Evangelicals: Knights in Shining Armor or Trojan Horse?

[kahaneloyalist]

Evangelicals: Knights in Shining Armor or Trojan Horse?
by Rabbi Bentzion Kravitz

A new "soft-sell" approach to proselytizing Jews.


Lately, there has been high praise from many Jewish circles for Christian support for Israel. Some Jewish supporters call the Evangelical Christians "our best friends." I am often asked if Evangelical Christians really are our friends, or if they have a hidden
Evangelicals are following a New Testament mandate to convert Jews.
agenda.

There is irrefutable evidence that many Evangelicals who support Israel have implemented a new "soft-sell" approach to proselytizing Jews for conversion. In the words of Joe Dean, founder of an American Christian-Zionist organization:

"By standing with the Jewish people in love and support, we can provoke them to jealousy, as the apostle Paul said, 'so as to win them to Christ.' Not by cramming the gospel down their throats, but by showing that our faith produces faithful works. I have told the Jewish agencies that we are not an evangelical group as such, and this is true. We are not actively trying to win Jews to Christ - but by taking this stand, the Jewish people don't run away from us, and we are able to witness to them indirectly."

Jack Hayford, who serves as the co-chairman of the Israel-Christian Nexus, should be equally scrutinized. A comment of his at a May 25, 2007 Evangelical Prayer Banquet held in Beverly Hills revealed that he endorses the deceptive Jews for Jesus proselytizing argument that a Jew can be Christian and Jewish at the same time. No wonder hundreds of converted Jews have been attracted to Hayford's church and participate in a "Messianic" service specifically geared to them.

A recent email received from a spokesperson for one of the most prominent Christian Zionist groups, the John Hagee Ministries, states; "Keep in mind that God has 'blinded the eyes' of the Jews and hardened their hearts for having denied Christ. Also, there has been a history of persecution against the Jewish people in the name of Christianity. For this reason, Pastor [Hagee] believes that one-on-one witnessing is more effective than targeting the nation as a whole."

Recently, I heard an Israeli newspaper editor say that "the benefits of Evangelical Christian Zionists far outweigh the loss of a few Jews." This outrageous and naive attitude threatens our survival and rejects the very essence of Jewish tradition.

Evangelicals are following a New Testament mandate to convert Jews. Tragically, more than 300,000 have converted to a form of Evangelical Christianity that masquerades itself as "Messianic-Judaism." A recent news report claims that this includes 15,000 Israelis.

In light of this, it is disheartening to see many Jews who are so mesmerized by Evangelical offers of love and help that they forget, or choose to ignore, what the term
They forget what the term "evangelical" implies.
"evangelical" implies.

Rabbi Judah Loew, the Maharal of Prague (1525-1609), predicted these events when he wrote that in the last days of exile, the darkest moments would include a change in our enemies' tactics. They would turn from physically threatening our lives to making overtures of love that will entice us to assimilate and be one with them.

I am not advocating an outright rejection of Christian support for Israel. But if we're going to open our Zionist hearts to them, we better also open our Jewish eyes - and watch our Jewish backs - because many Evangelicals who claim to be our "knights in shining armor" are really a Trojan Horse.

[newman]

As a noachide I agree entiely. The problem is that it's a bit like terrorism......we don't know who's who until they make a move. Some christian organisations refuse to proselytise and forbid their members from doing so( CFI comes to mind).What we must do is keep a close eye on those claiming to be friends. Like dinner guests, if they behave,no problem. If they start misbehaving....show them the door.

[Dr. Dan]

I thank Gd for the evangelical Christians and the Intervarsity Christian Fellowship on college campuses.

You know why? Because if it hadn't been for them to try to convert my Hillel to Jews for Jesus, I wouldn't have picked up the Torah and learned about it and become stronger versed and more understanding of Judaism and some Talmud.

This should be a signal for all non-Orthodox Jews to stop being ignorant to where they come from and to move in the direction of knowledge and possibly tradition/religiosity.  The reason why many of these types of Evangelicals win is because there are a lot of self-hating Jews (knowingly self-hating and unknowingly self-hating) who go through their drab of Hebrew School and then their joke of a Bar-Mitzva without ever knowing what it really means...many don't go on after that to pursue a Jewish education and totally become lost amogst the masses by trying to be like "other nations".  And then when they go to college and things start going downhill, they lose themselves and dont' know where to look in regards to spirituality...some, on the other hand, are so haughty because they have sex with all the non-Jewish girls they want only to fall in love with one and waste many good years of their life with her until they realize that for a jew to marry another jew is really important...I have seen this countless times! and it is really upsetting.  

