Author Topic: Shalom  (Read 1345 times)

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Offline Dan Ben Noah

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Shalom
« on: March 14, 2012, 05:22:37 PM »
Shalom
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 04:58:07 PM by Dan Ben Noah »
Jeremiah 16:19 O Lord, Who are my power and my strength and my refuge in the day of trouble, to You nations will come from the ends of the earth and say, "Only lies have our fathers handed down to us, emptiness in which there is nothing of any avail!

Zechariah 8:23 So said the Lord of Hosts: In those days, when ten men of all the languages of the nations shall take hold of the skirt of a Jewish man, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."

Offline Rubystars

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Re: NASA specialist fired because he believes in intelligent design
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2012, 09:26:02 PM »
That's the regular person's definition of "intelligent design". It's not accurate. Most people when they hear about it think that it means something along the lines of believing God had a role in designing the universe or life. That in itself doesn't contradict science or what's observable. It also is a good camoflauge that ID advocates hide under because that's not what they're really saying.

They aim to undermine scientific conclusions themselves by trying to forcefully insert extra steps into the process. They're not just saying God guided this process or that process, but that this or that process is unable to occur by natural means at all. It's hard for me to explain the difference but that might be as close as I can come to it.

For an analogy, it's just like saying that water can't evaporate into water vapor without a miraculous direct Divine intervention. If some science teacher were to promote this in a science class, then it would be seen as inaccurate, as evaporation is a purely physical process.

In the same sense, the life cycles of stars are a purely physical process, natural selection is, etc. but "ID" advocates can't accept this. They try to say there's no way that, for example, grizzly-like bears could become polar bears (a relatively recent split, they can still interbreed) without some kind of miraculous direct Divine intervention.

ID advocates aren't just people who believe that God intelligently designed the universe. That's a completely wrong definition of who they are and what they advocate.

I don't know if this man knew that distinction or not. The DVDs themselves might not have made that distinction very clear.

I don't think he should have been fired for it, but I have to wonder how someone on that level doesn't understand that fine distinction between "God created and guided the natural processes" and "God stepped in to fill in missing steps in natural processes with miracles constantly". The first can be meshed with science, the second can't. The second also doesn't make a whole lot of sense considering that if the processes were designed well to begin with, they wouldn't need constant tinkering.

Offline muman613

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Re: NASA specialist fired because he believes in intelligent design
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2012, 09:41:40 PM »
For an analogy, it's just like saying that water can't evaporate into water vapor without a miraculous direct Divine intervention. If some science teacher were to promote this in a science class, then it would be seen as inaccurate, as evaporation is a purely physical process.

Who invented 'Evaporation' or is it something which transcends time and space? Every chemical process, every state of matter, every particle was created by someone {or something}...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
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Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: NASA specialist fired because he believes in intelligent design
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2012, 03:03:41 AM »
Methinks he wouldn't have been fired had he been engaging in dawa on the job.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: NASA specialist fired because he believes in intelligent design
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2012, 06:11:50 PM »
This is not correct, ID believers can accept this type of thing.

They don't accept that life can change over time without some kind of divine intervention. Take for example Behe's arguments about irreducible complexity. His arguments have been debunked by explaining how something can become irreducibly complex from something that isn't, or even something that appears to be really is not. At the root of his arguments is the assumption that if you see something irreducibly complex it had to have gotten there magically. There's no room for that if you use standard methodological naturalism.

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Belief in ID does not equal young earth creationism.

You're right, usually old earthers are the ones that use it.

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ID deals with the source of the universe being an intelligent designer.  The source of the universe as we know it, how life began, etc. are all things that have not been proven by science because science can't prove it.  Therefore there should be nothing wrong with someone holding the belief that the earth had a designer.

You're right that there's nothing wrong with holding the belief that the earth had a designer. There's also nothing wrong with the source of the universe being an intelligent designer. I tried to explain how the "ID" philosophy differs from these concepts. It tries to portray itself how you described in the paragraph above, but that's not really what it's all about.

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The problem is that nowadays evolutionists have made the atheist faith system one of the cornerstones of science, and having a scientist who isn't a fellow cultist in a high position doesn't look good for them.

