Hebron massacre

[Dr. Dan]

Actually, hatred of Arabs is pretty popular in Israel. But let's pretend it wasn't. Most of our principles are not popular. None of them can make us popular. So what are you suggesting? to sit idly and let Jews rot in their insanity or have some balls and try to convince them to change, to save them?

To demonstrate Jewish pride.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

And I will says again and again...our enemies..the enemies of the Jewish people deserve the very thing they wish to do to us.  Do you think I would shed a tear for my enemy's people if a mob of Jews or gentiles did something to our enemies?

 No, I wasn't implying anything, just answering your questions.

[Yaakov Mendel]

The proof is that they chose to participate in the Islamic desecration of the holly Jewish site. Do you think any one of these people thought about giving up the site so it would return to its rightful owner ? Do you think any one of them prayed for truthful peace and justice even as he kneeled to pray to allah on a Jewish holly site which was violently converted into an Islamic mosque ?

Occupation of a place that does not belong to you should be punished by expulsion, not by death. That's what Rabbi Kahane wanted : to expel the Arabs from Israel, not to massacre them.

[Dr. Dan]

No, I wasn't implying anything, just answering your questions.

And I think I have answered yours and Ron's questions.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I don't think your comparison is valid. In a war, every armed soldier is a threat. Unarmed civilians praying in a mosque cannot be assumed to be an immediate threat justifying lethal force.

 Who says a threat has to be immediate? In this case what if enemy soldiers were sleeping in tents or something and you got a chance to go inside. If you know you cant capture them would you not kill them? (Bomb, gun or anything else)? Would the fact that they are currently sleeping yett tomorrow morning will wake up and go to battle not a good enough reason since "currently" - (at this night while they are sleeping) they are not a threat, while in the morning they will be?
 In a war their are no "innocent civilians" especially not arabs. Some make bombs and others make babies, but all in all they are supplying or making more and more threats. And their support tells it all.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Occupation of a place that does not belong to you should be punished by expulsion, not by death. That's what Rabbi Kahane wanted : to expel the Arabs from Israel, not to massacre them.

 Have you not read Rabbi Kahane's books? (now that we are mentioning him, tonight is the Yertzeit of Rabbi Kahane ZTKL HYD).
 He clearly defines what needs to be done to enemies. In practical terms because of the weaklings transfer is proposed, but if all else fails ......

[Zelhar]

Occupation of a place that does not belong to you should be punished by expulsion, not by death. That's what Rabbi Kahane wanted : to expel the Arabs from Israel, not to massacre them.

I don't think it's my place to deal punishment for anyone, that is for God to decide. However as far as I am concerned adult arab muslim nazi men who tress pass and defile the machpela don't have any rights. I don't support extermination of such people, but I also don't consider it a loss when anyone of them expires. They are evil doers and the world is a better place without them.

I can see many negative things in Goldstein action but none of them is due to remorse or sorrow for the slain Arab. I don't want us to become a society of vigilantes for one thing. And the consequences of the killings were sever constrictions of the Jewish presence in Hebron for another reason.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

בס''ד

1. I know this is an emotional issue. But we are all Jews (those who have responded to this thread are Jews). If we have differences of opinion, we should not take it personally. We are all brothers.

2. JTF is a law-abiding organization. We do not engage in nor encourage any illegal activity here or in Israel. I believe that we are more effective when we are law-abiding.

3. Now for some legal tips to those who admire Dr. Baruch Goldstein zt"l hy"d. Legally it is problematic to applaud Dr. Goldstein's action. However, it is perfectly legal to say, "We do not condemn what Dr. Goldstein did". No one can legally force you to condemn someone else's action.

4. Therefore that is my position on this issue: I do not condemn what Dr. Goldstein did. That was not a mosque. Mearat HaMachpelah is the second holiest place in the world after Har HaBayit. These Muslim Nazis were desecrating our holy place and praying for our destruction. Islam itself is ipso facto a religion of terror and genocide because that is what Mohammed ys"v commanded all Muslims to engage in. Dr. Goldstein was a captain in the IDF. His commanders told him to prepare for a huge massacre of Jews that the Muslim Nazis in Chevron were preparing to carry out. Dr. Goldstein acted to protect his fellow Jews including his wife and his four little children who lived in Kiryat Arba which was supposed to be part of the planned Islamic terrorist massacre.

[Yaakov Mendel]

I don't think it's my place to deal punishment for anyone, that is for G-d to decide. However as far as I am concerned adult arab muslim nazi men who tress pass and defile the machpela don't have any rights. I don't support extermination of such people, but I also don't consider it a loss when anyone of them expires. They are evil doers and the world is a better place without them.

