Author Topic: What Make Bernie Run - by Rabbi Meir Kahane  (Read 2809 times)

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Offline edu

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What Make Bernie Run - by Rabbi Meir Kahane
« on: November 16, 2011, 03:09:11 AM »
Tzvi Fishman in his blog in Israelnationalnews.com in honor of the recent Rabbi Kahane, memorial day,  brought up an old Rabbi Kahane essay about intermarriage.
Given the fact, that even certain members of this forum need to hear and accept the rebuke of Rabbi Kahane
I thought I would also quote what he quoted:


WHAT MAKES BERNIE RUN?

Rabbi Meir Kahane Hy"D

(Federal prison, Manhattan, Lag Ba'Omer, April 29, 1975)

Once there was a television program, which centered about the theme of intermarriage. The heroes of the piece were named Bernie and Brigitte. The American Jewish Establishment put great pressure on the particular network that televised the series and the program was ultimately dropped. Bernie and Brigitte were no longer. They had been canceled...

How relatively simple it was to cancel Bernie and Brigitte on television and how much more difficult to struggle against the curse and cancer of intermarriage and assimilation that exists in real American Jewish life. How simple to picket a television series to death and how hard to stamp out the disease that afflicts us daily in the real-life existence that is the lot of American Jewry. lf we no longer find Bernie and Brigitte strolling hand in hand across our television screens we need only look at our campuses, at our streets at our neighborhoods, Bernie is alive and well.

What makes Bernie run? What makes Bernie run after Brigitte? What makes Bernie run away from Judaism and cut the chain of generations? What makes Bernie run away from the Judaism that his great-grandfather clutched at the risk of loss of happiness material wealth and so often very life? What makes Bernie run? This is the question that drives the American Jewish Establishment to frantically set up committees, study groups, surveys and commissions. This is the question that drives them to study the problem again and again and then again. This is the question to which they allocate so much time and so much communal money. This is the question that is at the top of their puzzled order of priorities, over which they scratch their collective well-groomed heads: What makes Bernie run?

The puzzled shepherds of the American Jewish communities can close down their study groups and their commissions and their committees: they can put an end to the learned and expensive surveys. They can stop spending Jewish communal funds. What makes Bernie run away from Judaism? Who created that Bernie who turns from Judaism in disgust or in indifference? Who created the Bernie who pants after a shiksa or who marches for Jesus or Trotsky or Arafat or for nothing Jewish? Who created a Bernie who finds Judaism as unimportant as the color of his hair?

Why, the answer is obvious: The very same Establishment groups who are busily creating the committees, commissions, study groups and surveys to find out the answer to these questions. Who made Bernie run away from Judaism? The American Jewish Committee, the American Jewish Congress, the B'nai Brith, the federations on every level and in every locality, the temple rabbis and Bernie's most intimate Establishment figures- his parents.

All of these are the criminals. All of these had a hand in murdering Bernie as a Jew. All of these robbed him of his heritage, of the beauties of his inheritance. All of these make Bernie run. The Jewish Establishment groups - The AJCommittee, the Congress, the B'nai Brith, the federations, ALL the spokesmen for the American Jewish community - the ruling clique, uniformly marched down the American road with a melting pot under their arms, beating it over and over again and shouting forth the Eleventh Commandment to the American Jew: Thou shalt melt!

Thou shalt melt, thou shalt integrate, thou shalt amalgamate, thou shalt be an American as all others. They beat the drums for interfaith, exchanging pulpits with ministers enthusiastically, in a frantic effort to prove to Christian and Jew alike that there is essentially no difference between them. They were partially successful - the Christians were not convinced but the Jews were.

Thou shalt melt, thou shalt integrate, thou shalt Americanize thyself and so they raised high the banner of the public school and fought, with a zeal no one knew that they possessed, the one weapon that might have given Bernie knowledge, and a sense of pride and roots. In fear and with hostility, they declared a holy war against the Jewish Day School, the parochial school, and the yeshiva. They piously rationalized their struggle on the sacred grounds of separation of church and state but the real reason for their war (and they took the lead among all Americans in fighting the slightest aid to parochial schools) was their fear and consequent hatred of the parochialism and separatism of the yeshiva. The yeshiva threatened them with too much Jewishness! What would the gentile say if Jews were too Jewish, If they looked and behaved too differently, if their profile was not properly low? How did one mix easily with gentiles in the non-kosher country clubs they were so eager to join; how did one assimilate if Jews did not learn to drop the embarrassing customs, habits and old ritual baggage?

The public school! This was the way to equality, to uniformity, to mixing and assimilating. And so, they urged their flock to send Bernie to the public school (and the flock, as eager to mix as the shepherds, needed little urging). Bernie went to public school.

And today as the shepherds run frenziedly about surveying Bernie and asking him, where did you meet Brigitte? He calmly answers: "Why, in the public school in the public school; in the public school to which you sent me!"

