody who caries on the ideals of HaRav Meir David Kahane (ZTzL, HYD)!

Offline Manch

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Re: Who would you want to be PM of Israel
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2011, 10:23:17 PM »
Manch,

Chaim has explained this several times over the last couple of weeks. It is not too hard to understand why Bar Kochba let down the entire Jewish people because of his arrogant ways. The Talmud and the Sages clearly say that it is because of Bar Kochba's behavior that the Jewish people were not redeemed...


I completely disagree with you and with Chaim on the great Jewish Hero and martyr, Bar Kochba!
Hayot Araviot Masrihot

Offline muman613

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Re: Who would you want to be PM of Israel
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2011, 12:38:19 PM »
I completely disagree with you and with Chaim on the great Jewish Hero and martyr, Bar Kochba!

Then you disagree with the Talmud and the Rabbis placing yourself in the category of an apikoris...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Secularbeliever

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Re: Who would you want to be PM of Israel
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2011, 01:01:37 PM »
I like Aryeh Eldad.  I would love to see Chaim as UN Ambassador.  For the future I would like to see how this kid Daniel Pereg develops.  He is the kid in LA who carried the Israeli flag through the Hamas rally.  He has since moved to Israel and says he wants to be a Knesset member.
We all need to pray for Barack Obama, may the Lord provide him a safe move back to Chicago in January 2,013.

Offline Manch

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Re: Who would you want to be PM of Israel
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2011, 03:34:43 PM »
Then you disagree with the Talmud and the Rabbis placing yourself in the category of an apikoris...
Yes, you are right. I 100% disagree with that, if that is what Talmud is saying. Rabbis who wrote it were not completely unbiased on the matter, were they? And the scapegoat for the disaster was conveniently found. Why couldn't rabbi unite the whole Jewish nation behind the revolt? Where they or the whole Jewish people completely blameless. More importantly, was HaRav Akiva, ZT"L ever critical of Simeon Bar Kochba, ZT"L
Hayot Araviot Masrihot

Offline muman613

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Re: Who would you want to be PM of Israel
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2011, 03:53:58 PM »
Yes, you are right. I 100% disagree with that, if that is what Talmud is saying. Rabbis who wrote it were not completely unbiased on the matter, were they? And the scapegoat for the disaster was conveniently found. Why couldn't rabbi unite the whole Jewish nation behind the revolt? Where they or the whole Jewish people completely blameless. More importantly, was HaRav Akiva, ZT"L ever critical of Simeon Bar Kochba, ZT"L

When it was obvious that Bar Kochba was not the Moshiach he admitted his mistake, as anyone who makes such pronouncements must do. So you are an admitted Apikoris? You realize that a Jew who renounces the Talmud, the oral Torah, has no place in the world to come? Your claiming 'bias' in the Rabbis of the Talmud sounds like an attack on the entire Oral tradition...


Torah Jews accept the Talmud just as much as they accept the Chumash... It is said that at Sinai both the Oral and the Written Torah were given...



You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Who would you want to be PM of Israel
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2011, 10:02:41 PM »
Then you disagree with the Talmud and the Rabbis placing yourself in the category of an apikoris...

Uhh not really.

There are very specific notions which one must reject in order to fit the bill of apikorus.  Disagreeing with the Talmud in subjective opinion on a jewish historical figure is not even close to one of those things, even if it is mistaken.  Please try to keep the sensationalisn in check, since we're among friends here.

Offline muman613

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Re: Who would you want to be PM of Israel
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2011, 10:48:27 PM »
Uhh not really.

There are very specific notions which one must reject in order to fit the bill of apikorus.  Disagreeing with the Talmud in subjective opinion on a jewish historical figure is not even close to one of those things, even if it is mistaken.  Please try to keep the sensationalisn in check, since we're among friends here.

What I mean to say is that in believing that Bar Kochbah had what was necessary to be the Moshiach, in order to lead the Jewish people in a military battle against the mighty powers which rise to destroy us, it does not benefit our future.

