Author Topic: A question for all JTFers  (Read 2310 times)

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Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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A question for all JTFers
« on: January 30, 2012, 12:57:12 PM »
All,

Have you ever wondered if there's any point at all to what we do? If G-d will simply do what his will is in the end no matter what?
Has it ever crossed your mind that we're not really righteous and that nobody is under the sun, and we are just kidding ourselves more than most?
Have you ever asked just what it is we are really getting out of this and who benefits?
Or, anything similar?
« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 06:07:46 PM by Axl Rose »

Offline Rubystars

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Re: A question for all JTFers
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2012, 01:24:54 PM »
As far as being righteous I think we're a good deal better off than someone like George Tiller who is likely having scissors shoved into the back of his head over and over again as he burns in hell.

I think what we're expected to do from a religious point of view would be to do something about trying to change the world for the better, and if our efforts are futile, at least we did what we could, and tried to bless the world. This is better than doing nothing. If you pray for something good to happen like for someone to be healed, or for someone to be a better person, and it doesn't happen, I think you still get some merit for praying for something righteous. You can only do your part and G-d will handle the rest.

We need to have faith that the good guys will eventually win even if we have to pass through some dark times first.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: A question for all JTFers
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2012, 02:22:12 PM »
As far as being righteous I think we're a good deal better off than someone like George Tiller who is likely having scissors shoved into the back of his head over and over again as he burns in hell.

I think what we're expected to do from a religious point of view would be to do something about trying to change the world for the better, and if our efforts are futile, at least we did what we could, and tried to bless the world. This is better than doing nothing. If you pray for something good to happen like for someone to be healed, or for someone to be a better person, and it doesn't happen, I think you still get some merit for praying for something righteous. You can only do your part and G-d will handle the rest.

We need to have faith that the good guys will eventually win even if we have to pass through some dark times first.
Rubystars, I think of what the great King Solomon/Shlomo wrote in Ecclesiastes 7:20:
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Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins.
That's as true today as it was when he penned this some 3000 years ago.

If we are holding ourselves to the moral standard of being better than George Tiller or Adolf Hitler, we aren't doing ourselves any favors. Most human beings are "better" than they are. Most humans do not commit murder or rape but we still do plenty of evil things. Even the most righteous people on earth have some sins they have never repented of. Who actually makes it to heaven in the end? I don't think any of us really know. Some people we might expect to be there likely won't be, and some that we are positive don't deserve eternal life will achieve it.

Offline Zelhar

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Re: A question for all JTFers
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2012, 04:30:52 PM »
Quote
If we are holding ourselves to the moral standard of being better than George Tiller or Adolf Hitler, we aren't doing ourselves any favors. Most human beings are "better" than they are. Most humans do not commit murder or rape but we still do plenty of evil things. Even the most righteous people on earth have some sins they have never repented of. Who actually makes it to heaven in the end? I don't think any of us really know. Some people we might expect to be there likely won't be, and some that we are positive don't deserve eternal life will achieve it.
What if there is no heaven, does it grant you a license to kill ? No one lives without doing some evil but if there is heaven I am sure that the qualifications for reaching it are a little more lax then "commit no sin ever".

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: A question for all JTFers
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2012, 04:38:48 PM »
All,

Have you ever wondered if there's any point at all to what we do? If G-d will simply do what his will is in the end no matter what?
Have it ever crossed your mind that we're not really righteous and that nobody is under the sun, and we are just kidding ourselves more than most?
Have you ever asked just what it is we are really getting out of this and who benefits?
Or, anything similar?

I used to every so often before I joined JTF, but now that I'm here, I do see a point.

Have you ever noticed that that the third day of creation is a continuation of the second day?  We know this because on the second day Gd never said, "and it was good". However on the third day, He said it was good twice.  So what's the point of this?  If Gd wanted to, He could have finished the universe in one day.  And He could have simply finished the second day like any other day rather to continue into the third day.  But there is a moral to this story.  When we pray for things or work hard at something, the results will not always come on the same day we worked on it..Years, however, may go by until we get to see the fruits of our labor.  Or perhaps, not in our lifetime..maybe the fruits of our labor here will show up in the next generation or two..the important thing is we try, we pray and Gd will listen and answer us eventually in the right time.  There will be a reward in the next world for righteous deeds.

In the meantime, fight the good fight and get married and have children if it is possible.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

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Offline briann

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Re: A question for all JTFers
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2012, 05:09:42 PM »
I used to every so often before I joined JTF, but now that I'm here, I do see a point.