I don't think atheism is supported by science any more than theism is. However that doesn't mean you can go injecting G-d into problems to solve them.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: NASA specialist fired because he believes in intelligent design
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2012, 06:21:13 PM »
Who invented 'Evaporation' or is it something which transcends time and space? Every chemical process, every state of matter, every particle was created by someone {or something}...

I don't have a problem with the idea that G-d set the natural laws and processes in motion and guides those processes or works through them. This is in my opinion a valid belief. It's not technically scientific because that would be outside the realm of science in my opinion, but I think it's not contradictory to hold this belief.

What I have a problem with is the attempt by ID advocates to solve scientific problems by resorting to using miracles for explanations of them. They don't try to do this with something like evaporation because it's fairly straightforward, most people have a general idea of how it works, and they see that it is a physical process. However take a concept that most people don't understand as well or that is a little more complex, and they feel they have some wiggle room to insert miraculous interventions and claim that is science.

They try to say they are just believing that G-d designed the universe, but then they go much further than that and try to establish this scientifically. Belief in G-d is ultimately that, a belief, based on faith. It can't be demonstrated scientifically. When they try to prove it, then they run into some issues.

Methinks he wouldn't have been fired had he been engaging in dawa on the job.

You're right about that!

Offline mord

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Re: NASA specialist fired because he believes in intelligent design
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2012, 06:25:53 PM »
I.D. design has many followers among scientists. Gerald Schroeder is a proponent of something like I.D. but with some religion as he's an orthodox Jew                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Schroeder 


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Gerald Schroeder
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Gerald L. Schroeder
Residence    Jerusalem, Israel
Alma mater    Massachusetts Institute of Technology

Gerald Lawrence Schroeder is an Orthodox Jewish physicist, author, lecturer and teacher at College of Jewish Studies Aish HaTorah's Discovery Seminar, Essentials and Fellowships programs and Executive Learning Center,[1] who focuses on what he perceives to be an inherent relationship between science and spirituality.
Contents
 [hide]

    1 Education
    2 Aliyah to Israel
    3 Religious views
    4 Personal
    5 Prizes
    6 Works
    7 See also
    8 References
    9 External links
        9.1 Articles by Gerald L. Schroeder

[edit] Education

Schroeder received his BSc in 1959, his MSc in 1961, and his PhD in nuclear physics and earth and planetary sciences in 1965, from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT).[2] He worked five years on the staff of the MIT physics department. He was a member of the United States Atomic Energy Commission.[3]
[edit] Aliyah to Israel

After emigrating to Israel in 1971, Schroeder was employed as a researcher at the Weizmann Institute of Science, the Volcani Research Institute, and the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.[4][5] He currently teaches at Aish HaTorah College of Jewish Studies.[6]
[edit] Religious views

His works frequently cite Talmudic, Midrashic and medieval commentaries on Biblical creation accounts, such as commentaries written by the Jewish philosopher Nachmanides. Among other things, Schroeder attempts to reconcile a young Earth creationist Biblical view with the scientific model of a world that is billions of years old using the idea that the perceived flow of time for a given event in an expanding universe varies with the observer’s perspective of that event. He attempts to reconcile the two perspectives numerically, calculating the effect of the stretching of space-time, based on Einstein's theory of general relativity.[7]

Antony Flew, an academic philosopher who promoted atheism for most of his adult life indicated that the fine-tuned universe arguments of Gerald Schroeder convinced him to become a deist.[8][9] In precise adjunct to accurately focus the late Flew's stated position, Flew has concluded his book, There Is A God, wherein he credits Gerald Schroeder at length, with these final words: "I am very much impressed [with] the case for Christianity... Is it possible that there can be or can be divine revelation? As I said, you cannot limit the possibilities of omnipotence except to produce the logically impossible. Everything is open to omnipotence."
[edit] Personal

Schroeder's wife Barbara Sofer is a popular columnist for the English language Israeli newspaper Jerusalem Post. The couple have five children.
[edit] Prizes

In 2012 Schroeder was awarded the Trotter Prize by Texas A&M University's College of Science.[10]
[edit] Works

    Genesis and the Big Bang (1990), ISBN 0-553-35413-2
    The Science of God: The Convergence of Scientific and Biblical Wisdom, (1997), ISBN 0-7679-0303-X
    The Hidden Face of God: Science Reveals the Ultimate Truth, (2002), ISBN 0-7432-0325-9.
    God According to God: A Physicist Proves We've Been Wrong About God All Along, (2009), ISBN 978-0061710155.