I can see many negative things in Goldstein action but none of them is due to remorse or sorrow for the slain Arab. I don't want us to become a society of vigilantes for one thing. And the consequences of the killings were sever constrictions of the Jewish presence in Hebron for another reason.

Then, we basically agree. Like I said before, I have no insane compassion for Muslims who hate us. The only one I feel sorry for in this event is Baruch Goldstein. All my heart goes for the Jews and only for the Jews.

[syyuge]

Now hope it resolves the basic dilemma by "We do not condemn".

[Dr. Dan]

Who says a threat has to be immediate? In this case what if enemy soldiers were sleeping in tents or something and you got a chance to go inside. If you know you cant capture them would you not kill them? (Bomb, gun or anything else)? Would the fact that they are currently sleeping yett tomorrow morning will wake up and go to battle not a good enough reason since "currently" - (at this night while they are sleeping) they are not a threat, while in the morning they will be?
 In a war their are no "innocent civilians" especially not arabs. Some make bombs and others make babies, but all in all they are supplying or making more and more threats. And their support tells it all.

What should be done to sleeping enemy soldiers should be the very thing they would have done to our soldiers.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

What should be done to sleeping enemy soldiers should be the very thing they would have done to our soldiers.

 Exactly. That was my point in bringing the example of the "sleeping enemies", and someone not being an "immediate threat". We need to use logic and look out for the long-term survival of the Jewish nation.

[Dr. Dan]

Exactly. That was my point in bringing the example of the "sleeping enemies", and someone not being an "immediate threat". We need to use logic and look out for the long-term survival of the Jewish nation.

the problem with Hamas and Fatah is that there are no soldiers.  And if one can justify the concept of, "well that's too bad," my answer would be, "not so fast.  Are you achieving an appropriate long term result?"

Think of it like this with cancer.  When you kill cancer cells, you have to make sure to prevent it from recurring.  So a long term strategy is appropriate to rid one's body from cancer.  Also some treatments in the past worked better back then than it would work now. A different way will be needed to achieve the same if not better result.  Think about it.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

the problem with Hamas and Fatah is that there are no soldiers.  And if one can justify the concept of, "well that's too bad," my answer would be, "not so fast.  Are you achieving an appropriate long term result?"

 You know I am re (listening) the the above shiur I posted earlier here.
http://machonshilo.org/en/images/stories/files/Ethics%20of%20War-Torah%20Perspective.mp3

 and to your answer, my answer is no, they ARE soldiers. A soldier is not just someone who has a uniform and a gun. Hamas and Fatah are soldiers of their ideologies. They are part of their society and act upon for their society and their religion. Not only are they part of their society they are also backed by the people of their society. Soo to claim as the muslims are that terrorist organizations are just acting for themselves is a joke and a lie. They (the population) has a moral duty to stop their terrorism. What do they do instead? Fully support them. These are their soldiers.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Think of it like this with cancer.  When you kill cancer cells, you have to make sure to prevent it from recurring.  So a long term strategy is appropriate to rid one's body from cancer.  Also some treatments in the past worked better back then than it would work now. A different way will be needed to achieve the same if not better result.  Think about it.

 Yes, transfer is a great solution. If all else fails what needs to be done needs to be done. Personally I wouldn't take someone snipping me or my comrades in a building lightly. At the moment I would be looking out for my survival and if need be to throw a bomb unto a building with a snipper, soo be it. (this is even by "international laws" as well) soo what is the problem?

[Dr. Dan]

You know I am re (listening) the the above shiur I posted earlier here.
http://machonshilo.org/en/images/stories/files/Ethics%20of%20War-Torah%20Perspective.mp3

 and to your answer, my answer is no, they ARE soldiers. A soldier is not just someone who has a uniform and a gun. Hamas and Fatah are soldiers of their ideologies. They are part of their society and act upon for their society and their religion. Not only are they part of their society they are also backed by the people of their society. Soo to claim as the muslims are that terrorist organizations are just acting for themselves is a joke and a lie. They (the population) has a moral duty to stop their terrorism. What do they do instead? Fully support them. These are their soldiers.

That's basically what I was saying.  You can't identify so easily which men are the soldiers with Hamas and Fatah..and while that's too bad for them, individual vigilantes have to think long term what is the best strategy.  A Jewish army however should do what Gd commands no maturer what works opinion is.  Except there is no true Jewish army in Israel.

[Dr. Dan]

Yes, transfer is a great solution. If all else fails what needs to be done needs to be done. Personally I wouldn't take someone snipping me or my comrades in a building lightly. At the moment I would be looking out for my survival and if need be to throw a bomb unto a building with a snipper, soo be it. (this is even by "international laws" as well) soo what is the problem?

