613+7=620 : What is the meaning of this?

[muman613]

Recently I have been listening to a CD I burned which has several of the songs from Prodezra Beats {which I posted in the 'Somewhat Kosher Hip-Hop' thread}. One of the songs , which I could not remember till this evening when driving home, contains a bit of Jewish wisdom which I had never heard before. I guess this is a chance to learn something from everyone, including a Baal Teshuva hip-hop artist...

First I will present the lyrics {which I just transposed from listening to the song}:

FLIP

Got a lot of problems in the world man

Gotta turn this thing around

Turn it over, you know

The sages say before Moshiach we'd be upside down
Thats why Im doing what I can to turn the world around and make it flip
Flip Flip Flip

In the last days the world is fairly getting colder
So we gotta make a change and turn this thing over and make it flip
Flip Flip Flip

Tell me you don't feel what I feel while I'm rockin this?
Tell me you don't feel that somebody should be stopping this? I'm dropping this...
Knowledge this is my hypothesis, things looking shady people screaming bout apocolypse
And common sense will tell you somethings bigs about to pop
Ancient prophecies coming true with no flop
You don't stop when your bumping this up in your car or your headphones
so long as you get the message home
We can make it happen, positive or negative
Destroy the sedative or we could sleep, your perogative
Provacative, I'm trying to be
New world that I'm trying to see
Not a globalist, redemptionist is what their calling me
If we could take a microscope, and look into the isotope
And try to clone what Moshe wrote, they still can't make what G-d spoke
Livin without him is looking real hard
Just the other day a Jew told me he didn't believe in G-d

The sages say before Moshiach we'd be upside down
Thats why Im doing what I can to turn the world around and make it flip
Flip Flip Flip

In the last days the world is fairly getting colder
So we gotta make a change and turn this thing over and make it flip
Flip Flip Flip

Push me in a corner try to label me a goner
Then I'm right back on ya with the Torah that I'm holding
Cause the King is round the corner, no I'm not a performer
I'm just another soldier in this army trying to show ya that
Time is getting shorter, things ain't what their supposed to be
How could you judge me when all you did was look at me
And throw the book at me like you were judge and you were jury
This is the kind of thing that made me write this song, see...

The world we're living in is UPSIDE DOWN
Right is wrong and wrong is right it's all going down
And left is right and right is left, will you please forget yourself?
We can pick it up and keep it up before theres nothing left
Myself is who I'm talking to, including you...
So whats the news, it ain't good man, we so confused
Six One Three Plus Seven Equals Six Twenty guidelines to make change yeah we got plans

The sages say before Moshiach we'd be upside down
Thats why Im doing what I can to turn the world around and make it flip
Flip Flip Flip

In the last days the world is fairly getting colder
So we gotta make a change and turn this thing over and make it flip
Flip Flip Flip

So the idea which I learned is this.... The Aseret HaDibrot {Ten Utterances/Commandments} contain 620 letters {The ten commandments given on the first tablets which Moshe brought down} which happens to be the value of the # of Mitzvot given in the Torah to the Jews plus the Seven Noachide laws. Thus 620 is representative of all of humanity worshiping Hashem alone... The number 620 also is the gematria of Keter, which means crown, which in Kabbalah is representative of on of Hashems middot.

Several rabbinic works group the mitzvos according to their association with the Ten Commandments highlighting them as t he ideological basis for the 613 mitzvos in the Torah. This is beautifully alluded in how the text of the Ten Commandments contains 620 letters (Bamidbar Rabbah 13:16) that correspond to the 613 mitzvos plus the 7 rabbinic precepts (or the 7 Noachide laws). Of parenthetic note, is how the number 613 itself reduces to (6+1+3=) 10.

G‑d’s Will
While the biblical commandments number 613, there are in fact an additional 7 rabbinical commandments. The Kabbalists explain that the Hebrew word for crown (keter—כתר) has the numeric value of 620, the sum of the biblical and rabbinical commandments.