Who made Bernie what he is? Who made Bernie run? The Establishment groups, and leaders who took a Judaism of particularism, of separatism, of uniqueness, of DlFFERENCE, and who- in their fears, insecurities and ignorance- created an American brand that leveled all uniqueness, 'proved' that Jews and Christians were no different, and eliminated every logical and moral reason to be different. They created Bernie: they made Bernie run.

And who else made Bernie run away from Judaism? Who else made Bernie what he is and is not? The massive, gaudy mausoleums that dot the landscape of every Jewish suburb. The temples. The temples whose senior rabbi is the caterer. The temples that perform human sacrifice rites each Sabbath morning and they call them, The Bar Mitzvah.

The Bar Mitzvah, that is not the beginning of a Jew but his end, his spiritual death. The Bar Mitzvah- that culmination of an empty, vapid, childish, shallow Jewish "education," taught by men and women whose ignorance and lack of Jewish content makes them superb vehicles for the "education" they pass on. The Bar Mitzvah, that obscene cult of ostentatiousness, the ultimate in Jewish status seeking, the competitive drive to bankrupt that pathetic and hapless "father of the Bar Mitzvah." The Bar Mitzvah where the young lamb babbles the words he neither understands nor cares to, to the accompanying nachas, pride, of beaming women and men who would not know a correct word from a mistake, whose ignorance is sublime and whose disgusting display of conspicuous vulgarity sends G-d fleeing from the mausoleum in wrath...

The Bar Mitzvah whose necessary "religious" interlude long ago was subordinated to the piece-de-resistance of the entire immorality play - the "reception." The sickening waste of money and degrading of Judaism, where materialism runs amok in the guise of religion, where drunks and half-dressed women dance and give praise to the L-rd, with African dance, American tunes, and universal abomination. The Bar Mitzvah where the assimilationists, ignoramuses and despoilers of Judaism, beam with patronizing pleasure as the decrepit grandmother- Bubby- is resurrected from her nursing home or Miami Beach condominium and trotted out to light a candle to the applause of the go-go girls and dirty comedians waiting to do their act.

The temple, where man thinks up G-d rather than admit that He made him. The temples, where the Jew can create any kind of religion that he cares to and call it Judaism. The temple, where things too difficult are junked and where from the Board of Directors shall come forth Torah and the voice of the L-rd from the approving Sisterhood membership. The temple, run by men whose ignorance of Judaism is exceeded only by their arrogant insistence on saluting it. The temple, where Bernie visits "G-d" and meets "Judaism" and flees from it in horror. The temples: they created Bernie, they made Bernie run.

And who else made Bernie run from Judaism? The temple rabbis. The kept theologians who knowingly preside over fraud and grotesque jokes. The well-paid functionaries whose salaries are payments to hold their silence and to declare light, darkness and darkness, light: to give their stamp of kashrut on the impure meat that their temples serve up as "Judaism." The bribe takers whose eyes are blinded and consciences dulled by kavod, the honor of sitting on the pulpit before the eyes of the congregants, and by the comfortable salary augmented by the offerings of thankful beneficiaries of weddings, funerals and unveilings. The false prophets who hold their silence as Judaism is twisted, perverted, turned into a humorless joke and who, knowing their own corruptness and fraud of soul, rush to justify the fraud by 'rabbinical' or lingo that pronounce them "good." The temple rabbis who take a Judaism of Divinity and truth and go about Reconstructing it and Reforming it and making a mockery of Conserving it.

The temple rabbis who took the age-old axiom of Revelation, real Revelation, upon which is built the Divinity of Torah and junked it. The temple rabbis who made Judaism the product of ''wise men" (and if so, are there not wise Christians and Buddhists and atheists) and thus removed any sacredness and necessary reason for observance. The temple rabbis, so many of whom do not believe in G-d, who took the real and awesome Jewish G-d of history who made man and Created all and who rewards and punishes, and exchanged Him for a "god" who is "the spirit within man," indistinguishable from indigestion...They are the models of Jewish "religious" leadership we give unto Bernie, these empty vessels whose greatest fortune is that their congregants know even less, about Judaism than they do.

These are your rabbis, Oh Bernie, and then we wonder why he refuses to enter the temple over which they preside. Only they themselves know what frauds they are; only they, in their hearts, know what a life of lies they lead: only they, in the inner recesses of their being, know the self- hate and contempt they feel for themselves each day that they have to perform acts of faith they no longer believe in and teach a religion that long ago they secretly began to doubt. The temple rabbis; they created Bernie, they made Bernie run.