Bear in mind, I love all peoples and all religions for the most part. I love truely holy people irregardless of their religion because it is righteous people and holy people that walk with Gd and who are merciful and work for a better world. I love evangelicals because they love Gd and Jews...even enough to want to convert them so that to them in their theology they'll all get to Heaven because they believe in Jesus Christ..I do believe they do this out of love..and for that, even though I disagree wtih them, I really appreciate it.

I believe that people of like religions and denominations shoudl marry each other...so when I speak of a Jewish boy going with a non Jewish girl, it's nothing against the non Jewish girl..but that simply he shouldn't waste his or her time...that non Jewish girl she marry and date a man of the same religion and so shoudl the Jewish boy with a jewish girl.

[newman]

When I was a christian, I refused to entertain the idea of proselytising to jews for the following reasons:

1/ As achristian, I believed that yeshu could change hearts and minds. If he/G_d wanted jews to be christian he would make them so.

2/ After 1700 years of countless ( and I mean countless) outrages against the jews by the christian church, It was (and still is) my firm belief that any right christians might have thought they had to preach to jews has been well & truly forfeited.

3/ As a christian zionist, I believed that the Jews are the chosen people...not us. God made the Jews the keepers of his Torah(Bible) .. not us. God appointed the Jews as a nation of priests....not us. Therefor, the laypersons(us) don't preach to the priests(them).

Whilst all of us are truly grateful for the contribution evangelical christians have made to Israel's struggle, it does not give them the right to violate the Jewish people's religious integrity.

Remember.....blessing Israel will bring blessings but leading Jews from Torah observance will bring terrible curses. It aint worth it.

[Allen-T]

True Biblical Christianity DOES NOT teach hunting down people and scheming up ways to get them to convert. It does teach to offer the information everywhere,anytime to anyone. Jews that have a problem with Jews converting should focus on those converting and stop imparting nefarious motives to Christians. People who hunt down others to force something upon them, regardless of the method, are not Christians. This exists even within Christianity. There are Christians who believe that if you don't "pray in tongues" [something that hasn't existed in the church for ages] you are not a Christian and these people will stop at nothing to force this on you OR ELSE! I can't stand these people who do this either. But that's not Christianity that they are pushing. It's some kind of mish-mosh new age/christianity.

[newman]

True Biblical Christianity DOES NOT teach hunting down people and scheming up ways to get them to convert. It does teach to offer the information everywhere,anytime to anyone. Jews that have a problem with Jews converting should focus on those converting and stop imparting nefarious motives to Christians. People who hunt down others to force something upon them, regardless of the method, are not Christians. This exists even within Christianity. There are Christians who believe that if you don't "pray in tongues" [something that hasn't existed in the church for ages] you are not a Christian and these people will stop at nothing to force this on you OR ELSE! I can't stand these people who do this either. But that's not Christianity that they are pushing. It's some kind of mish-mosh new age/christianity.

No non-jewish person should even "offer" theology to jews even if done tactfully.It's NOT their place. They are the nation of priests..NOT us. They have devine election...NOT us. They are a light unto the nations.... NOT us. They are the people chosen to be the keepers of G_d's bible...NOT us. The guys at the Fiat factory don't tell the guys at Toyota how to build a reliable car!

If any non jew (and I'm one) wants to help a secular jew to find his way,tell him of his inherant greatness. Tell him of his magnificent history. Tell him of his devine election. Tell him of the great miracles anf history surrounding Israel. Then.............send him to an Orthodox rabbi or Jews for Judaism. DO NOT lead him astray with Roman theology and "G_ds that his fathers have not known". And if you see missioaries praying on a jew.....give them a well-deserved smack in the head. G_d will bless you for it.

[Ari]

This is a touchy subject, as there can be a fine line between being a Jewish supporter and angling to get you to convert.  I remember Chaim offering a view on the position.  As long as they support Jewish issues and don't try to put a lot of pressure on Jews to convert, I believe he said he doesn't have much of a problem with them and it's much better than the alternative (outward anti-semitism).  I pretty much agree with this view, but certainly certain so-called groups (Jews for Jesus, etc.) should be watched to make sure they don't go over the line.

[Dr. Dan]

When I was a christian, I refused to entertain the idea of proselytising to jews for the following reasons:

1/ As achristian, I believed that yeshu could change hearts and minds. If he/G_d wanted jews to be christian he would make them so.

2/ After 1700 years of countless ( and I mean countless) outrages against the jews by the christian church, It was (and still is) my firm belief that any right christians might have thought they had to preach to jews has been well & truly forfeited.

