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Offline IsraeliGovtAreKapos

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Wedding rings? not for Jews
« on: November 30, 2011, 04:49:57 PM »
In Judaism, there's no such thing as a wedding ring for men. It's forbbiden becasue of two reasons: men are forbbiden to use a woman's jewelry/dressing (Deuteronomy 22:5) and because Jews are forbidden to follow the customs/laws of the Gentiles (Leviticus 18:3), and as we know, a wedding ring for men is a pure Xtian custom.

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Wedding rings? not for Jews
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2011, 05:02:38 PM »
I'm sorry I disagree with your interpretation here.  First when a marriage is taking place a man needs to give a woman something and woman needs to give a man something..and that something is simple piece of jewelry usually a plain colored ring of some value.

Secondly, monogamy in marriage is a Christian thing..therefore should Jews be polygamists like the Muslims?

I wear my wedding ring and I wear it with pride.  It also keeps the single women from hitting on me...which is a good thing.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

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Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Wedding rings? not for Jews
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2011, 05:13:07 PM »
I'm sorry I disagree with your interpretation here.  First when a marriage is taking place a man needs to give a 1)woman something and woman needs to give a man something..and that something is simple piece of jewelry usually a plain colored ring of some value.

2) Secondly, monogamy in marriage is a Christian thing..therefore should Jews be polygamists like the Muslims?

 I wear my wedding ring and I wear it with pride.  It also keeps the single women from hitting on me...which is a good thing.

1) A man needs to give a women something, a women does not give anything to the man.
2) Yes, polygamy is not a problem in Torah Judaism. (was trying to find the shiur on Polygamy that I heard by Rav Bar Haim Shlitta).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Wedding rings? not for Jews
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2011, 05:18:23 PM »
I'm sorry I disagree with your interpretation here.  First when a marriage is taking place a man needs to give a woman something and woman needs to give a man something..and that something is simple piece of jewelry usually a plain colored ring of some value.

Secondly, monogamy in marriage is a Christian thing..therefore should Jews be polygamists like the Muslims?

I wear my wedding ring and I wear it with pride.  It also keeps the single women from hitting on me...which is a good thing.

The Torah allows a man to marry multiple wives. This is evidences through our Patriarchs, for example Jacob who had two wives (Leah and Rachel)... Today we do not allow a man to marry multiple wives for reasons of keeping the customs of the land we are exiled in, but when Moshiach comes we believe that the Halacha will be upheld as it was...

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/770990/jewish/Why-does-Torah-law-allow-polygamy.htm

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/558598/jewish/Does-Jewish-law-forbid-polygamy.htm

Quote
Approximately 1000 years ago, the noted German scholar, Rabbi Gershom "the Light of the Diaspora," banned polygamy.1 This ban was accepted as law by all Ashkenazi Jews but was not recognized by Sephardic and Yemenite communities.

Practically speaking, polygamy is almost non-existent today even amongst Sephardic Jews, due to the fact that the overwhelming majority of them live in societies where polygamy is not legally and/or socially acceptable.

A number of reasons are given for Rabbi Gershom's ban:

    * It was instituted to prevent people from taking advantage of their wives.2
    * It was intended to avoid potential infighting between rival-wives.3
    * Rabbi Gershom was concerned lest the husband be unable to provide properly for all his wives (especially during the difficult times of Exile).4
    * There is a concern that a man may marry two wives in different locations, which may lead to forbidden relationships between offspring.5
    * The ban is intended to avoid the inherent rivalry and hatred between rival wives, which may also lead to the transgression of a number of biblical violations.6
    * It has been suggested that it was adopted from Christian practice and laws, to avoid Christian attacks against Jews who act otherwise.7 This argument, however, has been assailed by many other Halachic authorities.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Zelhar

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Re: Wedding rings? not for Jews
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2011, 05:23:27 PM »
I think many religious, and charedim for sure, don't wear wedding ring. Ĥowever if the groom wants to wear one, then the rabbi allo2s for the exchange to take place during the cermony. 

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Wedding rings? not for Jews
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2011, 07:01:39 PM »
Dr. Dan- Here is the shiur on a man marrying more then 1 wife, found it. It talks about it from the beginning.
  http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-audio-shiurim/41-audiohalakha/469-do-rabbinic-courts-follow-jewish-law
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Wedding rings? not for Jews
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2011, 08:29:33 PM »
A man's wedding ring is not feminine jewelry it's man's jewelry.

Offline muman613

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Re: Wedding rings? not for Jews
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2011, 08:41:15 PM »
A man's wedding ring is not feminine jewelry it's man's jewelry.