And who else made Bernie run away from the embrace of Judaism into Brigitte's waiting arms? The parents, the good Jewish parents. The loving Jewish mother who took off her golden nose rings and made a Golden Calf, which she worships avidly. The Golden Calf called "success'' and "money" and "making it" and "my son-the-doctor." The Golden Calf of material success before which she burns incense and for which she threw the G-d of Jewish values into the trash cans of medieval obscurantism. The Jewish father whose values are those of the garment center and the racetrack and bagels and lox on Sunday morning before taking the family out to the Chinese restaurant on Sunday after-noon. The Jewish father who tries to think like a gentile, act like a gentile, dress like a gentile, drink like a gentile, and curse like a gentile and then demand that Bernie marry a "nice Jewish girl."

The Jewish parents whose credo is upward and upward in wealth and status and who created a comfortable Judaism that would accommodate their needs. Who moved to the suburbs and created a suburban Judaism, and a suburban G-d, ethical and cultured and nice- a vaguely Jewish Santa Claus. Who turned down the Orthodox synagogue of their parents, grandparents and generations beyond because it was too Jewish and too out of step with modern times and too difficult and too outmoded and not compatible with the new pagan-Jewish lifestyle they were creating. Who turned either to the Reform that gave both status (how familiar their Christian friends would find it if ever they stopped by) as well as license (one could be almost anything and do the same in that incredible anarchy known as Reform or -better still- to that new and upcoming movement known as "Conservatism."

How many Jewish refugees from Brooklyn and the Bronx arrived in their new status symbols in Massapequa find themselves surrounded by strange natives known generally as "goyim" with large tribal groups called "Protestants?" How many of the Jews, in panic, fearing that Bernie would come home with a Mary rather than a Shirley banded together to build a quick temple of "Jewish Center" to save their precious ones? How many of them who did not know a Jewish concept from a Catholic catechism decided to call it 'Conservative' because Orthodox is 'too old-fashioned' and Reform is 'like a church?' And how amazed was the minuscule, unimportant Conservative movement to be suddenly besieged with requests for 'Conservative rabbis' that did not exist? And how many Conservative temples were suddenly hiring Orthodox rabbis who prostituted themselves to the Long Island god of gold? And how true it is that it was not the Conservative movement (sic) that built all the new temples that suddenly made them so prominent but the ordinary, ignorant Jews who bought a temple just as they bought any other commodity they needed and who set the terms of the deal. Bernie's Parents bought their temple and their rabbi and proceeded to create Judaism and G-d in their own image. The garment center knew exactly how to cut a suit to fit...

Judaism, but not too much, If Bernie was sent to that vast cultural wasteland known as the "religious" or "Hebrew" school which he so despised, it was not so much that he become religious as so that he might acquire 'culture.' (At least enough to let him babble the proper words on the great day of Bar Mitzvah initiation rites.) lf he came home and mentioned something about Sabbath observance or a ban on ham and bacon, his parents smiled and told him that "we are not sending you there for that" or "you do not have to listen to everything the teacher says." They played games with Bernie and thought that they could deceive him never realizing in their own stupidity, that no one can ultimately deceive a child. They created a fraud and thought that they could foist it on their Bernie. They created a Judaism that was created in their own image- a Cohenism or a Goldbergism or a Schwartzism and tried to pretend that it was Judaism. They defrauded themselves because it so suited them and thought that Bernie would grow up to be as fraudulent, hypocritical, materialistic and disgusting as they. But he did not. That which makes Sammy run does not necessarily affect Bernie.

They thought that Judaism was a faucet that could be turned on and off at will. They wanted to give up the uncomfortable and the inconvenient things but still keep the 'important' things, like marrying a Shirley. Bernie was honest. He took the whole thing and junked it. He turned on the faucet all the way and Judaism spilled out in to it. He married Brigitte to the wailing of his parents who shrieked to one and all: Where did we go wrong??

Where did they go wrong??

Where did they go right??

When one thinks about it, the gall and the arrogance of Bernie's murderers are stupefying. All of them- sleek Jewish Establishment organizations and their portly leaders; the million-dollar temple-mausoleums; the temple rabbi-functionaries; the pitiful and hapless parents. All those whose yardstick was "what will the gentile say" and who proceeded to tailor their 'Judaism' to fit not the Jew but the gentile; all those spiritual schizophrenics who did not know whether they were Jews or not, fish or fowl, meat or milk; all these now point their grubby accusing fingers at Bernie and shout indignantly:

"Why are you such a bad Jew? Why are you a traitor to your people? Why can't you marry a nice Jewish girl, Iike your mother? Why do you want to marry Brigitte the shiksa?"

The hypocrisy is nauseating and amusing at the same time, but Bernie listens and finds nothing humorous in it. "Why do I want to marry Brigitte? Why not? She is good looking, polite and doesn't nag. Why do I want to marry Brigitte? Why not?

What is a nice Jewish girl like my mother? One who desecrates the Sabbath like my mother? So does Brigitte. One who eats non-kosher food like dear Mom? So does Brigitte. One who comes to synagogue three times a year to parade about it in our version of Eastern parade? Brigitte has the real thing."

