Inviting non-Jews or non-Orthodox Jews to your Orthodox Seder- yes or no

[Former Reformed Jew]

Zev Brenner has a show on Seders tonight so I ask:
Is it OK to invite a non-Jew or a non-Orthodox Jew to your Orthodox Seder?
I say NO because it waters down a holy tradition to that of a reformed (deformed) act with no meaning.
What say the rest of the JTFers, esp. Chaim Ben Pesach.

[Rubystars]

Why would a non-Jew want to be at a Jewish religious event? That makes no sense to me.

[muman613]

Zev Brenner has a show on Seders tonight so I ask:
Is it OK to invite a non-Jew or a non-Orthodox Jew to your Orthodox Seder?
I say NO because it waters down a holy tradition to that of a reformed (deformed) act with no meaning.
What say the rest of the JTFers, esp. Chaim Ben Pesach.

Actually you should invite some non-Orthodox Jews to your seder. Did you ever learn about the four sons? The Jewish people are not monolithic and we all dont believe the same exact thing (except for the basic 13 principles there is a lot of disagreement and different interpretations). Pesach is a time when we all should work together. And what good is talking about the evil son when there are no people who represent that son?

http://ohr.edu/805

The Torah refers to four sons: One wise, one wicked, one simple and one who does not know how to ask a question. What does the wise son say? "What are the testimonials, statutes and laws Hashem our G-d commanded you?" You should tell him about the laws of Pesach, that one may eat no dessert after eating the Pesach offering.

What does the wicked son say? "What does this drudgery mean to you?" To you and not to him. Since he excludes himself from the community, he has denied a basic principle of Judaism. You should blunt his teeth by saying to him: "It is for the sake of this that Hashem did for me when I left Egypt. For me and not for him. If he was there he would not have been redeemed."

What does the simple son say? "What's this?" You should say to him "With a strong hand Hashem took me out of Egypt, from the house of servitude."

And the one who does not know how to ask, you start for him, as the Torah says: "And you should tell your son on that day, saying 'It is for the sake of this that Hashem did for me when I left Egypt.'"

See also : http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/110518/jewish/Torah-Studies-3-The-Fifth-Son.htm

PS: Remember to Push away with your left hand while pulling in with your right hand...


http://www.inner.org/holidays/sukot/E68-0118a.php

http://www.torah.org/learning/mlife/LORch4-2b.html

Last week I quoted the Talmud which in two places (Sotah 47a and Sanhedrin 107b) states as follows: One should always push away with his left while drawing close with his right -- i.e., never push away the sinful too strongly, unlike Elisha, who did so to Gehazi or R. Yehoshua ben Perachia, who did so to "one of his students" -- i.e., Jesus.

]

[muman613]

Also remember all the commandments which oblige a religious Jew to love his neighbor. This means that we should not judge fellow Jews too harshly. Not everyone is on the same level as you or I, and some are at higher levels and we don't want to be judged for our lack of commandments compared to them. Thus there is much written about giving the fellow Jew the benefit of the doubt. I am talking about the Benoni, the average Jew who has merits through doing mitzvahs yet he also has done aveirahs/transgressions of the commandments. Most of us here are Benonis/Average Jews who have things in our past {on in the present} which are not fully up to 'code' according to Jewish belief. It took me a long time to become more Kosher in my house. When I started teshuva I knew that eventually I would be kosher. But there are aspects of Kosher law which I am still struggling with... Does this make me evil? Does this make me worthless? NO, because we all are coming back from a position of impurity.

http://www.chabad.org/holidays/passover/pesach_cdo/aid/1777/jewish/All-Who-Are-Hungry.htm

All who are hungry, come and eat...

That invitation is not intended for outsiders. We are inviting ourselves and the people around us to really be present at the Seder. While we may be sitting at the table, our minds can be miles away. But then we may miss out on the most powerful spiritual journey - the Seder.

Each one of us is hungry, and we are all needy. We have a soul that hungers for nourishment and inspiration, and we all feel a profound need for our inner self to be freely expressed. Our soul yearns to love, to give, to contribute to the world and to connect to G-d. But our soul is sometimes trapped, surrounded by obstacles to its being free - scars from the past that cripple us; fears that prevent us from opening our hearts; bad habits that waste our time and divert our energy; toxic relationships that we have become dependant on; negative attitudes that darken our vision; egotism and complacency that stunt our growth.

We are stuck in our own inner Egypt, with these internal slave-masters holding us back from becoming who we are supposed to be. Like Pharaoh of old, our ego doesn't want to let us go. Even as we sit down to the Seder to read the story of the Israelite Exodus from slavery, we are still slaves.

PS: I don't know about non-Jews attending a seder unless they are considering conversion. According to the Torah the un-circumcised could not eat the Pesach offering...