[edit] See also

    Modern day Orthodox Jewish views on evolution

[edit] References

    ^ "Executive Learning Center Faculty". Retrieved 2010-12-13.
    ^ Lowe, Chelsea (Sep/Oct 2006). "Nuclear Scientist Sees No God-Science Conflict". Technology Review. Retrieved 18 December 2010.
    ^ Sacks, Brian (2 October 2007). "Where the Bible meets the Big Bang". sullivan-county.com. Retrieved 18 December 2010.
    ^ Schroeder, Gerald (Fall 2006). "Finding the Intelligence Within the Design". Jewish Action: 17–22.
    ^ Gerald Schroeder '59 at the Wayback Machine (archived January 14, 2008)
    ^ "About Dr. Gerald Schroeder". geraldschroeder.com. Retrieved 18 December 2010.
    ^ Schroeder, Dr. Gerald. "Age of the Universe". aish.com. Retrieved 18 December 2010.
    ^ Associated Press (14 April 2010). "Antony Flew dies at 87; atheist philosopher who changed his mind late in life". Los Angeles Times. Retrieved 18 December 2010.
    ^ Oppenheimer, Mark (4 November 2007). "The Turning of an Atheist". The New York Times. Retrieved 18 December 2010.
    ^ Trotter Prize & Endowed Lecture Series

Alot more 

http://www.geraldschroeder.com/About.aspx
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
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Offline Rubystars

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Re: NASA specialist fired because he believes in intelligent design
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2012, 06:38:13 PM »
Mord I've heard the name before but it's been so long since I've been actively involved in this topic that I'm not familiar with what his specific claims are. What does he use to try to demonstrate "ID?" With just a name and not knowing what he actually tries to claim I can't do much with it or really respond.

I want to re-emphasize that believing in intelligent design is not the same thing at all as what most "Intelligent Design" advocates actually advocate for. I know that this is confusing but they use that to their advantage to push their agenda. Even trying to expose them is difficult because of the fine distinction that they exploit.

Offline mord

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Re: NASA specialist fired because he believes in intelligent design
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2012, 06:44:24 PM »
Mord I've heard the name before but it's been so long since I've been actively involved in this topic that I'm not familiar with what his specific claims are. What does he use to try to demonstrate "ID?" With just a name and not knowing what he actually tries to claim I can't do much with it or really respond.

I want to re-emphasize that believing in intelligent design is not the same thing at all as what most "Intelligent Design" advocates actually advocate for. I know that this is confusing but they use that to their advantage to push their agenda. Even trying to expose them is difficult because of the fine distinction that they exploit.
This is a good synopsis              http://www.geraldschroeder.com/EvolutionBibleStyle.aspx
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
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Offline Rubystars

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Re: NASA specialist fired because he believes in intelligent design
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2012, 07:39:18 PM »
I read through it and I see a few things I'd like to go over in detail but it's probably going to have to wait until tomorrow since I have to get ready for work pretty soon. There are things I agree with and things I don't agree with in the article but I'll get into that when I have time to type it all out.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: NASA specialist fired because he believes in intelligent design
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2012, 09:20:03 PM »
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There were swimming dinosaurs, running dinosaurs, even a form of flying dinosaur.

This is a minor nitpick, but as someone trying to portray himself as making scientific points, Schroeder really should be more precise. I don't know what he meant by "swimming dinosaurs". If he meant plesiosaurs, they were not considered to be dinosaurs but were their own separate group. If he meant Pterosaurs with his "flying dinosaur" reference, he'd also be wrong. Pterosaurs, like dinosaurs, were a type of archosaur, but are not considered to be dinosaurs themselves. If he meant birds by flying dinosaur, then that would be more accurate, as birds are considered to fit within the dinosaur group. It's really strange though that he mentioned "A" form of flying dinosaur, as if there were only one species. I'd hardly call an eagle and a duck "a" form of flying dinosaur. I think it's weird he would open his article in such a way that would make it difficult to know what he's talking about, and also is really inaccurate if taken at face value.