While I do admit that Bar Kochba was a mighty warrior, and he was righteous and a great leader of men. I do not say anything against him. But when the Rabbis of the Talmud give their opinions, it is not for political purposes, nor is it to be concerned with what the nations think. There are many parts of the Talmud which the gentiles have problems with just because the Rabbis were attempting to be very clear in their thought process. I do not believe that the Rabbis of the Talmud were being 'Politically Correct' but during persecutions of the middle ages some parts of the Talmud were edited and redacted in order not to upset the gentiles.

The Talmud attempts to give the Jewish people the wisdom needed to judge events in our own time. This, I believe, is one of the reasons it is so essential for Jews to study the Talmud. The lesson which is learned from the Talmud should be taken to heart and learned from.

I have no problem really with considering Bar Kochba a hero, in a way... We should hope that Moshiach will come with the mighty strength of Bar Kochba and the wisdom of David HaMelech and Shlomo HaMelech.

PS: Concerning the appellation 'apikoros' there are varying opinions... I found this definition..

http://www.chayas.com/punish.htm#pun

Quote
Three Individuals are described as Apicursim:

* one who denies the existence of prophecy and maintains that there is no knowledge communicated from G-D to the hearts of men

*one who disputes the prophecy of Moses, our teacher

*one who maintains that the Creator is not aware of the deeds of men.

Each of these three individuals is an Apicurus

There are three individuals who are considered as "one who denies the Torah":

* one who says Torah, even on verse or one word, is not from G-D. If he says: "Moses made these statements independently," he is denying the Torah.

* one who denies the Torah's interpretation, the oral law, or disputes [the authority of] its spokesman as did Tzadok and Beitus

* one who says that though the Torah came from G-D, the Creator has replaced one mitzvah with another one and nullified the Torah, for example, the Arabs...

Each of these individuals is considered as one who "denies the Torah."
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 10:54:25 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Who would you want to be PM of Israel
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2011, 11:51:59 PM »
Yes, you are right. I 100% disagree with that, if that is what Talmud is saying. Rabbis who wrote it were not completely unbiased on the matter, were they? And the scapegoat for the disaster was conveniently found. Why couldn't rabbi unite the whole Jewish nation behind the revolt? Where they or the whole Jewish people completely blameless. More importantly, was HaRav Akiva, ZT"L ever critical of Simeon Bar Kochba, ZT"L

 They did support the revolt (at first at least). And many died. They saw that this strategy was not working. At that time- if the nation was going to continue in its ways everything was going to get destroyed. Among other things as well as what they saw) they then "killed it" after seeing the disaster of the decisions being made.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Who would you want to be PM of Israel
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2011, 01:47:49 AM »
What I mean to say is that in believing that Bar Kochbah had what was necessary to be the Moshiach, in order to lead the Jewish people in a military battle against the mighty powers which rise to destroy us, it does not benefit our future.

Had what was necessary?   What do you mean by that phrase?   He had an army and weapons.  What else is needed to lead the Jewish people in a military battle "against the mighty powers which rise to destroy us?"  He was a prime candidate to lead an army, since he was a great general and pious Jew.   Rabbi Akiva saw it in him that he had the greatness necessary.   Unfortunately things took a bad turn and his character flaws (pointed out by the Talmud) may have exacerbated the shift of momentum toward our enemies to our destruction.    I don't dispute this, and neither should any wise person dispute it.     But I really don't get what you are driving at, muman, with what I quoted you saying here.


Quote
While I do admit that Bar Kochba was a mighty warrior, and he was righteous and a great leader of men. I do not say anything against him. But when the Rabbis of the Talmud give their opinions, it is not for political purposes, nor is it to be concerned with what the nations think. There are many parts of the Talmud which the gentiles have problems with just because the Rabbis were attempting to be very clear in their thought process. I do not believe that the Rabbis of the Talmud were being 'Politically Correct' but during persecutions of the middle ages some parts of the Talmud were edited and redacted in order not to upset the gentiles.   