3/ As a christian zionist, I believed that the Jews are the chosen people...not us. G-d made the Jews the keepers of his Torah(Bible) .. not us. G-d appointed the Jews as a nation of priests....not us. Therefor, the laypersons(us) don't preach to the priests(them).

Whilst all of us are truly grateful for the contribution evangelical christians have made to Israel's struggle, it does not give them the right to violate the Jewish people's religious integrity.

Remember.....blessing Israel will bring blessings but leading Jews from Torah observance will bring terrible curses. It aint worth it.

very well said Newman...thank you.

[Lisa]

First off, if more Jewish educators and Rabbis were like Chaim, then there would be no need to worry about Jews converting to other faiths, as they would be very proud of their religion.  They would be the opposite of all the self-hating liberal Jews we see. 

Now with that being said, I don't think it's right to turn away nice sincere Christians who don't want to see Israel vivisected, especially when everyone else advocates repeating the same old suicidal policies.  There is no harm in having allies.  BUT, depending on them and not doing your own part is not acceptable.  Jews should be confident of their religion, and stand up to those who wish them harm. 

[newman]

First off, if more Jewish educators and Rabbis were like Chaim, then there would be no need to worry about Jews converting to other faiths, as they would be very proud of their religion.  They would be the opposite of all the self-hating liberal Jews we see. 

Now with that being said, I don't think it's right to turn away nice sincere Christians who don't want to see Israel vivisected, especially when everyone else advocates repeating the same old suicidal policies.  There is no harm in having allies.  BUT, depending on them and not doing your own part is not acceptable.  Jews should be confident of their religion, and stand up to those who wish them harm. 

Right again, Woman of Valour.

A jewish education or Torah knowledge is the best bullet-proofing against conversion. No Torah learned jew in history has been converted without force or coercion because other theologies don't stand a snowball's chance in hell in a fair debate. Our online yeshiva will no doubt do it's bit.

[Allen-T]

True Biblical Christianity DOES NOT teach hunting down people and scheming up ways to get them to convert. It does teach to offer the information everywhere,anytime to anyone. Jews that have a problem with Jews converting should focus on those converting and stop imparting nefarious motives to Christians. People who hunt down others to force something upon them, regardless of the method, are not Christians. This exists even within Christianity. There are Christians who believe that if you don't "pray in tongues" [something that hasn't existed in the church for ages] you are not a Christian and these people will stop at nothing to force this on you OR ELSE! I can't stand these people who do this either. But that's not Christianity that they are pushing. It's some kind of mish-mosh new age/christianity.

No non-jewish person should even "offer" theology to jews even if done tactfully.It's NOT their place. They are the nation of priests..NOT us. They have devine election...NOT us. They are a light unto the nations.... NOT us. They are the people chosen to be the keepers of G_d's bible...NOT us. The guys at the Fiat factory don't tell the guys at Toyota how to build a reliable car!

If any non jew (and I'm one) wants to help a secular jew to find his way,tell him of his inherant greatness. Tell him of his magnificent history. Tell him of his devine election. Tell him of the great miracles anf history surrounding Israel. Then.............send him to an Orthodox rabbi or Jews for Judaism. DO NOT lead him astray with Roman theology and "G_ds that his fathers have not known". And if you see missioaries praying on a jew.....give them a well-deserved smack in the head. G_d will bless you for it.

And you think what you just said is your place to address me? God help anyone I see smacking a missionary.

[Dr. Dan]

Funny...Missionaries don't prey on Jews...they pray for Jews heheheh...

[Allen-T]

This is a touchy subject, as there can be a fine line between being a Jewish supporter and angling to get you to convert.  I remember Chaim offering a view on the position.  As long as they support Jewish issues and don't try to put a lot of pressure on Jews to convert, I believe he said he doesn't have much of a problem with them and it's much better than the alternative (outward anti-semitism).  I pretty much agree with this view, but certainly certain so-called groups (Jews for Jesus, etc.) should be watched to make sure they don't go over the line.

Pressuring anyone puts the person doing the pressure in the place of God. that's not Christianity.

[newman]

True Biblical Christianity DOES NOT teach hunting down people and scheming up ways to get them to convert. It does teach to offer the information everywhere,anytime to anyone. Jews that have a problem with Jews converting should focus on those converting and stop imparting nefarious motives to Christians. People who hunt down others to force something upon them, regardless of the method, are not Christians. This exists even within Christianity. There are Christians who believe that if you don't "pray in tongues" [something that hasn't existed in the church for ages] you are not a Christian and these people will stop at nothing to force this on you OR ELSE! I can't stand these people who do this either. But that's not Christianity that they are pushing. It's some kind of mish-mosh new age/christianity.