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and all animals larger than about five kilograms disappeared from the fossil record.
Again this is not very accurate. There were large animals that survived, mostly in the ocean or aquatic environments, such as large crocodiles and fish. I point this out because he specifically mentioned 'swimming' dinosaurs before. I'm not sure what he meant by that, but when he later goes on to talk about animals, I assume that he would include aquatic or marine animals due to that, yet he seems to forget they existed.

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From a secular view - what luck for us; not so lucky for the dinos. From a theological view, G-d has stepped into re-direct the development of
animal life.

He's framing this in secular vs. religious terms. In scientific terms it would be neither lucky nor G-d stepping in. It would just be what happened. The demise of the dominant dinosaurs making way for mammals to expand would be neither good nor bad, lucky nor unlucky. It would just have been history. Any subjective reactions to it are just that.

Personally I believe that G-d did set in motion events that would lead this to happen to serve His will. However this can not be in any way demonstrated.

It's just a belief. The facts do not say one way or another why this happened or whether it was good or bad.

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Dinosaurs were getting bigger, but they were not getting smarter. A vessel was needed that could eventually embrace the neshama - the soul of humanity - and dinosaurs were not heading in that direction. Perhaps mammals would.

This isn't really a scientific argument but a theological one. I don't really agree with it though. For one thing some dinosaurs were getting smarter. There was a small type of predatory dinosaur called Troodon which was human sized and was 'brainier' than other dinosaurs. It had potential to evolve to be smarter (or less smart) if there had been more time and the right selective pressures. Schroeder seems to think that G-d was using evolution as a trial-and-error system of creating a body for a person's neshama. I don't personally believe that G-d has errors. I think that the human
form was planned from the beginning. Troodon dinosaurs had potential but were not ultimately meant to be. All this is theological though, and since Shroeder and I don't even share the same religion, we're bound to disagree on points like that.

He says dinosaurs raise two basic theological questions. The first of them has to do with the Biblical age of the universe. He goes on to explain how he synchronizes this with the fossil record. I don't really have too much of a problem with how he rationalizes this except that I don't personally think that it needs to be synched up. In my opinion the days and what happens on them are symbolic and have symbolic meanings. Since I'm not a theologian and I
don't read the original languages then it's hard for me to know precisely why the language was used in Genesis/Bereshit or what its symbolic meaning was. So that's for philosophers and theologians to figure out.

The second question he discusses why G-d destroyed part of his creation (the dinosaurs) when he could have created the world in such a way that this was not necessary and the implications this has over G-d's control of nature. Personally I think it has to do with the entire environment influencing the evolution of all the animals in it. If G-d's will was to produce humans from mammals, then the other creatures alive at that time would have influenced the environment
that the early mammals were in. A different step required a different environment. Again this is all theological, not scientific.

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Life appears first on day three ((Genesis 1:11), immediately after liquid water formed on earth (Gen. 1:10). This immediate conjunction of water and life had, for decades, evolutionary biologists rolling in the aisles with laughter. All life on earth is water based. No water, no life.

This doesn't even make sense. he says life appeared AFTER liquid water. So the "no water, no life", doesn't follow. Obviously if life appeared after water, then there was water there for water-based life. Either he's badly quoting his opponents' arguments, which is likely, or he doesn't know how to make his points very clear.

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Conventional wisdom was that billions of years passed in which random reactions changed rocks and water in living organisms.

That doesn't sound right the way he describes it. There are chemical reactions which can lead to formation of the building blocks of life, such as amino acids, etc. from non-living materials, some of which are found in rocks and water, but he's making it sound like scientists claim that rocks and water just spontaneously started spitting out cells. It's a more complex process than that. And it's not really random reactions. There was a selective process at work. Early nucleotides lead to things like RNA and DNA and some of those formed into life using cells as survival machines. Others used just a simple protein coat or something of that nature and became things like viruses.