Of course, what Bernie is really saying -- NO, CRYlNG OUT -- is: "Tell me someone. Why should I be a Jew? Why is it so important to be a Jew? What difference does it make? Why not knock down the barriers between religions, nations and groups once and for all? What is there to Judaism that is so unique and special that I should adhere to it faithfully and marry within my faith? Why be a Jew!!!

It is an agonizing cry from the souls of tens of thousands of young Jews who assimilate, integrate and disappear into the outer space beyond Judaism. It is THE cry, THE question. It is asked by young men and women who have seen the emptiness and the vapidness of the Judaism they grew up with. It is asked by young Jews who have seen the ugliness and the vulgarity of their empty temples and the fraud and bankruptcy of their temple rabbis. It is asked by young people whose 'Judaism' gives nothing, absolutely nothing, in terms of ideals, self-sacrifice and meaning. It comes from those who equate the 'Judaism' they know with ostentatious wealth, fat and contented leaders paying lip service to G-d and 'religion' and the reality of that religion in the form of rabbis who do not believe in the Divinity of Torah or (increasingly) in G-d and in lay people whose ignorance of anything Jewish is compensated for by Hadassah and UJA checks.

Those who murdered Bernie took a Judaism of their ancestors that was strong and powerful enough to withstand inquisitions and Crusades and pogroms and Kishinevs and Auschwitzes, big and small. It was a Judaism that lived because its adherents were ready to die for it. It was a Judaism of the zeyde who believed in G-d and proved it by observing His commandments. It was a Judaism that came from G-d and not from man. It was a Judaism whose rabbis and leaders knew Torah, not the latest best-selling book list and who did as they said, setting a supreme example for the Bernies of old who knew why Judaism was different, who never for a moment thought of Brigitte.

The murderers took this and threw it away, exchanging it for 'American Judaism,' a grotesque mixture of Myron Cohen jokes, Miami Beach, UJA checks, Hadassah membership, Jewish food and Moshe Dayan eye-patches. It was a 'Judaism' that was stripped of all non-essentials so as to lighten the burden on the long-distance Jewish swimmer through the American waters of assimilation, equality and brotherhood. It was a "Judaism" whose adherents beamed as their leaders got it down to "ethics." Ethics! As if that was the beginning and end of Judaism. As if Christians and Shintoists could not be ethical, too. As if Brigitte was necessarily less ethical than Shirley. Ethics- intoned the well-paid rabbi from his magnificently furnished pulpit. Ethics- that is Judaism. lf that's all there is, then Bernie knows that Judaism has lost any exclusive hold on him. Everyone, today, is ethical. George Meany is ethical and Nelson Rockeffeller is ethical and Rev. Moon is ethical and Prince Sihanouk is ethical and the late King Faisel was ethical, as are his un-countable sons. Is that all there is to Judaism? lf that is all there is, then stop lecturing Bernie as he marches into the sun with his ethical shiksa. Bernie wants to know what is exclusive about Judaism, what is unique, what is special, what it has that others do not. Bernie wants to know this and those who murdered him have no answers for him. The head of the B'nai Brith has no answer for him. The temple caterer has no answer for him, nor the Board Chairman, nor the Sisterhood president. The temple rabbi has no answer for him. Mother and father surely have no answer for him. All of these have no answers for him because all of these have no answers for themselves.

Judaism lives or dies on the unique fact that G-d Revealed Himself at Mount Sinai and gave the Jew a truth that no one else has. Judaism lives or dies on the fact that the Bible and the Talmud with their laws, commandments, statutes and ordinances were divinely revealed and that the only way to holiness and true goodness comes from the observance of Torah laws. This is what kept Bernie's zeyde and bubby Jewish; nothing else. This is a reason for being Jewish. This is a reason for not marrying Brigitte. All the rest is fraud and buff. Poor Bernie, victim of the worst kind of robbery - the taking of his heritage and reason for being. lf only he would realize that the 'Judaism' that he saw his entire life was anything but that. lf only he realized that he was the victim of the worst kind of spiritual swindle. How fortunate he would be. How joyous and happy and how meaningful would his life become if he rediscovered the Judaism of his ancestors that was sold on the American continent for thirty pieces of dross. Jewish is beautiful if you do not play games with it- or with yourself. lf only Bernie understood. How fortunate he would be. He could then turn in his Brigitte for a reason for being.

A reason for being Jewish.

Rabbi Meir Kahane


Offline muman613

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Re: What Make Bernie Run - by Rabbi Meir Kahane
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2011, 03:23:33 AM »
This has been republished here before, if I remember... I also remember Tzvi Fishman posting other writings of Rabbi Kahane in the past..

Actually Mr Fishman posted it on A7 back in 2009...