In Kabbalistic teachings the concept of a crown, which sits atop the head, is used as a metaphor for willpower (crown) which is higher than intellect (brain). A person’s will is higher than his intellect. A person’s desire can be an expression of his innermost self and the very depths of his soul. That intrinsic desire can empower him to act contrary to logic. Sometimes it is one’s innermost desire that shapes his mode of logic, because desire is such a deep manifestation of the soul that it dominates all other facets of the soul. That is why it is called a “crown.”7

In reference to the spiritual spheres, the Kabbalists call this will the Supreme Crown. It is the supreme level of G‑dliness that transcends all spiritual worlds, the supreme will. Rabbi Shneur Zalman of Liadi, the first Chabad Rebbe, explains that by fulfilling the physical commandments in our world, we bring this transcendent level of G‑dliness into our lives, our surroundings, and our world.8

By the way, 620 is the numeric value of the word KETER, the CROWN (of Torah). And by the way by the way, the numeric value of KETER TORAH is 620 + 611 = 1231. Which happens to be the G'matriya of ASERET HA'D'VARIM (the Ten Commandments) = 70+300+ 200+400 (970) + 5+4+2+200+10+40 (261) = 1231. The Aseret HaDibrot in Yitro, by the way, by the way, by the way, are made up of 620 letters.

References:

http://wap.torah.org/learning/livinglaw/5768/yisro.html

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1556513/jewish/What-Is-the-Significance-of-the-Number-of-Gds-613-Commandments.htm

[muman613]

I just transcribed the lyrics of another Prodezra song which I like, called "Between the Lines".

The concept of the song is that the Torah and the entire Tanakh are not just texts, or scriptures, but they are actually an insight for the entirety of creation. That everyone, every Jewish soul alive, has a special place in our Holy Torah. Through extensive reading, understanding the different levels of Torah study {calle PaRDeS}, through Kabbalah and Gematria we can learn from the Guide to Life which was given to us at Sinai...

Between the Lines

Theres only one key to all the questions on your mind
Time to open up the book you hear me

So many years so many tears we try to sing
Then I started flipping through the pages I was bound win
Read between the lines man, read between the lines, Read between the lines and your story you will find

So many years so many tears we try to sing
Then I started flipping through the pages I was bound win
Read between the lines man, read between the lines, Read between the lines and your story you will find

Open up the book of secrets try my best to clear my mind
Man does it apply to me, or just a book that is trapped in time
Or divine meaning I could find myself in every line
Thinking that its ancient, just be patient, that could be a crime
I need a guide, commentary, thats my sanctuary
When you think you can make it on your own then its very scary
Like mixing meat and dairy
Living life contrary, to whats the truth you become your own adversary
He didn't put you on the earth with no guidelines you can make the dark shine
obstacles far behind
Then your a star in the sky, I'll call your prime time
But if you don't learn the light reflects and makes you blind
Everything thats written no doubt it applies to you
Just take a deeper look at everything you've been through
Then dissect the words and letters magnifying glass
Pretty sure you'll figure you aint just reading bout the past

So many years so many tears we try to sing
Then I started flipping through the pages I was bound win
Read between the lines man, read between the lines, Read between the lines and your story you will find

So many years so many tears we try to sing
Then I started flipping through the pages I was bound win
Read between the lines man, read between the lines, Read between the lines and your story you will find

Gematria and atbash open up the lock box
Secrets of the scripture but you question it like sasquatch
Imagine misjudging the time thats on your time clock
Sign train passes while your sitting on the sidewalk

This is real talk pictures painted perfectly
and I know your in it if your looking closely
get to know the artist well, that's intimately
and read his magnum opus, find out your identity
Because the enemy, with weapons, he can draw down
But that ain't nothing, to infinity, we draw down
By studying and mastering the words are profound
And I can see it in your eyes you want to slow down
Population 14 million Jews that were census rated
Thats 14 million soldiers clearly underestimated
Time is precious, don't you waste it on futility
Pride is a small price to pay for your humility

So many years so many tears we try to sing
Then I started flipping through the pages I was bound win
Read between the lines man, read between the lines, Read between the lines and your story you will find

So many years so many tears we try to sing
Then I started flipping through the pages I was bound win
Read between the lines man, read between the lines, Read between the lines and your story you will find

Amazing as you say the words they rise up with no delay
Piercing through the upper worlds, then off the heavens, riccochet
Light beams back down and takes the form of revelation
Blessings in your life, miracles for the whole nation
Im waiting for the day when you realize your mission
Cause that itself could bring the godly plan to fruition
So time to study, no more talking, cause I'm tired of wishin
After this song pick up Gutnik or the Stone Edition

