Disputes between ultra-orthodox and secular Jews more frequent in Beit Shemesh

[Circus Boy]

BBC News  Middle East
26 December 2011 Last updated at 19:17 ET
 
Beit Shemesh ultra-orthodox Jews clash with police

Disputes between ultra-orthodox and secular Jews have been becoming more frequent
 
Ultra-orthodox Jews have clashed with police in the Israeli town of Beit Shemesh, near Jerusalem.

One police officer was slightly hurt and a number of Orthodox Jews detained, say reports.

The town has become a focus of friction between secular Jews and ultra-Orthodox men demanding strict gender segregation and "modest" dress for women.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu vowed on Sunday to end attempts to enforce segregation of the sexes.

The latest clashes came as police attempted to remove one of several signs in the town ordering segregation between the sexes.

Some 300 ultra-Orthodox residents pelted the police with stones and eggs, slightly injuring one officer, and rubbish bins were set on fire.

A television crew attempting to film in the town were also surrounded and harassed - the second alleged attack in two days on journalists.

On Sunday, a crew from Channel 2 news were attacked as they were filming, say reports, with rocks allegedly thrown at their van.

The alleged assault came days after Channel 2 aired a story about an eight-year-old American girl, Naama Margolese, who said she was afraid to walk to school because ultra-orthodox men shouted at her.

The broadcast has inflamed secular opinion, with activists planning to hold a rally in Beit Shemesh on Tuesday to counter what they say is intimidation by sections of the ultra-orthodox community.


The case of Naama Margolese has shocked many Israelis
Some ultra-orthodox Jews will also reportedly be joining the rally in an effort to distance themselves from "extremists".

Unnamed ultra-orthodox activists from Beit Shemesh issued a statement condemning the violence, but also accusing the media of initiating "deliberate provocations in order to make the peaceful, quiet and tolerant residents, who live their lives according to their beliefs, look bad".

Such clashes have become more frequent in Israel in recent years as the authorities have challenged efforts by ultra-Orthodox Jews to segregate women in public places.

Other recent points of contention include demands for separate seating areas for women on buses and a recent case of some soldiers who refused to remain at a performance by female singers.

Mr Netanyahu has ordered a crackdown on segregation, saying harassment and discrimination have no place in a liberal democracy.

Ultra-orthodox Jews make up 10% of the population in Israel. The community has a high birth rate and is growing rapidly.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16335603
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4166659,00.html

Can anybody who is well versed in the situation explain it?

[muman613]

We have been discussing the issue of the 'extremists' in a couple of threads:

This thread has digressed from the original topic { thanks to me }

http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,59000.0.html

[Rubystars]

This was a very unflattering article on MSNBC, I don't know whether it's just propaganda or if they are really harassing Jewish girls which don't follow their ultra strict guidelines:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45794260/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Unless they are absolute Nazi monsters like Muslims, the Satmar, or replacement-theologians, I am inclined to side with religious people over secular every single time regardless of what the facts are. We keep hearing all this outcry over how terrible these orthodox Jews are being to average women/girls but you never hear about how the Russian Gentile stormtroopers employed by the Israeli government to bash heads in at protests rape Israeli girls.

[Circus Boy]

Unless they are absolute Nazi monsters like Muslims, the Satmar, or replacement-theologians, I am inclined to side with religious people over secular every single time regardless of what the facts are. We keep hearing all this outcry over how terrible these orthodox Jews are being to average women/girls but you never hear about how the Russian Gentile stormtroopers employed by the Israeli government to bash heads in at protests rape Israeli girls.

You left out Neturei Karta!!

[muman613]

You left out Neturei Karta!!

Actually Satmar is the parent sect of Neturei Karta..

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Actually Satmar is the parent sect of Neturei Karta..

 Not sure if exactly (at least not what NK claims) but those thugs in Beit Shemesh are actually worse than Satmar. While Satmar for the most part are passively anti-zionists, they are actively fighting Jews in the way they can (spitting, cursing, intimidation of the community at large).

[muman613]

Not sure if exactly (at least not what NK claims) but those thugs in Beit Shemesh are actually worse than Satmar. While Satmar for the most part are passively anti-zionists, they are actively fighting Jews in the way they can (spitting, cursing, intimidation of the community at large).

I stand corrected... They are confused because they both are anti-zionist...

according to the wiki page:

It is this role that Neturei Karta see themselves as fulfilling by defending what they believe is "the position of the Torah and authentic unadulterated Judaism."[6] Neturei Karta is sometimes confused with Satmar, due to both being anti-Zionist. They are separate groups and have had disagreements.

For the most part, the members of Neturei Karta are descended from Hungarian Jews who settled in Jerusalem's Old City in the early nineteenth century, and from Lithuanian Jews who were students of the Gaon of Vilna (known as Perushim), who had settled earlier. In the late nineteenth century, their ancestors participated in the creation of new neighborhoods outside the city walls to alleviate overcrowding in the Old City, and most are now concentrated in the neighborhood of Batei Ungarin and the larger Meah Shearim neighborhood.

