If you want to see Islam humiliated

[muman613]

You do understand the definition of "realistic", right?

"Realistic" means what can be expected to happen under a normal situation, under the laws of nature. The 1967 victory of Israel over the Arabs was about as unrealistic as you can get. That is how we know it's a miracle. Do you really think the IDF of that era, which numbered something like 20,000 trained front-line soldiers tops, truly defeated five combined Arab nations with the most modern Soviet equipment, training, and advisors by its own might?

We are not allowed to expect miracles, rely on them, or demand them. That is central to Judaism, Noahidism, and Christianity. We can ask for them humbly while simultaneously working as hard as we can but if we expect or demand them to happen, that is really mocking G-d. So to that end I'll not just agree with Hot Spot, but state that without G-d's intervention, 5 million Jews defeating 2 billion Muslims isn't just unrealistic, but impossible.

Indeed, and it was 'impossible' for Sarah to conceive Yitzak... Period...

http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/bonchek/archives/vayigash68.htm

The Ramban takes strong issue with Ibn Ezra. He says thinking that such miracle could happen and not be mentioned in the Torah is a big mistake. The Torah (and life), says the Rambanm is an unending series of quiet miracles. Not all miracles are openly mentioned in the Torah. Sara's miracle was mentioned for several reasons; 1) It was forecasted by G-d's promise to Abraham; 2) Sara had stopped have "the way of woman' so biologically it was impossible for her to conceive; 3) Abraham was 100 years old, this doubled the miracle.

If you don't understand what I mean by putting a limitation on Hashem you should consider what you are doing by saying it is 'a dream' or 'not realistic' for this to happen. Sure under natural conditions it seems hopeless. But is the answer to give up hope? No, our faith and trust in Hashem is stronger than that.

You have some points there but you are missing the point I am making. We should not say that things are impossible to happen which Hashem himself promised us are not impossible, if we merit them. As we have seen in much of Tanakh that Hashem will assist the Jewish people.

I am not arguing with you. I have simply stated that it is wrong to disregard the promise of Hashem, to stand with the Jewish nation when the other nations are trying to destroy us, this promise will always be fulfilled. Will we suffer and will we take loses? Yes, this is the nature of a war of obligation.

Do not attempt to state that my opinion is that we should rely on miracles. We should have faith in the promise of the redemption...

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Another thing about NES- Nes is translated as a "miracle". But the root is banner. Something out of the ordinary is a NES. The 1967 was was a NES definitely. BUT that NES came about through toughness, preparedness, brains, Will and strength on the part of the Jews. With all of this, G-D made the timing exact as well and the fact that the missions were successful. Their are many inside things that were made by G-D. Even the fact that Jews received the "brains" and Bolls to carry such missions is from G-D as well. BUT lets never confuse the issues. Lets follow in the footsteps of King Dawidh Alav Hashalom who prayed to G-D and who prepared for war with training, with the best weapons available for him and with confidence that G-D is with him. "Even though I walk through the darkest valley,
I fear no evil;for you are with me;" is his proclamation.

[Dr. Dan]

Muman is 100% right.  The IDF won in 6 days with Gd's help.  Everything that righteous people do that leads to success is with Gd's help.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Muman is 100% right.  The IDF won in 6 days with Gd's help.  Everything that righteous people do that leads to success is with Gd's help.

 Chazal try to minimize "miracles" as much as possible. It is the general rule. G-D created the Universe and created the system within the universe based on Laws. Their are laws of the Torah that obligate Jews to do and not do certain things. Their are laws for the nations (7 Noahide laws, general morality). Their are laws of animals and plants and all created beings (including "survival of the fittest"). Within the laws of the Torah their are laws of War and Peace and how to deal with enemies, friends, and neutrals.
 As far as making "Tishuva" is concerned, YES we must make Tishuva. BUT the Hiddush of Rav Kahane ZTKL HYD, also his son Rav Benyamin Kahane ZTKL HYD, is what type of Tishuvah do we need?
 Their are sins and consequences. The fact that their is arab terror is a consequence of the sins of surrendering land and being "nice" to the enemy, (also letting them stay on the land). That's just it. Read Rav Benyamin's commentary on Rosh Hashana and Tishuva. People are yelling "we need to make Tishuva" and pointing at the terror. Rav Benyamin said YES, we MUST make Tishuva, but in the issue of the terror its not kosher or Shabbous (Although YES these have MAJOR consequences as well, both in this life and the next) that will save us, its the teachings and implementation of "the Jewish idea" that will. Everything is cause and effect.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Also to add what I said above- being more observant does weaken the enemy in a number of ways as well. Overall the reason why Israel belongs to the Jews is G-D. The enemy can and does say (as an excuse) see how can you claim that the land is yours if you yourself aren't Observant?
 Also the Torah and Mitzwoth generally create a better human being and a more disciplined one as well.
 The only problem I see is when some people say and claim that keeping Shabbous, kosher, learning Towrah will someone (through its own directly) affect the battle. I saw all of these things indirectly affect things, but only when used properly. For example learning Torah will (when learned properly without your own predisposed leftist flaws) install "nationalism", love of Israel and understanding of G-D's mission for the Jewish nation. also the fact that all of Israel belongs to the Jewish nation. BUT when one wants to claim to learn Torah (AS AN EXCUSE) against whats needed to be done properly for example fighting G-D's battles, etc. It becomes something dangerous and really kooky. That is not the original idea and ideal of the Torah. Or else people like King Dawid would have to run into battle with books and not swords. (Lehavdil like Eran- which got all those boys killed).