I never claimed they were being politically correct.  So this is a non-issue.


Quote
PS: Concerning the appellation 'apikoros' there are varying opinions... I found this definition..

http://www.chayas.com/punish.htm#pun


Yes, and just as I said, while Manch may be mistaken, what he said does not fit any of these definitions!

Offline muman613

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Re: Who would you want to be PM of Israel
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2011, 01:11:03 AM »
Had what was necessary?   What do you mean by that phrase?   He had an army and weapons.  What else is needed to lead the Jewish people in a military battle "against the mighty powers which rise to destroy us?"  He was a prime candidate to lead an army, since he was a great general and pious Jew.   Rabbi Akiva saw it in him that he had the greatness necessary.   Unfortunately things took a bad turn and his character flaws (pointed out by the Talmud) may have exacerbated the shift of momentum toward our enemies to our destruction.    I don't dispute this, and neither should any wise person dispute it.     But I really don't get what you are driving at, muman, with what I quoted you saying here.


I never claimed they were being politically correct.  So this is a non-issue.


Yes, and just as I said, while Manch may be mistaken, what he said does not fit any of these definitions!

KWRBT,

I originally commented on a comment which Manch made in response to my explaining why the sages said what they said about Bar Kochba Manch wrote this:

Yes, you are right. I 100% disagree with that, if that is what Talmud is saying. Rabbis who wrote it were not completely unbiased on the matter, were they? And the scapegoat for the disaster was conveniently found. Why couldn't rabbi unite the whole Jewish nation behind the revolt? Where they or the whole Jewish people completely blameless. More importantly, was HaRav Akiva, ZT"L ever critical of Simeon Bar Kochba, ZT"L

By disparaging the Rabbis of the Talmud and implying that they had ulterior motives for writing what they did about Bar Kochba I interpreted it as disrespecting the Sages and the Talmud, and by extension the entire Oral Law... And as that quote I brought above points out, a person who denies the Oral Law, and the interpretations of the Talmudic sages, they are 'deniers of Torah'. I was wrong to use the term 'apikoris' but both are not such good things. I don't seriously consider Manch in that category, but what he wrote rubbed me to say that.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Who would you want to be PM of Israel
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2011, 01:36:18 AM »
Let me spell it out.  Disagreeing with the Talmud's opinion about Bar Kochva is not "denying oral law."   First of all, there were many sages who were involved in the hundreds of years of redaction process behind the finished product of Talmud, and there was not one single opinion on most things.   Certainly at the time of the revolt itself, the rabbis were not against it.    Certainly, after the results, in dealing with the aftermath and destruction of Jewish life on a scale (by percentage) greater even than the holocaust, the rabbis had reason to be against it.   Manch calls that a "bias" - maybe that's not the friendliest term to use, but it's probably accurate.   Of course there was a bias to not have another revolt which would result in a million murdered Jews and especially at a time when Jews were incapable of victory and would be slaughtered.   So the Talmud redactors had good reason to downplay the revolt.   So too, the sages in the generations of bar kochva and shortly after him, had reason to point out his flaws given how it turned into a disaster where so many loved ones were lost and innocent men women and children destroyed.     Are you going to react to that positively?  No one in their right mind would.

Secondly, what that site is referring to is disputing the interpretations of Jewish law similar to the way the Baltusians and Tzaddokim did (aka Sadducees).   An example would be claiming that tefillin don't go on the head - something all the sages agreed on was an oral law from sinai.   Or if somebody came along and tried to say the beautiful fruit is not an esrog.  Something along those lines.  That person would be an apikorus.   Not a person who differs in opinion about a Jewish historical figure!   (even if they are mistaken).  That simply does not fit the bill of "denying the Oral Law."    Jews are allowed to have opinions about things.   And even sometimes personally disagree with rabbis, yes, *gasp!

You need to be careful about slinging insults around.