You have a point:

Quote
http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/eng/?id=4850

Question:
Is it permissible for men to wear Jewelry? Such as a necklace with a Mezuzah or Magen David?

If not, why?


Answer:

It is permitted for men to wear men’s jewelry in a place where the custom is that men wear jewelry, but it is prohibited for men to wear jewelry in a place where the custom is that only women wear jewelry because of the Torah prohibition "…neither shall a man put on a woman's garment" (Deuteronomy 22, 5).
[שבת סב. רמב"ם הלכות עבודה זרה פרק יב הלכה י, שו"ע יו"ד סימן קפב סעיף ה].
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Wedding rings? not for Jews
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2011, 08:50:38 PM »
My wife who happens to have more Torah knowledge than me verified the ring issue.

Irregardless, it makes her happy also that I wear it.  And i'm proud of wearing it.

As far as multiple wives in the world to come.. Me personally, I would never want to share my soul with multiple women..only my wife.

And there is no doubt in my mind yaacov and avraham were uncomfortable having multiple wives...but it was what it was.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Wedding rings? not for Jews
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2011, 08:55:10 PM »

As far as multiple wives in the world to come.. Me personally, I would never want to share my soul with multiple women..only my wife.

And there is no doubt in my mind yaacov and avraham were uncomfortable having multiple wives...but it was what it was.

Why world to come? This is not something forbidden even today.
 If you don't want more wives that's your choice, but we were discussing if its forbidden or not. (Or even somethingt to look down upon).

 ???  What do you mean uncomfortable? They had them, they had the choice didn't they? (And by the way the issue with them is different since it was before the Torah, but either way after the Torah the law is the same, the only difference is Yaakov married sisters which was before the Torah was given thus not forbidden for them).
 With all due respect this is western non-Jewish thinking.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Wedding rings? not for Jews
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2011, 09:02:03 PM »
Why world to come? This is not something forbidden even today.
 If you don't want more wives that's your choice, but we were discussing if its forbidden or not. (Or even somethingt to look down upon).

 ???  What do you mean uncomfortable? They had them, they had the choice didn't they? (And by the way the issue with them is different since it was before the Torah, but either way after the Torah the law is the same, the only difference is Yaakov married sisters which was before the Torah was given thus not forbidden for them).
 With all due respect this is western non-Jewish thinking.

I think that having two or more wives is problematic. Women today are very needy and often get jealous easily. I know that a woman scorned can cause phenomenal problems. When I was younger I had several friends who were women and in every case there was jealousy involved. When I married my wife was incredibly jealous of any women who I came in contact with... Thus I believe that while it is permitted, it is something which one should contemplate the negatives before even thinking about it...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Wedding rings? not for Jews
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2011, 09:16:15 PM »
I think that having two or more wives is problematic. Women today are very needy and often get jealous easily. I know that a woman scorned can cause phenomenal problems. When I was younger I had several friends who were women and in every case there was jealousy involved. When I married my wife was incredibly jealous of any women who I came in contact with... Thus I believe that while it is permitted, it is something which one should contemplate the negatives before even thinking about it...



 This is not about the self soo much as about populating the Jewish nation and making it grow especially with the declining numbers due to assimilation.
  Halacha is not about our or the women's personal feelings. And marrying more then 1 wife is not something to frown upon. It is Halacha, allowed or not? The answer is allowed. Now if you personally do not want to- you fulfill the Mitzwah with 1 wife, but you can and others at least should be able to if they are willing and able to. Also in some situations (like the death of a childless brother) their are more Mitzwoth involved. Just listen to the Shiur (the beginning of it) it discusses this. The other parts discuss also very interesting things and about power in Israel.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Wedding rings? not for Jews
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2011, 09:56:03 PM »
This is not about the self soo much as about populating the Jewish nation and making it grow especially with the declining numbers due to assimilation.
  Halacha is not about our or the women's personal feelings. And marrying more then 1 wife is not something to frown upon. It is Halacha, allowed or not? The answer is allowed. Now if you personally do not want to- you fulfill the Mitzwah with 1 wife, but you can and others at least should be able to if they are willing and able to. Also in some situations (like the death of a childless brother) their are more Mitzwoth involved. Just listen to the Shiur (the beginning of it) it discusses this. The other parts discuss also very interesting things and about power in Israel.

I understand the halachas involved. But even the sages recommend against more than one wife...