Have you ever noticed that that the third day of creation is a continuation of the second day?  We know this because on the second day Gd never said, "and it was good". However on the third day, He said it was good twice.  So what's the point of this?  If Gd wanted to, He could have finished the universe in one day.  And He could have simply finished the second day like any other day rather to continue into the third day.  But there is a moral to this story.  When we pray for things or work hard at something, the results will not always come on the same day we worked on it..Years, however, may go by until we get to see the fruits of our labor.  Or perhaps, not in our lifetime..maybe the fruits of our labor here will show up in the next generation or two..the important thing is we try, we pray and Gd will listen and answer us eventually in the right time.  There will be a reward in the next world for righteous deeds.

In the meantime, fight the good fight and get married and have children if it is possible.

Well said.

Offline Chai

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Re: A question for all JTFers
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2012, 05:13:08 PM »
All,

Have you ever wondered if there's any point at all to what we do? If G-d will simply do what his will is in the end no matter what?
Have it ever crossed your mind that we're not really righteous and that nobody is under the sun, and we are just kidding ourselves more than most?
Have you ever asked just what it is we are really getting out of this and who benefits?
Or, anything similar?

every day

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: A question for all JTFers
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2012, 05:16:23 PM »
I hate to ask this, but what if the Bible is metaphorical and not literal? I never would have thought that but right now, I'm just not so sure of anything...  

Offline muman613

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Re: A question for all JTFers
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2012, 05:23:15 PM »
Just remember Pirkie Avot 2:21 (or 2:16)...

http://www.torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter2-21.html

"He [Rabbi Tarfon] used to say, it is not upon you to complete the task, but you are not free to idle from it. If you have learned much Torah, you will be given much reward. And faithful is your Employer that He will reward you for your labor. And know that the reward of the righteous will be in the World to Come."

This mishna closely resembles the previous, also authored by R. Tarfon. Last week we learned: "The day is short, the work is great, the workers are lazy, the reward is great, and the Master of the house presses." We were given a sense of the urgency of life. Here too, R. Tarfon discusses the enormity of the tasks to be performed and the magnitude of Divine reward. Yet our mishna introduces a number of new ideas, and as we will see, a much broader and more profound image of life will emerge.

This week R. Tarfon tells us that it is not upon us to complete the task. He also states that G-d is "faithful" to reward us -- and that that reward may come only in the World to Come. I believe last week R. Tarfon was offering us a personal or individualistic outlook on life. We must see life as an ongoing procession of challenges and opportunities. There is much work to be done and much reward to be earned. The stakes are very high. Our lives should be one of boldly and eagerly meeting the many challenges before us.

Here R. Tarfon views life from a broader perspective -- not the personal but the global one. It is true that we must work hard and accomplish mightily. There are very few of us who could not change the world for the better if we had only the vision and the drive. Yet we must not feel it all rests on our shoulders: the task is not ours to complete. We must make the effort, but whether or not our efforts will be successful is in the hands of G-d. We do our part -- we are not free to idle -- yet we rest assured that G-d is the ultimate arbiter of what is and what is not accomplished in this world. And if we are not successful, it is beyond our control, and most importantly: it is not our problem.

For this reason, our mishna seems to almost deemphasize reward -- stating that we must be patient about it and not necessarily expect it in this world. Viewing the world from our own perspective, we might have expected that if we work so hard, we will enjoy the fruits of our labor. We would expect our deeds to make the world a visibly better place, and that the rewards which are our due be handed to us on a silver platter.

However, R. Tarfon, from the grander perspective of this mishna, warns us otherwise. We do our part, but we must accept that from our limited perspective we may not so quickly see the results. The gears of this world churn exceedingly slow. G-d has His plan and the world will certainly reach its zenith, but the march towards that goal may not even be perceptible to us. Many lifetimes may go by before we see the world move ahead. Many world events from our perspective may seem to be moving the world backwards rather than forwards. For we must simply accept that just as our own tasks are beyond our ability to control and complete, the results of our labor may be beyond our ability to comprehend. Every good deed brings the world forward -- that we know certainly, but how precisely we may never know.
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You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Chaim Ben Pesach

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Re: A question for all JTFers
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2012, 05:25:55 PM »
בס''ד

The purpose of all creation is for us to do good out of our own free will. That is the consistent theme of the Bible - if you do good, you will have eternal life; if not, then you have chosen the path of death.

G-d gives us the power to control what will happen based upon our free will decisions. Individually, we do not necessarily see that in this world (but we will certainly see it in the next world on judgement day). However on a national level, we do see it - when the Jews do good (as in the days of King David) there is tremendous reward; when they don't, there is punishment. The same is true for gentile nations - when they bless Israel, they are blessed; when they curse Israel, they are cursed. The only world leader who is pro-Israel today is Canada's prime minister, and Canada's economy is now doing much better than America's economy for the first time in decades.  Obviously, what it says in the Bible is absolutely true.