Check out my reposting of it from then:

http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,39678.0.html

The original link to the reposting at A7 is http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Blogs/Blog.aspx/4/57#.TsN2H7i6bWA
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 03:36:24 AM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: What Make Bernie Run - by Rabbi Meir Kahane
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2011, 06:49:51 AM »
Tzvi Fishman in his blog in Israelnationalnews.com in honor of the recent Rabbi Kahane, memorial day,  brought up an old Rabbi Kahane essay about intermarriage.
Given the fact, that even certain members of this forum need to hear and accept the rebuke of Rabbi Kahane
I thought I would also quote what he quoted:

Unlike certain members of this forum, Rabbi Kahane, z''tl, had enough intelligence and ahavat Israel to understand that you should not blame those Jews who grew up in assimilated families and who never had the chance to be taught Judaism for their intermarriage at a young age if those Jews go back to Judaism later and do their best to raise their children in a Jewish manner. Those Jews are actually the primary victims of the silent "spiritual holocaust", as Rabbi Kahane called it, that takes place through assimilation in the Galut. Instead of blaming those Jews, it is your duty to encourage them in their difficult teshuva.
As far as I'm concerned, I was born Jewish but my parents were liberal atheists and they raised me accordingly. When I met my future wife, I was only 20, so no wonder that it didn't bother me that she was not Jewish. How could I have gone back to Judaism at such an early age after having been brainwashed against Judaism by both my parents and the schools I went to ? It's easy to judge the others when you are lucky enough to have been properly guided. Not only I do not brag about my intermarriage as some people here claim I do, but I am trying hard to give my daughter what I did not receive when I was a child : Jewish culture, identity and pride. My daughter goes to Torah classes. She's very attracted to Judaism. The Rabbi at her shul told me that if she keeps studying for two years, she could even undertake a conversion process before her bat mitzva. So can somebody please explain to me what kind of crime I am committing against the Jewish people ? Do you think it's easy for me to live as a Jew on a daily basis stuck in the Galut with a non-Jewish wife ? Do people like me, who try to perpetuate Judaism in difficult circumstances that were brought upon them by the Exile, deserve to be "rebuked" as sinners ?
I am not saying this against this forum as a whole. There are a lot of good Jews on this forum who understand what I'm saying and who encourage me instead of condemning me and I seize this opportunity to thank them again.

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: What Make Bernie Run - by Rabbi Meir Kahane
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2011, 08:40:26 AM »
Kol ha kavod, rabbi kahane.  You are sorely missed. :'(
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Lisa

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Re: What Make Bernie Run - by Rabbi Meir Kahane
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2011, 09:32:03 AM »
Excellent article. 

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: What Make Bernie Run - by Rabbi Meir Kahane
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2011, 02:29:17 PM »
Unlike certain members of this forum, Rabbi Kahane, z''tl, had enough intelligence and ahavat Israel to understand that you should not blame those Jews who grew up in assimilated families and who never had the chance to be taught Judaism for their intermarriage at a young age if those Jews go back to Judaism later and do their best to raise their children in a Jewish manner.

 Don't know if you are referring to me, but what I told you was nothing close to rebuke. Why do you keep thinking that I and others are "judging" you. I said anything short of accepting assimilation and actually was very lenient in talking to you about it and suggested to email and talk to a Rav (who can further assist and guide you) Just because I didn't outright accept and show sympathy towards assimilation you are now feeling persecuted where any disagreement shown towards your points you are taking too personally and are going crazy (like a menstruating female). Seriously chill out. Take some valarian root (that calms people down and its harmless/legal).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Online Zelhar

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Re: What Make Bernie Run - by Rabbi Meir Kahane
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2011, 02:32:13 PM »
Yaakov alot of us here are sinners, or at least i am. From what i understand there are  mitigating circumstances on
heavenly court. I try to live my life in a way that i would be honestly able to plea my case before the heavenly court, if there is one.


Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: What Make Bernie Run - by Rabbi Meir Kahane
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2011, 03:18:42 PM »
you are now feeling persecuted where any disagreement shown towards your points you are taking too personally and are going crazy (like a menstruating female). Seriously chill out. Take some valarian root (that calms people down and its harmless/legal).

You want to sound like the tough guy but all you do is talk like a moron - and a vulgar one. If you want to prove you are tough, go to the battlefield, that will be more useful. I've already told you I don't need your advice, so why won't you get off my back ?

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: What Make Bernie Run - by Rabbi Meir Kahane
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2011, 03:49:47 PM »
You want to sound like the tough guy but all you do is talk like a moron - and a vulgar one. If you want to prove you are tough, go to the battlefield, that will be more useful. I've already told you I don't need your advice, so why won't you get off my back ?

 I'm not on your back. You are just putting fire on yourself when you try to "prove" yourself.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: What Make Bernie Run - by Rabbi Meir Kahane
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2011, 04:05:58 PM »
I'm not on your back. You are just putting fire on yourself when you try to "prove" yourself.

Do you understand English ?

