Poverty!!!

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I would like people's thoughts and possible ideas of a very serious issue in Israel. That is poverty. Not only of adults but poverty and hunger affecting kids.
 I know their are many anti-socialists here (as am I), but on the other hand this is a real problem affecting not only the kids themselves but ultimately society as a whole ( for example when they grow up, they are less likely be to better soldiers since eating very little affects the way people grow, think, and perform in all areas).  
 - Charity of course is a must. But what about where it is not enough?
 - I was also thinking about the tons of food that Israel and many nations are throwing out daily (which is a socialist measure), couldn't or shouldn't the government at the very least take that food that they pay to destroy and give it to hungry Jews? And if they are soo afraid that the prices would drop (and if its truly free market why should it be a problem) why not hand it out to places like in schools, hospitals or even food drives to the truly needy?
 - baal tashchit (that's destruction of property, and especially food) is a very serious issue in Torah and I remember reading about it in a number of places. This is where you get like the Talmudh says "the vinyards will wield their fruit,but wine will be costly" and other things (even directly addressing sinners who destroy food- maybe someone will find it before me and post it)
  What are your takes on these issues?

[muman613]

 - baal tashchit (that's destruction of property, and especially food) is a very serious issue in Torah and I remember reading about it in a number of places. This is where you get like the Talmudh says "the vinyards will wield their fruit,but wine will be costly" and other things (even directly addressing sinners who destroy food- maybe someone will find it before me and post it)

I have not heard that this part of Talmud refers specifically to wasting food. I have heard it explained as general inflation of the cost of goods. This is part of the description of the period called 'The Birthpangs of Moshiach'.

Let me see if I can find what I have read about this before and provide the section of the Talmud which contains this...

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I have not heard that this part of Talmud refers specifically to wasting food. I have heard it explained as general inflation of the cost of goods. This is part of the description of the period called 'The Birthpangs of Moshiach'.

Let me see if I can find what I have read about this before and provide the section of the Talmud which contains this...

 Please try to sum things up if possible. Usually very long quotes from others (at least I don't read too much).

[muman613]

Sanhedrin 98 says:

http://halakhah.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_98.html

R. Abba also said: There can be no more manifest [sign of] redemption than this: viz., what is said, But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel, for they are at hand to come.5  R. Eleazar said: Than this too, as it is written, For before these days there was no hire for man, nor any hire for beast; neither was there any peace to him that went out or came in because of the affliction.6  What is meant by, 'neither was there any peace to him that went out or came in because of the affliction?' — Rab said: Even for scholars, who are promised peace,7  as it is written, Great peace have they which love thy law,8  'There [shall] be no peace on account of the affliction.' Samuel said, 'Until all prices are equal.'9


9) This is a difficult passage. Rashi explains it as meaning either that the prices of all commodities, e.g., wheat, wine, oil etc. shall be alike, or that all commodities shall be equally dear. But it is difficult to see how this explains' neither was there any peace etc. Maharsha therefore connects this verse 'to him that went out or came in' with Ezek. XLVI, 9: But when the people of the land shall come before the Lord in the solemn feasts, he that entereth in by the way of the north gate to worship shall go out by the way of the south gate; and he that entereth by the way of the south gate shall go forth by the way of the north gate … Accordingly he interprets: until all gates are alike, i.e., all people, whether entering or leaving the Temple — an idiom denoting 'without exception' — will suffer.


If this is not what you were talking about I apologize...

PS: Actually what you said was from Sanhedrin 97:

It has been taught, R. Nehemiah said: in the generation of Messiah's coming impudence will increase, esteem be perverted,24  the vine yield its fruit, yet shall wine be dear,25  and the Kingdom will be converted to heresy26  with none to rebuke them. This supports R. Isaac, who said: The son of David will not come until the whole world is converted to the belief of the heretics. Raba said: What verse [proves this]? it is all turned white: he is clean.27

25) Everyone will be drunk, so that in spite of the abundant yield, there will be a scarcity.
27) Lev. XIII, 13. This refers to leprosy: a white swelling is a symptom of uncleanliness; nevertheless, if the whole skin is so affected, it is declared clean. So here too; when all are heretics, it is a sign that the world is about to be purified by the advent of Messiah.

[muman613]

Regarding poverty in general, and poverty amongst the Jewish people...

I do my best to help the hungry Jews in Israel by giving to a number of charity organizations. I help the hungry locally by giving to hungry people who ask me.

We will never remove poverty from the world.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Muman- I think removing poverty at least from the Jewish nation is very much possible. What I said earlier about at least removing the socialist policy of destroying food, would greatly help people. Think about it, why literally destroy tons of foods when you can use that same food and give it to a poor Jewish child? This should possibly be a position of JTF and Kahanists and this in itself would be a great policy in itself + get a lot of support from poor, hungry people. This is not socialism in fact its getting rid of the socialist policy of food destruction.
 And even about charity, I do not know much about it in detail (besides that we must give), but that its not only as individuals, but even (from the little that I know) that the Torah government even enforced such policy to the individual that did not give out of his own free will ( I believe this is mentioned in Rav Kahane's book - Or Harayon). Tzedaka is Tzedek, meaning Justice. (Obviously not what is today "social justice", and even Rav Kahane was for free markets, but their should and is a balance).