[muman613]

I have a question for you former reformed jew....

What is your story? Now that you have decided to embrace Judaism I assume you have found an Orthodox shul and daven regularly with the minyan. I am interested in what brought about your teshuva?

[edu]

There is an issue of Jewish law that one has to be aware of.
Unlike the Sabbath, on Yom Tov one is permitted to cook food, under certain conditions,
which I will not describe here.
However, one is not really allowed to cook on Yom Tov, for the benefit of
a non-religious Jew nor for the benefit of a non-Jew. [The Rabbis have derived this from their analysis of the Biblical text].
Therefore halacha discourages one in normal situations from inviting those individuals
as guests specifically on Yom Tov, (when Yom Tov doesn't fall on the Sabbath) because it might lead you to cook on their behalf. However, some Rabbis have found ways to solve the problem.
For example, my rabbi allows me to invite non-religious guests for Yom Tov, if I resolve to do all the cooking ahead of time and none on Yom Tov. In order to draw the non-religious Jews to Judaism, he would even encourage me in many (but not all) situations to make use of this leniency.
Other rabbis  offer additional solutions.
Just bringing this issue up, if for some reason you have a strong reason for wanting to invite non-orthodox or non-Jews. This year the first day of Passover falls on Sabbath.
Another issue to be raised with a Rabbi, is that some Gentiles for one reason or another become so impressed with the idea of the Seder, that they themselves start practicing some warped form of a Seder, each year. Even  President Obama is doing this, at least while he's in the White House.
You have to ask a Rabbi if encouraging such type of behavior is a good thing or a bad thing.
Conclusion: If I haven't made myself clear the question of who to invite to the Seder is too delicate, to give a straight yes or no answer in an internet forum.

[Former Reformed Jew]

I have a question for you former reformed jew....

What is your story? Now that you have decided to embrace Judaism I assume you have found an Orthodox shul and daven regularly with the minyan. I am interested in what brought about your teshuva?

Jewish Task Force
I always thought that all Jews were Woody Allen Jews.
When I saw Chaim Ben Pesach and Yitzhak Ben Shlomo on QPTV, I said, "I am home".  But it was a long process.
Yitzhak Ben Shlomo was the most talented broadcasting partner that Chaim has ever had.  Does anybody remember him?

[Former Reformed Jew]

Also remember all the commandments which oblige a religious Jew to love his neighbor. This means that we should not judge fellow Jews too harshly. Not everyone is on the same level as you or I, and some are at higher levels and we don't want to be judged for our lack of commandments compared to them. Thus there is much written about giving the fellow Jew the benefit of the doubt. I am talking about the Benoni, the average Jew who has merits through doing mitzvahs yet he also has done aveirahs/transgressions of the commandments. Most of us here are Benonis/Average Jews who have things in our past {on in the present} which are not fully up to 'code' according to Jewish belief. It took me a long time to become more Kosher in my house. When I started teshuva I knew that eventually I would be kosher. But there are aspects of Kosher law which I am still struggling with... Does this make me evil? Does this make me worthless? NO, because we all are coming back from a position of impurity.

http://www.chabad.org/holidays/passover/pesach_cdo/aid/1777/jewish/All-Who-Are-Hungry.htm


PS: I don't know about non-Jews attending a seder unless they are considering conversion. According to the Torah the un-circumcised could not eat the Pesach offering...

What about non-Jews who are close family and are righteous gentiles and even Noahides?

[Zelhar]

Why would a non-Jew want to be at a Jewish religious event? That makes no sense to me.

If for no other reason, then for the food of course. The Seder is after all a rather fancy meal. And as far as I am aware,  from halachic stand point, it is perfectly fine for gentiles to attend the Seder just as they can attend the Shabbat meal.

Now if you want a real world scenario, I have family members who are married to gentiles. The gentile spouse and children are definitely not Christian but they aren't Jewish by halacha. But they celebrate in a secular way the Seder.

[Rubystars]

Thanks for the explanation Zelhar. That's less confusing now.

[Dr. Dan]

Why not?

[Former Reformed Jew]

Why not?

Because to break the whole thing down and explain it in English and to the uninitiated is like having a reformed (deformed) service.  It becomes like a party more than a solemn religious ceremony and non-Jews and non-Orthodox Jews look at an Orthodox seder with derision as they do the rest of Orthodox Torah Judaism.

[muman613]

Because to break the whole thing down and explain it in English and to the uninitiated is like having a reformed (deformed) service.  It becomes like a party more than a solemn religious ceremony and non-Jews and non-Orthodox Jews look at an Orthodox seder with derision as they do the rest of Orthodox Torah Judaism.

This is not true. Not all non-Orthodox Jews look at Judaism like this. I am sorry if that is your experience but it is not mine.