GET - OFF - MY - BACK


Offline muman613

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Re: What Make Bernie Run - by Rabbi Meir Kahane
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2011, 04:32:20 PM »
Both of you just let this go.... Yaakov, you can ignore him... Tag, just let the issue go, don't respond any more...

I hope that eventually everyone involved will come to learn that we all {those involved in this thread} share the same goals...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: What Make Bernie Run - by Rabbi Meir Kahane
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2011, 04:59:14 PM »
Yaakov alot of us here are sinners, or at least i am. From what i understand there are  mitigating circumstances on
heavenly court. I try to live my life in a way that i would be honestly able to plea my case before the heavenly court, if there is one.

I hope you will pass. Otherwise, meet me in Hell  8;)

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: What Make Bernie Run - by Rabbi Meir Kahane
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2011, 05:05:15 PM »
Tag, just let the issue go,


 That's the thing, I wasn't/aren't "on" the issue. He keeps being bothered by anything written not even to him, its like here http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,58390.msg525337.html#msg525337
 I'm responding to someone (mord) and then he responds to me, soo I respond back with my logic and proof. After him(in my opinion) being beaten in the argument he gets defensive and brings this issue even unto himself and starts thinking and believing that others are "judging" him just because I am disagreeing. WTF seriously?
 - If he is soo concerned about people not judging him for whatever things, let him not bring it up over and over again (and NO I wasn't judging anyone not that its a crime?).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Lisa

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Re: What Make Bernie Run - by Rabbi Meir Kahane
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2011, 07:55:51 PM »
Tag, I don't think it was nice to compare Yaakov to a menstruating woman. 

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: What Make Bernie Run - by Rabbi Meir Kahane
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2011, 08:38:22 PM »
Tag, I don't think it was nice to compare Yaakov to a menstruating woman.  

 I know, but that was after all the nagging soo I wanted to let him know how he is starting to sound, perhaps he would man up. But ill try to be more "nice". Be Emet. These distractions are stupid and go off topic.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 08:43:46 PM by Tag-MahirTzedek »
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Lisa

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Re: What Make Bernie Run - by Rabbi Meir Kahane
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2011, 08:45:58 PM »
I think the two of you should ignore each other for the time being. 

Offline IsraeliGovtAreKapos

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Re: What Make Bernie Run - by Rabbi Meir Kahane
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2011, 08:48:47 PM »
Unlike certain members of this forum, Rabbi Kahane, z''tl, had enough intelligence and ahavat Israel to understand that you should not blame those Jews who grew up in assimilated families and who never had the chance to be taught Judaism for their intermarriage at a young age if those Jews go back to Judaism later and do their best to raise their children in a Jewish manner. Those Jews are actually the primary victims of the silent "spiritual holocaust", as Rabbi Kahane called it, that takes place through assimilation in the Galut. Instead of blaming those Jews, it is your duty to encourage them in their difficult teshuva.

But you didn't go back to Judaism. You're aren't only sleeping with a Gentile but you also said that to stop sinning with her is "ugly" and that you will never do such a thing. If that's not too outrageous, When coon said that he doesn't care if Israel is destroyed by Obama and prayed for my violent death, you sided with him. As if Jews and Gentiles (who are also outright Nazis) are equal for you. This all means that you don't give a f-k about Jewish loyalty which you called "tribalism" and "injustice".

Tochacha (Rebuke) is one of the most important demands that G-d has made for us. It's painful and it can't be nice. It must be firm and uncompromising just like a guy who demands his brother to stop taking drugs. You can't even listen to it? very bad. But at least don't pretend that what you're doing is Judaism.
 
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 09:06:01 PM by Fourth Philosophy »

Offline Rubystars

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Re: What Make Bernie Run - by Rabbi Meir Kahane
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2011, 08:56:15 PM »
I'm sure that the wonderful treatment he gets from his fellow Jews is really encouraging him to want to be more like them (not).

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: What Make Bernie Run - by Rabbi Meir Kahane
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2011, 09:03:15 PM »
You want to sound like the tough guy but all you do is talk like a moron - and a vulgar one. If you want to prove you are tough, go to the battlefield, that will be more useful. I've already told you I don't need your advice, so why won't you get off my back ?

Hey yaacov, that's not cool.   Clearly, you have a chip on you're shoulder thinking everyone is attacking you.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline IsraeliGovtAreKapos

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Re: What Make Bernie Run - by Rabbi Meir Kahane
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2011, 09:45:23 PM »
I hope you will pass. Otherwise, meet me in Hell  8;)

Yea, what a proof that you "got back to Judaism"...

Offline muman613

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Re: What Make Bernie Run - by Rabbi Meir Kahane
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2011, 09:46:06 PM »
But you didn't go back to Judaism. You're aren't only sleeping with a Gentile but you also said that to stop sinning with her is "ugly" and that you will never do such a thing. If that's not too outrageous, When coon said that he doesn't care if Israel is destroyed by Obama and prayed for my violent death, you sided with him. As if Jews and Gentiles (who are also outright Nazis) are equal for you. This all means that you don't give a f-k about Jewish loyalty which you called "tribalism" and "injustice".