Offline Confederate Kahanist

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Re: A question for all JTFers
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2012, 05:40:54 PM »
בס''ד

 The only world leader who is pro-Israel today is Canada's prime minister, and Canada's economy is now doing much better than America's economy for the first time in decades.  Obviously, what it says in the Bible is absolutely true.

I bet he's more pro Israel than any of the candidates running for president.
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Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: A question for all JTFers
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2012, 06:07:32 PM »
בס''ד

The purpose of all creation is for us to do good out of our own free will. That is the consistent theme of the Bible - if you do good, you will have eternal life; if not, then you have chosen the path of death.

G-d gives us the power to control what will happen based upon our free will decisions. Individually, we do not necessarily see that in this world (but we will certainly see it in the next world on judgement day). However on a national level, we do see it - when the Jews do good (as in the days of King David) there is tremendous reward; when they don't, there is punishment. The same is true for gentile nations - when they bless Israel, they are blessed; when they curse Israel, they are cursed. The only world leader who is pro-Israel today is Canada's prime minister, and Canada's economy is now doing much better than America's economy for the first time in decades.  Obviously, what it says in the Bible is absolutely true.
I agree. I also acknowledge that I am a lot better off than many people. That being said, like you point out not EVERY person who blesses the Jews gets a reward in this lifetime for it. We are supposed to do what is right because it is right, not because we will get a reward. Some of us won't get rewards in this life. Some of us won't even get rewards in the next life. If someone blesses the Jews but leads a life of rank, unrepentant sexual immorality for instance, they still will not be blessed for the good they did. Likewise, some people might be righteous for a while, but then turn aside to the ways of evil. Were they ever righteous to begin with?

So many more questions than answers, and so much to swallow and take. But thank you for your response, Chaim.

Offline muman613

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Re: A question for all JTFers
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2012, 06:51:24 PM »
We are rewarded for all the good we do, likewise we are punished for all the evil which we do... It is not as if one wipes out the other.

Middah Keneged Middah/ Measure for Measure...

http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/peninim/archives/noach71.htm

Quote


Sforno interprets the idiom "came down to see" with a much different meaning than it would seem to one who is rendering a simple, literal translation. This phrase is used concerning Hashem, in a circumstance in which the action of the sinner does not in itself merit punishment - right now. It will, however, lead to a more egregious deterioration which will warrant punishment. A similar interpretation is to be found concerning the ben sorrer u'moreh, wayward and gluttonous son, about whom Chazal state: Yardah Torah l'sof daato, "The Torah descended to the depths of his intention (Sanhedrin 72a). They saw that his present actions would inevitably lead to a more serious encounter with sin. It would lead to murder. Concerning the evil inhabitants of Sodom, the Torah writes: "I will go down now and see" (Bereishis 18:21). As Sforno observes, their present wickedness is no greater than other people who merit punishment. The reason that they receive such a devastating punishment is that their cruelty against poor people is so evil that it would result in total deterioration. Last, Sforno posits that this is also true concerning Klal Yisrael's punishment in their exile. As we see in Sefer Devarim 32:20, Ereh mah acharisam, "I will see what their end shall be."

To recap Sforno's words, we see that Hashem judges us based upon the ultimate consequences of a present act or condition. This is the case concerning the severe punishment meted out to the rebellious son. Hashem knows that ultimately he will murder and steal in order to appease his gluttonous appetite. Sodom's punishment was based upon the inevitable results of their present iniquitous behavior. Likewise, Hashem examined the inevitable results of the Tower of Bavel and decided that it must be prevented through dispersion. Last, Sforno renders a compelling interpretation of the pasuk in Devarim which would normally be translated as a reflection on Klal Yisrael's vulnerability. Instead, Sforno explains that Hashem will "hide His face from them" (beginning of the pasuk), because He sees what their actions will lead to. Therefore, He turns away from them - now!

Horav Yeruchem Levovitz, zl, derives from Sforno's words that we do not view the results which emanate from a given action to be merely secondary consequences. No! They are all part and parcel of the original act. This applies to every ramification - regardless of how indirect, far-fetched and far-flung it may be. If it results from the original - it is part of the original. When Kayin slew Hevel in a fit of envy, Hashem reproved him with the words, Kol demei achicha tzoakim eilai min ha'adamah, "The blood of your brother cries out to Me from the ground!" (Bereishis 4:10). Rashi notes the use of the word demei, bloods, as opposed to dam, blood. The plural construct of the word leads Chazal (Sanhedrin 37a) to say that Kayin's crime was not limited to the death of Hevel alone, but, in effect, he shed the blood of Hevel and that of his many future descendants.
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Now that I have succeeded in depressing everyone, we should look at the flip-side. Chazal teach us that the reward Hashem gives us for a positive action is five hundred times greater than the punishment He metes out for a sinful deed. Therefore, one mitzvah can certainly have not only positive ramifications, but the reward can be mind-boggling! Imagine, performing a mitzvah that has enduring consequences for generations. There is no way to tally up the reward. One mitzvah can transform a life! Multiply that by many mitzvos - many people - many generations. It is incalculable!