At the time, they were vocal opponents to the new political ideology of Zionism that was attempting to assert Jewish sovereignty in Ottoman-controlled Palestine. They resented the new arrivals, who were predominantly secular and anti-religious, and asserted that Jewish redemption could only be brought about by the Jewish messiah.

Other Orthodox Jewish movements, including some who oppose Zionism, have denounced the activities of the radical branch of Neturei Karta. According to The Guardian, "[e]ven among Charedi, or ultra-Orthodox circles, the Neturei Karta are regarded as a wild fringe".[7] Neturei Karta asserts that the mass media deliberately downplays their viewpoint and makes them out to be few in number. Their protests in America are usually attended by, at most, a few dozen people. In Israel, several hundred is typical, depending on the nature of the protest and its location.[8]

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Hungarians maybe not soo much (as Satmar are as well), but I find it hard to believe that they are the Perushim from the students of the Vilna Gaon.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

We have been discussing the issue of the 'extremists' in a couple of threads:

This thread has digressed from the original topic { thanks to me }

http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,59000.0.html

Please do not purposely drive threads off onto tangents.   There are people here who intend to discuss certain topics.  If you wish to make other threads and draw attention to other topics with other, new threads, go right ahead.  To purposely derail a conversation because it makes you uncomfortable is really improper protocol for the forum, IMO.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

This was a very unflattering article on MSNBC, I don't know whether it's just propaganda or if they are really harassing Jewish girls which don't follow their ultra strict guidelines:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45794260/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/

That really did happen though.    They are months late with the story.  (although I can't see the date anywhere on the article).   They picked up on the "protests" and now are trying to drive a wedge into religious Jews with their story, but unfortunately this incident and similar ones really did happen in RBS.   

Btw, take a look at the girl and her mother in the picture.   BOTH ARE OBVIOUSLY RELIGIOUS!    So there is no doubt that the thugs involved are villainous and are targeting people no matter if they are religious, zionist, secular, or even haredi, depending on the situation.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Unless they are absolute Nazi monsters like Muslims, the Satmar, or replacement-theologians, I am inclined to side with religious people over secular every single time regardless of what the facts are. We keep hearing all this outcry over how terrible these orthodox Jews are being to average women/girls but you never hear about how the Russian Gentile stormtroopers employed by the Israeli government to bash heads in at protests rape Israeli girls.

Look at the picture.  The woman and her daugher are religious Jews!

[muman613]

Please do not purposely drive threads off onto tangents.   There are people here who intend to discuss certain topics.  If you wish to make other threads and draw attention to other topics with other, new threads, go right ahead.  To purposely derail a conversation because it makes you uncomfortable is really improper protocol for the forum, IMO.

Huh? We were discussing this in the other thread before he even posted this.... What is this about 'purposely derail a conversation because it makes you uncomfortable'?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I think he means how out of nowhere you came up with a diss against Christmas shopping, remember?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Huh? We were discussing this in the other thread before he even posted this.... What is this about 'purposely derail a conversation because it makes you uncomfortable'?

You wrote:  This thread has digressed from the original topic { thanks to me

I thought you were implying you purposely changed the subject.   Notice that I quoted you above my statement that requested you not to change subjects.   If you were not actually purposely changing the subject to a tangent, then please ignore my request.   But if so, please explain what you meant by saying the thread digressed from the original topic thanks to you.

[muman613]

You wrote:  This thread has digressed from the original topic { thanks to me

I thought you were implying you purposely changed the subject.   Notice that I quoted you above my statement that requested you not to change subjects.   If you were not actually purposely changing the subject to a tangent, then please ignore my request.   But if so, please explain what you meant by saying the thread digressed from the original topic thanks to you.

Im sorry... I meant that I felt like I had changed the topic in the thread I linked to.... Enough about this... Sorry for the misunderstanding..

[muman613]

I think he means how out of nowhere you came up with a diss against Christmas shopping, remember?

Here you go again... I said that I am sick of the rampant consumerism which I witnessed this last week. I don't care what holiday it is. I said nothing about Christmas...

In response to your comment about the 'Matrix' I expounded by stating that the media, the TV and the Movies, are capable of making people feel like they are lacking and often inspire them to get things which they do not need. I feel that by detaching from the TV and Movies I am not subject to these forces and thus I am 'out of the matrix' so to speak...

Im sorry you think its all about Christmas... But its not...