Tochacha (Rebuke) is one of the most important demands that G-d has made for us. It's painful and it can't be nice. It must be firm and uncompromising just like a guy who demands his brother to stop taking drugs. You can't even listen to it? very bad. But at least don't pretend that what you're doing is Judaism.
 

Rebuke must be given in a manner which is loving and not attacking... This is a basic principle of Rebuke...

Also it is not permitted to commit Lashon Hara in the process of rebuking. Rebuke is supposed to be done in private...

Quote
http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/rebuke/

REBUKE YOUR FELLOW MAN IF YOU SEE HIM DOING WRONG

If you see someone doing wrong, you have to tell him. You have to tell him. You have no right to remain silent. If someone sees his
friend walking in the wrong path, it is a mitzva to talk to him, tell him he is doing wrong, but it has to be done in private. Don’t tell someone in public that he did wrong, because if you do, you are transgressing about fifteen laws.

Quote
http://www.theshmuz.com/kedoshim.html
Don’t rebuke others– it doesn’t work

This perspective is central to understanding why rebuke doesn’t work.

When Revain goes over to Shimon and “gives it to him good”, really shows just what he has done wrong, the only thing accomplished is that now Shimon also hates Reuvain.

To properly fulfill the mitzvah of Tochacha there are two absolute requirements. The first is in regards to attitude, and the second relates to method.  

What is my intention?

When I go over to my friend to chastise him, the first question I must ask myself is, “What is my intention?”

If my intention is to set him straight and stop him from doing a terrible sin, then I will almost certainly fail. The only intention that fits the role of a successful mochiah is: “This is my friend; I am concerned for his good.”

If I am looking out for Kavod Shmayaim, or if I am a do-gooder concerned for the betterment of the world, then my words will accomplish the exact opposite of their intended purpose. I won’t succeed in separating my friend from the sin; I will only succeed in separating him from me. The first requirement for the proper fulfillment of Tochacha is that it must be out of love and concern for my friend.
.
.
.
Out of concern and love

The reality is that this is a very difficult mitzvah to perform correctly. Typically, we find ourselves either not wanting to get involved or saying things that cause more harm than good. If the driving force in doing this mitzvah is concern for the good of our friends, and we carefully study human nature and choose our words guardedly, HASHEM will help us to perform this Mitzvah properly.

Quote
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1558371/jewish/How-Should-I-Rebuke-Him.htm

There is a G‑d-given commandment, “You shall surely rebuke your fellow.”1 However, whenever we want to rebuke someone else, we must always first ask ourselves the following questions:

*    Have I already tried to judge the person favorably? Could there perhaps be some circumstance I am unaware of?

*    Is the desire to rebuke coming from the right place? Is it only about fixing a problem, or is there a personal agenda here?

*    Am I saying these words simply to “to get my point across” and fill my need to protest, or might my words actually be effective?

*    Are the words being said out of love? Out of true concern? Will the other person look at it this way?

*    What words will have the greatest chance of achieving that aim? Imagine yourself in the other person’s situation. What words would speak to you? Often it isn’t sources or preaching that speak to a person, but rather the respectful manner in which the concern is explained.

*    Am I the best person to bring up the issue, or is there someone else who could say the same thing and likely accomplish more?

*    Is now the time to rebuke, or is there another time and place where this has a better chance of working?2

Once these conditions are met, one will be able to find the best way to respectfully bring up the issue in question.

Quote
http://www.ou.org/torah/article/mitzvah239

We see from all this that if one properly rebukes others, he can avoid all sorts of trouble!

The underlying rationale for this mitzvah is to make peace. If one acts out in public but is gently corrected in private, the two parties can reconcile. If one keeps the rebuke inside, it will just build up into resentment and hatred.

It is only a mitzvah to try to correct someone when we think the other person might listen. If a person knows that the rebuke will be ignored, he should keep it to himself. Proverbs 9:8 tells us, “Don’t rebuke a scoffer; he’ll only hate you for it. But if you rebuke a wise person, he’ll love you for it.” (See Talmud Yevamos 65b.) Of course, when our own behavior is corrected, we should strive to act like wise people and appreciate the intervention!

This mitzvah applies in all times and places. It is discussed in the Talmud in tractate Brachos on page 31a, in tractate Shabbos on 54b-55a, and elsewhere. It is codified in the Mishneh Torah in the sixth chapter of Hilchos Deos. This mitzvah is #205 of the 248 positive mitzvos in the Rambam’s Sefer HaMitzvos#72 of the 77 positive mitzvos that can be fulfilled today as listed in the Chofetz Chaim’s Sefer HaMitzvos HaKatzar.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 09:51:12 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: What Make Bernie Run - by Rabbi Meir Kahane
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2011, 09:52:38 PM »
Rebuke must be given in a manner which is loving and not attacking... This is a basic principle of Rebuke...