No non-jewish person should even "offer" theology to jews even if done tactfully.It's NOT their place. They are the nation of priests..NOT us. They have devine election...NOT us. They are a light unto the nations.... NOT us. They are the people chosen to be the keepers of G_d's bible...NOT us. The guys at the Fiat factory don't tell the guys at Toyota how to build a reliable car!

If any non jew (and I'm one) wants to help a secular jew to find his way,tell him of his inherant greatness. Tell him of his magnificent history. Tell him of his devine election. Tell him of the great miracles anf history surrounding Israel. Then.............send him to an Orthodox rabbi or Jews for Judaism. DO NOT lead him astray with Roman theology and "G_ds that his fathers have not known". And if you see missioaries praying on a jew.....give them a well-deserved smack in the head. G_d will bless you for it.

And you think what you just said is your place to address me? G-d help anyone I see smacking a missionary.

If missionaries keep it to the gentiles...no problem. Prey on a son of Israel.....it's clobbering time!

[OdKahaneChai]

Funny...Missionaries to prey on Jews...they pray for Jews heheheh...

Ba dum bum PISH!

[Allen-T]

True Biblical Christianity DOES NOT teach hunting down people and scheming up ways to get them to convert. It does teach to offer the information everywhere,anytime to anyone. Jews that have a problem with Jews converting should focus on those converting and stop imparting nefarious motives to Christians. People who hunt down others to force something upon them, regardless of the method, are not Christians. This exists even within Christianity. There are Christians who believe that if you don't "pray in tongues" [something that hasn't existed in the church for ages] you are not a Christian and these people will stop at nothing to force this on you OR ELSE! I can't stand these people who do this either. But that's not Christianity that they are pushing. It's some kind of mish-mosh new age/christianity.

No non-jewish person should even "offer" theology to jews even if done tactfully.It's NOT their place. They are the nation of priests..NOT us. They have devine election...NOT us. They are a light unto the nations.... NOT us. They are the people chosen to be the keepers of G_d's bible...NOT us. The guys at the Fiat factory don't tell the guys at Toyota how to build a reliable car!

If any non jew (and I'm one) wants to help a secular jew to find his way,tell him of his inherant greatness. Tell him of his magnificent history. Tell him of his devine election. Tell him of the great miracles anf history surrounding Israel. Then.............send him to an Orthodox rabbi or Jews for Judaism. DO NOT lead him astray with Roman theology and "G_ds that his fathers have not known". And if you see missioaries praying on a jew.....give them a well-deserved smack in the head. G_d will bless you for it.

And you think what you just said is your place to address me? G-d help anyone I see smacking a missionary.

If missionaries keep it to the gentiles...no problem. Pray on a son of Israel.....it's clobbering time!

At least we agree on the methods.

[Ehud]

True Biblical Christianity DOES NOT teach hunting down people and scheming up ways to get them to convert. It does teach to offer the information everywhere,anytime to anyone. Jews that have a problem with Jews converting should focus on those converting and stop imparting nefarious motives to Christians. People who hunt down others to force something upon them, regardless of the method, are not Christians. This exists even within Christianity. There are Christians who believe that if you don't "pray in tongues" [something that hasn't existed in the church for ages] you are not a Christian and these people will stop at nothing to force this on you OR ELSE! I can't stand these people who do this either. But that's not Christianity that they are pushing. It's some kind of mish-mosh new age/christianity.

No non-jewish person should even "offer" theology to jews even if done tactfully.It's NOT their place. They are the nation of priests..NOT us. They have devine election...NOT us. They are a light unto the nations.... NOT us. They are the people chosen to be the keepers of G_d's bible...NOT us. The guys at the Fiat factory don't tell the guys at Toyota how to build a reliable car!

If any non jew (and I'm one) wants to help a secular jew to find his way,tell him of his inherant greatness. Tell him of his magnificent history. Tell him of his devine election. Tell him of the great miracles anf history surrounding Israel. Then.............send him to an Orthodox rabbi or Jews for Judaism. DO NOT lead him astray with Roman theology and "G_ds that his fathers have not known". And if you see missioaries praying on a jew.....give them a well-deserved smack in the head. G_d will bless you for it.

And you think what you just said is your place to address me? G-d help anyone I see smacking a missionary.

If missionaries keep it to the gentiles...no problem. Prey on a son of Israel.....it's clobbering time!