So many years so many tears we try to sing
Then I started flipping through the pages I was bound win
Read between the lines man, read between the lines, and your story you will find

So many years so many tears we try to sing
Then I started flipping through the pages I was bound win
Read between the lines man, read between the lines, and your story you will find

[Zelhar]

I say it's not very sensible. You see 7 and 613 are relatively prime (in fact both are prime numbers), so you can create any integer from them by addition and subtraction.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Didnt read this long post, but 613 + 7 could be a reference to 613 Biblical Commandments and 7 Rabbinic (ex- Hannukah, Purim, Candles, etc.)

[muman613]

Didnt read this long post, but 613 + 7 could be a reference to 613 Biblical Commandments and 7 Rabbinic (ex- Hannukah, Purim, Candles, etc.)

If you read it you would learn that the 7 rabbinic laws are the noachide laws. and 620 is the # of letters in the 10 commandments and also the gematria of the word keter... The point of posting is to teach and to learn...

[muman613]

I say it's not very sensible. You see 7 and 613 are relatively prime (in fact both are prime numbers), so you can create any integer from them by addition and subtraction.

So what if they are prime. There are 620 letters in the 10 commandments,  there are 613 mitzvot and 7 rabbinic laws, add them together and you get 620... The number which is equal to keter... what is the difference if they are prime..

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

If you read it you would learn that the 7 rabbinic laws are the noachide laws. and 620 is the # of letters in the 10 commandments and also the gematria of the word keter... The point of posting is to teach and to learn...

 7 Rabbinic laws are different then the 7 Noahide laws. I dont know of any Noahide obligated in celebrating Hannukah or Purim, or lighting candles for shabbouss.

"1. Washing the hands for bread.
2. Laws of Eruv.
3. Reciting a blesing before partaking of food or any other pleasure.
4. Lighting Shabbat Candles.
5. Celebration of Purim.
6. Celebration of Chanukah.
7. Recitation of the prayer of praise called Hallel on certain occasions.


http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/411,429/What-are-the-seven-rabbinic-mitzvahs.html

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7 Noaide laws are
    Prohibition of Idolatry
    Prohibition of Murder
    Prohibition of Theft
    Prohibition of Sexual immorality
    Prohibition of Blasphemy
    Prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive
    Establishment of courts of law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah

________________________________________________________________--

 Clearly different?

[Zelhar]

So what if they are prime. There are 620 letters in the 10 commandments,  there are 613 mitzvot and 7 rabbinic laws, add them together and you get 620... The number which is equal to keter... what is the difference if they are prime..

You can get any number from 7,613 using addition and substraction.

[muman613]

7 Rabbinic laws are different then the 7 Noahide laws. I dont know of any Noahide obligated in celebrating Hannukah or Purim, or lighting candles for shabbouss.

"1. Washing the hands for bread.
2. Laws of Eruv.
3. Reciting a blesing before partaking of food or any other pleasure.
4. Lighting Shabbat Candles.
5. Celebration of Purim.
6. Celebration of Chanukah.
7. Recitation of the prayer of praise called Hallel on certain occasions.


http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/411,429/What-are-the-seven-rabbinic-mitzvahs.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7 Noaide laws are
    Prohibition of Idolatry
    Prohibition of Murder
    Prohibition of Theft
    Prohibition of Sexual immorality
    Prohibition of Blasphemy
    Prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive
    Establishment of courts of law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah

________________________________________________________________--

 Clearly different?

yes they are different... Nobody claimed otherwise...

But the 7 in the 613+7 are the Noachide laws... As several sources I brought also support...

The 'big idea' of this is that Hashems will encompasses both the Jewish 613 commandments and the 7 Noachide laws...

You are the one who suggested that it is the 7 Rabbinic mitzvahs.... That is your interpretation, but it is not the interpretation of the sages...

[muman613]

You can get any number from 7,613 using addition and substraction.

Yes 620 is EQUAL TO 613 PLUS 7.... There is no other answer to 613+7, is there?

620 is EQUAL to the NUMBER OF LETTERS in the 10 Commandments... This is not debatable...

620 is EQUAL to the Gematria of Keter/Crown.... That is not debatable...