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I do think we need to stick to topic for sure KWR. I think there have been an awful lot of threads on this particular subject but so be it. I am not really qualified to discuss the matter that was the original topic but I am always inclined to trust that Chaim knows what is going on in Israel, and what he is talking about in general. Therefore I made a comment that generally whatever the opposite of what the NWO media says about something is true. Currently the NWO media is talking nonstop about so-called Jewish "zealots" and "extremists" that are harassing girls for no reason. That raises a whole lot of red flags for me. I said that we live in a real-life Matrix regarding deception by the powers-that-be (meaning the NWO) and Muman came out with a rather strange remark that appeared to be about Christmas shopping (but would also extend to Hanukkah shopping). It later turned into a specific discussion on Air Jordan shoes and whether or not black culture had anything to do with shoe-crazed mobs (Lisa said it did, Muman denied this). I didn't find the lengthy distraction to be offensive or inappropriate really but I definitely agree that it completely changed the course of the thread from its intended purpose.

So... back to topic, I find it hard to believe that religious Jews are making life hell for innocent Jewish girls all across the state of Israel. Can we all agree on that?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Currently the NWO media is talking nonstop about so-called Jewish "zealots" and "extremists" that are harassing girls for no reason.
So... back to topic, I find it hard to believe that religious Jews are making life hell for innocent Jewish girls all across the state of Israel. Can we all agree on that?

 1) Before the media was talking about it- myself, Kahane was right Bt, and many other knew about this subject, and what is going on. Also for me, and I believe for him and others as well the media did not affect or change our opinions at all they just decided to report on it now.
 2) I dont call them "religious Jews" just people who dress like some religious Jews who are affecting other religious Jews.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I do think we need to stick to topic for sure KWR. I think there have been an awful lot of threads on this particular subject but so be it. I am not really qualified to discuss the matter that was the original topic but I am always inclined to trust that Chaim knows what is going on in Israel, and what he is talking about in general. Therefore I made a comment that generally whatever the opposite of what the NWO media says about something is true. Currently the NWO media is talking nonstop about so-called Jewish "zealots" and "extremists" that are harassing girls for no reason. That raises a whole lot of red flags for me. I said that we live in a real-life Matrix regarding deception by the powers-that-be (meaning the NWO) and Muman came out with a rather strange remark that appeared to be about Christmas shopping (but would also extend to Hanukkah shopping). It later turned into a specific discussion on Air Jordan shoes and whether or not black culture had anything to do with shoe-crazed mobs (Lisa said it did, Muman denied this). I didn't find the lengthy distraction to be offensive or inappropriate really but I definitely agree that it completely changed the course of the thread from its intended purpose.

So... back to topic, I find it hard to believe that religious Jews are making life hell for innocent Jewish girls all across the state of Israel. Can we all agree on that?

However, I know people in RBS who confirm to me it is a real problem, and I knew about this before the mass reports in the media.    Sometimes a broken clock is right, and the media is picking up on old facts, in order to paint all religious Jews and Judaism negatively, but facts nonetheless regardless of what evil purpose they are using them for.    So it's an unfortunate situation, but it's a bunch of young thugs who cause trouble, it's not the entire charedi population in RBS, not even close! 

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I know that the vast, vast majority of devout Jews in Israel do not harass people. But that is what the NWO media is claiming right now and that is why I believe that this story is either way overblown or a complete lie.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Let me put it this way. The NWO media is also claiming, all of the time, that so-called "settler extremists" are harassing and "committing atrocities against" Fakestinians as well. Is that true? (I wish it were.)

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

BTW, take a look at how a haredi rabbi (and esteemed author btw), Rabbi Daniel Eidensohn, of Har Nof, has spoken about this issue on his blog:

http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2011/12/disgusting-chilul-hashem-spitting-on-7.html

He calls it a disgusting chillul hashem, and there is an accompanying video.    So to call any criticism of these thugs an "attack on haredim" is clearly wrong.    And if that's what Chaim is implying, sorry to say, he is wrong.   Rabbi Eidensohn does not attack haredim, he is haredi himself, and he is appalled by what these youths are doing.    All reasonable haredim and reasonable people of any kind should be appalled by their harrassment of little girls.   It's truly insane.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I know that the vast, vast majority of devout Jews in Israel do not harass people. But that is what the NWO media is claiming right now and that is why I believe that this story is either way overblown or a complete lie.

 You are correct this is overblown by the world media, but nevertheless this is important to fight against regardless. Most probably are deliberately painting the wrong picture.  But this one is good though and describes it properly- that these are fring extremists against Religious Orthodox Jews.
 http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/12/27/israeli-girl-draws-thousands-online-supporters-after-being-harassed-by-jewish/

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Let me put it this way. The NWO media is also claiming, all of the time, that so-called "settler extremists" are harassing and "committing atrocities against" Fakestinians as well. Is that true? (I wish it were.)

If it was true, and then the media reported it, it wouldn't convert it into being untrue.  Either it happened or it didn't.  (in whatever specific instance).

These events happening in RBS were already known about and were true.   Now the media is jumping on it to use as a platform for attacking religious Jews and Judaism.   That does not make the original events untrue!