[muman613]

Also to add what I said above- being more observant does weaken the enemy in a number of ways as well. Overall the reason why Israel belongs to the Jews is G-D. The enemy can and does say (as an excuse) see how can you claim that the land is yours if you yourself aren't Observant?
 Also the Torah and Mitzwoth generally create a better human being and a more disciplined one as well.
 The only problem I see is when some people say and claim that keeping Shabbous, kosher, learning Towrah will someone (through its own directly) affect the battle. I saw all of these things indirectly affect things, but only when used properly. For example learning Torah will (when learned properly without your own predisposed leftist flaws) install "nationalism", love of Israel and understanding of G-D's mission for the Jewish nation. also the fact that all of Israel belongs to the Jewish nation. BUT when one wants to claim to learn Torah (AS AN EXCUSE) against whats needed to be done properly for example fighting G-D's battles, etc. It becomes something dangerous and really kooky. That is not the original idea and ideal of the Torah. Or else people like King Dawid would have to run into battle with books and not swords. (Lehavdil like Eran- which got all those boys killed).

When the Jewish people keep their part of the covenant then Hashem will certainly keep his. All this talk of Miracles is irrelevant. Nature is no less miraculous than an unnatural miracle. Hashem created nature so that it will benefit the Jewish people. This is why the water which parted in the Sea of Reeds was made from the 1st day of creation with the purpose of splitting when the Jewish people became trapped at the sea. Chazal teach that every component of every miracle which happens was created with the intention of revealing Hashems providence.

Do not rely on miracles, but be strong in the knowledge that through study of Torah, doing the mitzvot, saying blessings, and doing kindnesses that Hashem will strengthen us, and the Jewish people.

http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/bonchek/archives/vayigash68.htm

RAMBAN ARGUES WITH IBN EZRA

The Ramban takes strong issue with Ibn Ezra. He says thinking that such miracle could happen and not be mentioned in the Torah is a big mistake. The Torah (and life), says the Rambanm is an unending series of quiet miracles. Not all miracles are openly mentioned in the Torah. Sara's miracle was mentioned for several reasons; 1) It was forecasted by G-d's promise to Abraham; 2) Sara had stopped have "the way of woman' so biologically it was impossible for her to conceive; 3) Abraham was 100 years old, this doubled the miracle.

The Ramban brings other examples in Tanach where events are based on miracles and never the less the Scriptures do not "announce" them as miracles. He says in this refutation he has "poured hot gold down the throat of the Ibn Ezra!

It is important to note that the Ramban himself will argue with the sages' viewpoint at times. But his main point here was that our life is suffused with miracles, ordinary existence is full of unnatural happenings - and we should be aware of this. This is for the Ramban a basic element in Jewish belief. Denying it, denies G-d's constant involvement in this world.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Muman I don't read all your posts (not your, but what you copy/paste from other sites), but my point and issues to what you said last "When the Jewish people keep their part of the covenant then Hashem will certainly keep his. " and "Do not rely on miracles, but be strong in the knowledge that through study of Torah, doing the mitzvot, saying blessings, and doing kindnesses that Hashem will strengthen us, and the Jewish people."
  Is exactly what Rav Kahane (and son) fought against soo to speak. Its an attitude and idea that some are espousing that if only we pray harder, if only we learn one more chapter on Mishna or Talmudh that our enemies and our problems will go away or just that Moshiah will suddenly come once the Mitzwah tank (metaphorically speaking) is full. Their is a serious problem with this.