Your trying to inject 'prime numbers' into this has no use in trying to understand the concept...

[muman613]

Tag-Machir,

Some Rabbis do interpret this to be the 7 Mitzvot DiRabbanam.... But others, actually most, interpret it to be the 7 Noachide laws...

http://revach.net/lists/article.php?id=69
7 Mitzvos DiRabbanan That Complete The Crown
There are 613 or Taryag Mitzvos in the Torah.  There are another 7 Mitzvos MiDirabanan.  That makes 620 or Kesser which means crown.  Hashem's crown is not complete without the mitzvos DiRabanan.  In the Aseres HaDibros which is the basis for the Taryag Mitzvos we find 620 letters. Below is a list of these seven mitzvos.

http://www.inner.org/parshah/genesis/noach/KMN-excerpt.php

Torah’s 613 commandments. Indeed, even the earliest commentators on the Torah write that the text of the Ten Commandments alludes to all 613 commandments. The most important allusion to this is that the original Hebrew text of the Ten Commandments (as they appear in Exodus 20:2 thru 20:13) contains exactly 620 letters. 620 is 7 more than 613. According to some Rabbinic authorities, the 7 commandments that complement the 613 commandments given to the Jewish people are the 7 Laws of Bnei Noach, that were given to the first generations of man, beginning with Adam.
620 is the numerical value of the word “crown,” in Hebrew. As such we find that the Jewish people—who carry the responsibility for 613 commandments—together with the righteous gentiles who are responsible for the universal commandments, together adorn the Almighty’s crown of Kingship over the entire world with 620 jewels—the commandments of the Almighty’s words unto man.  

http://www.kabbalaonline.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/1215865/jewish/Divine-Names-Divine-Dimensions.htm

The Ten Commandments consist of 620 letters, corresponding to the Crown [in Hebrew keter, which has a numerical value of 620] of Torah. 613 of these letters represent the 613 commandments of the Torah that are addressed to the Jewish people, whereas the other 7 letters represent the 7 Noahide laws, addressed to all of mankind. It is fairly obvious then that the Ten Commandments more than any other part of the Torah contains the mystical dimension of the Ineffable Name.

So I guess that you correct to consider them the 7 Mitzvot DiRabbanam, although the concept is more universal when applied to the seven Noachide laws...


See this discussion for more insight:

http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol24/v24n103.shtml#03

http://www.noahide.org/article.asp?Level=285&Parent=166

Mitvoths Bnai Noach that were repeated in the Ten Commandments

The Seven Noachide Laws that were given to Moshe with the Ten Commandments, are enumerated separately from the 613 commandments, and are distinct from them in many fundamental ways and aspects.

...The Baal HaTurim (Shemos 20:13) wrote that the 620 letters of the ten commandments correspond to the 613 Mitvoths and the 7 Mitvoths Bnai Noach, and he asks that behold the 7 Mivoths Bnai Noach, Avodah Zarah and Illicit Relations etc. were already included in the 613 commandments.

The Answer: it would have been possible to offer several explanations for this, however in truth there is really no question/difficulty in the first place since also in the 613 Mitvoths the intention is not 613 various general categories, rather the particular inyanim/matters are also taken into consideration if they contain a particular commandment, for example the laws of Avodah Zarah (idolotry) that contain within them several positive commandments/Mitvoths and negative commandments and each one of them is considered to be part of the enumeration of the 613 Mitvoths (the definitions for this are explained in the Sefer HaMivoths by the Rambam - shoresh 9 - and the commentaries there). And how much the more so with regards to the Seven Mitvoths Bnai Noach that contain specific commandents and with fundamental distinctions from the 613 Mitvoths of the Bnai Israel - that are enumerated independently...

(Kol Baie Olam p. 18. quoting Likutei Sichos 2:670)

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

yes they are different... Nobody claimed otherwise...

But the 7 in the 613+7 are the Noachide laws... As several sources I brought also support...

The 'big idea' of this is that Hashems will encompasses both the Jewish 613 commandments and the 7 Noachide laws...

You are the one who suggested that it is the 7 Rabbinic mitzvahs.... That is your interpretation, but it is not the interpretation of the sages...