Agreed.  If I see any "Jews for Jesus" in the future I will seriously harass them and threaten physical violence to them.  If they don't leave and continue to stand their ground to convert other Jews, I will physically remove them from the area.  Good thing for them I haven't seen any of them in a long time.

[Dr. Dan]

True Biblical Christianity DOES NOT teach hunting down people and scheming up ways to get them to convert. It does teach to offer the information everywhere,anytime to anyone. Jews that have a problem with Jews converting should focus on those converting and stop imparting nefarious motives to Christians. People who hunt down others to force something upon them, regardless of the method, are not Christians. This exists even within Christianity. There are Christians who believe that if you don't "pray in tongues" [something that hasn't existed in the church for ages] you are not a Christian and these people will stop at nothing to force this on you OR ELSE! I can't stand these people who do this either. But that's not Christianity that they are pushing. It's some kind of mish-mosh new age/christianity.

No non-jewish person should even "offer" theology to jews even if done tactfully.It's NOT their place. They are the nation of priests..NOT us. They have devine election...NOT us. They are a light unto the nations.... NOT us. They are the people chosen to be the keepers of G_d's bible...NOT us. The guys at the Fiat factory don't tell the guys at Toyota how to build a reliable car!

If any non jew (and I'm one) wants to help a secular jew to find his way,tell him of his inherant greatness. Tell him of his magnificent history. Tell him of his devine election. Tell him of the great miracles anf history surrounding Israel. Then.............send him to an Orthodox rabbi or Jews for Judaism. DO NOT lead him astray with Roman theology and "G_ds that his fathers have not known". And if you see missioaries praying on a jew.....give them a well-deserved smack in the head. G_d will bless you for it.

And you think what you just said is your place to address me? G-d help anyone I see smacking a missionary.

If missionaries keep it to the gentiles...no problem. Prey on a son of Israel.....it's clobbering time!

Agreed.  If I see any "Jews for Jesus" in the future I will seriously harass them and threaten physical violence to them.  If they don't leave and continue to stand their ground to convert other Jews, I will physically remove them from the area.  Good thing for them I haven't seen any of them in a long time.

don't get yourself arrested now.

[newman]

Don't misunderstand me, christian allies. I don't give a hoot about missionaries doing their thing and converting gentiles......I really don't. BUT....B'nai Yisroel (Jews) are OFF LIMITS!

[Ehud]

Don't misunderstand me, christian allies. I don't give a hoot about missionaries doing their thing and converting gentiles......I really don't. BUT....B'nai Yisroel (Jews) are OFF LIMITS!

I fully support any Christian missionary to convert as many gentiles as he can.  I would even support them in doing so, I think it has a positive effect on the world.  My best friend who is a Mormon (whether you believe that to be Christianity or not) just came back from Venezuela and he improved the lives of many people there in my opinion.  The more righteous Christians we have to fight against the Muslim hoardes the better!  I just have a problem with attempting to convert Jews, there are millions of potential converts to Christianity, lay off the Jews!

[newman]

Newman,

Are you a Noahide?

Yep....not nearly as pious as I should be though

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Kahaneloyalist, you know full well you should not have posted this thread. I, as a Christian, gently advised Boeregeneraal not to make threads of this nature being as he was new and does not know better. You, however, do not have that excuse.

I will ask the mods to kindly lock this.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

There are Christians who believe that if you don't "pray in tongues" [something that hasn't existed in the church for ages] you are not a Christian

Admittedly taking this thread in a total tangent, but you know there are also Christians who teach that if you do speak in tongues then you aren't saved.

It isn't just the charismatics who are in the wrong. The Baptists/Calvinists can be just as errant.

[newman]

There are Christians who believe that if you don't "pray in tongues" [something that hasn't existed in the church for ages] you are not a Christian

Admittedly taking this thread in a total tangent, but you know there are also Christians who teach that if you do speak in tongues then you aren't saved.

It isn't just the charismatics who are in the wrong. The Baptists/Calvinists can be just as errant.

I start speaking in tongues after half a bottle of tequila. After a full bottle I do a brilliant impersoation of Linda Blair in the" Exorcist ".

[jdl4ever]

My father said that one of his friends was approached by a missionary and they started arguing.  He asked the missionary, "how much do you really love your savior?"  He answered, "with all my heart".  "More than money?"  "Yes". "Then prove it."  "How can I prove it to you."  "Give me $100".  After some thought, the missionary gave the guy $100 and this was the 70's so it was a lot of money then.  The guy bought something nice with the money.    True story.