[muman613]

Muman I don't read all your posts (not your, but what you copy/paste from other sites), but my point and issues to what you said last "When the Jewish people keep their part of the covenant then Hashem will certainly keep his. " and "Do not rely on miracles, but be strong in the knowledge that through study of Torah, doing the mitzvot, saying blessings, and doing kindnesses that Hashem will strengthen us, and the Jewish people."
  Is exactly what Rav Kahane (and son) fought against soo to speak. Its an attitude and idea that some are espousing that if only we pray harder, if only we learn one more chapter on Mishna or Talmudh that our enemies and our problems will go away or just that Moshiah will suddenly come once the Mitzwah tank (metaphorically speaking) is full. Their is a serious problem with this.

Im sorry you have a problem with it. There is nothing wrong with placing your trust in Hashem. I know that it works and there is nothing which you can say which will decrease my faith in Hashem, and his promise to the Jewish people.

There is nothing to be ashamed about being faithful in Hashem. A man who has emunah can achieve just about anything he puts his energy into. Blind faith is not what I am talking about. Hashem has given us the abilities which we need in order to achieve the goals which his Torah gives us. I am very surprised you are speaking in the name of Rabbi Kahane, that they stood against the study of Torah as a means of strengthening the Jewish people.

I watch Rabbi Kahanes speeches almost every day. The Rabbi was very clear that Jews must observe the Torah, that they need to strengthen their emunah through observance of Mitzvot. You claim that you have the writings of Rabbi Kahane, so show us where he says that Torah and Mitzvot are not keys to the survival of the Jewish people?

I feel that you are attempting to paint faith and trust in Hashem in a negative light. Think about what you are saying... I will show you that might and strength alone do not make a successful army...

Basically I think you are completely missing the point when you make a humorous statement like this:

if only we learn one more chapter on Mishna or Talmudh that our enemies and our problems will go away

Nowhere did I say this, and yet you sneak this ridiculous idea into your attack on my approach.... I have said several times that we need to have a strong and capable military which will be able to annihilate the enemy. Currently Israel does have such an army, with military weapons which dwarf the enemies abilities.... But what we need are Jews in power who will use them in order to achieve the goals that Hashem has for the Jewish people.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I think you are not understanding me, and i know I don't understand you as well. I in no way are telling you or anyone to "decrease your Emuna". My point is what is Emuna and what is not and many times in the world it is presented at opposite.
 About Rav Kahane's writings (I include the son as well) check the essay in the Dara Shel Torah of Rav Benyamin Kahane ZTL HYD  page 7 titled "What kind of Tshuva Do We need? "
 a little part of it
  "Obviously the Tshuva we see today is a positive thing that must be encouraged, but it is far from adequate. We must strive for a different kind of tshuva-one that is much more comprehensive and far-reaching."  

[muman613]

I think you are not understanding me, and i know I don't understand you as well. I in no way are telling you or anyone to "decrease your Emuna". My point is what is Emuna and what is not and many times in the world it is presented at opposite.
 About Rav Kahane's writings (I include the son as well) check the essay in the Dara Shel Torah of Rav Benyamin Kahane ZTL HYD  page 7 titled "What kind of Tshuva Do We need? "
 a little part of it
  "Obviously the Tshuva we see today is a positive thing that must be encouraged, but it is far from adequate. We must strive for a different kind of tshuva-one that is much more comprehensive and far-reaching."  

I see...

I have always been of the opinion that we must work to strengthen our military through rigorous training and investment in technology. Israel has many intelligent engineers who should be put to work developing the next level of weaponry in order to ensure Jewish survival in the land. Here is one of the posts I made on this thread where I stated this belief:

<snip>

I am comforted to know that Israel possesses some of the greatest wisdom, knowledge, and technology in the art of warfare. If only we can overcome this fear of the 'public opinion' of the world and place our trust in Hashem then we will be unbeatable. So many times, on a personal level, I have faced down opponents and defeated them when I place my trust in Hashem. I am always grateful to the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob for the livelihood which he has granted me and my family.

I think we agree.... I agree that the next level of Teshuva would be for all of us to stand up, make aliyah, and stand up against the nations which seek our destruction... That would be the 'different kind' of Teshuva Rabbi Binyamin Kahane seemed to be talking about...

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Muman is 100% right.  The IDF won in 6 days with Gd's help.  Everything that righteous people do that leads to success is with Gd's help.