The duty of any religious Jew is to present Judaism as something to be embraced and it can only be done by having a Seder which is memorable and enjoyable. I think you are looking at the situation in the wrong way. The purpose of the Seder is not for ourselves, it is for the others, to bring them closer. Basically Pesach is a Holiday where we are commanded to teach the children about our heritage. 'Children' can be youngsters or it can also be Jews who have been detached from their heritage.

I think it is very important to open our houses on Pesach in order to pass on the heritage to all Jews.... Orthodox and other labels are just that, labels which cause division...

Indeed there are Jews who have gone so far off the derech there is no reason for them to attend a Seder... But basically we should not shut off a Jew from Pesach unless he is an apikoris or an enemy of the Jewish people.

[Dr. Dan]

Because to break the whole thing down and explain it in English and to the uninitiated is like having a reformed (deformed) service.  It becomes like a party more than a solemn religious ceremony and non-Jews and non-Orthodox Jews look at an Orthodox seder with derision as they do the rest of Orthodox Torah Judaism.

I'm sorry but not everyone can understand Hebrew or complicated Jewish texts.  You are way off in this one.  We should be a light unto nations and not a secretive cult if we were to have it your way, which is more destructive.

And a sedar that is partly done in a different language for translation reasons doesn't diminish the message.

[muman613]

Once again I refer to the Passover Hagadah and the lesson we learn from the Four Sons...

Here this is discussed:

http://www.jewishmag.com/122mag/passover-haggadah/haggadah.pdf

The second son, called the ‘wicked one’, says "What does this service means to you?" excluding himself. He represents those Jews throughout the ages who have denied their Jewishness, who have become self hating and Anti-Semitic Jews, who take every opportunity of denigrating, abusing, slandering and heaping scorn on their own flesh and blood and by extension their own parents and grandparents, and on Eretz Yisrael and its renewal. It also includes those who have deliberately renounced their heritage by adopting other religions, many because they did not have the moral fibre to be separate, or for personal advancement, and who may have said “why swim against the tide let us join the majority among whom we live”.

They are as guilty as the spies Moses sent to spy out the land, (Num. Chs. 13 and 14) who came back and frightened the people in the desert with their tales of the savagery of the inhabitants of the Land of Canaan, condemning them to spend 40 years wandering in the wilderness, until their descendants toughened by those 40 years in the wilderness and born free without any memory of the Ghetto like existence of their slave years in Egypt were able to eventually go up and conquer the Holy Land.

To these people, the author of the Haggadah says give them a sharp answer, disown them, and cut them off from the Jewish people.

The third son, “the simple” one, represents the one who is unlearned and makes no or very little effort to learn about Judaism. In this category are those who have neglected or abandoned the commandments either by laxity or laziness or by rationalizing that many of the commandments no longer apply or are out of place in modern society. Perhaps denying the sanctity of the basic laws and customs of Judaism, such as kashrut, the dietary laws, the sanctity of Shabbat and the Festivals and the distinctiveness of Jewish family life.

To him we say "with a strong hand did the Almighty bring us out of Egypt and slavery". In other words it is only by acknowledgment of the fact that the unity of the Jewish people can only be kept by adherence to the commandments of the Torah can we continue as an identifiable nation. It is interesting to consider that Judaism has always been ‘out of step’ with ‘modern’ society. When society worshipped idols, Abraham did not, when society condoned murder and theft, Judaism did and does not. When society accepts immorality and licentiousness Judaism does not. What the Torah advocates is a society and civilization that would keep the world from excesses in which every man would live at peace and harmony with his neighbour and in which man would “beat his swords into ploughshares and pruning hooks”, (Micah Ch..4 V. 3)

To summarize my position:

1) I grant the benefit of the doubt to the 'average' Jew.
2) Unless a Jew has openly and wantonly desecrated Hashems name I am willing to overlook his/her transgression.
3) I believe that through extending Chesed/Kindess and doing Kiruv/Outreach we can affect the vast majority of the 'Average' Jews.
4) Doing an open Passover Seder is a way to bring in those Jews who are in danger of losing their heritage.
5) By performing the mitzvot in a public way, beautifying the mitvot so that those who witness the observance of the commandments are filled with awe and respect of our Holy Torah.
6) I have witnessed the success of this approach.

[muman613]

Former Reformed Jew is not an Orthodox Jew, he's been posting during Shabbat.

