Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
The Truth of Channukah
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
Here's a clear summary for why it makes no sense to say the author of macabees 1 (or 2 for that matter) was against rabbinic Judaism, against the rabbis, or had a malicious/conspiratorial intent in not mentioning the oil miracle: because if you claim that he does just based on the fact that he didn't mention it, then that means that all the other major sources which did not mention it had these same evil motives (chas veshalom) such as the Talmud Yerushalmi, masechet sofrim, megillath taanith, pesikta rabbathi, etc.
Now. Care to reexamine your argument in light of this most obvious baseless slander of chachamim?
edu:
Kahane-Was-Right BT
You're using a straw man. Talmud Yerushalmi etc. is part of our holy sources.
But just to restate what I was saying, you can't prove, that the sources you site
disagree, with the oil miracle, unless they say so explicitly.
They could be quiet about it for several reasons.
So again I am asking you, do you believe that the Babylonian Talmud is lying?
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: edu on January 15, 2012, 12:46:13 AM ---Kahane-Was-Right BT
You're using a straw man. Talmud Yerushalmi etc. is part of our holy sources.
But just to restate what I was saying, you can't prove, that the sources you site
disagree, with the oil miracle, unless they say so explicitly.
They could be quiet about it for several reasons.
So again I am asking you, do you believe that the Babylonian Talmud is lying?
--- End quote ---
Now you've completely lost me. Please employ logic.
Your claim: macabees 1 author is a sadducee propagandist who is "hiding" the oil miracle by not mentioning it, and the proof is merely the fact that he didn't mention.
Why your claim makes no sense: some of "our holy sources" such as Talmud Yerushalmi, do not mention the oil miracle, so someone cannot be discredited and dismissed simply because it/they does not mention the hanuka oil miracle. Or else you'll have to dismiss our holy sources too.
And no I do not think the talmud bavli is ever "lying" when stating its views. What an absurd question.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: edu on January 15, 2012, 12:46:13 AM ---Kahane-Was-Right BT you can't prove, that the sources you site
disagree, with the oil miracle, unless they say so explicitly.
--- End quote ---
What does disagreeing with an oil miracle mean?
--- Quote ---They could be quiet about it for several reasons.
--- End quote ---
And the author of maccabees 1 could be (and probably is) quiet about it for the very same reasons.
Sephirath:
This will be fun!
--- Quote from: edu on January 08, 2012, 03:28:24 AM ---
The rabbis of the Talmud held that the sources quoted by Sephirath ben Baruch are unreliable and according to the simple understanding of their words even held that it was forbidden to study them.
I heard a lenient view, but I can not recall in whose name it was said, that if it is learned as a flawed historical source and not as a biblical book, it is not outright forbidden.
Just as today, besides legitimate Judaism, you have new sects that distort it, such as, reform, conservative and reconstructionist, so too during second temple times you had heretical sects, such as the Sadducees, as well as a few more, which I will not mention here. Who knows what was the religious affiliation and/or bias of the book of Maccabees.
point 2, the menora of the Torah had seven branches not six. Six outer branches together with one central branch
point 3, there is actually a prohibition to make a seven branch menora for non-temple purposes (see for example, Talmud tractate Rosh Hashana page 24)
point 4, The book of Esther which is part of the Tanakh/Bible does call for the addition of the celebration of a holiday that is not mentioned in the Torah. For whatever, reason you wish to give, why that holiday with all its activities is permitted, so too this applies for lighting Hanuka candles (or wicks in oil).
point 5, According to Rashi the prohibition of adding to the Torah is not to add extra details to a mitzva written in the Torah. For example, not to add words to the bircat cohanim {priestly blessing} mentioned in Bamidbar/Numbers 6 verses 24 to 26. According to Rambam, the prohibition of adding to the Torah is that one is not allowed to identify a rabbinic commandment as if it a Torah commandment. But if you clearly identify that the source of a practice is rabbinic it is not a violation.
Another false point of Sephirath Ben Baruch that I have not previously addressed is his connection of Chanuka with the pagan Solstice ceremony
He is ignorant of the fact that the Jewish calendar is not solar. It is lunar based. Therefore Chanuka will not always fall on the days of the Soltice ceremony. Especially since during the 2nd Temple, the calendar was not fixed as it is today. Every year, it was up to the Sanhedrin to decide, if the year would contain 12 lunar months or 13 lunar months. Also the start of each month was determined by the Sanhedrin.
Furthermore, Sephirath Ben Baruch contradicts himself. He starts off clearly acknowledging that there was some celebration on the 25th of Kislev concerning the rededication of the Temple, a point clearly acknowledged by Orthodox Judaism and then he changes his mind and claims Chanuka is a Solstice ceremony, which is an outright lie and slander.
--- End quote ---
Point 1: Validate your sources!
Point 2: The Menorah of the Beit HaMidash had only 6 branches all connected to one stand tied into a base. There wasn't seven branches, four on one side or four on the other. "32 And six branches are running out from its sides, three branches of the lampstand from its one side and three branches of the lampstand from its other side. 33 Three cups shaped like flowers of almond are on the one set of branches, with knobs and blossoms alternating, and three cups shaped like flowers of almond on the other set of branches, with knobs and blossoms alternating. This is the way it is with the six branches running out from the lampstand." (Shemot 25:32-33) Okay, Eda... Do you overstand now?
Point 3:The Holy Menorah should only be in Jehovah's House of Sacrifice. The prohibition in the quote is correct. (We agree, right?)
Point 4: Jehovah through Malachi ordained Purim unlike Channukah. The Hashmoneans where not prophets infact they weren't even the Sons of Zadok (First High Priest to Jedidiah's Temple). The Navi Yechezchial proclaims for Jeh0vah "But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of My sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from Me, they shall come near to Me to minister unto Me; and they shall stand before Me to offer unto Me the fat and the blood, saith the Jehovah God." (Yechezchial 44:15) The Lord ordained for ministry the House of Zadok only (note* It is likely that the origin of the term Sadducee is the same as Zadokite, after it passed through Greek translation.). Interestingly we read, "(53) they rose and offered sacrifice, as the law directs, on the new altar of burnt offering which they had built. (56) So they celebrated the dedication of the altar for eight days, and offered burnt offerings with gladness; they offered a sacrifice of deliverance and praise (59)" (1 Maccabees 4:52-59) In this verse the Hasmonean (Probably from the House of Abiathar) in disobedience offered up sacrifices.
Point 5: According to the Almighty, "You shall not add to the law which I command you, not shall you diminish from it" (Davarim - 4:2). "All that I command you, you shall diligently do; you shall not add to it nor diminish from it" (Davarim - 13:1) "Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you and you be found a liar". (Mishlei - 30:6). Yet Rashi is correct in stating not to add extra in the mitzvah's, for in the days ahead HaShem will complete his Torah. Only through the name of Jeh0vah alone can laws be created.
--- Quote from: muman613 on January 10, 2012, 01:03:36 AM ---Yes the obvious failure to mention that Chanukah is based on the Hebrew calender, which is a lunar cycle, doesn't always fall out on the Winter Solstice... Must not have been written by a scholar...
--- End quote ---
Correction, LuniSolar.... "There was not a word of all that Moses commanded, which Joshua READ not before all the assembly of Israel, and the women, and the little ones, and the strangers that walked among them." (Yehoshua 8:35)
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