 
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The laughter was swallowed when in the 1970's Prof. E. Barghoorn and Stanley Tyler discovered micro-fossils of bacteria and algae in chert rocks (a form of silicon dioxide once considered an unlikely source of fossils) 3.6 billion years old, just after the time when oceans and dry land formed on earth. Genesis was correct all along. Life appeared very rapidly, not after billions of years.

Genesis doesn't say anything about whether you're going to find fossils in those rocks or not. Only his convoluted explanation of "days" of Genesis is tailor made to fit in with that. Also he acts like it was scientists versus the Bible when in reality it was the scientists discovering more evidence to refine the known science, and really the Bible never said anything one way or another about whether those fossils would be found.

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But note that on day three, the word "creation" does not appear. The first life was not specially created.
The universe was equipped for life from its inception. It was organization that was needed, organization that could produce the phenomenally intricate functioning of life's genetic map: DNA, RNA, amino acids, the bio-chemical sources of energy ATP. How that organization occurred in a geological blink of an eye remains an enigma to the scientific community.

Notice here he admits abiogenesis is valid. That part is true. He even directly states that "the first life was not specially created". He then goes on to say that how the organization occurred is "an enigma to the scientific community". What's his point in stating this last part? Is he trying to imply special creation of the first life AFTER he just said "the first life was not specially created?" Which one is it?

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Life remains microscopic for three billion years, and then in a burst of animal forms, known as the Cambrian explosion, every basic animal body plan (the 34 animal phyla)
extant today appeared in the fossil record. Animals with jointed bodies, limbs, eyes (with lenses), swarmed in the seas. There was not a hint of this impending proliferation
in the underlying fossils.

What is he implying here? That these phyla were specially created? That they POOFED into existence? Soft bodied ancestors of these creatures might not have left very many fossils, that's one point. Another
point is that if they rapidly evolved, geologically speaking, that there may not have been enough time for a lot of fossils to be left behind on top of that.
We always have to remember that whatever we do have of the fossil record is incomplete. The other point he fails to mention is that just because all the modern phyla were present doesn't mean very many modern creatures themselves were present.

Humans, cats, elephants, snakes, birds, frogs, and sea squirts are all in the same 'phylum' Chordata's most primitive members don't resemble any of the animals you're familiar with but look more like this:
Here kitty kitty!

Rest of the article coming tomorrow.

Offline edu

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Re: NASA specialist fired because he believes in intelligent design
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2012, 03:19:07 AM »
Dan Ben Noah stated:
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If someone believes the earth had a designer, then they are going to believe that G-d was involved at some point in the process.  Beliefs as to where and how closely He was involved vary greatly among believers.  These believers may not know the exact ins and outs of how atheists have defined their theology in order to make excuses to push them out of the scientific community, they just believe in an intelligent designer.  If you take that irreducible complexity to its logical extention, it would ultimately rule out G-d at any point because the spiritual interacting with the physical falls into what we would call miraculous (or magic as you call it).  But we know that people who believe in G-d can still be good scientists.  There is no evidence that this man's belief even affects his work negatively, because he had already attained a high position before they fired him.  The agenda here is much more sinister than people advancing a Biblical belief.  The agenda here is atheists trying to erase all G-d-belief under the guise of science.  One of the steps to achieving that agenda is for the atheists to define on their terms the level of G-d-belief someone can have to qualify as a scientist, and then just keep merging the terms with atheism.
Dan Ben Noah seems to be correct. Although, I do not know all the facts of what took place that led to the firing of the scientist, and I am relying on Dan that he, indeed,  supplied all the relevant facts.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: NASA specialist fired because he believes in intelligent design
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2012, 07:20:11 AM »
If someone believes the earth had a designer, then they are going to believe that G-d was involved at some point in the process.  Beliefs as to where and how closely He was involved vary greatly among believers.

That's ok. Where the ID advocates go wrong is in trying to demonstrate or prove God's involvement. I think this is something that needs to be taken on faith and not something you can demonstrate or prove.