[muman613]

Muman- I think removing poverty at least from the Jewish nation is very much possible. What I said earlier about at least removing the socialist policy of destroying food, would greatly help people. Think about it, why literally destroy tons of foods when you can use that same food and give it to a poor Jewish child? This should possibly be a position of JTF and Kahanists and this in itself would be a great policy in itself + get a lot of support from poor, hungry people. This is not socialism in fact its getting rid of the socialist policy of food destruction.
 And even about charity, I do not know much about it in detail (besides that we must give), but that its not only as individuals, but even (from the little that I know) that the Torah government even enforced such policy to the individual that did not give out of his own free will ( I believe this is mentioned in Rav Kahane's book - Or Harayon). Tzedaka is Tzedek, meaning Justice. (Obviously not what is today "social justice", and even Rav Kahane was for free markets, but their should and is a balance).

There is a difference between Tzedakah and Maaser (Tithes)... Today we try to give money which would be in the right percentage (10%) to tzedakah since we don't have a Temple, nor Levites or Kohenim. I believe that the sanhedrin can force a person to give Maaser but I was not aware that Tzedakah was obligatory.

http://www.torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter3-8b.html

"Rabbi Elazar of Bartosa said, give Him from His own, for you and your possessions are His. And so regarding King David does the verse state, 'For everything is from You, and from Your hands have we given to You' (I Chronicles 29:14)."

Pirkie Avot Ch 3, Mishna 8b

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Regarding the mitzvah (obligation) of tithing our crops, the Torah commands us: "You shall surely tithe all the produce of your seed which your field puts forth every year" (Deuteronomy 14:22). The Talmud (Ta'anis 9a) notes the double language: "You shall *surely* tithe." (The literal translation is "tithe, you shall tithe," but most English translators paraphrase this as "surely tithe.") The Sages, based on this and on the similarity between the words tithe ("asair") and wealth ("oshair"), infer the hidden meaning of the text: "Tithe so that you will become wealthy." Thus, being more charitable, rather than draining our resources, is our ticket to financial success.

And the Torah promises further. In the Book of Malachi G-d exhorts the people: "'Bring all the tithes to the storehouse [of the Temple]... and test Me in this' says the L-rd of hosts, 'if I will not open for you the doors of the heavens and pour out to you blessing without limit'" (Malachi 3:10). G-d again promises us that if we are charitable He will reward us -- without limit.

But the verse goes further. G-d says we can test Him in this. Try it out! Give more charity and see the results: does G-d deliver on His promise? And I leave this as an exercise for the reader... ;-) But in all seriousness, if we want a little dose of belief in G-d, a little strengthening of our faith, if we'd like to see G-d at work up close in our lives, all we have to do is give more charity -- and take note of the results. (Oh, and while we're at it, Torah.org is always short of funds... ;-)

http://www.torah.org/learning/business-ethics/bo.html

One expression of these two mitsvot is maser Kesafim, the financial tithe that is an obligation, separate from the charity levied by the community. . There are some authorities who see this as an extension of the tithing of fruits, produce and livestock, commanded by the Torah. Others see it only as an age-old custom adopted by Ashkenazi Jews and therefore obligatory on their descendants. Irrespective, it has become the common practice today, throughout the Jewish world.(Teshuvot Chatam Sofer, Yoreh Deah,231)

All income is subject to maaser, irrespective of its source. This even includes windfall profits like gifts, inheritances or lottery winnings, refers to such income after expenses incurred in creating or earning that income, are deducted. This income is the after tax income. However since Social Security payments are in effect savings or investment they cannot be deducted. In the same way, not all expenses recognized by the income tax authorities as tax deductible expenses are acceptable for determining the maser liability. For example travel expenses incurred in earning income cannot be of the most expensive nature- first class air fare or 5 star hotels. Since these are at the expense of the poor, one is required to limit oneself to more modest traveling (Rabbi M. Sternbuch, Am HaTorah, vol 2, number 5). The same could apply to perks enjoyed by the executive officers and owners, even where they are accepted by the tax authorities (Bet Din Shel Shlomo,Yoreh Deah, section 1). There exist maser forms and the book, “Maaser Kesafim” by Domb and Homberger that assist one in determining what is liable to maaser. The sages of the Mishnah and the Talmud were keenly aware of the subterfuges that people used in order to escape the giving away of wealth that they had earned, as demanded by the obligation to tithe. It is important to remember that human nature wasn’t different from ours today.

[Dr. Dan]

Whether you are rich or poor, give to Tzedaka everyday..even if it is some loose change.  Be an example for your friends and family or any total stranger.

If you see a poor person begging for money, try and ask if they are hungry and get them a sandwich. 

[maelgwyn]

wIn the 1930s my father used to que up at a soup kitchen in Manchester, otherwise the family would have starved !