Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
The Truth of Channukah
edu:
The sages teach us that there are 248 positive commandments and 365 negative commandments {prohibitions} in the Torah.
Just because an early historical source fails to mention all 248 positive commandments, this is no proof that the commandments did not exist or were not performed. All it means that the omitted commandments did not fit in with the type of story the author was trying to tell.
In my humble opinion Kahane-Was-Right BT you rely too much on the argument of omission to try to "disprove" the Talmud Bavli's account of the oil miracle.
I'll take my argument one step further. The author of the Tehillim/Psalms chapter 105 was a very religious person, to the point of having Ruach Hakodesh. Yet when he recounts the plagues that fell upon Egypt during the time of Moshe/Moses he doesn't seem to mention the plague of boils (the sixth plague). Is this proof, because he omits that plague that is described in the book of Exodus/Shmot, that the plague didn't take place? Obviously Not.
Rather the plague of boils just didn't fit in with the message, that the Psalmist wished to convey.
muman613:
Ive lost track of what is being argued here.
The original post attacked the Jewish faith for observing Chanukah by lighting candles as in indication it was somehow linked to the winter solstice, which is obviously not correct as someone pointed out that the Jewish calendar is fixed to a lunar system and not linked to a solar cycle.
But then we got sidetracked when I brought up that the Book of Maccabees was not a part of the Tanakh according to the Jewish sages. As a part of the Apocrypha I related that many Rabbis eschew reading the apocryhal books and I brought several sources which support this although KWRBT doesn't agree that The Book of Maccabbes (TBoM) should be considered a Sefer Minim or Sefer Chiltzonim as the Talmud relates that reading these books cause a Jew to lose his Olam Haba(World to Come). I am still hesitant to read TBoM as it seems to be used by people who want to attack Judaism, and as I pointed out the Christians find some message which supports their religion in it {although this is only a supposition on my part}. I agree with KWRBT that reading it may not be prohibited and as a result, as RAMBAM points out that we are supposed to know how to answer a heretic, there are times we must read all the 'scriptures' which people are reading.
But I am lost as to this argument about the Talmud and the oil miracle. I don't quite understand what is being argued... It seems like an argument just for the sake of an argument... Is this L'Shem Shamayim?
edu:
Muman613 stated
--- Quote ---But I am lost as to this argument about the Talmud and the oil miracle. I don't quite understand what is being argued... It seems like an argument just for the sake of an argument... Is this L'Shem Shamayim?
--- End quote ---
My point in talking about the oil miracle, is because I was left with the impression, from the writings of
Kahane-Was-Right BT that he was hinting at, that maybe the Babylonian Talmud, was lying for the sake of advancing the agenda of the Jews in exile about the oil miracle. It was that accusation that I was trying to counter.
If that was not Kahane-Was-Right BT intention, then the argument between us is over and we can move on to other issues.
If I was not interpreting Kahane-Was-Right BT correctly please clear this up for me.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: edu on January 13, 2012, 02:35:15 AM ---The sages teach us that there are 248 positive commandments and 365 negative commandments {prohibitions} in the Torah.
Just because an early historical source fails to mention all 248 positive commandments, this is no proof that the commandments did not exist or were not performed. All it means that the omitted commandments did not fit in with the type of story the author was trying to tell.
In my humble opinion Kahane-Was-Right BT you rely too much on the argument of omission to try to "disprove" the Talmud Bavli's account of the oil miracle.
--- End quote ---
Tell me, which mitzvah did I say did not exist?
Which mitzvah did the book of macabees claim did not exist? None that I am aware of. But I guess you're the expert since you never reead it. So please enlighten us all.
--- Quote ---I'll take my argument one step further. The author of the Tehillim/Psalms chapter 105 was a very religious person, to the point of having Ruach Hakodesh. Yet when he recounts the plagues that fell upon Egypt during the time of Moshe/Moses he doesn't seem to mention the plague of boils (the sixth plague). [Bg Is this proof, because he omits that plague that is described in the book of Exodus/Shmot, that the plague didn't take place? Obviously Not.
Rather the plague of boils just didn't fit in with the message, that the Psalmist wished to convey.
--- End quote ---
Another straw man because I never said this. But this is a good question for you? Are you claiming that the author of psalms in not mentioning those things had some secret pernicious agenda to try to hide them? I think that's not a realistic claim at all.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on January 13, 2012, 02:57:55 AM ---Ive lost track of what is being argued here.
--- End quote ---
Join the club. I think he is confusing me with sephirath ben baruch even though we are both saying completely different things.
I'm simply trying to uphold what I think is the truth in these matters based on logic and proof from texts. I'm not sure what the argument of hypotheticals against my pov actually is.
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