There is even the command which refers to two wives, one loved and one hated...

http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/fleisher/archives/kisetze62.htm

Quote
http://rabbibuchwald.njop.org/2001/08/27/kee-teitzei-5761-2001/

The Torah portion that teaches us of the special privileges accorded to the first born son begins with the expression (Deuteronomy 21:15), “Ki te’hee’yeh’nah l’ish sh’tay nah’shim, ha’ah’chat ah’hu’vah v’ha’ah’chat s’nu’ah.” If a man has two wives, one loved and the other hated….he may not make the son of the loved one the first born, before the son of the hated, who is the first born. The commentaries point out that the terms “loved” and “hated” are relative terms, that really connote that one wife is preferred over the other. The Midrash Tanaim on Deuteronomy 21:15, cites Rabbi Ishmael who said, “Human experience shows that in every bigamist marriage, one wife is always more loved than the other.”

So what, after all, is the Torah’s view on multiple wives? The Torah clearly frowns on polygamist relationships. Perhaps the clearest indication that the Torah strongly opposes a man having more than one wife is the statement in Leviticus 18:18, “V’ish’ah el ah’cho’tah loh ti’kach, l’tzror…” A man is prohibited from taking as a wife two sisters who will be enemies to one another. Samuel 1:6, relates that the prophet Samuel’s father, Elkanah, had two wives, Hannah and P’ninah. Scripture there says that P’ninah was a tzarah to Hannah, a source of great pain. The verse clearly calls the second wife nothing less than a “great pain.” That, in fact, may very well be the source of the Yiddish expression, tzuros. It all emanates from a man having more than one wife.

In every single instance in scripture where a man has more than one wife, the man has his hands full. So it is with Abraham–Sara and Hagar, and so it is with Jacob–Rachel and Leah. While the Torah did permit a king to have numerous wives for political and perhaps mercenary reasons, it also restricts the number of wives that he may have. Deuteronomy 17:17: “V’lo yar’beh lo nah’shim.” According to Jewish tradition a king is permitted to have up to 18 wives. The Bible tells us that King Solomon, the wisest man of all, violated this rule and his many wives led him astray, resulting in great strife in his life.

Conceptually, it makes sense why the Torah permitted a man to have more than one wife, but forbade a woman from having more than one husband. Every child, after all, is entitled to know who both his biological mother and father are. If a woman had more than one husband it would never be clear who was the actual biological father. Yet, if a man were to have more than one wife it would still be clear who are the biological mother and the biological father.

What remains unclear is why the Torah permitted multiple wives at all. We may speculate on a number of reasons. Perhaps because men are always sexually available, while women, who menstruate, are not. Perhaps because of the Talmudic dictum (Yebamoth 118b) that a woman prefers to live a life of grief, than to live alone. Whatever the rationale, it is clear that the Torah does not regard having multiple wives as a very healthy structure for family. Perhaps that is why on the heels of our portion dealing with strife in the family, comes the portion of the Ben Sorer U’moreh, the wayward and rebellious child. Polygamy, the bible suggests, affects the children–-strongly and negatively.
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You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Wedding rings? not for Jews
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2011, 10:02:26 PM »
Another outlook:



http://www.torahweb.org/torah/2006/parsha/rwil_vayetse.html

Love and Hate

I

    Yaakov loved Rachel even more than Leah…Hashem saw that Leah was hated (Braishis 29:30,31). Although Yaakov loved Leah, she is called hated, since Yaakov loved Rachel more (Ramban)

The Torah allows men to marry more than one wife, however, it is considered shameful unless the first wife is barren (Psikta Rabbosi 43, Meiri Yevamos 65b, Avos D'Rabbi Nassan 2). Rabbeinu Gershom prohibited polygamy a thousand years ago, and his ruling is now universally accepted.

Nonetheless, the lesson of the Ramban remains critical. A married woman must feel that her husband loves her more than anyone or anything else. The obligation to honor one's wife more than oneself (Yevamos 62b) includes one's interests and preoccupations as well. A wife must respect her husband's schedule, but if she finds it necessary to interrupt him, he must respond with concentration and empathy. Otherwise, she may feel hated, loved less than his other pursuits.

"One must love one's wife as he loves himself" (ibid). "One who is lovesick thinks about his beloved always, when he is sitting, standing, eating or drinking. His mind is never removed from his love of her" (Rambam, Hil. Teshuva 10:3). Just as one is always concerned about himself, so should he be lovingly mindful of his wife.

II

Even more so should the love of Hashem be in the heart of those who love Him. They think of this love always, as He has commanded, "with all your heart and with all your soul" (Devarim 6:5). This is Shlomo's metaphor, "I am sick with love" (Shir Hashirim 2:5) and all of Shir Hashirim is a metaphor for this (Rambam ibid.)