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These believers may not know the exact ins and outs of how atheists have defined their theology in order to make excuses to push them out of the scientific community, they just believe in an intelligent designer.

I don't really know what you mean by this. Atheists don't have theology. Believing in an intelligent designer isn't a bad thing. I believe in that too. I don't think anyone should be pushed out of the scientific community for just that.

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If you take that irreducible complexity to its logical extention, it would ultimately rule out G-d at any point because the spiritual interacting with the physical falls into what we would call miraculous (or magic as you call it).

I brought up irreducible complexity because it's an argument used by ID advocates to support ID, and I was talking about how it had been debunked. So I'm not sure what taking it to its logical extension would be.

I think it's ok to believe that miracles can happen, but science requires methodological naturalism. You can't just insert miracles wherever you have a problem that's too hard to solve. If you can't figure out what's making someone sick for example you don't finally give up and just say demons are causing it and give that as your scientific answer. You keep searching for a natural reason why the person is sick.

If you find something that you don't know how it could have possibly evolved, then you don't just say "Goddidit" and smile and think how smart and scientific you are. You do further investigation.

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But we know that people who believe in G-d can still be good scientists.  There is no evidence that this man's belief even affects his work negatively, because he had already attained a high position before they fired him.  The agenda here is much more sinister than people advancing a Biblical belief.  The agenda here is atheists trying to erase all G-d-belief under the guise of science.  One of the steps to achieving that agenda is for the atheists to define on their terms the level of G-d-belief someone can have to qualify as a scientist, and then just keep merging the terms with atheism.

I'm on the guy's side as far as the fact he should not have been fired. I agree with you that there's a persecution of religious people and that it seems like many of the people in the scientific community look down on anyone who sincerely holds to religious beliefs, especially if those are Bible-based beliefs. I used to chat with a group of atheists and agnostics on a regular basis and the kinds of things they would say about believers was just appalling.  I think that atheists often misuse science to try to shame or harm religious people, and that's obviously not a good thing.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: NASA specialist fired because he believes in intelligent design
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2012, 08:06:12 AM »
Here's what I thought I should respond to in the rest of the article Mord, let me know if I missed anything important:

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Order out of chaos is a sequence rarely if ever achieved by random reactions,

I don't think any scientist claims that evolution is random.

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and stable order is never achieved unless that order is locked into place by the system itself. The six sentences reveal little of how this flow occurred. But the episodes following the six days provide insight into G-d's method of earthly management.

G-d places Adam and Eve in Eden. They fail their test and are expelled. G-d could have stopped them from eating the forbidden fruit but chose not to. First Cain and then Abel brought offerings to G-d. G-d accepted Abel's and rejected Cain's and then tells Cain to control his emotions (Gen. 4:6). Immediately (the very next sentence) Cain murders Abel. G-d allowed Cain to murder Abel, and then exiles Cain as punishment. G-d could have stopped the murder but chose not to. Just ten generations after Adam, the world had become so degenerate and corrupt that the Bible tells us that G-d regretted having made mankind ( Gen. 6:7). In Biblical language, G-d has regrets! G-d could have re-directed the course of humanity much earlier but chose not to, allowing the situation to worsen till all hope was lost.

Following the flood, longevity gradually decreases from its pre-flood value of 900 years to the 90 or so years we know today. Clearly the 900 year life span for humans was a failed experiment. Ninety years seems to be working a bit better. Wasn't it clear to G-d from the start that 900 years would not be an effective life span?

In the Book of Exodus, G-d is encouraging the Israelites in their planned conquest of Canaan. "And I will send the hornet before you to drive out [the enemy]. I will not drive them out in one year lest the land be desolate and the beasts of the field multiply against you" (Ex. 23:28, 29). What?? G-d can control the hornets but the beasts are a bit too strong for G-d to control? Of course not. G-d controls and releases control at will, according to divine plan, not necessarily according to our limited logic.

Interesting theological points. I believe that G-d can step in when its suits Him, such as when He was sending the plagues to Egypt, but these kinds of things are anomalies. They're not how the universe usually works. More usually, G-d lets things run their course. I also believe in miracles but don't think that they're a go-to problem solver for scientific questions.