Unfortunate.... Todays Shabbat portion contained the source for the Halachas concerning Melachot, or creative labor, which is forbidden on Shabbat...

http://www.chabad.org/blogs/blog_cdo/aid/855169/jewish/VAYAKHEL-PEKUDEI-Kindling-Fire-on-the-Sabbath.htm

...
Rabbi Adam Mintz Responds:

Joel, this week you have addressed the basis of the principle of "Rest on Shabbat" and how that same principle that was introduced in the desert over three thousand years ago is still relevant today. It is a gigantic topic and I will try to discuss some of the basic ideas. The translation of melachah (the term used by the Torah to describe the activities proscribed on Shabbat) as "work" is overly simplistic. This week's Torah reading is actually the basis for the derivation of the 39 types of activity that are forbidden on Shabbat. The Talmud comments on the juxtaposition of the laws of Shabbat and the description of the building of the Tabernacle at the beginning of the reading. It derives that the reason that these two seemingly unrelated laws are written next to one another is to teach that the 39 categories of work that were used in the building of the Tabernacle are the same 39 categories of work that are forbidden on Shabbat.

...

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

בס''ד

Of course, we can invite non-religious Jews to the seder. Of the four sons who ask questions, one is actually described as "rasha" (wicked). The seder is aimed at informing, enlightening and awakening the Jews who attend.

Yes, we can also invite non-Jews. Certainly bnei Noach.

Now this does not mean that we should do what the leftist traitors do - they invite Arab Jew-haters, black Jew-haters, Muslims and other enemies to the seder.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Zev Brenner has a show on Seders tonight so I ask:
Is it OK to invite a non-Jew or a non-Orthodox Jew to your Orthodox Seder?
I say NO because it waters down a holy tradition to that of a reformed (deformed) act with no meaning.
What say the rest of the JTFers, esp. Chaim Ben Pesach.

The seder is run by you, so why would it be deformed.  Go ahead and invite the reform Jew and show him what being a Jew is all about.   Get him/them interested in real Judaism.  Not sure why you would invite a nonJew though.

[Former Reformed Jew]

The seder is run by you, so why would it be deformed.  Go ahead and invite the reform Jew and show him what being a Jew is all about.   Get him/them interested in real Judaism.  Not sure why you would invite a nonJew though.

Your last sentence makes my point.  It then becomes a party without religious meaning, a way to impress your husband's boss, your in-laws, inviting the schwartze maid etc. vanity.  Totally secular.  Let them see it on youtube and cook it themselves.  If it is a close family member, grandma or mama and you don't want to hurt their feelings by excluding them, then okay.  Judaism should not be a weapon to engender intrafamilial ill-will.  But there should be a cap on non-Jews to those who really want to be there who are really interested in the ceremony and are righteous.  If not, let them go to McDonald's.

[JTFenthusiast2]

בס''ד

Of course, we can invite non-religious Jews to the seder. Of the four sons who ask questions, one is actually described as "rasha" (wicked). The seder is aimed at informing, enlightening and awakening the Jews who attend.

Yes, we can also invite non-Jews. Certainly bnei Noach.

Now this does not mean that we should do what the leftist traitors do - they invite Arab Jew-haters, black Jew-haters, Muslims and other enemies to the seder.

Chabad is an exemplar of this phenomenon.

[muman613]

Chabad is an exemplar of this phenomenon.

What do you mean by this? Chabad Seders have been traditional and fulfilling for all the years I have attended them. I am not sure if you are making a compliment or an insult in your reply...

[Dr. Dan]

What do you mean by this? Chabad Seders have been traditional and fulfilling for all the years I have attended them. I am not sure if you are making a compliment or an insult in your reply...

It's definitely a compliment.  He's saying Chabad has been awesome about showing less religious Jews what the Pesach seder is about.

[muman613]

It's definitely a compliment.  He's saying Chabad has been awesome about showing less religious Jews what the Pesach seder is about.

Thank you... I was leaning toward believing that but the last paragraph (of Chaims response) threw some question into my mind.

[JTFenthusiast2]

It's definitely a compliment.  He's saying Chabad has been awesome about showing less religious Jews what the Pesach seder is about.

Exactly Dr. Dan

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Your last sentence makes my point.  It then becomes a party without religious meaning, a way to impress your husband's boss, your in-laws, inviting the schwartze maid etc. vanity.  Totally secular.  Let them see it on youtube and cook it themselves.  If it is a close family member, grandma or mama and you don't want to hurt their feelings by excluding them, then okay.  Judaism should not be a weapon to engender intrafamilial ill-will.  But there should be a cap on non-Jews to those who really want to be there who are really interested in the ceremony and are righteous.  If not, let them go to McDonald's.

Huh?  I honestly have no idea how anything you said here relates to anything I wrote.   I asked YOU why you would invite a nonJew.  You respond saying that I told you to impress your boss?
My advice was DO A REAL SEDER which anyone can experience no matter who they are.  If its somehow not religious, then you are doing it wrong. The seder if done properly is by definition religious.  And its a real experience that secular Jews can appreciate and understand.  They are perfectly capable of getting the same experiential joy that we religious Jews get from the very same seder tradition.