Unfortunately, we have not always lived up to the Rambam's standard of ahavas Hashem. For example, we said, "Because of Hashem's hatred for us He took us out of the land of Egypt, to deliver us into the hand of the Emori to destroy us" (Devarim 1:27).  "He loved you, but you hated Him, as the popular saying says, ‘that which is in your heart about your friend is what you think is in his heart about you'" (Rashi). We call this phenomenon projection. Yet it seems incomprehensible that Bnei Yisroel would hate Hashem, even during the sin of the spies.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Wedding rings? not for Jews
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2011, 10:16:57 PM »
"The Torah clearly frowns on polygamist relationships."
  NOT True. This is discussed by the sages and what is said is that better 3 than 2. Soo in fact its more rather then less. The decree (if you want to call it that) by Rabbenu Gershon was up till 1200 something. And some then said perhaps 1,000 years, guess what the 1,000 years were are up and it was accepted only by Askenasim. The Yaavetz says that it was perhaps because of non-Jews who were jealous and to give them less of a reason to persecute Jews in Europe. Their are TORAH commandments involved and what will you tell a brother that is married and his brother passed away childless to divorce his first wife in order to marry her?
   Look at the Sefardic and especially the Teimani marriages. Before they came to the "modern" state of Israel many were married to multiple wives. They were all relatively happy. Divorce was unheard of. "modern" "in-lighted" western culture only brought divorce, prostitution, cheating and aids. Is that the culture to look up to? Of-course this is just part of taking away the galut mentality of a nation. But definitely the Torah way is much better. I highly recommend listening to the shiur.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Wedding rings? not for Jews
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2011, 10:55:57 PM »
The sages have forbidden it.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline White Israelite

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Re: Wedding rings? not for Jews
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2011, 11:18:20 PM »
Actually wedding rings come from the pagan practice of the Egyptians

The wedding ring, that most famous and instantly recognizable symbol of the
(hopefully perpetual) joining of a man and a woman as husband and wife in the
institution of marriage, has a long, wide spread and mysterious history. Its
beginnings lie in the deserts of North Africa, where the ancient Egyptian
civilization sprang up along the fertile flood plains of the river Nile. This
river was bringer of all fortune and life to the Pharaoh’s people and from
plants growing on its’ banks were the first wedding rings fashioned. Sedges,
rushes and reeds, growing alongside the well-known papyrus were twisted and
braided into rings for fingers and larger bracelets for wrists.

The ring is of course a circle and this was the symbol of eternity for the
Egyptians as well as many other ancient cultures. It had no beginning and no
end, like time. It returned to itself, like life; and the shape was worshipped
in the form of the Sun and the Moon. The hole in the center of the ring is not
just space either; it is important in its own right as the symbol of the
gateway, or door; leading to things and events both known and unknown.

It is not difficult therefore, to see how the ring and the gift of a ring
began to be associated with love, in the hope that this most worthy of emotions
could take on the characteristics of the circle and capture eternity.

They wore it like we do today, on the third finger of the left hand, because
of a belief that the vein of that finger directly traveled from the heart. This
legend was later taken up by the Greeks, when they conquered Egypt under the
generalship of Alexander the Great in 332 B.C. and from them passed onto the
Romans, who called this the ‘vena amoris’, which is Latin for ‘the vein of
love’.

These early rings usually lasted about a single year before wear and tear
took their inevitable toll. Hemp was probably the first choice, but some decided
that they wanted a longer lasting material, and opted for leather, bone or ivory
to craft their token of love.

The Art of Metallurgy Takes Over

When in later years, the arts of metallurgy became known this naturally took
over, but surprisingly only very gradually. These early metal rings were often
quite clumsily made and uneven in the extreme, so for wedding gifts they had
precious and semi-precious stones set into them and these can be seen
represented by hieroglyphs in Egyptian tombs. At this time Jewellery was usually
more for show than sentiment and used to express wealth. Before coinage gold
rings were used for currency and often hidden away until the owners were
actively trading.

In early Rome it was iron that was adopted as the metal of choice rather than
copper or brass as mostly elsewhere. This symbolized the strength of love a man
felt for his chosen woman, though rust was a problem.

The act of giving and acceptance of the ring was now also considered to be
legally binding and therefore enforceable. This tied the woman as the property
of the man to some views but in truth also protected her rights as bride-to-be,
and was summoned upon to prevent her from having her primary position usurped by
rivals.

Gold or silver rings were given on occasions, to show all the bridegroom
trusted his betrothed with his valuable property, and to symbolize this further,
the ring was sometimes shaped as a key rather than a normal circular band. This
was not presented at the wedding ceremony as the custom nowadays, but when he
carried her in his arms across the threshold of her new home.