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G-d creates and then develops the world over six days. Put yourself in the mindset, not of today, but of 3,000 years ago, in the era of the giving of the Torah on Sinai. At that ancient time, six days was not seen as too short a period for this Genesis, it was too long! Why should an infinite G-d require six days. Why not an instantaneous, ready-made universe? The message is that G-d works through nature and nature takes time.

I like this point. I think this might be a good way to demonstrate, theologically, that G-d prefers to work through the created processes that are already in place most of the time. It doesn't demonstrate it scientifically, but it does make a good theological argument in my opinion.

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In the entire account of Genesis chapter one, the creation chapter, the only name of G-d used is Elokim. Elokim is the biblical name for G-d as made manifest in nature. Working through nature allows the world to appear natural, thus allowing human free will to follow or not to follow the Torah.

I would agree with the idea that G-d's apparent absence allows for free will. At the same time, this is precisely why I disagree with most of what ID advocates say. I don't think that G-d or miracles can be scientifically demonstrated or proven precisely because G-d wants people to have free will and requires that people who believe use faith to do so.

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Isaiah describes what the act of creation is from a Godly view point: "I am the Eternal, there is nothing else. I form light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil ..." (Isaiah 45:6.7). The source of all light creates darkness. How? By withdrawing some of the light. Similarly, the source of peace, harmony, creates evil by withdrawing some of the peace. The Biblical word, creation, implies a partial withdrawal of G-d's overt infinite control. In Hebrew the concept is tsimtsum.

The creation described in Genesis 1:1 implies that G-d withdrew part of G-d's undifferentiated unity and allowed physical complexity to appear: time, space, matter, the laws of nature. The creation of animals (Gen. 1:21) relates to the creation of the soul of animals, the nefesh in Hebrew, and gives animals the ability to choose, to learn how to manipulate a maze. The creation of Adam (Gen. 1:27) grants a further divine pull back, allowing us free will, the soul of humanity, the neshama in Hebrew.

G-d chose to give a leeway to the system. In this light the rise and fall of the dinosaurs becomes understandable in the divine scheme for life. Life, designed by Divine input, produced an array of animals, included therein were the dinosaurs. But their dominance was off the Divine course. In a manner reminiscent of the flood destroying the 900 year longevity gene pool and replacing it with 90 year life spans, the destruction of the dinosaurs opened space for mammals, and eventually humans, to thrive. All of these examples are of micro (not macro-) evolution, small changes in existing body plans.

I do have a problem with this. There is no real, true distinction between micro and macro evolution. Microevolution is about small changes, like a tongue being 1% longer, or a coat of fur being 1% thicker, etc. but these very same changes add up over time to produce greater total changes. To say you accept one and not the other is like saying that you accept that a woman in the first trimester of pregnancy is micropregnant and in the third trimester is macropregnant but you only believe in micropregnancy.

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Was G-d bound to allow dinosaurs to appear? Certainly not, but G-d chose to limit overt control to key junctures. Similarly G-d could control the beasts just as G-d controlled the hornets but chose not to. The divinely created laws of nature are adequate to set the path. Even when the path is being directed, usually the insertion of direct control is in a way that can be interpreted as natural. The option for free will is maintained.

Good point here I agree. I don't think any "direct control" can be demonstrated if it occurs and should not be offered up as a scientific explanation though.

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Neo-Darwinian evolutionary theory calls out for randomness to set the course of life's development.

Only the new genetic material is random. The process itself however is NOT random. It's a selective process. If a genetic change occurs which enhances survivability (until reproduction) then it will have a better chance of being spread through a population than a genetic change which causes early death. Natural selection isn't random, it's the opposite of random.

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Evolution, Bible style, also sees life develop from the simple (day three and day five) to the highly complex (humanity on day six), but realizes that in this world, random reactions are simply not up to accomplishing that task. Random reactions alone simply do not and can not produce stable order. That is the lesson of the laws of thermodynamics.