See also : http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/peninim/archives/vayeshev70.htm

Talmudic Insights on Reward & Punishment : http://www.webshas.org/emunah/sechar/general.htm
« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 07:17:00 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: A question for all JTFers
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2012, 07:51:36 PM »
I hate to ask this, but what if the Bible is metaphorical and not literal? I never would have thought that but right now, I'm just not so sure of anything...  

The bible is a book of morality with some history.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Secularbeliever

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Re: A question for all JTFers
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2012, 07:53:25 PM »
I hate to ask this, but what if the Bible is metaphorical and not literal? I never would have thought that but right now, I'm just not so sure of anything...  

Is something going on in your life that is bringing on this crisis of doubt?
We all need to pray for Barack Obama, may the Lord provide him a safe move back to Chicago in January 2,013.

Offline The One and Only Mo

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Re: A question for all JTFers
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2012, 08:08:24 PM »
You mean to say what's the point of religion?

Offline Lisa

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Re: A question for all JTFers
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2012, 08:10:14 PM »
You sound depressed.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: A question for all JTFers
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2012, 09:01:27 PM »
Axl,I don't know what you're going through, but you have to stay strong! No good comes from loosing faith! Trust me. You do a lot of great work on Jtf. Thank you! Hope your are alright?
« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 09:16:32 PM by Nazarene911 »
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: A question for all JTFers
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2012, 09:05:36 PM »
I don't have the luxury of losing faith I've seen too many spiritual/supernatural things, maybe when I have a chance to get on AIM we can talk about that Axl. Also I don't think people have to repent for every little sin, as long as they ask God for forgiveness in general and do their best to live a righteous life.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: A question for all JTFers
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2012, 09:53:33 PM »
I don't have the luxury of losing faith I've seen too many spiritual/supernatural things, maybe when I have a chance to get on AIM we can talk about that Axl. Also I don't think people have to repent for every little sin, as long as they ask G-d for forgiveness in general and do their best to live a righteous life.
Ruby are you poking fun at me about the spirit world? I'm not mad I'm just wondering if your serious or not.
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: A question for all JTFers
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2012, 10:57:29 PM »
Yeah I'm having a challenging time. I know G-d is real but I don't know exactly what else is right this moment.

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: A question for all JTFers
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2012, 07:44:23 AM »
All,

Have you ever wondered if there's any point at all to what we do? If G-d will simply do what his will is in the end no matter what?
Has it ever crossed your mind that we're not really righteous and that nobody is under the sun, and we are just kidding ourselves more than most?
Have you ever asked just what it is we are really getting out of this and who benefits?
Or, anything similar?

Welcome to the club !
In my opinion, it's good that you ask yourself these questions. Because if you did not, you would be either a complacent person or some sort of machine, and either way your faith would not be worth much. Someone who never doubts is blind and dangerous.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: A question for all JTFers
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2012, 07:51:03 AM »
Ruby are you poking fun at me about the spirit world? I'm not mad I'm just wondering if your serious or not.

No I'm serious. I didn't know you had your own experiences. Maybe I wasn't following your posts well enough to know that or I read it but forgot.

Offline Rational Jew

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Re: A question for all JTFers
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2012, 08:00:37 AM »
I don't want to seem rude here, but it looks like we have muslim apologists on this forum:

Americans planned and executed 9/11 them selves so they could invade Afganistan and use "Global terror" excuse to wage wars all over the World.

P.S. If you think that MOSSAD is there to protect you, than you are obviously not well informed...

I know Serbs may have different point of view, but this guy blames America for worlds' problems

 >:(
Jew or Gentile, Black or White - Against Islam we must unite!

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: A question for all JTFers
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2012, 08:08:01 AM »
The same is true for gentile nations - when they bless Israel, they are blessed; when they curse Israel, they are cursed. The only world leader who is pro-Israel today is Canada's prime minister, and Canada's economy is now doing much better than America's economy for the first time in decades.  

With all due respect, I seriously doubt that the reason why Canada's economy is doing relatively well at the moment is because Canada's prime minister is "pro-Israel". I would rather look for economic reasons.
Besides, why are the Saudis so wealthy and prosperous then, although they curse Israel ? Why is Germany, a country that carried out a genocide againt Jews, the biggest and most powerful economy in Europe ?

Obviously, what it says in the Bible is absolutely true.

Honestly, I can't see anything obvious in the Bible. If what the Bible said was obvious, would it be a great book ? What would faith be worth then ? Faith demands perseverance and the courage to believe despite the fact that we have precisely no assurance.
Besides, I find the idea of absolute truth a slippery road to fanaticism.