After coinage gold was rapidly promoted to first choice and later in
medieval Europe gemstones were again a common addition. With rubies chosen for
their color of red like a heart, sapphires, blue like the sky above, or most
valued and sought after of all; the indestructible diamond.

In renaissance Italy silver made a comeback, and was now selected for the new
idea of the engagement, or betrothal ring. These were often highly ornate and
usually inlaid with niello, (which is a very decorative form of enamel
engraving, colored in black to stand in contrast to the bright metal) on a round
or oval bezel. And rather than traditional simple bands, they had clasping hands
emerging from the hoop at the front.

Silver became more pre-eminent briefly in the seventeenth century in England
and France when they were widely used for wedding rings at the height of the
fashion for poesy, or posy rings; this comes from the word ‘poesy’ meaning a
‘love poem’. They were sentimentally inscribed with such, around the wedding rings,
either within or without, and often faith and hope were included in the verse as
well. These were highly popular indeed, as frequent referrals to them in the
works of Shakespeare prove. Gold however, began to take over again later, and
pushed back silver to the Italian idea of engagement again, with a golden
duplicate of the original replacing it on the wedding day.
Bad Luck if it's Not Made of Gold

Indeed, it was thought in Irish folklore to be bad luck or even illegal to be
married with a ring made of anything but gold. But this was never so in
actuality and, like elsewhere many different metals were used. A gold ring
though, was often provided for weddings throughout Europe for those who could
not afford one, (and immediately reclaimed afterwards).

Other world superstitions include the absolutely essential point of making
sure the ring is a perfect fit, for woe betides the future of the marriage if it
isn’t. A too-tight ring might point to painful jealousy or the stifling of one
party by the other. Too loose, and a parting of the ways through careless acts
or forgetfulness is indicated as a future danger to watch for.

The Church of England holds no brook with this however, and does not concern
itself with the size or material of the ring so long as it is there. An irony,
and a change of heart for sure, as the early Protestant puritans claimed that
wedding rings were pagan and not to be used by the Godly. They were further
enraged on the subject by a Catholic legend that Joseph and Mary had used one
constructed either of onyx or amethyst; and that various churches in Europe had
throughout history claimed to hold the ring (which was capable of performing
miracles) to attract pilgrims to their vicinity to spend money and hence
increase the wealth of the competing abbeys.

Today, almost all Christians accept the wedding ring, (a notable exception to
this being the Quakers), doubtlessly helped by the christianization of the old
vena amoris tale. Whereby in middle ages England, the bridegroom would slip the
ring part way up and then down his bride’s thumb, then first and middle finger,
reciting: ‘In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost’ as he touched
each one before fixing it in place on the next finger in line; the third finger
of the left hand.
Why the Left Hand?

Well, in some parts of continental Europe it is and always
has been the right. There doesn’t seem to be any particular reason that the
Christians should have mostly kept this the same as the original. But one
thought is; as the man, facing his bride, reaches straight out with his right
hand (most people are right handed) he naturally touches her left. As she does
his, as now, with more and more men wearing one also, when the rings are
exchanged.

This is a modern practice begun mostly during the second world war, a
consequence of increased numbers of men being separated from their loved ones
and seeking a cheering reminder. This almost happened earlier in history, with
the advent of the gemmal ring, alternatively spelled gimmal or gimmel. This was
two or three decidedly ornamental links, usually with hands and hearts or knots,
fastened together by a hinge, or interlocking like the Olympic rings, and being
capable of joining into one. At betrothal, they would be separated, with one
given to the woman, one kept by her lover, and if present, the third held by a
witness until the wedding day when all would be reunited and henceforth kept by
the bride.

Back to fingers though, and the thumb briefly challenged the accepted norm in Elizabethan days as fashionable ladies deemed to wear their wedding rings there, but this did not last and so today it is as it was in the beginning, just like a circle really, or a ring.

http://www.thehistoryof.net/history-of-the-wedding-ring.html


As much as people have changed the meaning today, originally it did come from paganism.

Offline briann

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Re: Wedding rings? not for Jews
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2011, 11:19:57 PM »
This is rediculous.

Just because something was first done by a non-jew doesnt mean Jews cant do it.  Does this mean that we can't wear pants because Germanic Pagans were the originators of wearing pants?

For those of you who are interested in this:

http://www.weddingringorigins.com/

It was the ancient Egyptian who established the custom of placing a ring on the finger of his wife, as a sign that he had confidence in her ability to care for his house. The Greek and Roman bridegroom often gave a ring to the bride's father-a practice that was probably a survival of primitive bride purchase. In the second century B. C., the Roman bride was presented with a gold ring. But this she wore only in public. Such a ring was much too precious to wear while tending to household duties; and so the groom gave the bride a second ring - for use in the home - which was usually made of iron and had little knobs in the form of a key. Of course, these "key" rings were weak and could open only those locks requiring very little force to turn, but their significance, in that the wearer had the right to seal up the giver's possessions, was strong.