Also it is not permitted to commit Lashon Hara in the process of rebuking. Rebuke is supposed to be done in private...


 What is lashon Hara, you cant just throw that word around always in anything you disagree with.
 About private- yes you are correct that if one Jew sees another doing wrong they should take him/her aside and explain what is wrong. BUT this is not when it is continually in public (like here), and by the way I dont really see any strong rebuke. At least I didn't say anything that would or should get another nervous or tick. I suggested that these things NOT be posted in public and to deal with it in private with a competent Rav. BUT I do understand where someone would respond to another posting something on and on explaining their sins. What should others do? Agree to it? That is the only other option left to do.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: What Make Bernie Run - by Rabbi Meir Kahane
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2011, 09:54:05 PM »
What is lashon Hara, you cant just throw that word around always in anything you disagree with.
 About private- yes you are correct that if one Jew sees another doing wrong they should take him/her aside and explain what is wrong. BUT this is not when it is continually in public (like here), and by the way I dont really see any strong rebuke. At least I didn't say anything that would or should get another nervous or tick. I suggested that these things NOT be posted in public and to deal with it in private with a competent Rav. BUT I do understand where someone would respond to another posting something on and on explaining their sins. What should others do? Agree to it? That is the only other option left to do.

By Lashon Hara I mean speaking disrespectfully of a fellow Jew in public... This is what Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach was referring to in the quote I quoted in my post

Quote
http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/rebuke/

REBUKE YOUR FELLOW MAN IF YOU SEE HIM DOING WRONG

If you see someone doing wrong, you have to tell him. You have to tell him. You have no right to remain silent. If someone sees his
friend walking in the wrong path, it is a mitzva to talk to him, tell him he is doing wrong, but it has to be done in private. Don’t tell someone in public that he did wrong, because if you do, you are transgressing about fifteen laws.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: What Make Bernie Run - by Rabbi Meir Kahane
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2011, 09:55:02 PM »
http://www.torah.org/learning/halashon/chapter10.html

7.Rebuke the transgressor first

Next we will clarify what we wrote under the third condition in paragraph 2, that the witness must first rebuke the transgressor before speaking L"H about the incident or situation.

This applies in general, but if the witness knows the individual will not listen to his words and will not accept his rebuke, he does not need to rebuke him.

However, the speaker must be careful to speak in front of at least three people. If he were to speak to only one or two people, it would appear as if he does not want what he says to get back to the subject, that he wants to flatter the subject and deceive him, and insult him in secret. It would also appear that the speaker was enjoying telling the Lashon Hara. In addition, the listeners would be suspicious of the speaker and say that the information is untrue and that the speaker is deceiving them, for otherwise he would first discuss the issue with the subject directly. If this would happen, his Lashon Hara would not achieve any constructive purpose as stipulated in paragraph 4.

Therefore, one must speak this L"H publicly - before three individuals - for this is considered equivalent to speaking in front of the subject, and the listeners will not suspect him, because an "adam kasher" (generally law-abiding individual) does not speak complete lies to a large group.

Nonetheless, the listeners are forbidden to accept the L"H and allow the subject to be disgraced in their eyes. As we explained in chapter 6, even if the information isn't absolutely false, there may be extenuating circumstances or an unknown detail which sheds an entirely different light on the matter. Therefore, it is forbidden for them to conclude that the information indicates something negative against the subject, yet they may listen to it so that they may investigate it further and if it is true then rebuke the subject and he might heed their words, as well as the other constructive purposes discussed above in paragraph 4.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: What Make Bernie Run - by Rabbi Meir Kahane
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2011, 02:52:57 AM »
Hey yaacov, that's not cool.   Clearly, you have a chip on you're shoulder thinking everyone is attacking you.

You are not being fair. Not that it matters much, I can live with that and that does not change the fact that you do a very good job as a moderator of this forum, but since you insist, I have to point it out to you.
In this thread, I have raised important questions that a lot of Jews are faced with as a result of assimilation and life in the Exile. The points I have raised are all related to Rabbi Kahane's text given by the initial poster. Instead of debating what I said, Tag Mahir made yet another personal judgement on me and he tried once more to ridicule me in a vulgar manner by portraying me as some kind of hysterical "menstruating woman". Do you think THAT is "cool", to use your own word ? Am I delusional to consider myself attacked ? Really ? And have you looked at Ron's new vicious comment more or less equating my wife with a kurva ("You're aren't only sleeping with a Gentile but you also said that to stop sinning with her is "ugly", those were his words) ? You are absolutely entitled to support Ron and Tag if that's the way you think, but please let me respond. Because it has nothing to do with me as a person. It has to do with principles I stand for and I have the courage to defend against the tide.