In a battle you protect yourself and your comrades over the enemy "civilians" especially Israel's enemy civilians who are mostly not innocent by any means.

[Secularbeliever]

In a battle you protect yourself and your comrades over the enemy "civilians" especially Israel's enemy civilians who are mostly not innocent by any means.

I could never understand during the early days of the 2nd Intifada, the Israelis would respond to a vicious, brutal, mass murder of civilians by bombing a factory that made suicide belts.  Of course they would bomb it at night when the workers were not there.  They destroyed the building but did no harm to the workers.

Now this is a case where people working at a plant that builds suicide belts are as far from innocent as any street walking hooker.  They should have bombed at the busiest part of the day and killed as many workers as possible.  Let the word get out that this is a hazzardous job.  Let the workers start looking for alternative work immediately.  Same with a camp where 5 year olds are learning to be suicide bombers.  If 5 year olds get killed in the process let the word get out to parents not to send your little kids to Hamas, Nazi training camps.

[Secularbeliever]

Yes, transfer is a great solution. If all else fails what needs to be done needs to be done. Personally I wouldn't take someone snipping me or my comrades in a building lightly. At the moment I would be looking out for my survival and if need be to throw a bomb unto a building with a snipper, soo be it. (this is even by "international laws" as well) soo what is the problem?

Transfer would have been very viable as a solution right after June 1967.  The Arabs would have left with very little prodding, they were terrified of Jews.  I have a friend (a liberal) who told me in 1968 he was hitch hiking around Gaza and thought nothing of it.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Hey, I get it, Wink Wink.

I "Don't Condemn (TM)" Baruch Goldstein ZT"L.


Look, if JTF the organization cannot praise Goldstein because of legal obligations, fine.  But myself as an individual who simply types messages on JTF's forum and has no association or position with the JTF organization, I think I am free to praise him as the tzaddik that he was, aren't I?   Is it legal to state that he was a tzaddik?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Transfer would have been very viable as a solution right after June 1967.  The Arabs would have left with very little prodding, they were terrified of Jews.  I have a friend (a liberal) who told me in 1968 he was hitch hiking around Gaza and thought nothing of it.

In some places arabs were fleeing in terror and Moshe Dayan got on loudspeaker and begged them please come back, please don't leave!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Btw, is there a way we can construct graphics like this video? 

[muman613]

Btw, is there a way we can construct graphics like this video?  

Probably... Look into 3-D software such as Blender...

http://www.blender.org/

[Secularbeliever]

Hey, I get it, Wink Wink.

I "Don't Condemn (TM)" Baruch Goldstein ZT"L.


Look, if JTF the organization cannot praise Goldstein because of legal obligations, fine.  But myself as an individual who simply types messages on JTF's forum and has no association or position with the JTF organization, I think I am free to praise him as the tzaddik that he was, aren't I?   Is it legal to state that he was a tzaddik?

I don't agree with what he did at the Machpela but I consider him to be a good man.  Everyone can agree he lived an exemplary life until that point.  Had he survived I would be in favor of him getting out of prison.

[Yaakov Mendel]

Who says a threat has to be immediate? In this case what if enemy soldiers were sleeping in tents or something and you got a chance to go inside. If you know you cant capture them would you not kill them? (Bomb, gun or anything else)? Would the fact that they are currently sleeping yett tomorrow morning will wake up and go to battle not a good enough reason since "currently" - (at this night while they are sleeping) they are not a threat, while in the morning they will be?

Again, the comparison is not valid because the people Baruch Goldstein shot were not soldiers in a war. Many of them may have been Muslims who hate us but you don't kill someone just because he hates you. You have the right to kill someone in self-defence. What Baruch Goldstein did was not self-defence. Some may argue that it could be equated with a pre-emptive strike. But for a pre-emptive strike to be justified, there needs to be hard evidence that you are about to be attacked and that you won't be able to defend yourself properly if you don't strike first. I am not certain that these conditions were met in Baruch Goldstein's case.

In a war their are no "innocent civilians" especially not arabs. Some make bombs and others make babies, but all in all they are supplying or making more and more threats. And their support tells it all.

It's not that simple. I agree to a certain extent that there is no such thing as completely "innocent" civilians. But only to a certain extent. For example, under a certain age, it's difficult to say that a child is fully responsible. And a number of Arab civilians in Israel are neither monsters nor angels. Some of them, while they may resent Jewish presence, do not help terrorists and do not carry out violent acts against Jews. They should not be treated as soldiers in a war hard-bent on the extermination of Jews. They should be encouraged to leave with compensation. That's JTF/HaYamin HaAmiti's policy, if I'm not mistaken.