That's what I said all along.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Also I'll tell of of a personal example- their are people (yes even Rabbis) - I very much respect and everything, but when we debate some of these issues things like this is said-
 We need to trust Hash-m. Who do you think is fighting our wars, the army or Hash-m? You don't know how much us learning Torah right now is helping Jews across the globe. etc.
 I answer (in these topics) we need to fight against Jew haters. The solution to fighting Hamas is to whip them out.
 (common/typical) Response- (either) common that not right, (or once this is also defeated and proven wrong) - Common Israel can't do that to the Arabs just look at what the world says when Israel bombs just 1 target, or- but America will go against Israel. Or Israel will be condemned in the U.N.
  - the question and answer is where is the EMUNA? The proper Emuna in the proper time? When it comes to Israel and fighting we are suddenly told that we need Emuna and not guns. When it comes to the nations condemning Israel and things like that all of a sudden we need to "be practical" and by practical they mean to give in (which is suicide!) .
 Soo faith and trust are extremely important. Its just how this and everything lately in this generation is upside down and distorted.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I think we agree...

 We do. I was trying to point out though how others usually say similar things, but mean differently (as seen when furthus discussing such topics with them).

[muman613]

To me, my personal Teshuva, involves recognizing that Hashem has created enemies in this world. The Torah has taught me that since the beginning of the Jewish people there has been hatred of those who follow Hashems commandments. Either through jealousy or plain hatred they have oppressed us, killed us, tried to convert us, and they mocked us. The enemy is very real to the Jew, and the psalms of David HaMelech are full of descriptions of the enemy.

While Chassidus teaches that in some occasions the 'enemy' is really the yetzer hara, the force within us which drives us to do wrong. But other times the 'enemy' is clearly an external force which seeks to kill the Jewish people. We indeed have two enemies, the enemy within and the enemy without. It is wise for a Jewish man to work on his character traits through the study of Torah, since it will strengthen him in faith and trust, and he will know what he is obligated to do and not do. It is said that Torah study is the antidote to the yetzer hara, and I do believe this to be true {to an extent}...

But Torah study, as was stated before, also does bring us to believe that the Jewish peoples mission in this world is a struggle. That we are obligated to keep our side of the bargain {to keep the commandments} in order to be able to merit the blessings which are enumerated in the Torah. And alongside those very blessings we find the very curses which Hashem brings against his own people. When I recite the Shema prayer and concentrate on the words while saying 'And it will come to pass that if you continually hearken to My commandments that I command you today, to love Hashem, your G-d, and to serve Him, with all your heart and with all your soul - then I will provide rain for your land in its proper time, the early rain  and late rains, that you may gather your grain, your wine, and your oil..." I think about how important it is to trust in Hashem.

The Torah is truth, so say the sages... Thus we must study Torah to strengthen ourselves, thus strengthening our brothers and sisters, and our friends and neighbors, and we strengthen our Jewish community... One leads to the next.

Again I realize everyones experience is different. May we all achieve the level of emunah we need in order to achieve our lifes goals.

[muman613]

Also I'll tell of of a personal example- their are people (yes even Rabbis) - I very much respect and everything, but when we debate some of these issues things like this is said-
 We need to trust Hash-m. Who do you think is fighting our wars, the army or Hash-m? You don't know how much us learning Torah right now is helping Jews across the globe. etc.
 I answer (in these topics) we need to fight against Jew haters. The solution to fighting Hamas is to whip them out.
 (common/typical) Response- (either) common that not right, (or once this is also defeated and proven wrong) - Common Israel can't do that to the Arabs just look at what the world says when Israel bombs just 1 target, or- but America will go against Israel. Or Israel will be condemned in the U.N.
  - the question and answer is where is the EMUNA? The proper Emuna in the proper time? When it comes to Israel and fighting we are suddenly told that we need Emuna and not guns. When it comes to the nations condemning Israel and things like that all of a sudden we need to "be practical" and by practical they mean to give in (which is suicide!) .
 Soo faith and trust are extremely important. Its just how this and everything lately in this generation is upside down and distorted.

Either I am witnessing miracles, or I am just lucky. The small Jewish community I am involved with has shifted more to the right over the years I have davened with them. I regularly bring up Rabbi Kahane and most people will have good things to say about him. Also concerning the security situation in Israel... Last High Holidays I brought it up at the Rosh Hashana dinner table and everyone at the table shared my opinion that Israel should not give up any land, and that Obama was dead wrong on his 1967 borders statements...

I feel that WE can change the Jews around us if we approach them in the proper way...

[Dr. Dan]

Remember that after the 1967 war the idf thought they were invincible and didn't attribute their win as a miracle.  So 1973 yin Kippur war happened.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Remember that after the 1967 war the idf thought they were invincible and didn't attribute their win as a miracle.  So 1973 yin Kippur war happened.

Good point

[muman613]

Good point

Axl Rose, Really? I would not have thought...

I vaguely remember liking that band...