Probably the most imposing ring of all time was that used at the Hebrew wedding. This curious ring was shaped like the roof of a Jewish temple, and was so large and clumsy that it could not be worn in the ordinary manner. Many times it was the property of the synagogue and was borrowed for the event, for it was needed during only a portion of the ritual and was then removed. It has even been said that these huge, elaborate rings were used to hold myrtle branches at weddings.

It was not until about 860 that the Christians used the ring in marriage ceremonies




Offline briann

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Re: Wedding rings? not for Jews
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2011, 11:20:44 PM »
Actually wedding rings come from the pagan practice of the Egyptians

The wedding ring, that most famous and instantly recognizable symbol of the
(hopefully perpetual) joining of a man and a woman as husband and wife in the
institution of marriage, has a long, wide spread and mysterious history. Its
beginnings lie in the deserts of North Africa, where the ancient Egyptian
civilization sprang up along the fertile flood plains of the river Nile. This
river was bringer of all fortune and life to the Pharaoh’s people and from
plants growing on its’ banks were the first wedding rings fashioned. Sedges,
rushes and reeds, growing alongside the well-known papyrus were twisted and
braided into rings for fingers and larger bracelets for wrists.

The ring is of course a circle and this was the symbol of eternity for the
Egyptians as well as many other ancient cultures. It had no beginning and no
end, like time. It returned to itself, like life; and the shape was worshipped
in the form of the Sun and the Moon. The hole in the center of the ring is not
just space either; it is important in its own right as the symbol of the
gateway, or door; leading to things and events both known and unknown.

It is not difficult therefore, to see how the ring and the gift of a ring
began to be associated with love, in the hope that this most worthy of emotions
could take on the characteristics of the circle and capture eternity.

They wore it like we do today, on the third finger of the left hand, because
of a belief that the vein of that finger directly traveled from the heart. This
legend was later taken up by the Greeks, when they conquered Egypt under the
generalship of Alexander the Great in 332 B.C. and from them passed onto the
Romans, who called this the ‘vena amoris’, which is Latin for ‘the vein of
love’.

These early rings usually lasted about a single year before wear and tear
took their inevitable toll. Hemp was probably the first choice, but some decided
that they wanted a longer lasting material, and opted for leather, bone or ivory
to craft their token of love.

http://www.thehistoryof.net/history-of-the-wedding-ring.html


As much as people have changed the meaning today, originally it did come from paganism.

wow, you beat me to it by a minute.  :::D

Offline muman613

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Re: Wedding rings? not for Jews
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2011, 11:38:04 PM »
"The Torah clearly frowns on polygamist relationships."
  NOT True. This is discussed by the sages and what is said is that better 3 than 2. Soo in fact its more rather then less. The decree (if you want to call it that) by Rabbenu Gershon was up till 1200 something. And some then said perhaps 1,000 years, guess what the 1,000 years were are up and it was accepted only by Askenasim. The Yaavetz says that it was perhaps because of non-Jews who were jealous and to give them less of a reason to persecute Jews in Europe. Their are TORAH commandments involved and what will you tell a brother that is married and his brother passed away childless to divorce his first wife in order to marry her?
   Look at the Sefardic and especially the Teimani marriages. Before they came to the "modern" state of Israel many were married to multiple wives. They were all relatively happy. Divorce was unheard of. "modern" "in-lighted" western culture only brought divorce, prostitution, cheating and aids. Is that the culture to look up to? Of-course this is just part of taking away the galut mentality of a nation. But definitely the Torah way is much better. I highly recommend listening to the shiur.

You ignore the teachings concerning the 'Hated Wife' and its proximity to the command of the rebellious son. I have presented several reasons which the sages consider polygamy less than ideal.

Please provide a source for your claim 'better 3 than 2'... I cannot find any mention of this...

Another anti-polygamy wisdom is from Pirkie Avot (sorry I found this on a page about Maharal) , Chapter 2, Mishnah 8, part 3...

http://roshhashanah.torah.org/learning/maharal/p2m8part3.html

He (Hillel) used to say: A surplus of meat causes an increase in worms. A surplus of possessions causes an increase in worry. A surplus of wives causes an increase in "keshafim" (witchcraft). A surplus of maidservants causes an increase in promiscuity. A surplus of slaves causes an increase in thievery. A surplus of Torah causes an increase in life. A surplus of "yeshiva" (sitting together with peers studying Torah) increases wisdom. A surplus of "eitzah" (seeking advice and insights from more experienced people) increases understanding. A surplus of charity increases peace. One who acquires a good name acquires it for himself; one who acquires words of Torah for himself has acquired the World to Come for himself.