 Whattt? The 7 laws of Noah are part of the 613 Mitzwoth that the Jews have to perform. Thus they are included in the count of the 613 (ex- Do not Murder, do not Kidnap, etc. is one of the 613). The 7 "additional" Mitzwoth are Rabbinically sourced and together 613 + 7 Rabbinic Mitzwoth= 620 Mitzwoth (anyway its not exactly like that either, but the 613 +7 serve as "roots" in actuality).

[muman613]

Whattt? The 7 laws of Noah are part of the 613 Mitzwoth that the Jews have to perform. Thus they are included in the count of the 613 (ex- Do not Murder, do not Kidnap, etc. is one of the 613). The 7 "additional" Mitzwoth are Rabbinically sourced and together 613 + 7 Rabbinic Mitzwoth= 620 Mitzwoth (anyway its not exactly like that either, but the 613 +7 serve as "roots" in actuality).

See the answer which I attached to the last post for an Answer to this question... One of the sages who introduced this idea was the Baal HaTurim

[Zelhar]

Yes 620 is EQUAL TO 613 PLUS 7.... There is no other answer to 613+7, is there?

620 is EQUAL to the NUMBER OF LETTERS in the 10 Commandments... This is not debatable...

620 is EQUAL to the Gematria of Keter/Crown.... That is not debatable...

Your trying to inject 'prime numbers' into this has no use in trying to understand the concept...

and 613=87×7+4, 7=4+3, 4=3+1, so 1=4-3=(613-87×7)-(7-4)=613-87×7-7+4=
=613-88×7+(613-87×7)=2×613-175×7=1

So, for example, 621=621×1=621(2×613-175×7)=1242×613-108675×7

[muman613]

and 613=87×7+4, 7=4+3, 4=3+1, so 1=4-3=(613-87×7)-(7-4)=613-87×7-7+4=
=613-88×7+(613-87×7)=2×613-175×7=1

So, for example, 621=621×1=621(2×613-175×7)=1242×613-108675×7

Once again I fail to understand what you are getting at. Do you think these calculations have anything to do with the fact that 613 + 7 = 620? It is very simple addition... No division, no multiplication, no factors, no prime numbers.

Do you understand the basic addition operator? It is one of the simplest arithmetic operators we know {although subtraction is similar}. There are applications of Gematria which involve multiplication such as the idea that Chai, the numerical value of 18, is a lucky number so people often donate money in multiples of 18, for instance $18, $36, $72, $90, $180, etc...

[Zelhar]

There is no need for multiplication in my formula either. You just have to repeatedly ADD 613 for 1242 time, and subtract 7 from the result another 108675 times. You see, simple ADDITION and SUBTRACTION operations alone and you can get any number you wish.

[muman613]

There is no need for multiplication in my formula either. You just have to repeatedly ADD 613 for 1242 time, and subtract 7 from the result another 108675 times. You see, simple ADDITION and SUBTRACTION operations alone and you can get any number you wish.

But what is the point of your equation. The original insight was concerning the fact that there are 613 Mitzvot in the written Torah, and 7 noachide {or 7 DiRabbanom Mitzvot}... This makes sense when we see that the addition of these two numbers equals 620. Do you suggest 613+7 is equal to something other than 620? Maybe you refer to 'imaginary numbers' or other such things... Again this is outside the original discussion.

It is a simple concept and I don't understand why discussing other equations is related. 613+7=620 which relates to the # of letters in the 10 commandments and the numerical value of Keter...

Simple enough...

For those interested in how Gematria works there is a good discussion of this @

http://www.inner.org/torah_and_science/mathematics/gematria/index.php

[Zelhar]

let's just say I've seen more impressive gimatrias.

[muman613]

let's just say I've seen more impressive gimatrias.

Lucky you... Why don't you discuss some of them here?

[Zelhar]

Lucky you... Why don't you discuss some of them here?

Well there is at least one classic example that was actually used to rule halacha: What is the standard duration of a nezirut oath ?
It is written:
 ("עד מלאת הימים אשר יזיר לה', קדוש יהיה" (במדבר, ו, ה"
until the completion of the days that he would pledge to God, holly shall he be (my rough translation)

the word יהיה ("shall he be" in my translation), adds up to 30, and the halacha says that is the minimal period of nezirut unless specifically said otherwise by the oath giver.