The second law of thermodynamics only applies to closed systems. Things in nature get more complex through natural processes alone, like the formation of ice crystals or snow flakes. That's a natural process that produces complexity from relative chaos. Yet he's not saying that snow flakes are impossible.


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    Answer d, the word creation is not mentioned at the origin of life on day 3. The implication is that universe is made for life, built into the fabric of existence from the very the beginning.

I agree with it but don't think it can be proven.

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    According to the fossil record, after the formation of liquid water on earth, the first life on earth appeared:
        rapidly
        after billions of years of gradual evolution

    Answer a. This discovery, only made in the mid-1970's, has forced a complete change in the attempt to describe life's beginnings by totally random processes.

They weren't "totally random".

Offline Rubystars

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Re: NASA specialist fired because he believes in intelligent design
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2012, 08:10:28 AM »
Dan Ben Noah stated: Dan Ben Noah seems to be correct. Although, I do not know all the facts of what took place that led to the firing of the scientist, and I am relying on Dan that he, indeed,  supplied all the relevant facts.

I don't think the guy should have been fired either.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: NASA specialist fired because he believes in intelligent design
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2012, 08:59:29 PM »
Anyone who has an opinion on the spiritual has a theology.  It doesn't have to be a detailed theology, and it can be anti-theist, but that's still under the category of theology.  Atheists hold the opinion that there is no G-d, so this is their theology.  Now with this theological ideal, they have infiltrated the science community as well as the wider academic community--this is not exclusive to science but you see it in other areas such as history where atheists with academic degrees are trying to revise history in a way that demonizes G-d's people.   As part of this agenda they are trying to get a stranglehold on the scientific community in order to pass off as fact that science proves there is no G-d and that there must always be an underlying assumption that there is no G-d.

Atheists often do have an anti-religious agenda. I've heard some of them describe themselves as simply lacking a belief in God. Others however say they have a positive belief that there is no God and they firmly think they know this to be true. The latter type are usually the more militant ones. Richard Dawkins is a good example. He thinks that science leaves absolutely no room for someone to hold any faith-based beliefs in addition to it and he promotes this idea as the only right way to think. Anyone who has faith is said by those types of atheists to be simply being illogical and even a little bit crazy. I've even seen atheists discussing why it is some people have the mental disorder of theism, as if they think that we're just hallucinating if we have spiritual experiences, or that we're talking to ourselves or to an imaginary friend when we pray. Yet, at the same time, they don't see homosexuality as a disorder. It's really an odd philosophy and it can lead to all kinds of evil rationalizations. Peter Singer for example embraces vegetarianism for the sake of animals but has no problem with infanticide.

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ID proponents, on the other hand, are not necessarily going out and trying to scientifically prove the existence of G-d, they are simply saying that the actual evidence we have does not point to an atheistic worldview.  If all scientists simply practiced science and did not inject their atheism into the equation, there would be no need for any ID movement.

I agree that if you look at the universe or nature, you can often infer design from it. I don't think this is the same thing as what many of them do though. Like I said before, it's a really fine distinction and it's hard to explain in such a way that it's not confusing. What many of them do is take that a step further and try to say that this or that process could not occur without some kind of Divine intervention, or that there are no natural explanations for it. That's when it becomes a problem.

When I see a beautiful landscape or see the stars glittering at night or learn about how big space is, I'm amazed at God's creation. I can't prove in any way that God is behind it (and I don't think anyone else can either). Like Schroeder said in that article, any evidence you might find that God is behind it could be interpreted as being natural.

In some ways this is frustrating because if you believe in God you'd like to be able to go out and show all the skeptics that you're right and that they're wrong, but there's no absolute way to do that. That's the way God set things up, for free will to be possible.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: NASA specialist fired because he believes in intelligent design
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2012, 06:34:33 AM »
Who invented 'Evaporation' or is it something which transcends time and space? Every chemical process, every state of matter, every particle was created by someone {or something}...

I didn't mean to ignore your post Muman so I'll respond now. I agree with you that God set the laws of nature up to begin with and is involved in guiding them. I don't think we can provide measurable evidence for this though so it's a theological area of study, or a matter of faith belief. It's not really within the realm of science.