Quote
http://roshhashanah.torah.org/learning/maharal/p2m8part2.html

The proper order for a person's relationship with the physical world is to first acquire possessions and then to build a home. (See Rambam Ch. 5, Deioth, Halacha 11) For this reason the lesson on possessions is followed with a lesson about the foundation of the home, his wife. We are taught that a surplus of wives causes an increase in "keshafim" (witchcraft). The power of "kishuf" is more developed and prevalent among women due to their greater connection to the tangible and physical dimensions of world, as well as to their more developed sense of imagination, both of which are needed to activate the power of "kishuf."

(It is difficult for us today to know exactly what the power of "kishuf" is, but it was clearly a real force. There is a prohibition in the Torah of being involved in it, in Shemoth 22:17; and there is discussion about it in Sanhedrin 67a-b. From the Gemara and commentaries, it seems that kishuf relates to the interference with the desired relationship between the forces of the upper world and their proper influence on the physical world, enabling the material world to function with a dimension of independence from the upper world. It is for this reason that for "kishuf" to work, the person doing it must be rooted on the earth, as is implied in Rashi in Sanhedrin (44b, "d'bayah").

(Just as the Maharal made clear in the previous lessons, a "surplus of wives" is not referring to a literal count of a person's actual wives, but rather a representative lesson about a man's relationship to his wife (or in the time of the Torah and Talmud, to his wives). A person who shows a predilection for many women ("marbeh") seems to be responding to the collective "mystique" of Womankind, rather than to the unique individuality of a woman with whom he can create a true partnership of accomplishment. The nature of womankind is to be more connected to and rooted in nature and the physical world. Some manifestations of this would be their tendency towards the practical rather than the theoretical; their connection of their bodies to the rhythms of time and forces of life.

This has nothing to do with Galut mentality... Although multiple wives are permitted, it is not suggested. There are many things which are permitted {such as drinking wine} but excess is prohibited...

Also I don't understand why you keep on referring to Yibbum when talking about polygamy. Please elaborate how Yibbum has anything to do with this?

Quote
http://www.torah.org/learning/halacha-overview/chapter24.html


24. Levirate Marriage and Chalitzah - Yibbum ve-Chalitzah

If a man dies childless his oldest brother (on the father's side) is commanded to marry his wife (even though ordinarily marrying a brother's wife is incest), as it says "If brothers live together and one of them dies and has no child the dead man's wife shall not marry an outsider; her brother-in-law shall take her for his wife".1 In principle the brother need not betroth her since she is automatically his, but the sages instituted betrothal in such cases. Once he has married her she is like his wife in all respects.a

If they do not want to marry they must perform the ceremony of chalitzah, as it says "And if the man does not want to take his sister-in-law she shall go up to the elders... and pull his shoe off his foot (chalitzah)... and say `Thus shall be done to the man who will not build his brother's house'".2 Afterwards she is like his divorced wife.b Until they marry or perform chalitzah she is forbidden to marry anyone else, as it says "The dead man's wife shall not marry an outsider".l,c

Sources:

1. Deut. 25:5; see Lev. 18:16   a. 1:1,15; 2:1,6
2. Deut. 25:7-9   b. 1:2,13; 2:10
c. 2:18


see also http://www.torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter2-8.html
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 11:59:30 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Wedding rings? not for Jews
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2011, 11:52:07 PM »
http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-1110/levirate-marriage-yibbum/?p=1110

Levirate Marriage Today

If Levirate marriage conflicts with the law of the land, eg laws of prohibited affinities for marriage, do (Orthodox) rabbis still solemnise Levirate marriages? If not, when did they stop doing so, and under whose decision?

To my knowledge, Levirate marriage, or “Yibum”, never came into conflict with modern laws, simply because the alternate practice of “chalitzah”, which frees the man and woman without marriage, took precedence.

The Mishnah in Bechoros 13a reads: the Mitzvah of Yibum takes precedence over the Mitzvah of Chalitzah—at first, when they were thinking properly about the Mitzvah. Now, when they are not thinking properly about the Mitzvah, the Mitzvah of Chalitzah takes precedence over the Mitzvah of Yibum.

Abba Shaul says in Yevamos 39b (an entire tractate devoted to Levirite marriage), “someone who brings in his Yevama (the woman previously married to his deceased brother) for her beauty, to have a wife, or for any other purpose, is as if he violated an immoral relationship, and in my eyes the child is close to being a mamzer (a product of a forbidden relationship, e.g. incest).”

While others disputed this opinion, the universal custom has long been to perform chalitzah instead of Yibum. You can read more about this here. I hope this has answered your question!
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Wedding rings? not for Jews
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2011, 12:37:14 AM »
The sages have forbidden it.

That's not true.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Wedding rings? not for Jews
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2011, 12:38:04 AM »
This is rediculous.

Just because something was first done by a non-jew doesnt mean Jews cant do it.  Does this mean that we can't wear pants because Germanic Pagans were the originators of wearing pants?



Yes, indeed.  We should wear tunics.     ;D

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Wedding rings? not for Jews
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2011, 12:40:26 AM »
Seriously, how did Yibum get into this thread? 

In any case, I knew some haredi guys in mattesdorf and some of them did not wear the wedding ring, but some of them did, from what I remember.

Back in ancient times, men and women both wore gold jewelry if I'm not mistaken.  Especially things like arm bands, etc.   Or was that just the women?   My memory is getting hazy.

Offline muman613

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Re: Wedding rings? not for Jews
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2011, 12:48:33 AM »
Seriously, how did Yibum get into this thread?  

In any case, I knew some haredi guys in mattesdorf and some of them did not wear the wedding ring, but some of them did, from what I remember.

Back in ancient times, men and women both wore gold jewelry if I'm not mistaken.  Especially things like arm bands, etc.   Or was that just the women?   My memory is getting hazy.

This may interest you:



Ch. 32, v. 2: "Porku nizmei hazohov asher b'oznei n'sheichem B'NEICHEM uvnoseichem" - From the word "b'neichem" we see that wearing earrings was in vogue for males in the desert. Did they also wear nose rings, as we find by Rivkoh, "nezem zohov" (Breishis 24:22)? This is obviously a nose ring and not an earring, as he only gave her one. (I take the liberty to assume that girls didn't wear only one earring.) It seems that men don't wear nose rings, as per Pirkei d'Rebbi Eliezer chapter #14. It says that the reason women wear nose rings is that nose rings are a sign of permanent slavery to men as a result of Chavoh's bringing Odom to sin. Just as an indentured slave has his ear lobe bored through as a sign that he is indentured (Shmos 21:6), so too, women wear nose rings, which go through a hole in the nostrils, to show that they serve men.



http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/fleisher/archives/kisisa63.htm



And this:

http://ohr.edu/ask/ask056.htm


Dear Jonathan and Susie,

The Torah says "Male clothing shall not be on a woman and a man shall not wear a feminine garment." The halachic authorities explain that this prohibition is designed to prevent members of the opposite sex from dressing alike in order to mingle without being recognized; all this for the purpose of improper sexual behavior.

As for earrings, though, this reason doesn't seem to apply. A man wearing all men's clothing will be easily recognized as male even with an earring. The poskim rule, however, that it would be forbidden to wear an article exclusively associated with the opposite sex even if it doesn't disguise the wearer.

The real question is: Are earrings "exclusively" associated with the opposite sex? Aren't there men who also wear earrings? The definition of what constitutes a male or female garment becomes blurred when clothing is generally worn by one gender, but is also worn by some members of the opposite gender. I asked Rav Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg, shlita, about this issue. Although he doesn't recommend that men wear earrings, he said that it would be halachically permitted to do so, since some men do wear them.

As for women wearing pants, the same would seem to apply, provided the pants were not designed exclusively for men. But there is another problem -- that the design of pants might be considered immodest for women. Wearing a skirt over the pants, however, would seem to take care of this problem. Rabbi Scheinberg, shlita, said that it is permitted for a woman to wear slacks that are designed for both men and women (i.e., sweat pants) if she wears a knee-length skirt over them.

Speaking of fashion, I'm reminded of the guy who showed up for work one morning wearing two different shoes; the right one black and the left one white. Taking a good look at him, his boss said,

"Your shoes! They...they're..."

"Beautiful, aren't they?" the employee said proudly.

"I have another pair at home exactly like them."

Sources:

Devarim 22:5.
Shulchan Aruch - Yoreh De'ah 182 and commentaries.
Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef - Yabi' ah Omer vol. 6.

Earring Follow-up:

Last week we wrote that it would be permitted for a man to wear an earring: Since some men wear them, they are not considered exclusively "women's" clothing. It should be noted, however, that this is only if the earring has no forbidden symbolism in the society in which the earring is worn. If the earring indicates that the wearer belongs to a group whose behavior is forbidden by the Torah, then it would be forbidden to wear.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 12:55:50 AM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14